PDA

View Full Version : ACR vs FN SCAR vs H&K 416


Adhvanit
04-30-2010, 2:10 AM
So I'm eventually looking at picking up one of these three firearms. Mind you it all relies upon Cal-Legality and such, but which is your preference and why? I'm personally leaning towards the 416 because from what I have read and seen it is incredibly reliable and you can put it through hell and it will still work.

Also from what I have seen the civilian version of the 416 is called the MR556? Is there anything different between the two guns (with the exception of one being automatic capable)?

So have at it.

-Josh

NSR500
04-30-2010, 2:21 AM
The HK would be the last on my list. I was not impressed with it at all, unlike the ACR, and SCAR.
IMO... Specific to your list, if you're going to spend $1800 or more, you should get more than another Gas Piston AR.

Adhvanit
04-30-2010, 2:29 AM
NSR500 mind being a little more specific. I'm looking for more than just short snippets. Give me reasons behind your liking of the ACR and SCAR as well as reasons you don't like the 416. If you don't mind that is.

NSR500
04-30-2010, 2:43 AM
I'm speaking specific to your three choices, okay...

The HK is just another AR15 with a Gas Piston at the end of the day. If you buy the HK... Actually, I should say that if HK "allows you" to buy the HK416/MR556, you'll pay top dollar for it, and it'll still just be an AR.
The ACR and SCAR represent a technological evolution for STANAG magazine fed rifles. They are Polymer/Metal guns and have been designed from the ground up to be "Gas Piston Operated". Whereas the HK is just another platform retrofit.
The ACR and SCAR were also designed with modularity in mind for barrel configuration, and caliber. Ergonomics have been changed on the guns as well to address operational efficiency, and ambidexterity. The charging handles can be swapped for right/left hand operation, the bolt hold/release operated with right/left, and even the safety can be used on both sides.
Good luck with whatever path you choose!

Adhvanit
04-30-2010, 2:49 AM
Thanks for clarifying. The main reason I like the 416 best right now is that it has been shown to be so durable. They have put it through brutal testing and it has come out on top and still firing great. I haven't seen the same with the ACR or the SCAR. Not to say that the ACR/SCAR can't do the same it's just I haven't seen it as of today.

I am not looking to buy myself another AR-15 that if I look at it the wrong way it will jam. I want a rifle that I can toss in the water/mud/dirt, pick it up and fire it and it will fire fine (not to say I am going to do as such).

Also paying top dollar isn't that big of an issue for me at this point. I am willing to drop $3000 or so on a rifle because it is going to be a college graduation present to myself so I just want to make sure when the time comes that I get what I want/is best and most reliable.

NSR500
04-30-2010, 3:39 AM
Thanks for clarifying. The main reason I like the 416 best right now is that it has been shown to be so durable. They have put it through brutal testing and it has come out on top and still firing great. I haven't seen the same with the ACR or the SCAR. Not to say that the ACR/SCAR can't do the same it's just I haven't seen it as of today.

I am not looking to buy myself another AR-15 that if I look at it the wrong way it will jam. I want a rifle that I can toss in the water/mud/dirt, pick it up and fire it and it will fire fine (not to say I am going to do as such).

Also paying top dollar isn't that big of an issue for me at this point. I am willing to drop $3000 or so on a rifle because it is going to be a college graduation present to myself so I just want to make sure when the time comes that I get what I want/is best and most reliable.


• XM8: 127 stoppages.

• MK16 SCAR Light: 226 stoppages.

• 416: 233 stoppages.

• M4: 882 stoppages.

60k round Dust environment shootout

*I have to add though, that the HK did beat the SCAR when they tested with the Marines for the IAR test.

Of the guns on your list, I believe there are more units of the SCAR deployed right now with the Rangers. The HK is/was deployed with Delta, but I don't know if they still use them.
The ACR still has the jury out on it...

I don't know if you've read this, but it may be pertinent to your interests: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-usas-m4-carbine-controversy-03289/#more

For me... I'd still get the SCAR, or ACR over the HK. Since you're so concerned with a "Proven" platform, SCAR vs HK, I would still get the SCAR.
The reason I say that is because FN actually sells to civilians, and HK hates us. Lastly, while both companies have a very deep history, FN has more of their "Modern" lineup deployed in a battlefield right now, ranging from pistols to heavy machine guns.

