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Apeman88
03-05-2006, 2:26 AM
found this article (attached) from DOJ and it states they are aware of all the non-list receivers coming into CA and are planning to update the list very soon. Also stated is that even after non-listed receivers makes it on the list and after the owner registered it as an AW, it is still illegal to have any of the "evil" features listed on the PC section 12276.1. This is different than what I've been reading on a few threads on this issue and other forums. Even the FAQ on this forum (Paragraph 11) states once a weapon is declared as an AW... owner can add detachable magazine and more. What's up with this??

I'm new to building AR. Anyone know more about this?

The letter was found at http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ar15notice.pdf

Apeman88

xenophobe
03-05-2006, 2:51 AM
Welcome to Calguns...


Ummm... Sorry if this is a little harsh, but first check this (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php).



Second... Read the FAQ again. It's at the top right, in red. The important part I'll provide for you here:


11. If my off-list receivers are declared as assault weapons, can I add “evil features” like pistol grips and folding stocks?

As of now, you should only have the intent of purchasing off-list lower receivers for the intended goal of making and using a legally-configured rifle. Any future declaration actions by DOJ are speculative; you prudently should ask for a “letter ruling” from DOJ (or see one on DOJ letterhead from someone you trust) on modifying your newly-registered lower receiver with any one or more characteristic features with a detachable magazine – and only after you receive your assault weapons registration for the particular firearm(s) in question back from the DOJ.

Read the STICKY thread entitled "Read This. Important. Off-list Ar/ak-related Updates..." (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=25788).

The important part:

It indeed appears that after these are declared as AWs, and registered (and registration is in your hands), there is no law banning adding SB23 'evil features'. There are no 'tiers' of assault weapon status, and 'manufacturing' is not be an issue, since the AW status was done by gov't fiat, and since this is not a reversible thing (i.e., removing features doesn't remove AW status from an identified/declared 'named' gun).


But:

* . . . just for safety's sake, your intent should NOT be buying these NOT for the intent/goal of having an AW. You should just really want a fixed mag AR rifle. If something else happens, good. (See AK comments below.) STFU otherwise.

* . . . before you do any SB23-listed features additions you (or someone here) should request/obtain a DOJ 'ruling letter' about this. DO NOT DO/ASK ABOUT THIS DURING THE 90-DAY REGISTRATION WINDOW. WAIT FOR BOTH YOUR REGISTRATION TO BE RETURNED, AND FOR THE WINDOW TO BE CLOSED FOR YOUR BRAND/MODEL COMBINATION.

NO ONE SHOULD SEND DOJ LETTERS ABOUT THIS WITHOUT COORDINATION HERE.


Then watch this (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php) again...


EDIT: I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but nobody here really knows any more than that. Your guess is as good as anyones at this point.

tenpercentfirearms
03-05-2006, 7:56 AM
That isn't harsh Xenophobe. Welcome to calguns.net. Spend some time using the search function and you will see every aspect of the legal lower happenings has been discussed at length. It is ok because you are new you didn't know about the search function. If you want, just spend some time reading through the old posts one page at a time. You will probably find more information than you care to know. Your kids won't know who you are anymore!

Apeman88
03-05-2006, 11:25 AM
Thanks for the info.... not harsh... I guess I'm reading and accepting only what I want to hear... haha. I'll catch up on more reading. Thanks again.

Apeman88

6172crew
03-05-2006, 11:37 AM
Listen to what they are saying:

there are some ar15s that you can add features to, then there are some other ar15 look-a-likes that you can add features to and lastly theer are ar15 that you cant have any features to even though its no different than teh look a like and that you cant have a detachable magazine.:confused:

WTF is that all about? The DOJ just need to update the ol' list and chock it up as "we were owned".:D

shopkeep
03-05-2006, 5:03 PM
WTF is that all about? The DOJ just need to update the ol' list and chock it up as "we were owned".:D

Based on their current speed and course of action I am fairly certain they already know they've been owned. A small group of internet forum dwellers put one over on them big time. Personally I don't understand their freak-out reaction to this whole episode.

We asked them about this: they said "yes it's legal". Why are they so surprised when 7 months after they wrote Blackrazor that it was legal that there's thousands comming into the state? They had 7 months to update the list after the letter they recieved from Blackrazor and now they've had almost a whole year.

