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View Full Version : How does one legally defend themselves in California?


himurax13
05-04-2010, 5:48 PM
I have noticed that nearly anything that could be used to defend yourself outside the home has been deemed "Illegal" in this wonderful state of ours. Not everyone has the time, money, or physical capability to enroll in a self defense class. So instead of wasting time trying to figure what is illegal, what praytell can someone use to legally defend themselves with when they are not at home?

professorhard
05-04-2010, 5:49 PM
In CA, they just expect you to die.

ojisan
05-04-2010, 6:01 PM
Seems like us lowly civilians are down to just pepper spray, but only if less than 2 ounces, so your aim better be good and your assailant(s) unarmed.

Yes there are single-shot civilian tasers but they are expensive and they won't sell to everyone. You can't buy a reload without a copy of the incident police report, either.

You are correct, your life and mine are worthless in the eyes of our government.
Nice, comforting thought, isn't it?

Window_Seat
05-04-2010, 6:17 PM
TaserC2 (http://www.itaser.com/?__utma=1.2139354645.1273025460.1273025460.1273025 460.1&__utmb=1.2.10.1273025460&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1273025460.1.1.utmcsr=google|utmccn=(orga nic)|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=taser%20international&__utmv=-&__utmk=147415735)

Olight SR90 Intimidator (http://www.batteryjunction.com/olight-sr90-intimidator.html)

These are just a few options that I have looked into taking advantage of (until they ban them for use of SD).

Erik.

Silencer
05-04-2010, 6:21 PM
Carry a handbag with a brick in it. Though, that's probably illegal, too.

advocatusdiaboli
05-04-2010, 6:31 PM
The PRK considers legal citizens a hindrance and nuisance to the survival to many protected minorities who face extinction if state and federal laws are enforced. These species include: illegal aliens, gang members, PETA zealots and terrorists, underprivileged misunderstood criminals of non-white ethnicity, and misguided youthful thugs. If a civilian interferes with the predatory rights of any of these groups they can expect the full force of the law of the PRK to come down on them for endangering the civil rights and survival of these protected species. The goal is to simply give these endangered and protected groups the supportive environment they need to survive. Your survivors will have their hearts warmed to know your sacrifice helped an endangered species survivor another day. The police will arrive after the event to document and catalogue your contribution for posterity.

ned946
05-04-2010, 6:35 PM
I posted your query on another web site.
I got back,

"Smart wit, cutting sarcasm and good running shoes"

9-12
05-04-2010, 6:38 PM
You make sure there are no whitnesses.

sniper5
05-04-2010, 6:41 PM
If you die or get beaten, raped or robbed, it justifies more money for police to combat crime and increased funding for trauma centers, rape counsellors, psychiatrists, therapists, insurance companies, more laws etc. If the police save you, it has PR value for their department. If you live or defeat the criminal without anyone's assistance, you have no statistical value and are useless. Therefore it is better for you to be a victim.

The sad part is, it really isn't a joke.

wilit
05-04-2010, 6:53 PM
Carry a handbag with a brick in it. Though, that's probably illegal, too.

Not if the handbag holds less than 10 bricks and requires a tool to open it.

SxB
05-04-2010, 7:12 PM
Honesty, sadly, there is no way of really protecting yourself. I'd suggest getting into baseball or golf and always keeping your gear ( clubs or bats) in your vehicle. If you get attacked and your not around your vehicle hosestly, sadly there are only two options. Run. Or , stand and fight and risk either outcome. Outcome one, you fight well. You then get charged with battery and locked up until your court date or buy your way out 10-15k later. Outcome two, you don't fight so well. You end up with anything from a black eye to a toe tag. The perp gets locked up for x amount of time but, is that really justice? Jail for a true criminal isn't the worst thing ever but that's a separate thread entirely. Just my two cents.

SxB
05-04-2010, 7:16 PM
On second thought even with the clubs or bat your still spending some time in jail. So I guess it's like professorhard says in ca, they expect you to die.

Window_Seat
05-04-2010, 7:21 PM
If you die or get beaten, raped or robbed, it justifies more money for police to combat crime and increased funding for trauma centers, rape counsellors, psychiatrists, therapists, insurance companies, more laws etc. If the police save you, it has PR value for their department. If you live or defeat the criminal without anyone's assistance, you have no statistical value and are useless. Therefore it is better for you to be a victim.

The sad part is, it really isn't a joke.

Or in short & simple order... Job security for everyone.

Erik.

glockman19
05-04-2010, 7:31 PM
How does one legally defend themselves in California?

dial 911:rofl2:

ojisan
05-04-2010, 7:33 PM
Which is why the McDonald case before the Supremes is so important, and so much hinges on their decision.
Given a favorable decision, not only will we citizens (eventually, even here in CA) get a right to carry; to some degree, we get a right-to-fight-back-and-survive as well, since we now will have appropriate tools available to us that will make this possible.
Denying us the means of self-defense is the same as denying self-defense.

Given an unfavorable decision...I would rather not think of the implications.

The right to defend oneself is the most basic one in nature.
I'm looking forward to June 26th and a favorable SCOTUS decision.
On this day, perhaps, a citizen's life will be worth something again.

vantec08
05-04-2010, 7:44 PM
Politicians in CA are far too busy hustling the inner-city and white-guilt vote to give a whit what happens to you or me. As mentioned, if it doesnt have intrinsic value to milk politically, they couldnt care less about safety. I still remember di-fi standing at a podium, declaring that you and I "dont need a gun" to protect ourselves - - while surrounded by armed state police and FBI (never mind that SHE has ccw). The hypocrisy is astonishing, and seems to be what voters want.

gravedigger
05-04-2010, 8:21 PM
They won't allow me to carry a gun. Just as well. I don't have any room for one ... you know ... with the claw hammer, flask of gasoline and fireplace starter.

a1c
05-04-2010, 8:24 PM
Or you just move to the many rural counties where they grant CCW permits.

But you'd better have a line of work that's compatible with the location.

badicedog
05-04-2010, 8:30 PM
Seems like us lowly civilians are down to just pepper spray, but only if less than 2 ounces, so your aim better be good and your assailant(s) unarmed.

Yes there are single-shot civilian tasers but they are expensive and they won't sell to everyone. You can't buy a reload without a copy of the incident police report, either.

You are correct, your life and mine are worthless in the eyes of our government.
Nice, comforting thought, isn't it?

I had a discussion about pepper spray with some LEOs at work. Interesting enough one of the guys suggested keeping a can of WASP spray at home or in you trunk. It is in no way illegal since you can buy it at any grocery store or hardware store. The stream is pretty accurate up to 20 feet away and will blind you attacker until he gets treatment at a hospital. I was pretty surprised to hear this suggestion. Any thoughts???

sk8804
05-04-2010, 8:40 PM
I had a discussion about pepper spray with some LEOs at work. Interesting enough one of the guys suggested keeping a can of WASP spray at home or in you trunk. It is in no way illegal since you can buy it at any grocery store or hardware store. The stream is pretty accurate up to 20 feet away and will blind you attacker until he gets treatment at a hospital. I was pretty surprised to hear this suggestion. Any thoughts???

i would think that this would look worse in court because it contains poison, but maybe im crazy.

badicedog
05-04-2010, 8:44 PM
i would think that this would look worse in court because it contains poison, but maybe im crazy.

Hey we all live in this CRAZY state....lol:43:

Deadpool
05-04-2010, 8:45 PM
I wonder if anyone would stop you if you walked around with a tool belt on it that did hold a claw hammer. Hmmm, useless against a gun of course but in other scenarios could save your life.

advocatusdiaboli
05-04-2010, 9:01 PM
i would think that this would look worse in court because it contains poison, but maybe im crazy.

Officer, I bought it Home Depot to use at home and I'd been meaning to take it into the garage--just forgot. And when the attack happened, well, I just grabbed whatever I could to defend myself. wasn't really thinking about what was in it--just spraying.

Hoologan
05-04-2010, 9:03 PM
dial 911:rofl2:

Basically. When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

Carsgunsandchics
05-04-2010, 9:10 PM
The only legal way to defend yourself in California is with a Lawyer. Not a public defender but a "out of pocket Lawyer"

Chester
05-04-2010, 9:12 PM
I guess everyone here didn't read the articles on California law allowing someone to meet their attacker's advances with equal force up to and including the use of deadly force when they educated themselves on the legal use of their firearms regarding home and self defense.

I know you guys are just being facetious on what I also consider overzealous attempts of our government to control weapons in this state, but it's getting old. If you hate California so much, then GTFO like you keep promising to do.

... and that's how I feel about it.

berto
05-04-2010, 9:24 PM
A discussion about karma and the offer of a hug.

tenpercentfirearms
05-04-2010, 9:28 PM
I carry a Glock 27 or a Ruger LCP, a Surefire Defender, and a Gerber Pocket Knife. Well that is I carry all of that when I am not carrying this.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Taft-CA/Ten-Percent-Firearms/110449431519?v=app_2392950137&ref=ts#!/video/video.php?v=256138822145

Timberwolf
05-04-2010, 9:29 PM
Bulk up = I have found that people are less likely to screw with me now at 270 lbs than they did when I was a mere 170.

wilit
05-04-2010, 9:33 PM
I carry a Glock 27 or a Ruger LCP, a Surefire Defender, and a Gerber Pocket Knife. Well that is I carry all of that when I am not carrying this.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Taft-CA/Ten-Percent-Firearms/110449431519?v=app_2392950137&ref=ts#!/video/video.php?v=256138822145

Don't forget the tactical scooter for fast getaways.

misterjake
05-04-2010, 9:37 PM
I start to think about what I did wrong to push a man to impose harm on me. I guess he needs my wallet more than I do, I mean, maybe he has physical pains that makes it hard for him to work, or he grew up in a neighborhood that advocates violence, drugs and treating women like dirt. He is only attacking my wife because she's an attractive woman and gosh darnit, a man has his needs ya know?