416stroker
04-30-2010, 3:41 AM
WOW everyone believes the HK is the ****. Damn Future Weapons they made every one think the HK is special. Your buying a name thats all Its just another gas piston AR. Thats all **** HK..

Youll never own a real 416

You obviously dont know jack about the AR profile with a post like this.

I am not looking to buy myself another AR-15 that if I look at it the wrong way it will jam. I want a rifle that I can toss in the water/mud/dirt, pick it up and fire it and it will fire fine (not to say I am going to do as such).



Its just the name its no better than a POF or a Addax Or really any other GPU.

Id buy a POF P415-16-recon or a LWRC MA3


You have a lot more to learn about ARs and the HK is not the ****. There a lot of options most are equals and some are better

Out of your choices its a toss up with the acr and the scar with me.

Greg-Dawg
04-30-2010, 4:15 AM
SCAR-H because there's one in MW2.

Standard
04-30-2010, 5:28 AM
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/1282/p1003665sw8.jpg

BitterOldMan
04-30-2010, 5:49 AM
I've read that the MR556 is not the same as they HK 416 and it won't be compatible with non HK ar-15 lowers. I'm just as curious as you as to all the details of actual MR556 when released compared to the HK 416. At this point, I'd rather have an actual HK 416 16" upper. Perhaps a 416 expert can chime in on the differences.

I'd take the SCAR over the ACR but I would love to have a 416:)

See http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?117822-Updates-from-Shot-Show-2010/page2, where straightgrain, who attended Shot 2010, states that the MR556A1 will have Mil-Spec holes, whereas the MR556 will have proprietary holes.

If you want a great gun now, get the SCAR. I have yet to see a HK 416 16" upper in the US. Plenty of valuable information on www.hkpro.com (http://hkpro.com/forum/index.php). Jim Schatz aka G3Kurz, Program Manager on the HK416, long time HK employee, and a very nice gentleman, has always been very active on that website.

LB21
04-30-2010, 6:10 AM
I am not looking to buy myself another AR-15 that if I look at it the wrong way it will jam. I want a rifle that I can toss in the water/mud/dirt, pick it up and fire it and it will fire fine (not to say I am going to do as such).


You have just described the ak-47.... ;)

hammerhands32
04-30-2010, 6:15 AM
You have just described the ak-47.... ;)

No the Fal:p

Aprilia
04-30-2010, 6:22 AM
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/1282/p1003665sw8.jpg

Standard - any other detail/context here? You can't just quitely drop in with something that sexy without an explanation!!

Max

xfilterx
04-30-2010, 7:13 AM
Not this topic again.

:beatdeadhorse5:

I've come to the realization that there are nothing but HK haters on this board so I'm staying away from arguments. If it's not a AK47 or some run-of-the-mill AR15, chances are people on this board will hate on it.

Booshanky
04-30-2010, 7:13 AM
The main reason I like the 416 best right now is that it has been shown to be so durable. They have put it through brutal testing and it has come out on top and still firing great.

By "they", you mean the people selling the gun?

xfilterx
04-30-2010, 7:17 AM
By "they", you mean the people selling the gun?

Oh man, no offense dude but that is such as ignorant statement.

$P-Ritch$
04-30-2010, 7:25 AM
Standard - any other detail/context here? You can't just quitely drop in with something that sexy without an explanation!!

Max

I believe that is one of those XCR's by Robarms.

localguy
04-30-2010, 7:31 AM
SCAR-H because there's one in MW2.

+1 :p ;)

416stroker
04-30-2010, 7:56 AM
I believe that is one of those XCR's by Robarms.

you are correct it is

Not this topic again.

:beatdeadhorse5:

I've come to the realization that there are nothing but HK haters on this board so I'm staying away from arguments. If it's not a AK47 or some run-of-the-mill AR15, chances are people on this board will hate on it.

Not an hk hater but the 416 isnt that special. I hate that everyone thiks it so special.

dchang0
04-30-2010, 8:08 AM
@NSR500: Excellently, eloquently, and concisely put--great job explaining the decision!

sd1023x
04-30-2010, 8:43 AM
Thanks for clarifying. The main reason I like the 416 best right now is that it has been shown to be so durable. They have put it through brutal testing and it has come out on top and still firing great. I haven't seen the same with the ACR or the SCAR. Not to say that the ACR/SCAR can't do the same it's just I haven't seen it as of today.

I am not looking to buy myself another AR-15 that if I look at it the wrong way it will jam. I want a rifle that I can toss in the water/mud/dirt, pick it up and fire it and it will fire fine (not to say I am going to do as such).