Bill leaked the off-list lowers story to the media, no one cared. Conclusion: the California public considers the Assault Weapons problem "solved" and nobody cares anymore except the DOJ and a couple thousand Californians hoarding off-list lowers. Add to the list so we can move on from here.

On a side note, I just built up another lower this weekend :D! I was watching "Way of the Gun" again and I've been tempted to order that Galil ARM clone from Vulcan and build up a fixed mag Galil. Heck, I love my off-list ARs why not build some off-list Category 1 goodies everyone else is building G3s and FALs.

meathead
03-05-2006, 7:16 PM
Bill Its My Understanding Once Reg. These Can Not Have Evil Features They Have To Be Built W/o Flash Muzzle Ok No Bayo.lug Has To Be Cut Off The Pin Will Be Removeable For 10 Rnd. Mag Only No Collasp.stock. Ive Done Many Sales To Leo.hope All Is Buying The Correct Uppers Have A Nice Day
Mike

RRangel
03-05-2006, 7:22 PM
Please do some more reading. There are no tiers of assault weapon in California. There is no crime commited if you add so called "evil features" to a newly registered "assault weapon". The CA DOJ can't just create crimes out of thin air when there is no law to support them.

Bill Its My Understanding Once Reg. These Can Not Have Evil Features They Have To Be Built W/o Flash Muzzle Ok No Bayo.lug Has To Be Cut Off The Pin Will Be Removeable For 10 Rnd. Mag Only No Collasp.stock. Ive Done Many Sales To Leo.hope All Is Buying The Correct Uppers Have A Nice Day
Mike

Charliegone
03-05-2006, 7:38 PM
That isn't harsh Xenophobe. Welcome to calguns.net. Spend some time using the search function and you will see every aspect of the legal lower happenings has been discussed at length. It is ok because you are new you didn't know about the search function. If you want, just spend some time reading through the old posts one page at a time. You will probably find more information than you care to know. Your kids won't know who you are anymore!

Yeah he's right that isn't harsh.. this is

READ THE F***** FAQ IN RED YOU S***HEAD! GEEZ!:eek:
haha jk man, welcome to calguns:D

ohsmily
03-05-2006, 7:44 PM
Bill Its My Understanding Once Reg. These Can Not Have Evil Features They Have To Be Built W/o Flash Muzzle Ok No Bayo.lug Has To Be Cut Off The Pin Will Be Removeable For 10 Rnd. Mag Only No Collasp.stock. Ive Done Many Sales To Leo.hope All Is Buying The Correct Uppers Have A Nice Day
Mike

NICE, so completely wrong on a few levels. BAYONET LUGS AREN'T EVEN REGULATED BY CA LAW. THEY ARE NOT RESTRICTED.

And they are correct that there are no tiers...

MEATHEAD...

meathead
03-05-2006, 7:50 PM
Admin I Hope The Leo Range Masters That I Deal With Is Incorrect I Am No Lawer Nor A Typer But Smart Enough To Not Put Evil Features That Were Banned Earyler On New Lowers I Have Been Insp By Doj And Atf This Year I Usually Dont Respond Much To A Lot Of The Chatter That Gos On Here And Dont Want To See Lots Of Money Spent On Evil Feat. That Mite Not Be Usabble Once Reg.begins

blkA4alb
03-05-2006, 7:56 PM
i figured it would be alright since this thread wont be going much of anywhere and bayonet lugs were mentioned. a couple years ago i was at the range with my yugo sks and for fun i decided to put the bayonet out, another shooter came over and told me that it was legal to have the bayonet but not to have it extended. ive never seen any laws pertaining to this, so any thoughts?

blacklisted
03-05-2006, 7:58 PM
i figured it would be alright since this thread wont be going much of anywhere and bayonet lugs were mentioned. a couple years ago i was at the range with my yugo sks and for fun i decided to put the bayonet out, another shooter came over and told me that it was legal to have the bayonet but not to have it extended. ive never seen any laws pertaining to this, so any thoughts?

Completely false!

Once, I had some old guy at the range tell my Grandfather that my SKS was illegal because of the bayonet and flash hider (which is actually a muzzle brake) when I was out checking my target. He was actually acting as RSO that day. I had a good laugh when I heard about it.

blkA4alb
03-05-2006, 8:03 PM
Completely false!

