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GunLover
05-03-2010, 11:22 AM
I have a Glock 36, Kimber CDP Pro and a Full size Kimber eclipse.
I wanted to buy some defense ammo when I carry and at home. I was wondering if a round like GS 230gr was a good all around ammunition for all these pistols. Or should I get a +p for the G36 and use the GS 230 for the 1911s. If I use the +p for the G36 will the extra recoil be worth the extra energy?
Thanks,
G

Snapping Twig
05-03-2010, 1:43 PM
FWIW, the .45acp isn't meant to be magnumized - not sure that's a real word.

I too shot a bunch of +P in my acp, but the sad truth is that it isn't worth it, tough on the frame.

I roll my own, so it's easy to vary bullet weights and powder charges to try different things.

The acp is powerful enough for the intended task in its original 230g, 850fps format.

Typically a steel frame pistol is OK for +P, anything else, not so much.

You want higher velocity, go for it, but the bottom line is that if you can't get the job done with standard velocity acp, perhaps a different caliber is in order.

GunLover
05-03-2010, 2:20 PM
I reload my own too. I use reloads for pratice. When it comes down to it everyone wants to carry the best performing ammunition available for their caliber in SD situations. I prefer factory high quality ammunition for when I carry. So i will not be putting many factory or +p rounds thru my pistols when I go to the range. I cant afford to shoot mass amounts of factory +p ammo in my pistols anyway. I was wondering weather the 230 Gr suffers in performance in a 3.75 inch barrel enough that i should I go +P when I carry.
For those of you who have shorter barrel 45s what do you carry? I did shoot my friends Kimber Ultra with some Doubletapp 185gr and it recoiled much harder than my 185gr reloads or 230gr WWB. Fast follow up shots will be more difficult. Is it worth more energy?

Johnny661
05-03-2010, 2:38 PM
I only use the factory standard pressure 230 gr ammo for my XD45 Compact & MC Operator 1911, for HD purposes I dont see a need for the +P ammo.

Bug Splat
05-03-2010, 2:59 PM
I only use the factory standard pressure 230 gr ammo for my XD45 Compact & MC Operator 1911, for HD purposes I dont see a need for the +P ammo.

+1. 230gr factory ammo marketed as defensive ammo. Not worth the legal worries making my own. The numbers with standard pressure ammo will give you more than enough penetration.

CalNRA
05-03-2010, 3:39 PM
if your HD ammo is +p and says "Self Defense" or something like that, I don't see why not. Most 45 auto handguns are fine with +p ammo anyway.

For 1911s, use a Wilson recoil buffer. problem solved. It works fine with all my plinking rounds. :shrug:

Knauga
05-03-2010, 5:08 PM
I use 230gr +P JHP rounds in my 45's. They are 3.5" barrels so I want to make back some of the velocity that is lost due to the shorter barrel.

I wouldn't use them in alloy frames or tupperware, but in a steel frame pistol it isn't an issue.

FiveSeven
05-03-2010, 5:56 PM
FWIW, the .45acp isn't meant to be magnumized - not sure that's a real word.

I too shot a bunch of +P in my acp, but the sad truth is that it isn't worth it, tough on the frame.

I roll my own, so it's easy to vary bullet weights and powder charges to try different things.

The acp is powerful enough for the intended task in its original 230g, 850fps format.

Typically a steel frame pistol is OK for +P, anything else, not so much.

You want higher velocity, go for it, but the bottom line is that if you can't get the job done with standard velocity acp, perhaps a different caliber is in order.

Several things, Glock manual does state not to use +P ammo, some other manufacturer like Beretta do. Glock can use all +P and +P+ ammo and that's every single Glock model.
Polymer/plastic frame is actually better then alloy since the flex transfers and absorbs energy better. It can withstand much more flex then alloy can withstand before cracking.
Since .45ACP was designed for 5" barrel it is a subsonic cartridge and has muzzle velocity of 835fps out of five inch barrel... Now, since Glock 36 has 3.6" barrel 230gr bullet will be about 675 fps and in my opinion its borderline unsatisfactory. In order to maximize .45ACP in a short barrel handgun you must use 185gr+P or even 165gr +P. And speaking of +P ammo in .45, it's only 23,000 PSI vs 21,000 standard pressure. Much less pressure then what .40S&W or 9mm +P operates.

