View Full Version : Gun Rights Group Forms in India!

05-01-2010, 6:38 PM
Non-computer people: the next time you're dealing w/customer service, and their is a lull, ask them how's the weather where they are and if they say they're in India, mention that you heard about the Mumbai terrorist attack and how some Indians have formed Indians for Guns forum (http://indiansforguns.com/viewforum.php?f=3) and National Association for Gun Rights India so that Indians can protect themselves against violence.

Computer people: if you know any Indians on the job, either in real life or online, politely inquire sometime if they're interested in guns, esp for self-defense, or concerned about violent crime. If so, be sure to mention to them the web forum Indians for Guns and the new organization the National Association for Gun Rights India.

I encourage every Calgunner to bookmark www.indiansforguns.com in case they deal with someone from or in India.

From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/31/AR2010013102079.html
New groups mobilize as Indians embrace the right to bear arms

By Rama Lakshmi
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, February 1, 2010

In the land of Mahatma Gandhi, Indian gun owners are coming out of the shadows for the first time to mobilize, U.S.-style, against proposed new curbs on bearing arms.

When gunmen attacked 10 sites in Mumbai in November 2008, including two five-star hotels and a train station, Mumbai resident Kumar Verma sat at home glued to the television, feeling outraged and unsafe.

Before the end of December, Verma and his friends had applied for gun licenses. He read up on India's gun laws and joined the Web forum Indians for Guns. When he got his license seven months later, he bought a black, secondhand, snub-nose Smith & Wesson revolver with a walnut grip.

"I feel safe wearing it in my ankle holster every day," said Verma, 27, who runs a family business selling fire-protection systems. "I have a right to self-protection, because random street crime and terrorism have increased. The police cannot be there for everybody all the time. Now I am a believer in the right to keep and bear arms."

Verma said he plans to join the recently formed National Association for Gun Rights India to lobby against new gun controls that the government has proposed, blaming the proliferation of both licensed and illegal weapons for a rise in crime.

Although India's 1959 Arms Act gives citizens the legal right to own and carry guns, it is not a right enshrined in the country's constitution. Getting a license is a cumbersome process, and guns cannot be bought over the counter -- requirements that gun owners describe as hangovers from the colonial past, when the British rulers disarmed their Indian subjects to head off rebellion.

In December, the Ministry of Home Affairs proposed several amendments to the Arms Act that would make it even harder to acquire a gun license, restrict the number of people eligible for nationwide licenses and curtail the amount of ammunition a gun owner can amass.

An official said that the ministry has called for public input. But in the meantime, the proposals have given rise to a nascent gun rights movement modeled on the strategies of the United States' National Rifle Association and echoing its rhetoric of civil rights, dignity and self-protection.

"We are outraged. We are not murderers. Instead of going after real criminals, the government is indulging in window dressing by bringing in gun control laws that target law-abiding citizens who have licensed guns," said Abhijeet Singh, 37, a software engineer who started Indians for Guns and is the coordinator of the new gun rights association.

"We want to remove the stigma on licensed gun owners," Singh said. According to the National Crime Records Bureau, 87 percent of murders by firearms in India in 2007 involved illegally held guns.

There is no official tally of legal gun owners, but Singh cited a rough estimate of 4 million to 5 million.

Last week, the National Association for Gun Rights India began meeting with lawmakers and consulting lawyers in a bid to stall the proposals. The group's president is a 39-year-old lawmaker, Naveen Jindal, who studied at the University of Texas business school in Dallas. Inspired by American students' displays of patriotism, Jindal earlier launched a successful campaign for Indians' right to display the national flag outside their homes and offices.

Indian security experts appear dismissive of the group's efforts. "There is no place for a gun rights movement in India," said Julius Ribeiro, a former police officer who comments on security issues. "That kind of debate may work in America, but it will not work here, because laws are misused and guns can easily fall into the wrong hands. It can get dangerous in India."

Gun rights advocates respond -- using language familiar to Americans -- that guns are a deterrent to crime.

"An armed society is a polite society," said Rahoul Rai, a member of the campaign. He said the movement also reflects the rise of an Indian middle class that can "voice its fears about rising crime, interpret the constitution to articulate their rights to self-protection and bring like-minded people together through technology."