Once, I had some old guy at the range tell my Grandfather that my SKS was illegal because of the bayonet and flash hider (which is actually a muzzle brake) when I was out checking my target. He was actually acting as RSO that day. I had a good laugh when I heard about it.
good, i didnt think there was anything wrong with it. to anyone else with a yugo sks, how many shooters have you POd with the "muzzle brake" on it? it likes to spit fire and particles sideways. whenever i shoot it i also have to set up another target to deflect the shells from hitting ther person to my right:D.i used to get quite a few nasty stares from some of the 100 yard benchrest-fire-one-shot-a-day guys.

xenophobe
03-05-2006, 8:18 PM
Sure, people are going to stare at you like you're crazy if you're shooting with your bayonet extended/on. With good reason to! haha :p But it's fully legal.

FWIW, I've shot several of my SKS's, Mosin Nagant M44s, and even my Colt AR-15 with a bayonet at the range... no biggie.

blacklisted
03-05-2006, 9:17 PM
good, i didnt think there was anything wrong with it. to anyone else with a yugo sks, how many shooters have you POd with the "muzzle brake" on it? it likes to spit fire and particles sideways. whenever i shoot it i also have to set up another target to deflect the shells from hitting ther person to my right:D.i used to get quite a few nasty stares from some of the 100 yard benchrest-fire-one-shot-a-day guys.

Is this the same one you have?
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b343/ebolamonkey/muzzlebreak.jpg

blkA4alb
03-05-2006, 9:18 PM
Is this the same one you have?
yep thats it, but im planning on knocking that whole front section with the grenade launcher/front sight etc off and putting a red dot on it instead. ARs got me distracted...

Apeman88
03-05-2006, 9:35 PM
Please do some more reading. There are no tiers of assault weapon in California. There is no crime commited if you add so called "evil features" to a newly registered "assault weapon". The CA DOJ can't just create crimes out of thin air when there is no law to support them.

Now I'm all confused... the main reason I started this tread is I've been reading conflicting threads... Yes I'm a newbie but have spent the past month reading on your forum as well as others. Read the FAQ a few times too. While I understand nothing is concrete until final word from DOJ, I'm reading a bunch of treads from here and other forums from people "waiting" for their reciever to be listed to register as a AW so they may legally install "evil" features on them... even your quote above states once a weapon is registered as an assult weapon, evil features are okay. But the link to the DOJ letter I posted states none of the "evil features are legal even after AW registration.

I really don't care for most of the evil features... but I do want to make sure I am doing everything I can in accordance to the law thus trying to eduate myself as much as possible. I like to build/modify things... so my only reason to get an off-list reciever is to build a gun I like... plus I hate the way an AR looks with the magazine well welded up.

So people... please don;t give me more sh1t for bringing this up... So far this topic is still unclear to me even AFTER reading all the treads I can find and the FAQ 3 times... and I can't be the only one... or am I?:confused:

Ken

ohsmily
03-05-2006, 9:41 PM
BY THE CURRENT LAW ON THE BOOKS, IF A LOWER IS ADDED TO THE LIST, IT CAN HAVE SB23 FEATURES....BUT, THE DOJ ISSUED THAT MEMO THAT ISN'T LAW OR BINDING STATING THAT THEY CAN'T....BUT, THAT POLICY WILL NOT STAND UP IN COURT.

THAT IS THE DEAL.

There are a few paths the DOJ and the state can take. But if a NEW LAW is passed (by the legislature) that states newly added AW's can't have SB23 features, then that changes everything and then newly added lowers can't have the features (if they are added after the new law).

GOT IT??? forget the memo for now b/c A) the memo is NOT law and B) the lowers haven't been added yet.

blkA4alb
03-05-2006, 9:44 PM
Now I'm all confused... the main reason I started this tread is I've been reading conflicting threads... Yes I'm a newbie but have spent the past month reading on your forum as well as others. Read the FAQ a few times too. While I understand nothing is concrete until final word from DOJ, I'm reading a bunch of treads from here and other forums from people "waiting" for their reciever to be listed to register as a AW so they may legally install "evil" features on them... even your quote above states once a weapon is registered as an assult weapon, evil features are okay. But the link to the DOJ letter I posted states none of the "evil features are legal even after AW registration.

