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View Full Version : Pat Rogers 3 day carbine operators course AAR


BigAL
03-02-2006, 9:16 PM
I had the pleasure of taking a tactical carbine course this past weekend from Pat Rogers of http://www.eagtactical.com. The course was located in Texas hill country just outside of Brady TX. Weather was pretty good, a bit cold in the mornings but it warmed up pretty fast. Pat is known for running fast paced courses with a no-BS attitude, and this class was no exception. Pat primarily works with military/LE people but he does do a limited number of open enrollment classes every year and this was one of them. The class was pretty diverse with maybe 1/2 of the people LE or military attending on their own dime for a total of about 20 people. In addition to Pat, Tim Lau of 10-8 consulting was also present as an instructor.

Day one consisted of a ~1.5 hr talk in the morning from Pat that covered a lot of things, from attitude to equipment. One of the things he makes very clear is that this is a class about fighting with a carbine so you can kill bad people before they kill you and not about marksmanship or shooting. He also stresses that this is "A" way of doing things, not "THE" way. Pat talks about how the AR carbine is a 200 yd gun, even though accurate hits can certainly be done past that. Pat is a big believer in the vertical foregrip for the AR or using the mag well as one (which is what I did). Once the talk is over we all hit the range for the remainder of the course. We first check our 50 yd zero. Then we go into some of the basics of shooting using the proper stance/grip. Pat also stressed the push-pull technique for loading the AR and also the need to close the dust cover for patrol. From then on, dropping a loaded mag on the ground was cause for a smack on the back of the head. Mags were only loaded with 28 rounds to facilitate mag seating on a closed bolt during a tac load. Also, taking your firing hand off the gun to load a mag was taboo. The support hand is used for loading and racking the sharging handle. Basically the class was divided into 2 squads. One squad would shoot while the other loaded mags and rested. "Jam mags, hydrate, urinate." was the oficial order. The range was 50 yds only, and we spent most of the time at 25 yds and in. Like Pat said, this is more about proper weapons manipulation than fine tuning accuracy, with the idea you could take what you learned home and practice and increase range as you improve.

We practiced various responses such as controlled pairs (2 shots using 2 sight pictures), hammers (2 shots using 1 sight picture), failure drills (2 to center mass, 1 to the head), and non standard responses NSR (more than 3, less than a full mag all to center mass). After every shooting string we were trained to not just lower the muzzle but to scan for additional targets that needed shooting before visually checking the bolt to ensure it was forward and closing the dust cover and engaging mechanical safety. We did speed reloads as well. Since most engagements with carbines are very close in, Pat emphasized the need for target hold over to score good hits, particularly to the head. From there we went to more advanced stuff like addressing multiple targets via the box drill (2 to CM on target 1, 2 to CM on target 2, 1 to the head on target 2, 1 to the head on target 1). Since it was obvious everyone knew the basics of how to shoot, Pat stressed speeding things up and scoring fast hits particularly at close range. We covered getting into the basic firing positions of kneeling (both 1 knee and 2 knees(aka Monica position)) and also going into either military prone or competition prone and the advantages and disadvantes of each as far as stability vs. cover. We covered turning right, left, and 180 and firing. We did shooting on the move both moving forward and laterally and we started putting things together like shooting on the move while engaging multiple targets.

We also did some of the more interesting prone positions including supine prone, urban prone, and SBU prone. We did non-diagnostic malfuntion clearance drills. Both push-pull, rack and roll and if this didn't do it then going to one knee and clearing the malfunction buy locking the bolt back and dumping the mag. The concept here was to stay in the fight no matter what. We would intentionally induce malfs, then go through clearing them before engaging targets. Inside 25 yds, we were taught to roll the rifle to the side and draw the sidearm and engage targets with that. We also did a very interesing CQB tactic where the stock of the rifle is placed horizontally on top of the shoulder to minimize the length of the barrel for tight room clearing. For sighting, you use something as a reference point on the side of the gun (like a flashlight). So obviously this is for really close engagements. The rifle is shot gangsta style and eye pro is very important since brass often comes back at your face. Since the stock cannot be used to control recoil the technique is taught where you pull on the pistol grip and push out on the handguards (like you are stretching the gun). This method also allows you to cover much more area when you need to shoot laterally to your strong side.

We shot a portion of the MEU qual course, but Pat made sure we understood the results were meaningless as we were not being held to the time limit and we weren't bogged down in 50+ lbs of gear. The class was so squared away that we got to go past the normal cirriculum. The final drill we did actually involved team tactics. While proably not very applicable for joe schmo civilian like me it was one of the most fun things I did at the course.

