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Shintao
04-30-2010, 11:03 PM
So a buddy of mine keeps 3 HydraShocks at the top of his home defense mag, then bellow all TMJs. His theory is that if the guy doesn't go down with the first 3 shots he may have body armor and therefore the TMJs will take him down.

I said if a guy breaking in to a random house is wearing body armor you are way more screwed than the rounds not penetrating.

Thoughts...?

ChrisTKHarris
04-30-2010, 11:15 PM
I use Speer Gold Dot JHPs in all my magazines. All three of my handguns are loaded with bonded JHPs.

Bill Carson
04-30-2010, 11:17 PM
I used to have 6 glaser safety slugs at the top of my mag and 7 hydroshocks. It was a 12+1 9mm. I was worried about the bullet penetrating the perp and the wall and going into my neighbors house. Boy I was I fed some FUD. That was back in 1985. Now it is a G21 with hollow points. I doubt a BG is going to be wearing body armor while breaking in.

Quiet
04-30-2010, 11:23 PM
Suspect waring body armor?
Mozambique drill = problem solved.
:Pirate:

ChrisTKHarris
04-30-2010, 11:24 PM
Suspect waring body armor?
Mozambique drill = problem solved.
:Pirate:

Two to center mass and one to the head....problem solved.

RT13
04-30-2010, 11:30 PM
Black Talons

DannyZRC
04-30-2010, 11:42 PM
I'll just spray the bullets down with teflon, that oughta take care of body armor wearin' perps.










:hide:

HCz
05-01-2010, 1:29 AM
i don't think 9mm ball/FMJ rounds will penetrate armors that JHP can't in close distance. I prefer not to assume that the perp will go down in 3 shots.

Josh3239
05-01-2010, 1:53 AM
My first thought is that your buddy has watches too much TV.
My second thought is if he is afraid the intruder is wearing body armor, why would he use ammo that cannot penetrade body armor? And if he isn't wearing body armor, then dead is dead.

jdewolf
05-01-2010, 2:10 AM
Hmm.

That's why I like good ol' Mossy 590a1 :) Even if it 8 rounds don't penetrate the body armor I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of kinetic energy alone. Worst case scenario I am a bit low [for the legs] or aim a little high [for the head]. Maybe dude's chest won't be ventilated... but he'll either have no face, or lose the ability to walk. From there 4 slugs are stored in the stock...

ALSystems
05-01-2010, 5:59 AM
My first thought is that your buddy has watches too much TV.
My second thought is if he is afraid the intruder is wearing body armor, why would he use ammo that cannot penetrade body armor? And if he isn't wearing body armor, then dead is dead.
If you worry about intruders wearing body armour, maybe you should be using a rifle for HD.
If you only have a handgun and center mass shots don't work, aim higher.

Snapping Twig
05-01-2010, 9:24 AM
Within a given caliber against a particular threat level vest, if the vest is rated for the caliber, differing the bullet will not make a difference. IOW... going from hollowpoint to FMJ won't matter.

I agree with the Mozambique.

TabooAR
05-01-2010, 9:53 AM
IMO - The rounds you use are irrelevant if they dont hit your target. To mean that means practice acuracy with your HD weapon(s) and defense drills using snap caps can be fun. :D

MossbergMan
05-01-2010, 10:04 AM
^agreed!
If the ballistic vest stopped the HP it will stop the FMJ, so your friend is whistling in the wind if that's his line of thinking.

If shots to the upper torso does not stop or deter the threat, shoot them somewhere else (centeral nervous system shut down or mobility stop). The classic failure to stop drill described above is appropriate. Don't waste ammo shooting in the same place, you must affect other systems in the body.
The only reason the 12ga is effective on body armored suspects is not penetration, it's blunt trauma injury. Massive foot pounds of energy delivered simultaously. Danger is suspects have reanimated after being shot with with body armor on. They had been rendered unconscienious by the blunt trauma and once the body compensates, fix-fix, they're back.
Spraying teflon on your ammunition? Really? Please, don't. It won't work. The only reliable way to defeat soft body armor is centerfire rifles or CF rifle ammunition.