I really don't care for most of the evil features... but I do want to make sure I am doing everything I can in accordance to the law thus trying to eduate myself as much as possible. I like to build/modify things... so my only reason to get an off-list reciever is to build a gun I like... plus I hate the way an AR looks with the magazine well welded up.

So people... please don;t give me more sh1t for bringing this up... So far this topic is still unclear to me even AFTER reading all the treads I can find and the FAQ 3 times... and I can't be the only one... or am I?:confused:

Ken
when we say we are waiting for the lowers to be listed, we are waiting for the DOJ to classify them as AWs. as of right now the lowers are just the same as any other rifle you would buy. IF and WHEN the DOJ lists them as AWs, it would allow us to add the "evil" features. legally when they are AWs there is no such thing as an "evil" feature (besides of course 16" barrel and 30" overall). we just say that to mean all the things that we cant have now (detachable mag.) i hope that clears some of it up.

xenophobe
03-05-2006, 9:49 PM
There is NO LAW that states once a (named) California Assault Weapon is registered, that it must have any specific feature or not, just by the very fact that the Manufacturer and Model are named make even the stripped receiver an Assault weapon.

There is NO LAW stating that the additions or removal of such features identified in Penal Code Section 12276.1 from a Assault Weapon identified in 12276 would make any named AW any less or more of an AW, and that if you own a named AW, it is an assault weapon regardless of the features it may have.

Despite that, the CA DOJ Attorney General's office states that you may not add features to these newly named 12276 AWs, and they will enforce this in the registration process.

So, the DOJ says you may not. The law does not allow for this interpretation.

So, you must comply with DOJ, until they admit that they were wrong, or until they lose a court battle.

Adding those features to these new receivers could cost you being the scape goat, stand up guy, test case, etc... and will cost you LOTS of money, possible confiscation of your firearms, and possible jail time.

So, the law doesn't say that you can't, but you shouldn't until you get approved, or until there is some kind of court case that fights this very thing.

NONE of this matters until your receivers are listed, and until after they are registered.

I hope that helps.

ohsmily
03-05-2006, 10:03 PM
+1 (in addition to what I said) except, it is "scape goat" not "escape goat". :D

xenophobe
03-05-2006, 10:04 PM
+1 to what you said too... I was typing mine before you posted yours. lol fixed. ;)

Apeman88
03-05-2006, 10:21 PM
Thanks guys... appreciate the clearification... now it's CRYSTAL CLEAR!!! :)

So for now... I'll be a good boy and forget all the "evil" temptations... at least the ones that are gun related. ;)

Ken

Crazed_SS
03-06-2006, 7:55 AM
The DOJ isnt completely inept.

They'll most likely have legislation to back up the whole Category of AW thing. That's probably what's taking so long to list all the lowers as AW's. They're most likely working on legislation and collecting up as many lower manufacturers as they can find to add to the list. When this happens, everyone gonna be stuck with a gimped rifle.

gose
03-06-2006, 8:17 AM
The DOJ aren't _that_ stupid, they know if they list a few lowers they've lost. Once a few (or a lot) get on the list and people get to register them, the interest of buying the still unlisted ones will sky rocket. The DOJ is clever enough to not want to play the catch-up game forever.

My guess is that the delay is because they want to make sure whatever legislation they have in their back pocket will pass. This is still fairly unknown to a lot of people, once it hits the legislation it will be all over the place and if the legislation doesn't pass they're in even deeper processed animal food.

That's my guess... add it to the list of other guesses ;)

KenV
03-06-2006, 9:19 AM
<snip> just spend some time reading through the old posts one page at a time. You will probably find more information than you care to know. Your kids won't know who you are anymore!

THERE's a truth and a half. I have ruined more bowls of perfectly good cereal reading this site than I care to count. I get caught up in reading and let a perfectly good Special K/Frosted Flakes blend turn to paste all too often.

K

buckallred
03-06-2006, 8:35 PM
IF and WHEN the DOJ lists them as AWs, it would allow us to add the "evil" features. legally when they are AWs there is no such thing as an "evil" feature (besides of course 16" barrel and 30" overall). we just say that to mean all the things that we cant have now (detachable mag.) i hope that clears some of it up.

I disagree: CA Penal Code Section 12276.1 DEFINES any rifle having the "evil features" as an "assault weapon." Thus any rifle that has these "evil features" IS AN "ASSAULT WEAPON" whether it's named in the statute or not.