Also paying top dollar isn't that big of an issue for me at this point. I am willing to drop $3000 or so on a rifle because it is going to be a college graduation present to myself so I just want to make sure when the time comes that I get what I want/is best and most reliable.

Recommend the SCAR.

And don't worry, US SOCOM is testing out the SCAR for you.

100% agree with NSR500's statement about purpose built pistons, but as of right now, probably pick a HK (why? cuz its an HK!) over an ACR (why? 1x9 and the longer you wait, shrubmaster has promised refinements such as some-sort of metal lower, removable grip, but as of right now, no way on the ACR).

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/1580/270049.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/doqr0x.jpg

Although I must say the SCAR is more evolutionary than revolutionary. Its basically a FN FNC with a new chassis. See any similarity?

SCAR
http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/7343/scarldisasm6eb.jpg

FN FNC
http://www.soldf.com/images/s_ak5isar2.jpg

The action is very similar, think the bolt is almost a straight copy. The FN FNC has had a good reputation and if they just straight copied the action, must be bulletproof, I mean don't think you'll need a extractor upgrade kit or anything!

xfilterx
04-30-2010, 10:26 AM
From Army / Defense Industry Daily testing (2008):

Extreme Dust Test III stoppages broken out by weapon (Colt M4, HK 416, FN SCAR, and HK XM-8)...

The M4 Carbine is the Army’s existing weapon.

* 882 jams, 1 jam every 68 rounds, again using heavy lubrication. In addition all 10 of the M4 barrels needed to be replaced, and a number of their parts were replaced during the test. None of the cold hammer forged HK416 and XM-8 barrels needed replacement.

The HK416 is a modified M4 carbine, which can be and has been converted from existing rifles. Used by US Special Forces.

* 233 jams, 1 jam every 257 rounds, 3.77x more reliable than the M4.

FN SCAR is US special Forces’ new weapon, designed by SOSOCM. It just went into production in late 2007.

* 226 jams, 1 jam every 265 rounds, 3.85x more reliable than the M4

XM-8 is a developmental rifle. It’s an advanced version of HK’s G36, a rifle in wide use by many NATO armies.

* 127 jams, I jam every 472 rounds, 6.95x more reliable than the M4.


A document circulated on Capitol Hill asking for testing includes these excerpts:

“The Army has claimed “83% reported confidence that the M4 will not suffer major breakage or failure that necessitates repair before further use” – A soldier should be 100% confident that his weapon will not break the next time he fires it…. Since the M16 was introduced in Vietnam the answer has always been “It’s the soldiers’ fault”... The Special Operations Command has the most proficient soldiers in the world, they shoot the most and they operate in the most difficult environments – In 2001 SOCOM was highly critical of the reliability of the M4, and they chose to adopt a new weapon – the SCAR. Our Tier 1 units – like Delta Force, and Seal Team 6 have all abandoned the M4 for other weapons that are significantly more reliable.”

When it all boils down to it, you're splitting hairs. Based on extreme dust test performed by independent experts, the Army, and field tests by Delta Force, Seal Teams, etc., it's clear that you can not go wrong with either the HK416/MR556 or the FN SCAR.

I already own a SCAR and have my MR556 on order so I suppose I'll do my own tests in a controlled, air conditioned, highly filtered environment, shooting at paper, while calm. We'll see who comes out the winner. :D

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_HK416_2_GIs_lg.jpg

HKDoc
04-30-2010, 10:55 AM
I like my hk sl8. Gas piston, very accurate. G36 action and cheaper than the three rifles mentioned above.

A bit front heavy though. And mags are very hard to find.

Adhvanit
04-30-2010, 11:16 AM
Hmm lots of interesting opinions. Just out of curiosity are there any other rifles that any of your would recommend?

1337Grenadier
04-30-2010, 11:54 AM
Check out LMT you also may want to take a look at the Sig rifles.
To be honest a quality built AR will be reliable and do everything you need it to.

Bizcuits
04-30-2010, 1:58 PM
My opinion is based soloy on looks as I'll never be able to afford any of those, but the 416 is a sexy beast.

Solidsnake87
04-30-2010, 2:11 PM
Thanks for clarifying. The main reason I like the 416 best right now is that it has been shown to be so durable. They have put it through brutal testing and it has come out on top and still firing great. I haven't seen the same with the ACR or the SCAR. Not to say that the ACR/SCAR can't do the same it's just I haven't seen it as of today.