So yes, for a short barrel .45, +P is a must in my book especially for a self defense load.

Rudolf the Red
05-03-2010, 8:45 PM
^^^^

That.

E. Fudd
05-04-2010, 8:44 AM
Fwiw, the Gold Dot 230 +p 'Short Barrel' load has quite a bit more recoil than the std. velocity version in the G36. Makes it quite a handful to control. I prefer the std. myself in the G36 for faster recovery and follow shots.

Not so much a big deal in G30's or G21's.

Army GI
05-04-2010, 8:53 AM
I always say that if you need more power, get a bigger caliber.

In this case, go with a 10mm.

FiveSeven
05-04-2010, 9:38 AM
I always say that if you need more power, get a bigger caliber.

In this case, go with a 10mm.

10mm is not bigger than .45ACP, it's actually smaller .40 (10mm) vs .45.
People who like or prefer .45 actually like it mainly because of that "bigger" caliber or bigger hole.
The whole point to this discussion is that .45ACP traditional 230gr bullet was not designed for a short barrel and looses velocity quite a bit since its already a low velocity round. That is why +P ammo in a lighter gr are recommended and not because the round needs more power.

Johnny661
05-04-2010, 12:30 PM
I am going to get a couple of boxes of these to see how my XD45 Compact likes them.
Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection - 45 ACP
Part Number Cartridge Bullet Wt. Bullet Type
23975 45 ACP 230gr GDHP-SB
Velocity (fps)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Test Barrel Length
820 783 749 4"

Army GI
05-04-2010, 1:40 PM
10mm is not bigger than .45ACP, it's actually smaller .40 (10mm) vs .45.
People who like or prefer .45 actually like it mainly because of that "bigger" caliber or bigger hole.
The whole point to this discussion is that .45ACP traditional 230gr bullet was not designed for a short barrel and looses velocity quite a bit since its already a low velocity round. That is why +P ammo in a lighter gr are recommended and not because the round needs more power.

Thank you captain obvious. I didn't think I would need to spell it all out, but I guess I do to avoid getting "schooled".

Yes, I know .45 is larger in diameter than the 10mm. The .45 is 11.43mm or so compared to the 10mm. The whole point I was trying to make was that the 10mm is also much more powerful in terms of kinetic energy and penetration which leaves the .45 ACP in the dust in standard barrel lengths or shorter barrels.

cineski
05-04-2010, 1:44 PM
All modern firearms are +P rated. Federal HST 230 grain +P is a very potent round if you can find it. The G36 should handle it just fine but will be jumpy. Stick to standard pressure for target practice. And yes, 200 grain 10mm is a potent little beast! Standard pressure 45 will not penetrate as much as 230
+P or the heavier 10mm rounds.

GunLover
05-04-2010, 1:57 PM
I guess I will buy a box of P+ and standard in 185gr and see which I can handle better in recoil and follow up shots ect. The g36 barrel lenght is 3.78 inches.

FiveSeven
05-04-2010, 3:10 PM
Thank you captain obvious. I didn't think I would need to spell it all out, but I guess I do to avoid getting "schooled".

Yes, I know .45 is larger in diameter than the 10mm. The .45 is 11.43mm or so compared to the 10mm. The whole point I was trying to make was that the 10mm is also much more powerful in terms of kinetic energy and penetration which leaves the .45 ACP in the dust in standard barrel lengths or shorter barrels.

They're both handgun cartridges, with that in mind they are pretty much equal in self defense against humans, not bears.
.45 can penetrate as deep as 17 +" inside the human body and that is plenty enough but it does so with larger diameter wound channel.
The most powerful 10mm load out there does not inflict rifle like wounds so even if it penetrates a little more, is it worth all that extra recoil and muzzle blast?

Once again something VERY obvious. Handgun cartridge takes someone out of the gunfight in one of the two ways. Central nervous system disabled which is instantaneous or make enough holes where there's enough blood loss and body goes into a shock (less preferred option in life or death situation). That is where larger diameter bullet has an advantage.