I'm glad I live in a state that recognizes people who have been oppressed and were not given enough opportunity to succeed like a free public education, grants to go to college, free health care and a public monetary system that gives you a check for each child you have, I believe this system is called, "Welfare?"

In a way, I feel silly for having the wrong impression on how to "make it" in California, stupid me thought you had to work hard for things you wanted, treat people with respect and abide by the law.

I guess if it's my time then I guess I should go down quietly as not to disturb the system and cause any unwanted grief on the misunderstood man with a knife in my face.

fleegman
05-04-2010, 9:40 PM
Interesting enough one of the guys suggested keeping a can of WASP spray at home or in you trunk. It is in no way illegal...

Majorly WRONG. It is a FELONY to use wasp spray on someone.
Read the back label. The very first thing it says is "It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling".

That's why I just carry a loaded concealed gun if I feel the need; it's only a misdemeanor:)

SarcoBlaster
05-04-2010, 9:54 PM
Judged by 12 > carried by 6.

RomanDad
05-04-2010, 10:04 PM
I guess everyone here didn't read the articles on California law allowing someone to meet their attacker's advances with equal force up to and including the use of deadly force when they educated themselves on the legal use of their firearms regarding home and self defense.

I know you guys are just being facetious on what I also consider overzealous attempts of our government to control weapons in this state, but it's getting old. If you hate California so much, then GTFO like you keep promising to do.

... and that's how I feel about it.

There is a differnece between the RIGHT to defend oneself and the ABILITY to defend oneself.

I think the point is, you have a RIGHT to self defense (its in the State Constitution) but you are not allowed to carry the TOOLS of self defense in PUBLIC where you are most likely to need them.

So all the people above, who are carrying various deadly weapons in public, whereas they may be be legally allowed to USE them to defend themselves, that does not absolve them of the CRIMES of carrying them in the first place.

So yes.... you can theoretically use deadly force to defend yourself.... But unless you suffer from some sort of genetic mutation that causes your fingernails to become razor sharp claws that are capable of inflicting a cougar like blow to an attacker, Im not sure how you expect to actually defend yourself against an armed assailant with your theoretical rights....

Maybe you have invented some sort of teleporation device that can beam a pistol into my outstretched hands the moment the mugger threatens my safety... That would solve a LOT of problems.

"Stop Mr Mugger! You are causing me to fear for my life and I have the right to use deadly force!"
"Unless your rights are accompanied by a gun, I want your money or Im going to blow your rights all over the sidewalk."

JDoe
05-04-2010, 10:08 PM
I guess everyone here didn't read the articles on California law allowing someone to meet their attacker's advances with equal force up to and including the use of deadly force when they educated themselves on the legal use of their firearms regarding home and self defense.

I know you guys are just being facetious on what I also consider overzealous attempts of our government to control weapons in this state, but it's getting old. If you hate California so much, then GTFO like you keep promising to do.

... and that's how I feel about it.

Chester, the OP is asking how one legally defends themselves outside of the home. But I guess you didn't read that... :rolleyes:

ldivinag
05-04-2010, 10:35 PM
my story.

i was called into HR to talk to the head.

i was told i didnt have a right to self defense cause i was accused of having an illegal knife (it was a 3" folding knife from walmart).

i work for a pubic university in hayward...

glad i'm getting laid off from that hell hole...

cineski
05-04-2010, 10:51 PM
Strong pepper spray, stun gun, >3.5" folding knife. All completely legal to carry.

Brianguy
05-04-2010, 11:35 PM
I always carry a folder

destro360
05-05-2010, 12:09 AM
pepper spray works great... get a few cans use up one for practice to see how far and accurate it sprays. keep the others for your enemies. the best part about pepper spray is that in the eyes of the law you used non lethal means of "defusing a violent situation".. at least thats the line i use lol

SixtyDashOne
05-05-2010, 12:26 AM
Curl up into the fetal position on the floor and try to guard your head with your hands.

gravedigger
05-05-2010, 1:27 AM
... one of the guys suggested keeping a can of WASP spray at home or in you trunk. It is in no way illegal since you can buy it at any grocery store or hardware store. The stream is pretty accurate up to 20 feet away and will blind you attacker until he gets treatment at a hospital. I was pretty surprised to hear this suggestion. Any thoughts???

Carburetor cleaner with the plastic hose is also quite ... effective.

gravedigger
05-05-2010, 1:31 AM
Majorly WRONG. It is a FELONY to use wasp spray on someone.

Read the back label. The very first thing it says is "It is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling".



"But ... your honor! He swore he was a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant!"

BadIndianSwamp
05-05-2010, 5:45 AM
TaserC2 (http://www.itaser.com/?__utma=1.2139354645.1273025460.1273025460.1273025 460.1&__utmb=1.2.10.1273025460&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1273025460.1.1.utmcsr=google|utmccn=(orga nic)|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=taser%20international&__utmv=-&__utmk=147415735)

Erik.

+1 on the Taser C2.

It is, however, kind of an awkward design to hold and fire. I got one with the laser sight and put strips of skateboard tape to keep it from squirting out of my hand like a wet bar of soap

RomanDad
05-05-2010, 6:31 AM
pepper spray works great... get a few cans use up one for practice to see how far and accurate it sprays. keep the others for your enemies. the best part about pepper spray is that in the eyes of the law you used non lethal means of "defusing a violent situation".. at least thats the line i use lol
Pepper spray doesnt work great in all instances or against all people.

Ive been sprayed (both with pepper and CS) three times in my life.... It has very little effect on me. Yeah... It stings... And my eyes water... But not so much that I couldnt continue doing what I was doing... Ive seen other people who fall to the floor in a coughing vomiting pile of phlegm. Most people's reaction falls somewhere in between.

Also, Its pretty worthless on a windy day.... I used it once, and managed to spray.... MYSELF.... And thats all....

Not what I want to rely on when my life depends on it...

Decoligny
05-05-2010, 6:54 AM
Go to the doctor and complain about a sore knee. Have it documented in your medical records.

Then go out an buy a good stout cane to help with your sore knee.

Something like this.

http://superiormartialarts.com/images14/15007_oc%5B1%5D.jpg

Your intent was to use it to help you walk, but in the heat of the moment, if attacked, you could use it to defend yourself.

FatalKitty
05-05-2010, 8:34 AM
when it comes to defending my life, I'll take the jailtime if worse comes to worst - not going to risk having a stick dropped, taken out of my hands, or a thug that has been conditioning against CS for years...

who knows, maybe i'll end up in a movie with Nick Cage
"tie a yellow ribbon 'round the old oak tree, 'cause this man is coming home to his ladies"

Decoligny
05-05-2010, 9:02 AM
when it comes to defending my life, I'll take the jailtime if worse comes to worst - not going to risk having a stick dropped, taken out of my hands, or a thug that has been conditioning against CS for years...

who knows, maybe i'll end up in a movie with Nick Cage
"tie a yellow ribbon 'round the old oak tree, 'cause this man is coming home to his ladies"

So, your answer to the question in Post #1, "What's legal?", is a not so subtle hint to do something illegal?

Why not just come out and say "I don't think any method of self defense is good enough to compare with a gun, so just illegally conceal and hope for the best in court"?

A cane, with a very little amount of training and practice, is a very effective tool for preventing someone from harming you. If an attacker has a knife, he can be kept far enough away that he can't cut you. A cane can even break wrist/arm bones and make the knife hand useless. It can cave in a skull, or break ribs. The hook end can capture an ankle and land a person on their butt. The hook can also be used on arms or on the neck or throat. The end of the cane can direct all the energy of a powerful punch into the area the size of a quarter.

Another benefit to a cane is it can go everywhere, legally.

I have carried my cane into court. I have carried my cane on a cross county flight. Airport security didn't give it a second look.

silaic7
05-05-2010, 9:08 AM
How does one legally defend themselves in California?

Moved to Arizona.

dar25
05-05-2010, 9:27 AM
How about a Telescopic Stun Baton. (http://selfdefense.mybisi.com/product/stun-master-800000-volt-telescopic-stun-baton). Are these things legal in CA? It's basically a fancy stun gun that expands like a light saber, plus has a flashlight and a loud siren built in. Sure it does not replace a firearm but a good alternative to C2 and is multi-use.

Any thoughts?

N6ATF
05-05-2010, 9:41 AM
In CA, they just expect you to die.

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/9/25/128668304374392702.jpg

Only criminals are allowed to effectively defend themselves in CA.

Move to Arizona.

One of these days...

Decoligny
05-05-2010, 10:10 AM
How about a Telescopic Stun Baton. (http://selfdefense.mybisi.com/product/stun-master-800000-volt-telescopic-stun-baton). Are these things legal in CA? It's basically a fancy stun gun that expands like a light saber, plus has a flashlight and a loud siren built in. Sure it does not replace a firearm but a good alternative to C2 and is multi-use.