No offense or anything, but don't believe everything you see or hear on TV. The Scar would be my bet of all those rifles. They cut no corners on their design like bushy did with the ACR. Also, there are ton of piston ARs on the market. I'd be willing to bet that some exceed even the venerable HK quality.

I am not looking to buy myself another AR-15 that if I look at it the wrong way it will jam. I want a rifle that I can toss in the water/mud/dirt, pick it up and fire it and it will fire fine (not to say I am going to do as such).

Again, no offense but you already seem biased against an AR and I don't know if it has merit. The AR is a great platform. Are there better rifles? Sure! That does not mean the AR will blow up if you sneeze on it though.

Adhvanit
04-30-2010, 2:17 PM
I am not saying that AR-15's are necessarily bad guns, I actually own one myself and I think it is a great gun. I'm just looking at the statistics in general and going from that. I probably should have worded it a little differently.

Mind you all my opinions are from what I have read/seen so far and they are by no way solidified. The more I have been reading I'm actually liking the ACR more and more. I just want to make sure when the time comes I'm left with a great rifle all in all.

xfilterx
04-30-2010, 2:23 PM
I'll sell you my ACR, seriously...I'm not terribly impressed with it.

My SCAR and my pre-ordered MR556 is all I'll need. Oh and my hack job AR15 (Del-Ton upper, RRA lower, Tapco stock, NC-Star handle, and C-Products mags) that just refuses to fail me.

Solidsnake87
04-30-2010, 2:25 PM
Read the recent reviews of the ACR again. People have commented on the crappy plastic selector and lack of features for the price. You can get a stock SCAR for $2200 that comes with everything. I've seen NIB scars with blemished finished for $2k. FN must do some amazing QC on their chrome lining. I use one of their FN SPR's for tactical shooting and it shoots .3 MOA very easily @ 100 yards and holds 1 MOA at 800 yards. They can make one hell of a factory rifle. I would not call myself biased, but having owned both bushmaster and FN made products, I can honestly say FN has better QC and attention to detail.

Get yourself a Scar and spend the extra $1k on an ACOG or something.

NSR500
04-30-2010, 2:29 PM
Hmm lots of interesting opinions. Just out of curiosity are there any other rifles that any of your would recommend?

Since you seem to like HK, you can try an SL-8 since of all retail available rifles, it is related to the HK XM-8. You will need to convert the magazine well if you want to use STANAG magazines though.
If you like Bullpups, there is the revamped, re-released Steyr AUG/A3. That platform has seen deployment and has a good record.
If you like reliability there is also the SIG 556, which is based on the very proven SIG 550 series. The damn thing will run like an AK47 pretty much.
Then if you have the money to feed them, you can step up to 7.62x51. The FAL is very, very reliable and proven. There is a reason that rifle has the title of; "Right Arm of the Free World". If you get the DSA OSW, it is a very evil gun! :43:

http://www.dsarms.com/images/SA58OSW.gif

nrvnqsrxk
04-30-2010, 2:38 PM
I would choose in this order:

HK416
SCAR
ACR

Because I would be most familiar with the AR system. The SCAR beats the ACR because ACR still has to work out a few kinks and lower in price. I'll give it a shot in 5 years or so when the aftermarket catches up to it.

NSR500
04-30-2010, 2:41 PM
Not this topic again.

:beatdeadhorse5:

I've come to the realization that there are nothing but HK haters on this board so I'm staying away from arguments. If it's not a AK47 or some run-of-the-mill AR15, chances are people on this board will hate on it.


Don't write me off as an HK hater, but I'm just being a realist. I have HK guns, but since HK moved beyond the 9X series, I have not been impressed. I've also come to feel that HK truly doesn't care about the consumer base at all.
At SHOT 2010 the FN folks were very welcoming to all who came to see their product. They were also more open to discuss product feedback and shoot the breeze about their gear. HK did not seem friendly at all unless it looked like you represented an organization going to spend six digits or more on an order.
Comparing HK to FN, SIG, and Steyr there is a big difference. All the others brought back their previously banned platforms from 1994, or new gear direct for consumer purchase. HK gives us the USC, and SL-8?
If HK would give us a semi-auto G36, UMP, or MP7 it would make me appreciate them more as an organization.

tacticalcity
04-30-2010, 2:47 PM
I am holding out for the commercial release of the Tactical Version of the ACR . I want the rails. If this were Nevada I would say get the SCAR. But with the 16 inch barrel it is sort of cheesy. The handguards just do not go far enough forward to control it. You get wobble and poor control of recoil. Not so much with the ACR which allows you to put your hand further forward like an AR with a midlength forend. For an SBR, the SCAR would be very cool however. Sadly this is California. No modern SBRs for us.