When in uniform on patrol I carried my third magazine full of ball. Reasoning was: If I had emptied my primary magazine of HP without ending the fight, everyone was, most likely, behind cover or concealment. I could choose another mag of HP or FMJ for penetration of intermediate barriers.

I stongly advise against "Candy Caning" any magazine in any gun. If it was the best defense, then the professionals would do it, but I don't know a single pro that candy canes their mags. OK, perhaps one of those Hornady non-incendary "tracers" 3 rounds from empty in any high cap gun...like my AR.

Exception is military applications.

Black Majik
05-01-2010, 10:19 AM
Thoughts...?

Your friend needs to use a rifle.

robcoe
05-01-2010, 10:35 AM
So a buddy of mine keeps 3 HydraShocks at the top of his home defense mag, then bellow all TMJs. His theory is that if the guy doesn't go down with the first 3 shots he may have body armor and therefore the TMJs will take him down.

I said if a guy breaking in to a random house is wearing body armor you are way more screwed than the rounds not penetrating.

Thoughts...?

If your friend is really worried about a guy wearing body armor, tell him to buy a mosin nagant 91/30. They are cheap and unless the intruder is wearing a Sherman Tank for a shirt it should penetrate just fine. Just tell him to be careful of what is behind the intruder, 7.62x54 does not stop quickly.

CZlover
05-01-2010, 12:37 PM
So a buddy of mine keeps 3 HydraShocks at the top of his home defense mag, then bellow all TMJs. His theory is that if the guy doesn't go down with the first 3 shots he may have body armor and therefore the TMJs will take him down.

I said if a guy breaking in to a random house is wearing body armor you are way more screwed than the rounds not penetrating.

Thoughts...?

I haven't heard much of bad guys wearing body armor attacking a normal resident...but to each his own...
BTW, pistol ammo, even with TMJ bullets, dont make much of penetration thru body armor as I recall...Yes, I'm sure they can penetrate brick walls, etc. but body armor? Remember what happened in LA in front of Bank of America a few years back with those guys wearing body armors? I think they made a movie based on that event. It's called "43 minutes" or sthing...

Please correct me if I'm wrong. There are things we learn everyday.

sirr6
05-01-2010, 2:08 PM
1st 3 rounds are magsafe rounds, last 7 winchesters +p+.

Josh3239
05-01-2010, 2:38 PM
It happens but not often. There was one that happend, it was told by the victim on that show 30 Days, were an intruder broke in and was shot but had body armor and returned fire. The victim, his wife and infant came out unscathed. Extremely rare but does happen.

The North Hollywood robbery was more than just garden variety body armor. I believe they had body armor and had woven their clothes with aramid or something. Plus those guys had taken Phenobarbital, from my understanding acted as a painkiller. The movie was 44 Minutes.

I haven't heard much of bad guys wearing body armor attacking a normal resident...but to each his own...
BTW, pistol ammo, even with TMJ bullets, dont make much of penetration thru body armor as I recall...Yes, I'm sure they can penetrate brick walls, etc. but body armor? Remember what happened in LA in front of Bank of America a few years back with those guys wearing body armors? I think they made a movie based on that event. It's called "43 minutes" or sthing...

Please correct me if I'm wrong. There are things we learn everyday.

dieselpower
05-01-2010, 3:28 PM
Not thinking things through...
intruder wearing body armor = not a random theft,= knows your armed, = looking for the kill, = needs full tactical defense,= no handguns allowed.

Tell your buddy to stop watching Mr. & Mrs. Smith.

advocatusdiaboli
05-01-2010, 6:51 PM
Tell your buddy to stop watching Mr. & Mrs. Smith.

Right on. If the threat level is that big, you need an AR-15 to pull out to pierce the armor while Jack Bauer radios CTU for backup--just hold on there buddy--they are minutes away. I have one but then Jack's an old buddy I served with ;-)

Scratch705
05-01-2010, 7:36 PM
thoughts? he needs a 12ga slug.

if it doesn't penetrate, it should crack some ribs. then just keep shooting. doubt any vest out there stops multiple shotgun slugs to same area short of those with ceramic plate inserts.

pyromensch
05-01-2010, 7:38 PM
most likely, that if the guy(s) entering your house, have body armor on, they are cops, and you are screwed no matter what you do

Rock_Islander
05-02-2010, 12:18 AM
If you feel that taking a bad guy on, that has body armor, is a REAL threat that you must be prepared for... Then you should devise your own strategy and "emergency plan" in case it happens.