Any thoughts?

Anything that is called a "baton" would probably be considered a "billy" under california law. Pretty much anything that can be used as a striking weapon, if carried for that purpose, is considered a billy club and could get you a felony charge.

I carry my cane because I have two bad knees, I don't carry it as a weapon. However, if I am ever in a sutuation where I have to defend my life, I will use whatever I have available as a tool to defend myself.

SgtDinosaur
05-05-2010, 10:33 AM
You make sure there are no witnesses.

I think this was the best answer, but not always feasible.

Nevermore
05-05-2010, 10:56 AM
I'm reminded of this scene from Aliens:
Gorman: Apone! Look... we can't have any firing in there. I, uh... I want you to collect magazines from everybody.
Hudson: Is he ****in' crazy?
Frost: What the hell are we supposed to use man? Harsh language?
Of course, with political correctness laws, harsh language might be up for banning soon, too. Don't want to psychologically harm people by calling them names and all. :rolleyes:

dar25
05-05-2010, 11:01 AM
You're probably right, although the telescopic plastic construction is quite flimsy and is not really designed to be used with force like say a police baton would be. It's more like stun "Wand" that is designed for light touch with some voltage :). If you try to strike with it, it will most likely break.

But who knows, under these law a plastic 5 ounce toy sword can be considered a deadly weapon. Sigh...


Anything that is called a "baton" would probably be considered a "billy" under california law. Pretty much anything that can be used as a striking weapon, if carried for that purpose, is considered a billy club and could get you a felony charge.

I carry my cane because I have two bad knees, I don't carry it as a weapon. However, if I am ever in a sutuation where I have to defend my life, I will use whatever I have available as a tool to defend myself.

Flopper
05-05-2010, 12:22 PM
I know knives are far from ideal, but I like to carry this:

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/specpro_2100_1375511

http://www.ltspecpro.com/rajahseries.html

It's a huge blade with a nice handle, yet they somehow made it have a very slim profile. I conceal it in the non-cargo pocket of cargo pants no problem with zero printing.

PS-and it's completely legal to carry.

ap3572001
05-05-2010, 12:43 PM
I have noticed that nearly anything that could be used to defend yourself outside the home has been deemed "Illegal" in this wonderful state of ours. Not everyone has the time, money, or physical capability to enroll in a self defense class. So instead of wasting time trying to figure what is illegal, what praytell can someone use to legally defend themselves with when they are not at home?

I can only say what I see and I am NOT recommending anything....But I have to say it would take a COMBINATION of things.....

There are places and people around that can teach someone to use a LEGAL size knife or KNIVES very well. I mean...REALLY well.

There are some folks around who were involved in MMA/UFC and Combat Sambo. They can and DO teach, and what they teach is not something to win a contest......( hint...)

There are MANY car tools that You can with You in the car at anytime......

A COMBINATION of all the stuff is what it would take to have a good chance.

Mikeb
05-05-2010, 12:49 PM
The only legal way to defend yourself in California is with a Lawyer. Not a public defender but a "out of pocket Lawyer"

Curl up into the fetal position on the floor and try to guard your head with your hands.

these seem to be your choices...
sorry
Mike

IGOTDIRT4U
05-05-2010, 12:57 PM
Pepper spray doesnt work great in all instances or against all people.

Ive been sprayed (both with pepper and CS) three times in my life.... It has very little effect on me. Yeah... It stings... And my eyes water... But not so much that I couldnt continue doing what I was doing... Ive seen other people who fall to the floor in a coughing vomiting pile of phlegm. Most people's reaction falls somewhere in between.

Also, Its pretty worthless on a windy day.... I used it once, and managed to spray.... MYSELF.... And thats all....

Not what I want to rely on when my life depends on it...

lol, did you drop to the ground when you sprayed yourself? You might have a new weapon there; you landing on anyone smaller than 6', 200 lbs is going to be dead by crushing!

BluNorthern
05-05-2010, 1:41 PM
To paraphrase..."When a man with a cane meets a man with a pistol ... the man with the cane will be a dead man."

jr916
05-05-2010, 1:42 PM
Keep in mind, although I agree taking self defense classes and training in martial arts like Brazilian jiu-jitsu, combat Sambo, and boxing/kickboxing is a great way to learn to defend oneself, there is a very large possibility of getting yourself involved in a civil case and losing your life savings if you injure your attacker. My mom was a research attorney and has showed me some cases that just blew my mind, where people legally defended themselves with equal or lesser force (even against multiple assailants) and were sued by the attacker, who won.

I honestly believe the best self defense system to learn is Brazilian jiu-jitsu, since most of the techniques are based on taking you opponent to the ground and choking him unconscious to diffuse the situation. "I never struck my assailant, your honor, or caused any personal injury to him. I merely applied a choke hold technique from a martial art I have been practicing safely for years: the same exact technique used by LEOs to safely subdue criminals without causing physical harm to them. After safely diffusing the violent situation, I left the area as quickly as possible and contacted the police." It seems to me that if punch is thrown or a weapon brandished by your attacker (either of which could cause permanent physical injury), choking him unconscious and running away is using less force than he used against you and paints you as the benevolent victim. This obviously requires physical ability, and I would not attempt to take on a man twice my size, but BJJ can train people to subdue men much stronger and heavier than themselves. My gym also trains knife and handgun defense/disarmament, however I wouldn't attempt that If all the perp wanted was my wallet (I can cancel my credit cards and I rarely carry lots of cash). Training in martial arts also gives you a clearer mindset for dealing with bad scenarios. The ability to avoid and diffuse dangerous situations is just as important as having "tools" to utilize for defense.... stay out of dangerous areas, be sensible, learn to "turn the other cheek" and swallow that ego & pride that get so many people in trouble.

windrider
05-05-2010, 1:46 PM
Throw some poop.

stix213
05-05-2010, 1:50 PM
You are supposed to call the police of course. 20 minutes from now you will be perfectly safe.

Decoligny
05-05-2010, 1:54 PM
To paraphrase..."When a man with a cane meets a man with a pistol ... the man with the cane will be a dead man."

And what the h*ll does this have to do with answering the OPs question?

He wanted to know a LEGAL way to defend himself in California.

Is carrying a concealed gun a better way to defend yourself than a cane? YES!

Is carrying a concealed gun a legal way to defend yourself in CA? Not for 99.99% of us.

Your comment adds about as much as stating "When a man with a concealed piston is spotted by a sniper with a .50 cal ... the man with the concealed gun will be a dead man."

It doesn't even fit into the discussion.

ap3572001
05-05-2010, 2:04 PM
Keep in mind, although I agree taking self defense classes and training in martial arts like Brazilian jiu-jitsu, combat Sambo, and boxing/kickboxing is a great way to learn to defend oneself, there is a very large possibility of getting yourself involved in a civil case and losing your life savings if you injure your attacker. My mom was a research attorney and has showed me some cases that just blew my mind, where people legally defended themselves with equal or lesser force (even against multiple assailants) and were sued by the attacker, who won.

I honestly believe the best self defense system to learn is Brazilian jiu-jitsu, since most of the techniques are based on taking you opponent to the ground and choking him unconscious to diffuse the situation. "I never struck my assailant, your honor, or caused any personal injury to him. I merely applied a choke hold technique from a martial art I have been practicing safely for years: the same exact technique used by LEOs to safely subdue criminals without causing physical harm to them. After safely diffusing the violent situation, I left the area as quickly as possible and contacted the police." It seems to me that if punch is thrown or a weapon brandished by your attacker (either of which could cause permanent physical injury), choking him unconscious and running away is using less force than he used against you and paints you as the benevolent victim. This obviously requires physical ability, and I would not attempt to take on a man twice my size, but BJJ can train people to subdue men much stronger and heavier than themselves. My gym also trains knife and handgun defense/disarmament, however I wouldn't attempt that If all the perp wanted was my wallet (I can cancel my credit cards and I rarely carry lots of cash). Training in martial arts also gives you a clearer mindset for dealing with bad scenarios. The ability to avoid and diffuse dangerous situations is just as important as having "tools" to utilize for defense.... stay out of dangerous areas, be sensible, learn to "turn the other cheek" and swallow that ego & pride that get so many people in trouble.


I do agree with You 100% on BJJ. Was involved in sport Sambo and Combat Sambo most fo my life. However , while spending some time in Asia Kyokushin Karate and knife fighting also became my area of interest ( and practice) . VERY GOOD STUFF TOO.

I am not sure we are talking the same TYPE of self defense. Are You talking about having a civil case after mutual combat? Like a bar fight after the ball game?

I was talking about fighting for Your life. A situation when all You want to do is to win . The same type of a situation that would call for a firearm.

Maybe I did not understand the question .......

Marsoc1
05-05-2010, 2:08 PM
all this talk about defense, i thought this was funny
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a270/purekrazyazian/safe-bedside-table.jpg

windrider
05-05-2010, 2:16 PM
all this talk about defense, i thought this was funny
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a270/purekrazyazian/safe-bedside-table.jpg

when did william wallace buy ikea

RomanDad
05-05-2010, 2:43 PM
lol, did you drop to the ground when you sprayed yourself? You might have a new weapon there; you landing on anyone smaller than 6', 200 lbs is going to be dead by crushing!