Shahid Ahmad, who runs a Web site called the Gun Geek , said the process of getting a gun license in India is so burdensome that it encourages corruption. To hasten the process, he said, many applicants ask politicians to put in a word in their favor, or attempt to bribe officials and police officers.

To illustrate the point, gun advocates refer to a 2008 incident in the state of Madhya Pradesh. The clamor for gun licenses was so high, according to news media, that officials tried to induce men with large families to participate in a vasectomy program by promising a license in return.

05-01-2010, 6:43 PM
I already ask tech support if I'm talking to someone in India. If they say yes, I either hang up or ask for a number where I can talk to an American (and then hang up) and if they say no, I continue with my question.

I couldn't give a rat's *** about what the weather is like in India, let alone their political climate.

05-01-2010, 6:44 PM
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." - Gandhi

05-01-2010, 6:48 PM
U.N will NOT be happy about this, no sir!

05-01-2010, 7:01 PM
I couldn't give a rat's *** about what the weather is like in India, let alone their political climate.

You should, cause if you haven't noticed, there's a lot of highly educated Indians moving to CA legally. They do vote, and if they're anti-gun in India, don't you think they'll be anti-gun when they move here?

05-01-2010, 7:02 PM
I already ask tech support if I'm talking to someone in India. If they say yes, I either hang up or ask for a number where I can talk to an American (and then hang up) and if they say no, I continue with my question.

I couldn't give a rat's *** about what the weather is like in India, let alone their political climate.I have strong feelings re. the offshoring of American telephone support jobs to India and the Philippines; the offshoring of manufacturing jobs to China, SE Asia, and Mexico; and allowing illegal immigrants to pour over our borders virtually unhindered to take the few jobs that remain here.

But I also believe that the more countries that liberalize their gun rights the less anti pressure we'll experience from the U.N. or other organizations. Plus, the greater their RKBA in their own countries, the lower their own crime rates will be which will give them less motivation to move here.

05-01-2010, 7:08 PM
It's old news, but it's good to remind of it every now and then. When it comes to human rights worldwide, this is probably one of the most important events in a decade.

05-01-2010, 7:18 PM
Indians are, in fact, somewhat into guns, especially the upper classes.

Contrary to what many people would very incorrectly assume, hunting is allowed by Hinduism. Indians hunt. Just not cows.

India is quite a dangerous place. There are half a dozen simmering civil conflicts there, ranging from civil war to high-level banditry to sections of the country that the government just can't control. And I'm not even talking about Kashmir.

Indians do have quite a bit of guns. There are lots of armed private security people, but unfortunately they are armed with Enfields. And beyond that, they look quite untrained and undisciplined. The army, too, is a shambles. It took them hours to mount any kind of response to the Mumbai attack.

There is such lawlessness in India that I assume there is a well-supplied black market in guns, and also that people with money can pay their way out of gun laws.

They do have a discretionary CCW system, and permits are probably easier in most of India than they are in much of California.

The Mumbai attack was a real eye-opener, for Indians, and also for the many international corps doing business there. They could see, the time to get a response mobilized was almost a full day. It took about three days to get control of the situation. A handful of armed men totally disrupted the city for three days! It would have lasted about three minutes in Texas.

While local Indians may be able to pay their way out of gun regulations, corporations can't do the same thing, and so would like to get the law changed there so they can have their own security forces. Just a few Israeli security guys could have ended the Mumbai attacks very quickly, and the international corps there would gladly hire such services, if they could legally get the equipment they need.

I've seen all kinds of official, unofficial, and unknown gun-toting in India. It's quite a place, I must say. Somehow everything there is on the brink of tribal / caste wars, religious fervors, digestive meltdown, total chaos... and yet it somehow manages to continue to be wonderful and amazing.

05-02-2010, 4:06 AM
I couldn't give a rat's *** about what the weather is like in India, let alone their political climate.The politics of India are imported to here via the population, so you'd better care. Currently the Indian demographic contains a LOT of high $$$ earners so that's going to keep playing a big role in how things will be here. Far better it is for them to be on our side and we'd be wise to link up with them.

05-02-2010, 6:16 AM
I remember in the early 1990's there was an Indian owned store in my town and the guy working there would always talk about what it was like in India. I remember him saying "in my country, guns are illegal and it's much safer than in the USA." He made it sound like there was no need for them. I imagine he must have lived in a small village or something.