As far as my gear goes I'm happy to report my AR didn't choke once the whole class. And I never cleaned it once in the ~1300 rounds I fired. All it takes is to add a few drops of CLP to keep the gun lubed and it will run w/o problems. I wore a simple Eagle Tactical chest rig while some of the other guys wore full plate carriers w/ armor since they have to wear that stuff at work. People say that you will end up shedding a lot of gear after your first day but I actually went the other way and started carrying more mags. The benefit here is that you can shoot in the other squad if a target is free and double your practice so long as you are ready to go when your squad comes up again. The only thing I wish I had was a dump pouch for mags. Having to find pockets to stick partially filled mags in sux.

So in conclusion I highly recommend Pat Rogers to anyone who wants to take a no nonsense carbine class. Also, the other instructor Tim Lau was excellent as well and I would not hesitate to take a class from 10-8 consulting. Tim is actually a LEO in SoCal and a lot of the classes 10-8 does are taught there. OK enough typing now for some pics.

Headed into beautiful TX hill country.
http://members.cox.net/abussard/IMG_0297.jpg

Yup, definitely in TX.
http://members.cox.net/abussard/IMG_0299.jpg

Pat and Tim's gear. I can give a run down of the some of the stuff if anyone is interested.
http://members.cox.net/abussard/IMG_0301.jpg

BigAL
03-02-2006, 9:18 PM
Shooting while advancing.
http://members.cox.net/abussard/IMG_0313.jpg

Supine prone.
http://members.cox.net/abussard/IMG_0317.jpg

This is Lloyd who organized the course. He's running a LW piston upper and standing faced uprange at indoor ready waiting for commands.
http://members.cox.net/abussard/IMG_0311.jpg

Practicing speed reloads, hence all the mags on the deck while the instructors keep an eye on them.
http://members.cox.net/abussard/IMG_0305.jpg

BigAL
03-02-2006, 9:27 PM
Tim's gun.
http://members.cox.net/abussard/IMG_0318.jpg

Pat's gun, a legal SBR.
http://members.cox.net/abussard/IMG_100.JPG

JimAmentler
03-02-2006, 9:48 PM
Thanks for posting the AAR! I have never trainind with Pat, but have heard nothing but praise for his classes. Hopefully we'll get to train with him down at Pendleton.

Sgt Raven
03-02-2006, 10:00 PM
Is Pat still teaching "rice patty" prone?

Rivet
03-03-2006, 12:08 AM
Thanks for sharing.

Pablo
03-03-2006, 1:06 AM
Excellent post, Big Al!!!
Can you tell us how much you paid for the course? BTW what kind of ammo you got for the course and where did you buy it? I'm ready to take my Carbine course at Front Sight but I haven't decided if I want to drive or not. I'm also guessing you drove there, right?

Jon
03-03-2006, 1:29 AM
Prices: http://www.eagtactical.com/pricing.htm

So, how would one go about using standard mags outside of CA (if we don't already own them)? This would be quite useful when/if attending a course in AZ/NV, etc.

grammaton76
03-03-2006, 1:37 AM
Prices: http://www.eagtactical.com/pricing.htm

So, how would one go about using standard mags outside of CA (if we don't already own them)? This would be quite useful when/if attending a course in AZ/NV, etc.

Simple - buy them out of state, use them out of state, stash or give them away out of state, sigh and return to CA.

If you have any friends with standard mags over here, of course, they may be happy to reimburse you for the cost of the mags if you'll disassemble them and sell them the parts to recondition their mags.

Just to be extra-legal, you might wanna find out which parts they DON'T need and leave those behind.

BigAL
03-03-2006, 6:21 AM
Yes AAR is after action report. I paid $480 for the 3 day course not including room and board. I drove to Brady TX. With all the gear and ammo I brought flying would have been very difficult. Normally I train with Wolf but I didn't want to use it att he class since it's loaded so weak and I didn't want to give myself any advantages. I have XM193 but didn't want to shoot that since it's hard to find nowadays. So I settled on Lake City M855 greentip from Eric the Ammoman. This ammo is definitely loaded hot.

Evil Gun
03-03-2006, 5:56 PM
Thanks for sharing. I'd love to do one of those types of classes, just to see how good I can get.:cool:

Mike Searson
03-03-2006, 7:21 PM
Pat's my idol!

Semper Fi!

556fmj
03-03-2006, 7:28 PM
Thanks for sharing the pics. Looks like a fun class. I have not heard anything but positives about Pat Rogers and Tim Lau.

car15
03-05-2006, 11:07 AM
Were there any disadvantages to the carbine length gas system and gov. profile barrels as compared to the "improved middys" with the custom barrels thickness made by very popular gumsmiths like Denny and John Noveske. I think Pat runs Johns barrel as per the pics.I talked to both and they feel the gov. profile is just to thin.