No... Ive never gone to the ground from spray.... I cussed a lot, but I do that any way.... Had a nasty taste in my mouth... Went in the house, and then my eyes started watering... a good two minutes later.... That was the WORST reaction Ive ever had.

eyeluv2fish
05-05-2010, 2:47 PM
Hold the assailants head outside for 5 minutes and the smog will give them lung cancer.

Rainbow Warrior
05-05-2010, 3:39 PM
I have noticed that nearly anything that could be used to defend yourself outside the home has been deemed "Illegal" in this wonderful state of ours. Not everyone has the time, money, or physical capability to enroll in a self defense class. So instead of wasting time trying to figure what is illegal, what praytell can someone use to legally defend themselves with when they are not at home?

Just dial 911 and law enforcement will be along shortly.:)

tube_ee
05-05-2010, 7:02 PM
Legally defending yourself in California isn't that hard.

You could use:

Any size fixed-blade knife, so long as you carried it openly. This would include swords.

Any sized folding knife, which you could carry concealed. I think the speed of deployment of a large fixed blade beats the ability to legally conceal the same-sized folder, but YMMV.

Pepper spray.

An axe. Yes, you can carry an axe, as long as you don't conceal it, and nobody f#*%s with the dude with the axe. Nobody. Done that, seen that... it works.

A gun is, of course, preferable to all of these, but unless you've got an address in one of the good counties, you do what you can.

--Shannon

advocatusdiaboli
05-05-2010, 7:23 PM
Face it most punks have guns now a days.
A knife to a gun fight? No.
A Taser to a gun fight? No.
A cane--nice idea for some places where you cannot bring iron and steel weapons. Otherwise... a cane to gun fight? No.
A sword to a gun fight? No.
I think a nice Japanese samurai short sword would be excellent absent firearms on the other side.
But frankly let's face it--anything big enough to defend yourself will attract the attention of local law enforcement and not to your benefit. We have a very fine almost invisible line between being harassed by LEOs and by criminals and it's awfully hard to walk. Damn near impossible. I need to leave this f*cked up state.

Fjold
05-05-2010, 7:25 PM
Like Wes @ TenPercentFirearms I just wear the Kern County uniform.

Flip flops, shorts, and a baggy shirt.

Oh yeah, and a 40 S&W.

eszepher
05-05-2010, 8:01 PM
Curl up and play dead......and they may go away!

advocatusdiaboli
05-05-2010, 8:13 PM
It works with bears (mostly--unless its a hungry Grizz) but most punks will pop you to leave no witnesses. You need to asses the situation and decide. I still remember the family in Virginia who surrendered was taken down the basement by the robbers and all of them had their throats slit--father, mothers and kids. Sometimes your only slim chance is to put up a carefully timed fight or ruse. But this is chaos and no one has a right answer--each one is different and no one knows the right answer in advance. It sucks we cannot carry CCw and have the best chance.

jaustin612
05-05-2010, 8:20 PM
run away, fast.

rrg35
05-05-2010, 8:35 PM
the word to use in front of people for witness is I FEAR FOR MY LIFE AND i'M JUST DEFENDING MY SELF. then kick his **s. UFC Style.

SPaikmos
05-05-2010, 10:26 PM
For knives, canes, and other weapons... I hope you don't carry a knife (with the intention of fighting with it) if you don't have training. Fighting an amateur with a knife is like stealing candy from a baby. If you don't know how to use your knife, please don't pull it out in "self defense". Training with a knife, cane, sword, etc is even more critical than it is with a gun. Like any weapon, you need to learn how to use it and practice it.

I love BJJ, very practical and useful. IMHO, self-defense is something that is learned, and not bought. Just cause you can buy a gun doesn't mean you are instantly safer. I agree that learning a fighting art is a lot more investment than buying a gun, but I'll be damned if anyone takes it away from me. Not possible.

Of course, the first option would be a suitable firearm. But in those cases that I don't have one on me, I'm more than comfortable with my bare hands.

N6ATF
05-05-2010, 11:25 PM
You are supposed to call the police of course. 20 minutes from now you your corpse will be perfectly safe.

Fixed.

Uriah02
05-05-2010, 11:28 PM
Not if the handbag holds less than 10 bricks and requires a tool to open it.

ROFL!:p

gunpower500
05-06-2010, 4:28 AM
I'd kick my assailant in the nuts and run!! Thats self-defense. :43: i go for below the belt LOL. Cheap move but i dont care.

Forestgnome
05-06-2010, 5:42 AM
Okay, how does an 80 year-old legally defend theirself in California. Carry laws in Cali are discriminating against the elderly!

Decoligny
05-06-2010, 7:08 AM
Legally defending yourself in California isn't that hard.

You could use:

Any size fixed-blade knife, so long as you carried it openly. This would include swords.

Under State law maybe, however, knife laws vary from county to county and city to city. Los Angeles County and City both have ordinances that make openly carrying a knife with a blade 3" or larger a criminal offense. So no large K-Bars, and no swords. This also cover large folders, UNLESS they are concealed.

Any sized folding knife, which you could carry concealed. I think the speed of deployment of a large fixed blade beats the ability to legally conceal the same-sized folder, but YMMV.

Pepper spray.

An axe. Yes, you can carry an axe, as long as you don't conceal it, and nobody f#*%s with the dude with the axe. Nobody. Done that, seen that... it works.

A gun is, of course, preferable to all of these, but unless you've got an address in one of the good counties, you do what you can.

--Shannon

See above

advocatusdiaboli
05-06-2010, 9:36 AM
Okay, how does an 80 year-old legally defend theirself in California. Carry laws in Cali are discriminating against the elderly!

One, or preferably two, ferocious Pit Bulls, Rottweilers, Dobermans, or German Shepherds. Or one ornery Chihuahua with a .45--you're carrying him and he's the one carrying ;-)

CAL.BAR
05-06-2010, 10:07 AM
How do Californians defend themselves? LAWYERS!! The most feared weapon in any arsenal.

dk94044
05-13-2010, 9:02 PM
12" long flat head screwdriver is a good choice

FeuerFrei
05-14-2010, 9:28 AM
If you die or get beaten, raped or robbed, it justifies more money for police to combat crime and increased funding for trauma centers, rape counsellors, psychiatrists, therapists, insurance companies, more laws etc. If the police save you, it has PR value for their department. If you live or defeat the criminal without anyone's assistance, you have no statistical value and are useless. Therefore it is better for you to be a victim.

The sad part is, it really isn't a joke.

This is reality...sadly.
Follow the money trail to find their real intentions with regard to laws and regulations. Public safety has nothing to do with it.

N6ATF
05-14-2010, 2:49 PM
This is reality...sadly.
Follow the money trail to find their real intentions with regard to laws and regulations. Public safety has nothing to do with it.

Criminal safety does. No need to find some big money conspiracy. The government is full of criminals, and they can and will do anything to protect their fellow criminals.

postal
05-14-2010, 7:32 PM
How do Californians defend themselves? LAWYERS!! The most feared weapon in any arsenal.

Can you recommend an anorexic midget lawyer for me to put on retainer?

Maybe if he/she is small enough I can throw the lawyer at the bad guy at about 850 FPS...:D

And he/she could wear a "hollowpoint" hat?

postal
05-14-2010, 7:51 PM
All the recomendations of BJJ/kickboxing/ "tai bo" etc... Not everyone is as young as as athletic as you are. Old age, arthritis, obesity, bad back/knees, replaced hip, etc make many of these physical regimens out of reality for many people that would read this thread.

twotap
05-14-2010, 8:42 PM
Since only criminals are allowed to defend themselves here in Ca. If I could not get a CCW legally then I would carry loaded and concealed and take my chances.I believe it is only a misdemeanor anyway . The police cannot and will not protect you so legal or not the right to defend ones life is only up to you !

Citizen 14
05-14-2010, 9:37 PM
I carry a folder. I practice drawing it, so that hopefully if I need it I won't be fumbling around.
If I'm going through someplace at night...parking lot, dark street, etc.. I'll just keep it in my hand (closed) if I have a concern about the area.
I think it's good to have some knife training and I have been lucky enough to train with some great guys.
That said, a knife in the hands of someone willing to use it, (even untrained) is a extremely dangerous weapon. The prisons are full of people who practice the well known art of "grab and stab".
I have lots of friends that do different types of Martial Arts, surprisingly many of them recommend boxing as a very good, straight forward self defense art.
my 2cents for what it's worth. :D

Martinmonica
05-14-2010, 9:39 PM
With a sheriff like me. I am running for sheriff in Santa Clara County

postal
05-14-2010, 10:04 PM
With a sheriff like me. I am running for sheriff in Santa Clara County

I think you should start your own new thread to introduce yourself, and tell us your views and what you would do, and how you would help the people of Santa Clara County.

Regards,
Postal!

bsg
05-14-2010, 11:16 PM
that's like asking a one legged man to go out there and win in a sh-t kicking contest....

USAFTS
05-15-2010, 2:37 AM
California Self Defense is a 6 step process.

1) You block the incoming punch, stick, knife or bullet with some part of your body.

2) Bleed

3) Call 911

4) Continue Bleeding while waiting for Law Enforcement and EMS response.

5) Give a half-conscious suspect description to the officer while a firefighter tries to stop your bleeding.