Guys have been throwing out their ideas like 12 gauge shotguns, shoot for the face not just the body, AR-15s and other rifles, etc... You just choose what's most realistic for YOU in case that happens, whether it be one of those options or a combination of a few or all of them.

Good luck, let us know what you come up with.

As for me, I've got my 1911 on bedstand duty every night, it's got hollowpoints (Winchester Supreme Elites .45acp). I'm not too worried about an armored goon in my house so much, but if he was armored, I'd expect those big 45 rounds to smash into his body with some serious force, to make him feel it through the armor. From there I'd place my shots accordingly in order to immobilize him. The pelvic area is just as wide as the upper body, so its easy to aim at, yet it's never covered in armor. Imagine destroying a bad guys pelvic area? The bone structure? That's some serious pain, that no armor can save, and it's a realistic and easily aimed at area especially in close quarter home defense situations. Just aim low center of mass.

Sinixstar
05-02-2010, 1:03 AM
1) I seriously doubt anybody's breaking in with a vest.

2) if they are - as has been said, use a rifle. Forget the AR-15, go for something in the 30 caliber range, at least (and I don't mean 7.62x39. Make it an x51 or larger). If you're going to over-penetrate, make sure it counts.

3) Handguns are notorious for UNDER penetration as it is. HPs cause more tissue damage, assuming they expand properly and also assuming they achieve proper penetration. All that said - TMJ/FMJ provides much greater penetration and retention of mass. Put the bullet where it needs to go, and the HP/TMJ debate is irrelevant.

Bottom line - if it makes him feel better to have jacketed rounds behind HPs - then, go for it.

Once A Marine
05-02-2010, 1:26 AM
My .40 is loaded with a HRT mag, and I have a spare mag loaded with bonded PDX. My 5.7 has SS190 loaded. Shotgun - low recoil 00 Buck, and tatical slug loads. M4 has ready mag with 69gr OTB.

But truthfully, the mozambique drill will suffice with any of them. Or, as Rock Islander said, take out their support by peppering the pelvic girdle.

I don't subscribe to the multi-bullet types in a single magazine. Too confusing under an already stressful situation. Train up for the mozambique drill or something similar to put a couple center mass, then go for the brain housing or the groin/pelvic girdle, or continue to wail away center mass to induce continued blunt trauma and hopefully incapacitate. I don't think anyone is going to continue to stand after 10 rapid hammers to their chest - armor or not.

teflondog
05-02-2010, 9:18 AM
I keep my mags loaded with standard jhp rounds. If the intruder is wearing body armor then I will engage him in hand-to-hand combat. I will initiate the exchange by delivering a swift roundhouse kick to the head. While he is disoriented from the blow I will maneuver behind him and then proceed to break his neck. I have no formal martial arts training but I watched a few Tai Bo DVDs.

Seriously, the chances of someone breaking into your house with body armor is very unlikely unless you're a millionaire living in a mansion.

MossbergMan
05-02-2010, 10:04 AM
You know they don't need purpose built ballistic vests to defeat handgun ammuition. Gang members in the LA area have found phone books (LA County) stop some HG rounds and tire thread (kevlar reinforced for puncture resistance) stops some rounds too, especially when layered. Look in any gun rag or SoF and you can find some company advertising body armor for sale.

Granted most burglars are not expecting to encounter home owners, home invasion robbers however are. It's only a matter of time before they catch on to the "on the job" safety benefits of body armor. We as armed home owners can only perpare for the higher percentage events. Otherwise we'd all have "safe rooms" and punji pits with claymores around the homestead(set traps are illegal in CA. darn it).

Practice Failure to Stop drills. Head and Pelvic shots. Short of a full on bunker mentality, that's about all we can do. And that's why 40 acres in Arizona is looking better and better to me.