Any "off-list" lower that has a detachable mag and a thumbhole pistol grip, etc. is already an "assault weapon."

Disagree? I am all ears. I hope I am wrong, in fact.

PIRATE14
03-06-2006, 8:55 PM
Any stripped off-list lower has zero charateristics of a AW.....period.

You've got to get off the "EVIL" word........

buckallred
03-06-2006, 9:09 PM
Any stripped off-list lower has zero charateristics of a AW.....period.

You've got to get off the "EVIL" word........

So if you take a stripped lower and add a detachable mag and a pistol grip . . it's an assault weapon, as defined by 12276.1.

The best you could hope for is to build a fixed-mag rifle with a pistol grip, etc, from your stripped, "off-list" lower.

Which can already legally be bought in CA. Or something extremely similar, anyway.

So unless I am missing something, I don't see what the fuss is about. You can build something you can already buy. . and if you add the "12276.1 features" (whether they are evil or not), you risk going to jail.

PIRATE14
03-06-2006, 9:19 PM
So if you take a stripped lower and add a detachable mag and a pistol grip . . it's an assault weapon, as defined by 12276.1.

The best you could hope for is to build a fixed-mag rifle with a pistol grip, etc, from your stripped, "off-list" lower.

Which can already legally be bought in CA. Or something extremely similar, anyway.

So unless I am missing something, I don't see what the fuss is about. You can build something you can already buy. . and if you add the "12276.1 features" (whether they are evil or not), you risk going to jail.

Well you are missing a lot......most fixed 10 rd mag rifles u can buy now do not compare w/ an actual rcvr that hasn't been maimed.....have you looked at FAB-10/Vulcan?

The best you could hope for is that they go on the list and you can build as you please......but that's up to you........

buckallred
03-06-2006, 9:32 PM
Well you are missing a lot......most fixed 10 rd mag rifles u can buy now do not compare w/ an actual rcvr that hasn't been maimed.....have you looked at FAB-10/Vulcan?

The best you could hope for is that they go on the list and you can build as you please......but that's up to you........


I woudn't deny that the new, "off-list" receivers are higher quality, or I will take your word for it, anyway.

But some people on the net seem to be saying that you will be able to build a rifle with a pistol grip and a detachable mag, liek a "real" AR-15, AK-47, etc. like citizens in other states can have.

It seems to me that you will be put in jail if you build a rifle from an "off-list" receiver that has a detachable mag and a pistol grip or other feature listed in 12276.1. The AG has said that adding those features is prohibited. And as long as those features are prohibited, I don't see anything to get all that excited about.

blkA4alb
03-06-2006, 9:39 PM
I woudn't deny that the new, "off-list" receivers are higher quality, or I will take your word for it, anyway.

But some people on the net seem to be saying that you will be able to build a rifle with a pistol grip and a detachable mag, liek a "real" AR-15, AK-47, etc. like citizens in other states can have.

It seems to me that you will be put in jail if you build a rifle from an "off-list" receiver that has a detachable mag and a pistol grip or other feature listed in 12276.1. The AG has said that adding those features is prohibited. And as long as those features are prohibited, I don't see anything to get all that excited about.
well what we're excited about is the possibility that if they get listed we will already have an AW, therefor we can have a fully working detachable mag ar-15/ak-47. for a couple hundred bucks the chance is by far worth it.

PIRATE14
03-06-2006, 9:41 PM
I woudn't deny that the new, "off-list" receivers are higher quality, or I will take your word for it, anyway.

But some people on the net seem to be saying that you will be able to build a rifle with a pistol grip and a detachable mag, liek a "real" AR-15, AK-47, etc. like citizens in other states can have.

It seems to me that you will be put in jail if you build a rifle from an "off-list" receiver that has a detachable mag and a pistol grip or other feature listed in 12276.1. The AG has said that adding those features is prohibited. And as long as those features are prohibited, I don't see anything to get all that excited about.

I guess your level of excitment might vary from others.....but it's been almost 6 years since anyone has seen a real rcvr in CALI....let alone able to buy one legally.
Some guys like the idea of having a CALI rifle here and the ability to convert to real type when they shoot in AZ or NV...etc.
Yes if you build a AW...u will get in trouble so stay w/in the law