6) Slowly heal over the next couple of months while being driven back and forth to your court dates because the bad guy is suing you for getting blood on his new leather jacket.

CDFingers
05-15-2010, 4:33 AM
Three pages!, and not one of you actually went to the California State Constitution.

You will find this:

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 1 DECLARATION OF RIGHTS


SECTION 1. All people are by nature free and independent and have
inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and
liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing
and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.

link:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/.const/.article_1

CDFingers' commentary:

Sure, California is not the most gun friendly state in the union. Yet some firearms are legal. And once you all read the Section 1 above, we should no longer hear whining about how we can't defend ourselves.

So now, forget your whining, gather some ammo, and go to the range to enjoy the rights of a Californian.

CDFingers

dunndeal
05-15-2010, 6:26 AM
Three pages!, and not one of you actually went to the California State Constitution.

You will find this:

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 1 DECLARATION OF RIGHTS


SECTION 1. All people are by nature free and independent and have
inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and
liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing
and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.

link:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/.const/.article_1

CDFingers' commentary:

Sure, California is not the most gun friendly state in the union. Yet some firearms are legal. And once you all read the Section 1 above, we should no longer hear whining about how we can't defend ourselves.

So now, forget your whining, gather some ammo, and go to the range to enjoy the rights of a Californian.

CDFingers


Surely you jest. Perhaps in Chico the county sheriff will allow you to legally defend yourself but don't bother trying it in the Bay Area.

cmaynes
05-15-2010, 7:23 AM
Carry a handbag with a brick in it. Though, that's probably illegal, too.

use the Sean Penn defense- the person attacked my rock with his head.....


worked for him- and with a criminal history even got a CCW.... whats not to like about that?

cmaynes
05-15-2010, 7:28 AM
Carry a handbag with a brick in it. Though, that's probably illegal, too.

use the Sean Penn defense- the person attacked my rock with his head.....


worked for him- and with a criminal history even got a CCW.... whats not to like about that?

Vacaville
05-15-2010, 7:35 AM
Curl up in the fetal position and hope they don't go for your face. Then call the cops afterwards so they can take a report.

In all seriousness, I've got two big dogs (80 lbs and 120 lbs) and they are pretty good for castle defense. Back that up with my revolver and you're in a lot of trouble if you try to break into my place.

For out and about, we're all screwed. I carry an assisted-opening knife.

HUTCH 7.62
05-15-2010, 7:47 AM
In CA, they just expect you to die.

unless you're an illegal immigrant future democrat voter

SoCalshooter68
05-15-2010, 7:58 AM
Bulk up = I have found that people are less likely to screw with me now at 270 lbs than they did when I was a mere 170.

I agree with what Timberwolf said, but a friend of mine said I was so big that someone wouldn't confront me he would just hit me with a shovel or whatever he had at hand when I wasn't looking. Made me think that maybe being bigger isn't so safe...:confused:

And my opinion on legal self defense in CA...well the only defense you have is the deterent of a lawsuit by your family afterwards, but the attacker probably doesn't have anything to lose to begin with so...CA=no legal defense.

HUTCH 7.62
05-15-2010, 8:04 AM
Or you can just call the police when you're life is threatened

SPaikmos
05-15-2010, 8:19 AM
Three pages!, and not one of you actually went to the California State Constitution.

You will find this:

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 1 DECLARATION OF RIGHTS


SECTION 1. All people are by nature free and independent and have
inalienable rights. Among these are enjoying and defending life and
liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing
and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.

link:

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/.const/.article_1

CDFingers' commentary:

Sure, California is not the most gun friendly state in the union. Yet some firearms are legal. And once you all read the Section 1 above, we should no longer hear whining about how we can't defend ourselves.

So now, forget your whining, gather some ammo, and go to the range to enjoy the rights of a Californian.

CDFingers

Uh-huh. Sorry if I don't take the state's constitution at face value. There are too many counter examples to what is written there to take this seriously, and this is NOT the thread to discuss it so I'll leave it at that.

Ironically, we weren't taught the state constitution when I went through grade school....

All the recomendations of BJJ/kickboxing/ "tai bo" etc... Not everyone is as young as as athletic as you are. Old age, arthritis, obesity, bad back/knees, replaced hip, etc make many of these physical regimens out of reality for many people that would read this thread.

IMHO: Rule #1 - life's a ***** and it isn't fair.

Also IMHO: Rule #2 - self defense is a personal responsibility, as many have pointed out here. Curl into the fetal position and wait for 911? Or do something about it? You have a choice in how you respond to threats against YOU.

nitpick: Tae Bo is garbage. Please don't call that self-defense.

I don't care if you are a 90 y.o. with no legs; if you care enough about your own safety, you will find a way to fight back. (To illustrate - I'm sure one can think of a way to use his wheelchair as a weapon, and that's not an option for able bodied people) A gun is not the only option available to you. True, you might not be as effective in a fight as Bruce Lee in his prime (rule #1), but that doesn't mean you need to throw your hands up in the air and accept that you are helpless. I personally know of a martial arts school for senior citizens. Some of them are in wheel chairs. Will they be able to fight as good as a 20y.o. in his prime? No. But they are FAR better off than the guy that doesn't train at all.

I agree that a gun can be a great equalizer, but it's not the end-all be-all that people make it out to be. Just like any weapon (knife, sword, nunchaku) you need to train with a gun and become proficient with it. A noob with a gun is about as likely to get shot with his own weapon as a noob with a knife is likely to get sliced with his. The difference is that a gun is already lethal in the hands of an untrained noob, and only becomes MORE LETHAL with training.

Self defense needs to be tailored to the individual. For some people, BJJ and kickboxing are very effective. For others, they will choose a knife or club. And there are those that prefer dogs and guns. There is no single solution that is applicable in all situations and for all people.

BUT, I firmly believe that you need to INVEST some of your own personal TIME in whatever solution you do decide. All too often, people want to outsource something and just pay a nominal fee for some sort of guarantee in life. If you really want to feel safe, invest your own time to learn some techniques that are suited to your physical stature and the situations you are worried about, and practice them.

Some basics that I would teach people when going out and about:

1) Always be aware of your surroundings. Locate and identify exits.
2) Try to identify potential threats as early as possible and avoid them.
3) If you know that some place isn't safe, don't go there. Some of you will say "I don't want criminals telling me where I can and can't walk". Ok, then go there and deal with what happens. But don't complain with the consequences of your decision.
4) If something does happen, the best option is to run. Don't escalate any situation more than it already is.
5) The only legitimate time to stand your ground is when you have no option to run, or can't because you have little kids or what-not. That is the only time you should consider "getting physical".

When I say training, it doesn't mean only physical training. You can do a lot with just your eyes and brain. Use them.

1st5
05-15-2010, 8:50 AM
Cold Steel Inferno Spray.

Yeah, out and about the best defense is to be aware of your surroundings and react accordingly. For example, out for a walk in San Rafael while waiting for the mom-in-law for mother's day dinner...we were walking downtown and spotted some of the local undesirables in our path. Since we are aware and looking ahead, we changed course and took another route. Awareness and avoidance. For when awareness and avoidance doesn't work you will then need preparation, training, and the ability to carry it through. Since I can't CCW I carry Inferno Spray in a 2.5 oz can (that is the legal limit here in CA) and a Spyderco Delica or two. Knowing that the Inferno Spray is not a mist but a gel, it holds together in the wind for a range of up to 8-10 feet. I also choose Inferno Spray for it's put down power. When that is deployed it is then time to run like hell calling 911 on the cell phone. If it comes down to hand to hand, deploy the knife and go for a mobility kill if I can...inside thigh stab and rip the blade out laterally. And then run like hell. Hoping of course, that the bad guy isn't carrying a gun...but what the hell else am I going to do?
So far, awareness and avoidance have worked. Also, looking like we're not targets helps too. And for the times when we have them with us, walking a 105 male Rhodesian Ridgeback and his "little" sister the 80 lb female Ridgeback...

http://www.pjtv.com/v/3557 Take a look at Poizner's interview on PJTV. He's catching up to Meg w/ only two points separating them now.

USAFTS
05-15-2010, 12:06 PM
"Three pages!, and not one of you actually went to the California State Constitution..." "...And once you all read the Section 1 above, we should no longer hear whining about how we can't defend ourselves.

So now, forget your whining, gather some ammo, and go to the range to enjoy the rights of a Californian.

CDFingers

At the risk of sounding confrontational...ARE YOU FREAKIN KIDDING ME?

Why have we allowed self defense to be relegated to the reletive safety of our living rooms? I have many guns in various sizes, shapes, colors, configurations and calibers. Most of which are readily accessible for home defense. The ability to protect myself and my family AT HOME is a non-issue and will continue to be a non-issue until such time as an out of control government sucessfully and forcefully removes all of my weapons from my home.

How does reading the California Constitution and going to the range magically give me the ability to defend myself and others when I leave my home and go out into the public? OUTSIDE THE HOME is where viable self defense is not only more necessary but has been largely regulated into illegal non-existence.

When I hear someone come into a pro-self defense forum and use the word "whining" (twice) when referring to an American citizen being angry, upset or concerned about their Constituitonally guaranteed, individual 2nd Amendment right being denied to them.... I hear a gun-grabber.

If you truly believe that we can "...enjoy the rights of a Californian" then I have a feeling you are here under false pretenses.