Shintao
05-02-2010, 12:37 PM
I use Federal Hydra Shock 9mm rounds for HD. I agree that if first two to the center mass don't do the trick:
A-The perp will flee in fear
B-I aim for something else

I would hate to have rounds flying through my house into my neighbors, I think my buddy is paranoid.

And if I hear of perps wearing body armour for home invasions, then I guess the AR gets employs as the new HD weapon.

spencerhut
05-02-2010, 8:54 PM
If they get past the five outside dogs and all the motion sensor lights they have to breach a door or window. Then the inside 125lb rottweiler gets his turn before I let loose with the bedside AR with 30 rounds of FMJ love. I live in the middle of nowhere so don't me that over penetration BS. Something happens at my house it's me, the wife and whatever went thump, gasp, gurgle in the night.

f33dback
05-02-2010, 9:04 PM
Shotgun, slugs, armor or not it's done.

PutTogether
05-02-2010, 11:18 PM
Lots of interesting things in this thread.

My direct response would be that body armor won't discriminate FMJ vs JHP pistol rounds. It will stop both, or if it is really crappy armor; neither.

It isn't going to stop one and not the other.

smarter
05-02-2010, 11:28 PM
Black Talons

:iagree: lol

MarioS
05-03-2010, 1:04 AM
If your buddy is a potential candidate for having an elevated threat of perps breaking in wearing body armor, he should probably be defending himself with more firepower than a handgun. That being said, I believe it can happen, however small the possibility, so we should be prepared for it. I don't agree with his mag loading logic though. This is also why you keep firing your weapon until the threat is addressed. You would hope one makes it through the bad guy's vest or one strikes a body part not protected by the vest. Or, I would hope his vest is old/junky and doesn't really work.

jdewolf
05-03-2010, 1:12 AM
Shotgun, slugs, armor or not it's done.

I'll probably have to search but I'm not sure a slug will penetrate body armor. The kinetic energy however if the armor did stop the slugs would be a major B' however. I posted earlier but that's I keep 8 00bucks in the tube and I have 4 slugs in the speed feed stock. I can't imagine much surviving 8 rounds of 00 buck. If you put X amount of shots center mass and the dude is still coming at you. I'd assume they're either drugged out of their friggen minds, have a large amount of mass, or wearing armor. At that point I'd go for the face and legs.

If somehow they survived that... well I'd hope they were incapacitated or in a serious world of hurt. The slugs would come into play at that point. And if they survived all that... well I'd have to grab a chainsaw.

CWM4A1
05-03-2010, 1:27 AM
45, 230gr Winchester Ranger-T or 9mm 124gr +P Speer Gold Dot. The pistol is there to help me get to my Benelli M2 loaded with 6 rounds of 000 buck. With California political climate, my AR will be fun gun unless SHTF. HD rifle of choice for me is M1A Scout instead.

MossbergMan
05-03-2010, 8:02 AM
45, 230gr Winchester Ranger-T or 9mm 124gr +P Speer Gold Dot. The pistol is there to help me get to my Benelli M2 loaded with 6 rounds of 000 buck. With California political climate, my AR will be fun gun unless SHTF. HD rifle of choice for me is M1A Scout instead.


+1 ^ Although my 9mm is stoked with Federal 124 HST and my HD rifle is a SOCOM 16 not a Scout. But the idea is, pistol is there to fight our way to the rifles or shotguns. Kinda like a fire extinguisher in the home. It may take of the problem or it may slow it down until the professionals arrive. Either way better have and not need it than to not to have it and.....

Sometimes I wish I had outside dogs and an inside dog instead of kids, but I can't afford both. :)

Chuntsman949
05-03-2010, 8:16 AM
well i shoot .45 and golden sabers soooo....if hes not down with the first three, Im scared as ****

BHPFan
05-03-2010, 9:07 AM
Darned, After reading all these posts, I guess I should keep my Saiga 7.62x39 rifle that I was planning to sell.

Anyways, I always keep my good ole' reliable Ruger .45 ACP with 8 rds 230 gr TAP by my bedside and then get my Win 1300 with pistol grip loaded with 4 rds 00 Buck and 2 rds slug.