The HK 416 does not really appeal to me. The SCAR and ACR are modular, with swappable barrels, which is the only reason I would want one over an AR. I could be wrong, but I don't think the HK brings that to the table. I don't know a great deal about it. I read a little bit about it and quickly lost interest. It just seems like a rebranded AR, with all the money going towards the name on the side of it rather than improved design eliments. There are much better AR choices out there for less money.

I agree with the poster above. HK could be doing a lot more to win the hearts and minds of the commercial market. Their lack of interest in us drives me to their competition. I also think it leads to flaws in their designs. While the military used to drive the designs, these days the competition world influences designs just as much if not more (as seen with the AR platform). They still think of them as mutually exclusive, and as a result their designs suffer. Don't get me wrong. The HK USP ranks as my 3rd favorite handgun. So I am not so much an HK hater as much as a disillusioned fan hoping they will get their act together so I can fall in love with them again.

cmaynes
04-30-2010, 4:05 PM
I have shot a few 416's and I must say they are really nice- Are they nicer than an M4? yes- they are on par with a nice LMT or DD carbine. Since the 556's are not going to be out foe another 6 months, you have to judge whether that "HK" logo is worth the wait- As to the SCAR- I have seen them, but not shot them- the people I know who own them do like them a lot- and they are used to using premium carbines. The ACR (at least in its present configuration has little to do with the Masada) and I am personally not impressed by it- but I do need to shoot it before cementing that feeling.

There are so many good possibilities including the LWRC or POF guns that one could argue for days and it would really come down to a preference of appearance versus function.

ninjamaster
04-30-2010, 4:32 PM
I was going to buy an HK MR556 since Im an HK fan. Just because Im an HK fan doesnt mean Im gonna let HK charge me that much for a piston AR though. I built my own for less and it will be just as reliable. HK's do fail as does anything else over time.

bomb_on_bus
04-30-2010, 5:38 PM
how much money are you willing to spend?

if you wanna get the best bang for your buck go for the acr but if money is no option then get the hk.

i shot the hk a few times i liked it but not that much to spend the big money to get one.
i actually went with POF a couple of years ago and couldnt be happier. they are cheaper and in my opinion just as good as anything else on the market.

a1fabweld
04-30-2010, 8:55 PM
I like the regular old D.I. AR. I can't see any reason to switch to the trendy new guns coming out.

Quiet
04-30-2010, 10:47 PM
SCAR for me.

The HK416/MR556 is not compatible with Magpul Pmags. It's one of the reasons why Magpul started making the Emags.

Endless
04-30-2010, 10:59 PM
This has been debated on just about every forum and honestly the HK has been at the top but the huge thing I have seen and is a con is the weight of the MR556. Everyone is complaining about the weight but I see no issue with it having owned a bunch of AR15s since 1994.

You can get the HK 416 upper right now and if you live in another state you can go SBR. Granted they are $3500 and some change. Too much for some but its in my range. :)

I am picking up both the HK MR556 and HK MR762 when they become available.

I am a Colt guy by far and have always liked M4 designs and want to see what HK has honestly. You see all the videos and hear all the hype. I want to see what this is first hand. I did that with the KRISS and now its time to pick up both of these.

The SCAR and ACR are really overpriced for what they are and I just cant get over their looks. I am just not a fan. Granted the FS2000 and KRISS arent award winners either but the KRISS SBR is really bad *** and the FS2000 with tri-rail isnt too shabby for a supersoaker either. ;)

richzmn
05-01-2010, 12:38 AM
This is from Defense Review, I also heard the same stories from other individuals. I feel the Scar and HK are both overrated.