If I am wrong, I apologize and I am sorry for the soapbox rant.

motorhead
05-15-2010, 4:06 PM
practice screaming. know the patrol routes of local l.e. and all station and substation locations and hours.
soiling yourself makes it less likely your assailant will want to touch you.
"rights of a californian"? i just presoiled myself laughing!

postal
05-15-2010, 4:17 PM
IMHO: Rule #1 - life's a ***** and it isn't fair.

Also IMHO: Rule #2 - self defense is a personal responsibility, as many have pointed out here. Curl into the fetal position and wait for 911? Or do something about it? You have a choice in how you respond to threats against YOU.

nitpick: Tae Bo is garbage. Please don't call that self-defense.

I don't care if you are a 90 y.o. with no legs; if you care enough about your own safety, you will find a way to fight back. (To illustrate - I'm sure one can think of a way to use his wheelchair as a weapon, and that's not an option for able bodied people) A gun is not the only option available to you. True, you might not be as effective in a fight as Bruce Lee in his prime (rule #1), but that doesn't mean you need to throw your hands up in the air and accept that you are helpless. I personally know of a martial arts school for senior citizens. Some of them are in wheel chairs. Will they be able to fight as good as a 20y.o. in his prime? No. But they are FAR better off than the guy that doesn't train at all.

I agree that a gun can be a great equalizer, but it's not the end-all be-all that people make it out to be. Just like any weapon (knife, sword, nunchaku) you need to train with a gun and become proficient with it. A noob with a gun is about as likely to get shot with his own weapon as a noob with a knife is likely to get sliced with his. The difference is that a gun is already lethal in the hands of an untrained noob, and only becomes MORE LETHAL with training.

Self defense needs to be tailored to the individual. For some people, BJJ and kickboxing are very effective. For others, they will choose a knife or club. And there are those that prefer dogs and guns. There is no single solution that is applicable in all situations and for all people.

BUT, I firmly believe that you need to INVEST some of your own personal TIME in whatever solution you do decide. All too often, people want to outsource something and just pay a nominal fee for some sort of guarantee in life. If you really want to feel safe, invest your own time to learn some techniques that are suited to your physical stature and the situations you are worried about, and practice them.

Some basics that I would teach people when going out and about:

1) Always be aware of your surroundings. Locate and identify exits.
2) Try to identify potential threats as early as possible and avoid them.
3) If you know that some place isn't safe, don't go there. Some of you will say "I don't want criminals telling me where I can and can't walk". Ok, then go there and deal with what happens. But don't complain with the consequences of your decision.
4) If something does happen, the best option is to run. Don't escalate any situation more than it already is.
5) The only legitimate time to stand your ground is when you have no option to run, or can't because you have little kids or what-not. That is the only time you should consider "getting physical".

When I say training, it doesn't mean only physical training. You can do a lot with just your eyes and brain. Use them.

This is a very good reply in response to my post. You spent a great deal of time expressing a lot of important info. Kudos to you:) :cheers2:

I would point out, that I like to play "devils advocate" when it comes to arguements. Though my arguement may not apply to me personally- such as the old/obese/etc. I'm in my mid 30's, skinny in pretty decent shape, and had over 5 yrs of MMA training. Always watch my surroundings. Also been beat up enough to know phsycal training in and of itself is not enough. Always someone better- or luckier than you.

I wrote tai bo only as a joke to see if someone would catch it! Thats why it was in " ":D


Thing is though- yes the gun *IS* the great equalizer. No amount of physical strength or hand to hand combat training beats the odds of
1 Having a gun
2 knowing how to use it
3 training and practicing with it. (including most importantly- weapons retention!)

If one has the above, unarmed combat, defencive tactics etc etc is a distant 3rd place- though situation awareness is always #1.

Thanks again for taking the time for your excellent post.

Regards,
Postal!

SPaikmos
05-15-2010, 9:25 PM
This is a very good reply in response to my post. You spent a great deal of time expressing a lot of important info. Kudos to you:) :cheers2:

I would point out, that I like to play "devils advocate" when it comes to arguements. Though my arguement may not apply to me personally- such as the old/obese/etc. I'm in my mid 30's, skinny in pretty decent shape, and had over 5 yrs of MMA training. Always watch my surroundings. Also been beat up enough to know phsycal training in and of itself is not enough. Always someone better- or luckier than you.

I wrote tai bo only as a joke to see if someone would catch it! Thats why it was in " ":D


Thing is though- yes the gun *IS* the great equalizer. No amount of physical strength or hand to hand combat training beats the odds of
1 Having a gun
2 knowing how to use it
3 training and practicing with it. (including most importantly- weapons retention!)

If one has the above, unarmed combat, defencive tactics etc etc is a distant 3rd place- though situation awareness is always #1.

Thanks again for taking the time for your excellent post.

Regards,
Postal!

Hey, glad you appreciate the response. I still can't believe I wrote that first thing after waking up. I need a life. I like the devil's advocate view; it really got me thinking as to what "self defense" really is.

It's unfortunate that this thread got turned into a lot of cynical views about CA. I am not happy with the gun laws either, but the OP asked about self defense, not necessarily gun laws.

I am not a lawyer, but my guess is that self defense is exactly that - you defend yourself when attacked. For instance, if someone is stealing your crap, can you shoot them? No. Can you go BJJ on them and break their arms? Most likely, no. Honestly, you can try to detain them, but if you apply more force than what they are doing, most likely you will get yourself arrested and (as others facetiously point out) the criminal will become the victim.

My only beef with a gun is that it's not as easily accessible as other weapons. I'm a big fan of empty hand techniques, simply because nobody can take them from you. Whether you're in the shower, on a plane, in the courtroom, you will always have those techniques. Tools are nice, but they're not always there.

Going back to the OP's question... so, what can you LEGALLY do in CA? Let's say someone draws a gun and says "give me all your money or I shoot". What can you legally do? Can you try to grab his gun and shoot him with it? Or once you disarm him does he "no longer threaten you" and you are obligated to stop?

My guess is that you are more or less required to flee, unless you cannot. In that case, I'd say you can apply as much force as is being applied to you. If someone is unarmed, and you draw a knife, that is probably going to look bad. But I have no idea, and I hope someone can answer this (without disparaging the govt - that gets kinda old)

Honestly, even if you had a CCW, I don't think it's a license to kill. If someone tries to mug you bare handed, I would think that you cannot draw a gun and shoot him point blank. But I don't have a CCW, and I don't have training, so I have no clue.

Anothercoilgun
05-15-2010, 10:40 PM
Who is the one? A judge, a pop star, a LEO? Otherwise, a force field.

CDFingers
05-16-2010, 4:19 AM
Hey, youze guys whining about gun possession in California.

In every city, town, and village, in California, there is at least one type of gun that can be bought and leaned up against the wall next to your bed--legally.

Whine if you want, but don't be surprised if you see me giggling.

Work to repeal idiotic gun laws in California, but if all's you can own is a black powder muzzle loader in your town, then you'd best get one, charge it, and lean it up against the wall next to your bed. Better yet, get two--bad guys travel in pairs sometimes.

Sheesh.

As for the scoundrels who suggest "gun grabbing", I believe you are misinformed. Chico has the toughest laws in the nation about the possession of nuclear bombs, so, being forbidden to own one, I selected another area of legal weapons possession.

CDFingers

SPaikmos
05-16-2010, 8:36 AM
Hey, youze guys whining about gun possession in California.

In every city, town, and village, in California, there is at least one type of gun that can be bought and leaned up against the wall next to your bed--legally.

Whine if you want, but don't be surprised if you see me giggling.

<snip>

As for the scoundrels who suggest "gun grabbing", I believe you are misinformed. Chico has the toughest laws in the nation about the possession of nuclear bombs, so, being forbidden to own one, I selected another area of legal weapons possession.

CDFingers

Dude, read the OP:

I have noticed that nearly anything that could be used to defend yourself outside the home has been deemed "Illegal" in this wonderful state of ours. Not everyone has the time, money, or physical capability to enroll in a self defense class. So instead of wasting time trying to figure what is illegal, what praytell can someone use to legally defend themselves with when they are not at home?

IIRC, the ones that are upset about your whining comment are the ones that feel restricted from carrying a firearm while out and about. Nobody here believes they are restricted from carrying at home (although the cynics suggest that too is under attack).

I agree that some people were a bit harsh in jumping to the gun grabber conclusion. Thanks for the clarification that you were talking about HD, but that isn't the topic of this thread...

USAFTS
05-16-2010, 10:12 AM
I agree that some people were a bit harsh in jumping to the gun grabber conclusion....

I attempted to preface my earlier comment and then apologized if it was off base. I still, however, have to wonder about someone who will come into a california based pro-gun forum and within a self-defense related thread...use the word "whining" (now 4 times) when referring to those of us that are conerned about our ability to Keep (own) and bear (carry) a handgun while OUTSIDE the relative safety of our homes. Never, did I conclude that anyone was a gun-grabber. I said that the attitude and vocabulary sounded like a "gun-grabber". That arguement is still true and frankly was strengthend by the most recent post in which the "harsh" attitude remained consistent and the word "whining" was used twice more.

Again...if I am off-base, I am genuinely sorry as I personally would not want to be accused of gun-grabbing attitudes or behavior.

Have a great day.