With all that said, I have nothing against any particular handgun caliber. I believe training and your mindset is much more important in a self defense scenario.

bigmark408
05-04-2010, 3:25 PM
Black talon or Ranger.

pyromensch
05-04-2010, 8:21 PM
with all the "caliber" and other info going around, and the guy just asked "+p, or not", you could also argue 357 mag, in a remington hollowpoint. but that does not answer his question. for HD go with the +p, it most likely would be a "ONE TIME" thing, and the most power, at the largest "caliber", would be the best

MarioS
05-04-2010, 10:28 PM
As another member mentioned, I would go with +P for the short barreled guns to make up for the lost velocity. Standard loads out of a short barrel just don't reach speeds fast enough to produce optimal expansion/results. I would just go with +P for all your .45 guns that you intend on using for personal protection. It would be great for the short barreled guns and you'd have even more punch out of your longer barreled guns.

The Speer GDHP 200gr. +P stuff packs a punch.

Barkoff
05-04-2010, 10:32 PM
+1. 230gr factory ammo marketed as defensive ammo. Not worth the legal worries making my own. The numbers with standard pressure ammo will give you more than enough penetration.

Are you guys shooting ball or HP?

I kind of had the feeling a lot of folks were moving towards the 200 grains.

jumpthestack
05-05-2010, 7:20 AM
Bear in mind, if you normally shoot standard pressure ammo for practice, and you use +P ammo for defense, the recoil and muzzle rise will feel different from how it normally feels during practice, thus possibly hindering your accuracy. I would say if you're going to use +P then you should shoot a lot of +P to make sure you're used to it. Otherwise stick with standard pressure.

FiveSeven
05-05-2010, 8:01 AM
Bear in mind, if you normally shoot standard pressure ammo for practice, and you use +P ammo for defense, the recoil and muzzle rise will feel different from how it normally feels during practice, thus possibly hindering your accuracy. I would say if you're going to use +P then you should shoot a lot of +P to make sure you're used to it. Otherwise stick with standard pressure.

Not entirely true. During life or death situation people usually don't feel all those factors. Generally you are so focused on the threat itself that everything else does not register with the brain. It's one of those survival instincts were built with, that is why training is so important, the mindset goes in to auto mode. That is if there's that info and motor skills are there to begin with and honed enough.
For range practice it would not hurt to shoot +P here and there but some calibers make it more, shall I say not so much fun to shoot in a compact frame handgun even in standard loads. One of the reason why I like .45ACP, very manageable big caliber even in a small gun.

Once again, as some people don't think is important. Short barrels were not designed with "standard" pressure .45ACP. If you rely on short barrel .45 for personal protection get +P ammo, preferably in a lighter gr as well.

GunLover
05-05-2010, 8:15 AM
I was thinking about gold dot because of the low price but then i seen this

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/45_200grGDHP.htm

I guess I will order some 185gr double tapp ammunition to try out.

FiveSeven
05-05-2010, 8:16 AM
Order as much as you can afford before the new law takes affect.
Midway USA is where I get most of my ammo.

-hanko
05-05-2010, 9:39 AM
... Once again, as some people don't think is important. Short barrels were not designed with "standard" pressure .45ACP.
:confused:

If not designed for 'standard' pressure .45acp, what were the Combat Commander, Commander, and Officers (both steel and lightweight) designed for??

As another poster posted...practice with the same ammo you keep in the weapon for hd/sd.;)

-hanko

FiveSeven
05-05-2010, 10:15 AM
:confused:

If not designed for 'standard' pressure .45acp, what were the Combat Commander, Commander, and Officers (both steel and lightweight) designed for??

As another poster posted...practice with the same ammo you keep in the weapon for hd/sd.;)

-hanko

Just because someone decided to make shorter/smaller gun that is based on the original design does not mean it won't fire or there was a whole lot of research or ballistic science data was involved in it...... Just like 5.6mm was designed and is the most affective in 19 +" barrel. In 11" barrel AR pistol that round will function just fine but there's a world of a difference when it comes to ballistics.
As to practice with what you intend to use for SD, If it works for you and you have enough $ for regular practice then knock yourself out, it wont hurt. But it's not necessary, if you know it functions flawlessly in your gun than its all that matters.