Defense Review recently spoke to one of our professional contacts in the tactical firearms community, and he told us on the phone that the MK16/SCAR-L is for all practical purposes “dead”, meaning that it’s not likely to survive for very long, and that the SCAR weapons are continuing to experience teething problems in the field, i.e. breaking down.


http://www.defensereview.com/are-the-fn-scar-weapons-mk16-and-mk17-necessary-and-do-we-really-need-to-replace-the-colt-m4m4a1-carbine/

Adhvanit
05-01-2010, 2:42 AM
Defense Review recently spoke to one of our professional contacts in the tactical firearms community, and he told us on the phone that the MK16/SCAR-L is for all practical purposes “dead”, meaning that it’s not likely to survive for very long, and that the SCAR weapons are continuing to experience teething problems in the field, i.e. breaking down.


http://www.defensereview.com/are-the-fn-scar-weapons-mk16-and-mk17-necessary-and-do-we-really-need-to-replace-the-colt-m4m4a1-carbine/

In the article it does say that this is unconfirmed and such. So no point in really posting it when there is no factual backing. If you know of a factual source for this info then I'm extremely interested in reading it.

Standard
05-01-2010, 7:58 AM
Standard - any other detail/context here? You can't just quitely drop in with something that sexy without an explanation!!

Max

Robinson Arms XCR. It has all of the features of the ACR (with actual, available now caliber swaps) at half the price.

themailman
05-01-2010, 11:19 AM
I am not looking to buy myself another AR-15 that if I look at it the wrong way it will jam. I want a rifle that I can toss in the water/mud/dirt, pick it up and fire it and it will fire fine (not to say I am going to do as such).
.

Do you have any experience with the AR platform? With this comment I think not.

Adhvanit
05-01-2010, 12:31 PM
If you read an earlier post I said I probably should have worded that different. I do own an AR-15 and I love it. It is a great gun and has never jammed. I am talking statistically and (probably not the best word) "theoretically"

richzmn
05-01-2010, 12:56 PM
I like the ACR, because I have one. So I'm biased now. I got mine for $2100 off GB. The Scar and HK cost more, I wouldn't trade my ACR for both of the others. Just find one that you like?

richzmn
05-01-2010, 1:00 PM
Don't forget the Sig 516 is coming soon.

themailman
05-01-2010, 3:12 PM
IMHO, the piston AR hasnt been improved upon in the HK line, so all you are paying for is a nice piston AR platform with a big name. If it was me I would pay the 1500-2000 for a quality piston AR.

Josh3239
05-01-2010, 3:17 PM
Robinson Arms XCR. It has all of the features of the ACR (with actual, available now caliber swaps) at half the price.

XCRs have not been doing well in carbine courses.

Teeznutz
05-01-2010, 3:33 PM
Another one of these threads??

PEBKAC
05-01-2010, 4:49 PM
Robinson Arms XCR. It has all of the features of the ACR (with actual, available now caliber swaps) at half the price.
Well, not quite all the features. The charging handle is left side like a FAL, not ambi like the ACR, and mag release is not ambidextrous. And the stock only folds in the default configuration.

I would however say +1 on the XCR. Those things are built like tanks.

Swoop
05-01-2010, 8:32 PM
Scar, it's proven and I'm not familiar with the HK. I'm perfectly happy with my sig 556 swat, thousands of rounds thru mine and my Buddha combined without a flaw (and HE is not good about cleaning by all means, I am)

scar is my next rifle purchase!

sjwolf
05-01-2010, 9:54 PM
Recommend the SCAR.


http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/1580/270049.jpg


Which optic is being used here?

JacobSmith
05-01-2010, 9:57 PM
I love my Robinson Arms XCR.

A great machined piece of beauty.

My brother tells me he didn't like the ACR because it was way too front heavy and it felt somewhat cheap.

The SCAR has a reciprocating charging handle, a polymer lower, and it takes 5 times as long to change calibers in comparison to the XCR.

stormy_clothing
05-01-2010, 10:15 PM
The best piston guns on the market are probably LWRC

The M6a2 is probably the right one for you

http://www.lwrci.com/images/Product/large/4.jpg

Followed by the POF 415

http://www.pof-usa.com/p415/415-145-MRR-9SX-223-G.jpg

Both are right in the 2K flat range

The 556 is HK garbage, having shot one I feel embarrassed for HK.

The LMT Defender I hear is another good rifle

http://www.lewismachine.net/images/product/large/CQBPS16_large.jpg

again about 2K

I like the XCR but it's not something I would go into battle with given the parts supply ect.CMMG M4LEP build it out and save your money.

If you want the out the box piston rifle LWRC, POF, LMT

Heres a pic of my CMMG with some mods, you would be hard pressed to see why HK wants 2K more for the same basic action

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2677/20100427123927.jpg

Josh3239
05-01-2010, 11:15 PM
Which optic is being used here?