Glock-matic
05-16-2010, 10:21 AM
Tie a stick of dynamite to the perps chest, detonate it, and call him a failed terrorist.

the_natterjack
05-16-2010, 5:12 PM
I have noticed that nearly anything that could be used to defend yourself outside the home has been deemed "Illegal" in this wonderful state of ours. Not everyone has the time, money, or physical capability to enroll in a self defense class. So instead of wasting time trying to figure what is illegal, what praytell can someone use to legally defend themselves with when they are not at home?

Ummm, I carry a 4" Kershaw folder. It's not as good as a firearm but it is legal and I will do my best to make their day go badly.

LUCC is legal, knifes, OC, what else?

Brian

Alaska444
05-16-2010, 10:49 PM
Which is why the McDonald case before the Supremes is so important, and so much hinges on their decision.
Given a favorable decision, not only will we citizens (eventually, even here in CA) get a right to carry; to some degree, we get a right-to-fight-back-and-survive as well, since we now will have appropriate tools available to us that will make this possible.
Denying us the means of self-defense is the same as denying self-defense.

Given an unfavorable decision...I would rather not think of the implications.

The right to defend oneself is the most basic one in nature.
I'm looking forward to June 26th and a favorable SCOTUS decision.
On this day, perhaps, a citizen's life will be worth something again.

I doubt that McDonald will open the door to more liberal carry laws. The issue with McDonald is gun ownership, not ccw or open carry. Even with McDonald, CA already gives you the right to own guns, just denies CCW to any but a few with political connections for the most part. The other problem with McDonald is it may in the long run open up the Feds power over gun friendly states. I suspect that is the motive for why they are looking at it now with so many states coming around to shall issue. Either way, we may lose if we lose or if we win. Just one more Fed power grab.

JoeNoBody
05-17-2010, 1:05 PM
I am a former cop and former security professional, before I became a cop. This was more than 20 years ago.

- I still have my baton from the old days, an aluminum tube with a rubber grip on one end. Unless you are an active duty cop or security agent, possession of a baton is a felony in California

- I have several knives I have bought in retail stores in California with double edges. The penal code would call them "daggers", these are felonies to posses.

- I have a wonderful Cold Steel "Rajah II", a folding Gurka style knife that can effortlessly cut off a bad guy's hand at the wrist or the forearm at the elbow or his... yes his head. I'll assume if I had this clipped to my belt in public, I could be charged with a felony.

- So we now know it would be a felony to spray Wasp spray on a bad guy.

- Possession of "pepper spray" paint balls for your paint ball gun, I'll guess is a felony even though these items are made in San Diego.

- I own a cross bow. I did a search of the penal code and found only 2 laws, I can't shoot my cross bow if I'm drunk and I can't shoot my cross bow over a highway. That's all the penal code says about a cross bow.

- My compact .45 is a misdemeanor to posses in a concealed manner away from home.

It kind of looks like the best choice for me is to carry the cross bow. All the other choices would lead to felony convictions, except the .45

postal
05-17-2010, 1:08 PM
I doubt that McDonald will open the door to more liberal carry laws. The issue with McDonald is gun ownership, not ccw or open carry. Even with McDonald, CA already gives you the right to own guns, just denies CCW to any but a few with political connections for the most part. The other problem with McDonald is it may in the long run open up the Feds power over gun friendly states. I suspect that is the motive for why they are looking at it now with so many states coming around to shall issue. Either way, we may lose if we lose or if we win. Just one more Fed power grab.

Alaska,

Welcome to the forum:)!

Many of us have been here a lot longer than you. We've done a great deal more reading on some of the implications of many of the court decisions, and more importantly, we are aware of several current cases here in california which are on hold, until the Mcdonald ruling comes out.

Stick around, do some reading, and you would come to the same conclusion as Ojisan.

In short to help get you caught up to speed, Heller was decided 2 yrs ago. This gave an interpretation of the 2nd amendment as being an Individual Right. Also stated "Keep" was to own or posess, and "Bear" was "to wear, hold, to carry on a person or perhaps in a perosns clothing or in a pocket".

McDonald was filed in Chicago immediately following Heller. MCD is NOT about gun ownership or the chicago ban- It's REALLY about getting the 2nd amendment (individual right) incorporated against the states.

Once it's incorporated, we have standing to get laws changed because they infringe on our rights as individuals, and incorporated meaning the state can not infringe on those rights (much).

There are at least 3 cases in california on hold for MCDonald decision.

1 is "Nordyke" which will start hashing out "sensitive places" cities, counties and states can restrict firearms.

2 is "Pena" which I think it the "safe handgun list" which would be significantly expanded if not simply tossed out.

3 is a CCW case. Forgot the plaintiffs name- The logic of CCW is that 2A is an individual right to own and carry a gun for self defence, MCD incorporates against the states forcing them to recognize the right, and the CCW case to take gun possession for self defence, beyond our homes.... and to "carry, wear, to posess in their clothing or perhaps in a pocket".

Everything is built up like a house of cards. Heller HAD to be the foundation, and the first level, is MCD. Every case goes back to Heller, but it's the combination of Heller AND MCDonald that allows all this to happen.

Everything is done to build up the next level, and the next.

turbogg
05-17-2010, 1:18 PM
Carry a handbag with a brick in it. Though, that's probably illegal, too.

And using the handbag for self defense is probably illegal, even without the brick!

turbogg
05-17-2010, 1:26 PM
If you die or get beaten, raped or robbed, it justifies more money for police to combat crime and increased funding for trauma centers, rape counsellors, psychiatrists, therapists

......and Federal Perpetator Trauma Healing Centers, after all, those poor criminals may have emotional trauma after they beat your *$$ to death.

postal
05-17-2010, 6:18 PM
I am a former cop and former security professional, before I became a cop. This was more than 20 years ago.

- I still have my baton from the old days, an aluminum tube with a rubber grip on one end. Unless you are an active duty cop or security agent, possession of a baton is a felony in California

- I have several knives I have bought in retail stores in California with double edges. The penal code would call them "daggers", these are felonies to posses.

- I have a wonderful Cold Steel "Rajah II", a folding Gurka style knife that can effortlessly cut off a bad guy's hand at the wrist or the forearm at the elbow or his... yes his head. I'll assume if I had this clipped to my belt in public, I could be charged with a felony.

- So we now know it would be a felony to spray Wasp spray on a bad guy.

- Possession of "pepper spray" paint balls for your paint ball gun, I'll guess is a felony even though these items are made in San Diego.

- I own a cross bow. I did a search of the penal code and found only 2 laws, I can't shoot my cross bow if I'm drunk and I can't shoot my cross bow over a highway. That's all the penal code says about a cross bow.

- My compact .45 is a misdemeanor to posses in a concealed manner away from home.

It kind of looks like the best choice for me is to carry the cross bow. All the other choices would lead to felony convictions, except the .45

But could you legally conceal a pistol crossbow?

Funny stuff! Great post!

Sniper3142
05-17-2010, 6:22 PM
Or you can just call the police when you're life is threatened

Great Advice...

And the police will show up just in time to draw the chalk outline around my dead body!

:mad:

Sorry, but I'd rather not wait that long!!!

The usual assault on a person in public only lasts a few second to a minute at most (on average). So... when seconds count between Life and Death, the Police are only MINUTES away!!!

:(

Bill Jackson
05-18-2010, 6:49 AM
I am a former cop and former security professional, before I became a cop. This was more than 20 years ago.

- I have several knives I have bought in retail stores in California with double edges. The penal code would call them "daggers", these are felonies to posses.

- I have a wonderful Cold Steel "Rajah II", a folding Gurka style knife that can effortlessly cut off a bad guy's hand at the wrist or the forearm at the elbow or his... yes his head. I'll assume if I had this clipped to my belt in public, I could be charged with a felony.


Hi Joe,

I did some LEO time back in those days. A few things have changed since then with regard to knives, some for the better.

It hasn't been updated for a few years, and local ordinances may impose further restrictions, however this page on CA knife laws (http://www.ninehundred.net/~equalccw/knifelaw.html) is an interesting read.

Bill

xxINKxx
05-18-2010, 8:40 AM
You are supposed to call the police of course. 20 minutes from now you will be perfectly safe.

Ya, and add another 5 mins of arguing over the phone with the operator about why you are calling, and hope they even believe you..Seems to happen alot these days.

Rusty413
05-18-2010, 9:44 AM
Ninja eggs and/or rape whistle lol...

But seriously a few people have stated that which I will now. I rarely get messed with even in the "dingier" parts of downtown Santa Cruz and a lot of that has to do with appearance. I am after all 6' tall about 240 lbs with broad shoulders. I am normally wearing some heavy duty boots, hunting cammo hat and the piece de resistance - a 7.5 in fixed blade in a sheath on my hip. I've found that the criminal type are easily deterred from messing with someone if they look like it could be potentially dangerous to them at all. This being said it seems like my solution unfortunately doesnt offer help elderly, kids, smaller guys, or females. But I garantee you that if grandpa or ur girlfriend was carrying a large fixed blade knife, that became handheld the second they felt in danger, it would deter a lot *but not all* of people that would pose a problem.