Army GI
05-05-2010, 10:18 AM
I guess I will buy a box of P+ and standard in 185gr and see which I can handle better in recoil and follow up shots ect. The g36 barrel lenght is 3.78 inches.

Try the 230gr first, you will be very disappointed with 185gr penetration. The kinetic energy figures and velocity look impressive on paper, but 185gr 45 bullets are quite shallow penetrators.

They can still kill of course, but 200+ gr is better.

FiveSeven
05-05-2010, 10:25 AM
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=313054

.45 ACP Corbon 185 gr +P Barnes XPB JHP; ave vel=1097 fps (1911); gel cal=9.0cm@576fps
BG: pen=16.8" RD=0.65", RL=0.51", RW=185.3gr
4LD: pen=16.5", RD=0.66", RL=0.51", RW=185.9gr

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/45_Auto_185gr_Corbon_Box.html

Army GI
05-05-2010, 10:27 AM
They're both handgun cartridges, with that in mind they are pretty much equal in self defense against humans, not bears.
.45 can penetrate as deep as 17 +" inside the human body and that is plenty enough but it does so with larger diameter wound channel.
The most powerful 10mm load out there does not inflict rifle like wounds so even if it penetrates a little more, is it worth all that extra recoil and muzzle blast?

Once again something VERY obvious. Handgun cartridge takes someone out of the gunfight in one of the two ways. Central nervous system disabled which is instantaneous or make enough holes where there's enough blood loss and body goes into a shock (less preferred option in life or death situation). That is where larger diameter bullet has an advantage.

With all that said, I have nothing against any particular handgun caliber. I believe training and your mindset is much more important in a self defense scenario.

Don't mind me, I'm just grumpy. Sorry for the terse reply, I was being a douche.

A couple of things though:

*Where did you get your figures for handgun penetration? Ballistics gel? Ballistics gel is great, but 17" is not realistic for a human body at all. You have more than just flesh, you got bone, ligaments, organs, membranes, muscles, and all that other stuff. Handgun bullets penetrate a lot less in actual human bodies.

*I agree, 100% 10mm penetrates only a little more than the .45 but vastly increases muzzle blast and recoil. Totally not worth it. I think it's a silly round that defeats the whole point of auto pistols which is to have a weapon that you can fire rapidly with little recoil and fast follow up shots. It's still a fun round to dink around with though if you're a reloader. But I would never use it as a self defense round. I've recently become a 9mm guy:)

*Again, I agree. It's all about shot placement, how fast you can hit him, and how many times you can hit him. I'd rather be able to get 2 in the chest and one in the head with a .380 than completely miss all 6 shots with a .44 magnum.

FiveSeven
05-05-2010, 10:33 AM
Sorry, your right........ I actually meant ballistic jell. When it come to human body or even an animal there are other factors like you mention, not only that but also the different angles + possible barriers.
FBI recommends 12" minimal and pretty much most popular handgun calibers with good quality HP can do that.

GunLover
05-05-2010, 11:04 AM
The two carry guns I will be using is a G36 3.78in barrel and a CDP PRO 4in barrel. After the info I collected I was thinking of 185 +p for the G36. But the CDP kinda caught in the middle of full size and compact. Should I go standard pressure or +P in the CDP? Thanks to all for your imput.

FiveSeven
05-05-2010, 4:20 PM
^
+ P for Self defense for sure.....Even for 4" barrel as 1" is a bigger factor then .02" difference between the G36 and CDP PRO.

B Strong
05-05-2010, 4:25 PM
There's not enough benefit with .45 ACP +P to justify the cost and increased wear.

If you use a standard pressure round with a well designed HP (which is about all of them these days) in the 5" barrel it will do the job that they're intended to do if you can do your part.

For a shorter barrel, go with a lighter weight projectile - I have always liked the old 200 grain Speer.