BigAL
03-05-2006, 2:13 PM
Were there any disadvantages to the carbine length gas system and gov. profile barrels as compared to the "improved middys" with the custom barrels thickness made by very popular gumsmiths like Denny and John Noveske. I think Pat runs Johns barrel as per the pics.I talked to both and they feel the gov. profile is just to thin.

Yes Pat was running one of Noveske's earlier barrels with the Noveske brake. We didn't discuss midlenth vs. carbine or barrel profile though.

Omega13device
03-08-2006, 3:45 PM
Does anyone teach a class like this in the Bay Area?

I wonder if there are enough people who would be interested AND have registered AW rifles.

stevie
03-08-2006, 3:49 PM
Tactical Response is holding classes in San Jose and Azusa, its worth the price of admission. Took 2 classes last year, and looking at taking a few more. Take a look at the current schedule, usually more are added as interest picks up.

http://www.tacticalresponse.com/

Omega13device
03-08-2006, 7:25 PM
They do not have any more San Jose classes this year.

Where in SJ do they hold their classes?

stevie
03-08-2006, 8:05 PM
I am not sure, but i believe the classes are held in Gilroy. I am in the L.A. area so i attend the Azusa Burro Canyon range.

Pablo
03-10-2006, 2:51 AM
http://www.awt-co.com/home.htm

Never taken one of their courses, but everyone who has seems to have enjoyed the experience.

I wonder where Presscheck has been. Haven't heard any updates on HALO Groups new range in awhile.

I have been in 3 of their courses and it's been a great experience! Walt Marshall, Mark Granko, Jack Jennings are really great people and very knowledgeable instructors! They make sure you know what to do not only before and during a gun-confrontation but also after the fight is over. They give you some legal information and tell you what to expect from LEOs

IMO, I think that the best part about AWT courses is that they put a lot of emphasis in training your mind. In some of the classes you have the opportunity to use Simmunitions and practice different scenarios! Don't take me wrong, shooting at paper targets is a very good way of training but when you have the opportunity to shoot real people and also to be shoot, then all of the sudden the situation changes and you can feel the sudden release of adrenaline and you heart rate going up and up!!!

Their prices and locations are some other factors to take in consideration, specially for the people that lives in the bay area. Their Instructor-Student ratio is 1-3, and you can expect to shoot 1,000 rounds on the 2 day courses.

Jeff Rambo
03-10-2006, 3:52 AM
Tactical Response is holding classes in San Jose and Azusa, its worth the price of admission. Took 2 classes last year, and looking at taking a few more. Take a look at the current schedule, usually more are added as interest picks up.

http://www.tacticalresponse.com/

I would suggest you consider alternatives before going with Tactical Response. I cannot state the reason why, but it pertains to complacency and incompetence shown on the part of Tactical Response's upper management while operating a private contracting project in the Sandbox. Their instructors and courses might be great, but this left a bad mark on their name in the military/contracting community and deservingly so.

stevie
03-10-2006, 5:21 AM
Sorry cannot comment on things I know nothing about. The class course and instructors were great and should be considered for individuals looking for this type of training without the expense of "out-of-state" travel.

Mute
03-10-2006, 7:43 AM
If you can't get out of state for Pat's class, you might try 10-8 Consulting (http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=16657&an=0&page=0#16657). They're classes are held by Tim Lau, who's kind of a protege of Pat's.

JellyTheory
04-23-2006, 1:09 AM
If you can't get out of state for Pat's class, you might try 10-8 Consulting (http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=16657&an=0&page=0#16657). They're classes are held by Tim Lau, who's kind of a protege of Pat's.

Mute - Do you have any information on how to contact Tim Lau? That site is apparently impossible to register for to ask questions and is extremely dificult to pull any information off of. I was able to find a schedule of upcoming classes on their forums, but it doesn't give any details about the course.

Thanks!

-Chris

BigAL
04-23-2006, 7:40 AM
Mute - Do you have any information on how to contact Tim Lau? That site is apparently impossible to register for to ask questions and is extremely dificult to pull any information off of. I was able to find a schedule of upcoming classes on their forums, but it doesn't give any details about the course.

Thanks!

-Chris


Try this: tim@10-8forums.com

I would not hesitate to take a course from Tim based on my previous experiences. Unlike other boards, they run a tight ship over at 10-8forums which is why they restrict registration.

QuickOnTheDraw
04-23-2006, 9:43 AM
Nice imformative post! Well done.

Mute
04-23-2006, 4:37 PM
Mute - Do you have any information on how to contact Tim Lau? That site is apparently impossible to register for to ask questions and is extremely dificult to pull any information off of. I was able to find a schedule of upcoming classes on their forums, but it doesn't give any details about the course.

Thanks!

-Chris

Here's Tim's phone number.

(714) 334-0123