What i feel that needs to be said is that it has been my personal experience that the criminal type doesn't know how to fight that well. So for the avg joe - just get a punching bag and go to some martial arts classes... However, as stated before a lot of those people don't know how to fight well so they rely on weapons to get the edge up. In this case well the solution is easy - get a BIGGER weapon then theirs :43: They pull out a pocket knife you pull out a large fixed blade.

ap3572001
05-18-2010, 9:49 AM
A basic knowlege of martial arts and a legal size , sharp blade in each hand can be a VERY effective combination .

smallshot13
05-18-2010, 10:35 PM
Wow, 126 posts and no one got it right. You simply hit them with your 85# copy of the PC regulations restricting honest citizens actions, which you must cary at all times to make sure that you do not break the law.

CaliforniaSelfDefense
06-01-2010, 3:53 PM
There are lots of options for Self-Defense in California. They may not be what we are looking for but they are the non-lethal alternative.

Visit http://www.californiaselfdefense.com for lots of options such as Tasers, Pepper Sprays, Stun Guns and lots more.

Decoligny
06-01-2010, 6:41 PM
- I still have my baton from the old days, an aluminum tube with a rubber grip on one end. Unless you are an active duty cop or security agent, possession of a baton is a felony in California


So, you are admitting on a public forum that you are a felon.



- I have several knives I have bought in retail stores in California with double edges. The penal code would call them "daggers", these are felonies to posses.


No, double edge has nothing to do with the definition of a "dagger" in the penal code. Anything that can readily be used for stabbing, is a "dirk or dagger". This includes fixed blade knives and open folders. The penal code states that "dirks of daggers" are illegal ONLY if concealed. PC 12020.

- I have a wonderful Cold Steel "Rajah II", a folding Gurka style knife that can effortlessly cut off a bad guy's hand at the wrist or the forearm at the elbow or his... yes his head. I'll assume if I had this clipped to my belt in public, I could be charged with a felony.

No, you could however be charged with violating a local or county ordinance in places like L.A.

There is no state prohibition from carrying any length folding knife openly, and no local ordinances that I am aware of that make it illegal to carry a large folder concealed.



- So we now know it would be a felony to spray Wasp spray on a bad guy.


Don't know about a felony, but all the labels state that using the product for anything other than its intended purpose is a federal offense.




- Possession of "pepper spray" paint balls for your paint ball gun, I'll guess is a felony even though these items are made in San Diego.


Shouldn't guess, you should look up the actual penal code to be sure.

Vacaville
06-01-2010, 6:49 PM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3645/3352354832_424c455bfd.jpg

I like to use my rubber band rifle from when I was a kid. Sometimes I put a bobby pin on it so it hurts more. Oh wait - that's illegal too under local ordinance.

EWILKE
06-01-2010, 8:04 PM
Thats what lawyers are for here in california.you take the injury or death and you or your next of kin file a lawsuit and hopefully get paid for your trouble. otherwise your the one to get screwed.

aaronraby1
06-01-2010, 8:14 PM
step one: go to local sports store.
step two: buy wooden baseball bat.
step three: take home.
step four: hammer 6'' nails in the end of the bat.
step six: place in back seat of car, in the closet or under the bed.

and for concealed carry baseball bats, go to your local dodgers game and buy one of those suvenior bats thats a foot long and hide in pants or jacket.

youre good to go after that!!!

RomanDad
06-01-2010, 8:31 PM
Ninja eggs and/or rape whistle lol...

But seriously a few people have stated that which I will now. I rarely get messed with even in the "dingier" parts of downtown Santa Cruz and a lot of that has to do with appearance. I am after all 6' tall about 240 lbs with broad shoulders. I am normally wearing some heavy duty boots, hunting cammo hat and the piece de resistance - a 7.5 in fixed blade in a sheath on my hip. I've found that the criminal type are easily deterred from messing with someone if they look like it could be potentially dangerous to them at all. This being said it seems like my solution unfortunately doesnt offer help elderly, kids, smaller guys, or females. But I garantee you that if grandpa or ur girlfriend was carrying a large fixed blade knife, that became handheld the second they felt in danger, it would deter a lot *but not all* of people that would pose a problem.

What i feel that needs to be said is that it has been my personal experience that the criminal type doesn't know how to fight that well. So for the avg joe - just get a punching bag and go to some martial arts classes... However, as stated before a lot of those people don't know how to fight well so they rely on weapons to get the edge up. In this case well the solution is easy - get a BIGGER weapon then theirs :43: They pull out a pocket knife you pull out a large fixed blade.


Unfortunately..... My experience tells me you may be mistaken.

http://romandad.com/Story.pdf

Vonshliken12
06-02-2010, 12:22 PM
I feel you chester. Sometimes I just want to read the answer to the question in the thread and we get pages of people complaining about CA. Its like in High School when every one complains about the teacher.

Justintoxicated
06-02-2010, 12:48 PM
You can keep a bottle opener in your car with you right?

http://www.toolsnob.com/archives/2009/04/dead_on_annihilator_wrecking_b_1.php

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001SEQH1I?ie=UTF8&tag=jaybrewernet27-20&link_code=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=B001SEQH1I

Good thing I'm constantly remodeling. :)

Dragunov
06-02-2010, 1:01 PM
Harsh language, just don't damage the perps self esteem, you could wind up with 2A rights ending felony.

My Daughters carry black eggs. I carry an unloaded SKS in my vehicle and 100 rounds on strippers.

N6ATF
06-02-2010, 2:16 PM
You have ninjas? And strippers wearing bandoleers riding around with you?

:p

Steyr_223
06-02-2010, 2:24 PM
Learn an unarmed martial art or arts (BJJ, Muay Thai and JKD)

Learn am armed martial art ( Escrima )

Carry a legal weapon on your person (Benchmade AFCK or Gerber Applegate-Fairbairn Covert Folder) and know how to use it..Practice, watch videos, goto seminars or classes.

In your car or house (baseball bat/ Escrima sticks)

GuyW
06-02-2010, 3:42 PM
Yeah - good to go 6 years in state penitentiary for a felony...

step one: go to local sports store.
step two: buy wooden baseball bat.
step three: take home.
step four: hammer 6'' nails in the end of the bat.
step six: place in back seat of car, in the closet or under the bed.

and for concealed carry baseball bats, go to your local dodgers game and buy one of those suvenior bats thats a foot long and hide in pants or jacket.

youre good to go after that!!!

santamonica9
06-03-2010, 12:54 PM
there is no legal self defense in CA using a gun UNLESS you know somebody or something like that (think celebs & politicians) CCW are too regulated and hard to get for the average law abiding citizen

depending on your city (check with local police) foldable knife is good, make sure you are comfortable using it AND PRACTICE just like you do with your guns

a martial art is very good - I've studied a couple different forms. I have found that the most self-defense oriented one was Krav Maga - a newer martial art that encompasses the best moves from many forms. I have took my female cuz, who almost whole 110 lbs. to the class (she goes to school in a bad area USC scholarship) She know is very aware of her seroundings and confident she can take care of herself PLUS its a great work out and I have spared with her and she surprised me with how well she defended herself

Sadly too many lefties here in CA would rather have all the law abiding citizen get hurt, raped or killed rather than be able to defend ourselves :( vote these idoits out of office

for an older person sadly there is not much, i'd say pepper spray. Hard to think the average 80 year old pulling out a Cold Steel Rajah during mugging atack.

ZX-10R
06-03-2010, 1:42 PM
The way you defend yourself is by doing so with what you have at hand. Law or not it is either myself or them and I love me more than I love them.

Nick1236
06-03-2010, 1:50 PM
for an older person sadly there is not much, i'd say pepper spray. Hard to think the average 80 year old pulling out a Cold Steel Rajah during mugging atack.


If I was an average 80yr old man, I'd carry a gun and damn well would use it. I'm freakin 80 years old what else am I gonna do. And seriously, whos gonna convict an 80 year old man using a pistol for self defense. There was a older fellow here in San Diego that held up a robber in his home butt *** naked till the cops showed up. He never got in trouble. I remember the radio station interviewing him.

San FranPsycho
06-03-2010, 10:52 PM
Unfortunately..... My experience tells me you may be mistaken.

http://romandad.com/Story.pdf

Where in SF?

Noxx
06-04-2010, 12:20 AM
I'd side with the posters who advocate carrying a good sized folder, and practice deploying it quickly.

The Cold steel Rajah has been mentioned a few times in this thread, seems to be some confusion there, wouldn't go so far as to say FUD, but knife laws are complex.

I carry a Rajah I, just took the belt clip off it and keep it in a pocket, keeps me legal as I wander into and out of LA county. It deploys in a blink, and as a previous poster mentioned, is large and heavy enough to lop off bits, esp with Kukri blade design.

All things considered I'd rather be carrying my 642, depends on what sort of chances you're willing to take with the law.

Noxx
06-04-2010, 12:29 AM
If I was an average 80yr old man, I'd carry a gun and damn well would use it. I'm freakin 80 years old what else am I gonna do.


Ah, god bless surly old people, I love em so. Years ago I knew an elderly gentleman out in the I.E. who was well known for carrying his service 1911A1 from the war. His standard tagline was "What are they gonna do, give me life? I'm eighty two f***ing years old, I'll be out on Friday either way!".

Man I miss that guy, and everyone I've known like him.

Dragunov
07-01-2010, 12:23 PM
The way you defend yourself is by doing so with what you have at hand. Law or not it is either myself or them and I love me more than I love them.

This.

Dragunov
07-15-2010, 1:41 PM
I carry an unloaded SKS in my truck just out of reach and 100 rounds on stripper clips. This is legal.