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Jeff213
05-04-2010, 3:40 PM
I have been told that it is illegal to transport a handgun in a locked box with speed loaders or loaded magazines inside the box with it, but have been unable to find the actual law stating this. Is this actually the law or is this just something people are saying?

stix213
05-04-2010, 3:43 PM
Cause there is no law that says that. Just make sure they are not inserted into the firearm. I was told the same thing by a gun shop and was promptly smacked down months ago by other kind calguns members for my ignorance :p

Hoologan
05-04-2010, 3:45 PM
This has been discussed several times already this week, please try a search.

CSDGuy
05-04-2010, 3:48 PM
Jeff123: I'll make it simple for you. You can have loaded magazines in the same locked container as the handgun... you just can't have the loaded magazine actually IN the gun at the time.

People v. Clark. Oh, and use the search. This subject comes up VERY frequently.

darksands
05-04-2010, 3:59 PM
Yea, it's legal but the police prefer you not do it. Might as well keep them separated to not have to deal with the hassle.

GrizzlyGuy
05-04-2010, 4:02 PM
No such law exists. From the FAQ:

Can I have ammunition in the same case and compartment as the gun? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_I_have_ammunition_in_the_same_case_and_com partment_as_the_gun.3F)

Can my magazines for semiautomatic handguns have ammunition in them?
(http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_my_magazines_for_semiautomatic_handguns_ha ve_ammunition_in_them.3F)
Can my speed loaders for revolvers have ammunition in them? (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Can_my_speed_loaders_for_revolvers_have_ammuni tion_in_them.3F)

More info here in the wiki: Transporting (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transporting)

welchy
05-04-2010, 4:43 PM
Yea, it's legal but the police prefer you not do it. Might as well keep them separated to not have to deal with the hassle.

I don't care what the police prefer. ;)

Charlie50
05-04-2010, 5:34 PM
The following is what I've gleaned (OK plagerized) from Calguns, our very own Gene and other sources that may help to clear some confusion. Those of a more legal bent than me please feel free to provide useful input. :rolleyes:I was thinking that creating an easy to follow flow chart much like with other issues (OLL, AWs , etc.) near and dear to our hearts might be considered.:)

The closest thing you're going to find is on the CHP web site of FAQ:
Source CHPgov.com

“California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well. If you have additional questions, contact the California Department of Justice at 916-227-3703.” 1-4-10
“Some gun owners may be more comfortable transporting ammunition in a separate container, or a separate compartment of the locked container, but this is not required by current law.” CHP FAQ website 2010

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

[Since this post concentrates on loaded, other parts of 12031 are omitted, including the definitions of other terms in (a)(1).]

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell, consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or shot, in, the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing chamber, loaded magazine in the firearm;

Summary:
• Unlocked unloaded handgun in plain view with a concealed magazine in a car, Violation.
• Unlocked unloaded handgun in plain view with a magazine in plain view in a car, Legal. Unlocked unloaded handgun and in a locked secure container with a concealed (loaded) magazine or ammunition, Legal.
• Concealed carry, loaded or unloaded on person (without CCW), Violation
The case regarding what the definition of what a “loaded firearm” is clearly defined in people Vs Clark, 1994, a cartridge, loaded magazine or bullet must be in a position to be readily fired. For example loaded magazine in weapon is violation, bullet in battery is violation, bullets in buttstock or attached to buttstock is legal. Bullets in pocket legal

except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

The confusion is where one can take LCC. The controlling Penal Code is 12025:
Quote:
12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
The exception that LCC relies upon is in PC 12026.1
Quote:
12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted
classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or
Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from
transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the
following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm,
the firearm is contained within a locked container.
(b) The provisions of this section do not prohibit or limit the
otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in
accordance with this chapter.
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock,
combination lock, or similar locking device.

There is a sentence enhancement for carrying concealed - violating 12025, in 12025(b)(6), that has that 'readily accessible' language in it - but carrying in a locked case according to 12026.1 or .2 avoids violating 12025.

A LCC firearm may be carried from home or place of business (PC 12026.) PC 12026.1 (a) (2) allows me to carry the firearm directly to my car from home or work. I can also have the LCC firearm in my car per 12026.1(a)(1). Notice that there is no requirement that my car has to go anywhere in particular.

(a)(4) Going to or from any place you can in 12026 (home/work/private property) - note that this exception is broader than just vehicles and probably includes walking.

The only exception is People VS Clark 1996
Referring to having weapons in possession during the commission of a crime.

2026.1(a)(2) not only allows you to LCC the firearm from work or home to your vehicle, but directly to/from ANY motor vehicle (not only yours) FOR ANY LAWFUL PURPOSE. No restriction of actual place there. And of course in locked container. So, if you are a citizen over 18, you can carry LCC anywhere in A motor vehicle (How about a public conveyance - i.e. Muni Bus??), and DIRECTLY to and from ANY motor vehicle for ANY lawful purpose. I see no travel to/from restrictions nor any route deviation restrictions. Actually, route is irrelevant.


12026.1. (a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any
citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or
is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the
excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this
code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code,
from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that
the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the
vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than
the utility or glove compartment.
(2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any
motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the
firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
...
(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key
lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.
12026.2(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision
(a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall
be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision
(d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations
between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the
circumstances.
...
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.

Locked container
The code specifies either a separate locked container or the trunk of a motor vehicle while transporting a handgun in a vehicle.
The separate locked container may be located any place in the vehicle; it is not restricted to the trunk.
Glove compartments, factory installed center consoles do not qualify as “separate locked container”.
Vehicles without trunks
Since the trunk is not required, transport of a handgun, unloaded in a secure locked container, is allowed on bicycles and motorcycles, and in pickup trucks, vans and station wagons
Secure container
Secure is not defined in the Penal Code. The implication of the lock language suggests access to the handgun should be difficult without properly opening the lock. While this page cannot recommend brands or models, both hard-sided and soft-sided gun cases and other 'substantial' enclosures which can be locked would seem to fulfill the requirements of the law. In short if the weapon could be manipulated to fire in the container or does not pass the “six year old” test of entry it may not be in compliance i.e.: paper bag with lock – violation.
Fully enclosed
Fully enclosed is not defined in the Penal Code. This language does disallow the use of only a trigger lock or cable lock; locks without the fully-enclosing containers are not locked containers.
Ammunition in the locked container is legal
So long as the handgun is itself unloaded, ammunition in the same container does not make the handgun loaded.
“Some gun owners may be more comfortable transporting ammunition in a separate container, or a separate compartment of the locked container, but this is not required by current law.” CHP FAQ website 2010

Kyle1886
05-06-2010, 10:57 AM
Tagged (for reference).

Decoligny
05-06-2010, 11:18 AM
Yea, it's legal but the police prefer you not do it. Might as well keep them separated to not have to deal with the hassle.

Gun ownership, Yea it's legal but the police prefer you not do it. Might as well not buy one and not have to deal with the hassle. :rolleyes:

advocatusdiaboli
05-06-2010, 1:17 PM
I am curious: is an unloaded pistol with a loaded magazine in a fanny pack with a lock on the two zippers locking the compartment containing the pistol and magazine a legal carry? If so, that's how I'll roll absent CCW.

I've been searching here and not really found _the_ express definitive answer. In Illinois, they do it without a lock because no lock is required. So I guessing it's legal--the gray area for me is it's on my person--I am wearing it. That's what gives me pause even though I don't see anything about that aspect in the law.

GrizzlyGuy
05-06-2010, 3:26 PM
I am curious: is an unloaded pistol with a loaded magazine in a fanny pack with a lock on the two zippers locking the compartment containing the pistol and magazine a legal carry? If so, that's how I'll roll absent CCW.

I've been searching here and not really found _the_ express definitive answer. In Illinois, they do it without a lock because no lock is required. So I guessing it's legal--the gray area for me is it's on my person--I am wearing it. That's what gives me pause even though I don't see anything about that aspect in the law.

You are describing LUCC (Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry). It is often legal, but sometimes it isn't. The key to it being legal is finding an applicable 12025 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12025.html) exemption in 12026 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.html), 12026.1 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.1.html), 12026.2 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12026.2.html) or 12027 (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12027.html) for the specific situation (destination/purpose/your means of travel/your citizenship status) in which you wish to carry in that manner.

Some examples of when it would not be legal are here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4187731#post4187731) and here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=4199822&postcount=13).