An Elcan Specter DR in Flat Dark Earth. I got one and it is one bass a** optic, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Scar, it's proven

How is it proven? It is completely unproven, it has seen extremely limited service for only one year and the reviews from the troops have been fairly mixed. Some have reported that the stock breaking at the plastic teeth of the button. I am sure FN still has some kinks to work out.

And I am not crapping on the weapon, there is no doubt it is great weapon. But calling it proven is like calling Obama an experienced or a successful politician.

BHPFan
05-02-2010, 6:26 AM
The best piston guns on the market are probably LWRC

The M6a2 is probably the right one for you

http://www.lwrci.com/images/Product/large/4.jpg

Followed by the POF 415

http://www.pof-usa.com/p415/415-145-MRR-9SX-223-G.jpg

Both are right in the 2K flat range

The 556 is HK garbage, having shot one I feel embarrassed for HK.

The LMT Defender I hear is another good rifle

http://www.lewismachine.net/images/product/large/CQBPS16_large.jpg

again about 2K

I like the XCR but it's not something I would go into battle with given the parts supply ect.CMMG M4LEP build it out and save your money.

If you want the out the box piston rifle LWRC, POF, LMT

Heres a pic of my CMMG with some mods, you would be hard pressed to see why HK wants 2K more for the same basic action

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2677/20100427123927.jpg


Even though the discussion on this thread is for ACR, SCAR and HK, Thank You for bringing up these other brands of Gas Piston AR's. For over $1K less, my question is why these other brands mentioned by stormy are not as good?

HK is good, but waaaay overpriced and I cannot see what a LWRC, POF, LMT, CMMG and Addax cannot do what the HK can do for a lot less money.

Now for the likes of SCAR and ACR, what can't a SIG 556 or a MSAR STG 556 E4 do that these other rifles can?

B Strong
05-02-2010, 8:54 AM
Get a piston upper from ADDAX, and spend the money you'll save over the price of the latest/bestest gear queer rifle on a good carbine class.

If I had to buy a current manufactured complete piston rifle it would be some LWRC model.

The HK, FN and ACR offerings don't really offer any great leap of performance over the old DI gear.

Trey1191
05-02-2010, 12:16 PM
That test claims that the regular AR DI system fails every 68 rounds... Really? Seeing as our Tier 1 units still use em, I think the gun can get through three magazines...

Some pictures of the SCAR in training on the sealswcc.com site in the slide show on the home page that are pretty badass over the beach stuff for those who care. Can't copy em off the slides sorry

2600fromAtari
05-02-2010, 12:29 PM
^I think the failure rate is due to intense sand testing, though I haven't seen exactly how torturous the test is and what they're putting these rifles through. It must be extreme for that kind of failure rate.

Most of us will probably never go through something like that on U.S. soil. I've gone through thousands of rounds in my my ARs without a hitch, but I don't drop it in sand dunes or drag it through the mud...

...still want that SCAR though. :-)

cmaynes
05-02-2010, 2:08 PM
If there is that much crap flying into the gun one probably couldny identify a target. A failure every two magazines seems outrageous, and I know a bunch of people downrange who are not seeing that failure rate.

ymmv....

Trey1191
05-02-2010, 10:34 PM
Cmaynes were on the same page man, those numbers just don't jive...

pyro3k2
05-02-2010, 11:21 PM
When it comes to this type of thread, call me crazy but I can only see one group of posters that opinion would truely matter and that group is the people that own/use all three firearms. Til then we are all just kinda guessing and throwing out theroies on products that realistically we haven't used. I could jump on the band wagon by saying im holding out for the SCAR-17h and start listing why, but I just be blowing smoke out of my ***.

SixPointEight
05-02-2010, 11:31 PM
In the article it does say that this is unconfirmed and such. So no point in really posting it when there is no factual backing. If you know of a factual source for this info then I'm extremely interested in reading it.

The factual source of this is the same as the factual source of this:


I am not looking to buy myself another AR-15 that if I look at it the wrong way it will jam. I want a rifle that I can toss in the water/mud/dirt, pick it up and fire it and it will fire fine (not to say I am going to do as such).


Lol. Anyways, I like the ACR, but like I said, let it simmer for a while to work out the kinks, and the price to come down.

santacruzstefan
05-03-2010, 2:09 AM
LWRC for the win! Alas, I too am biased by the purchase of one. If you want a nice rifle, and you have the money, then who cares how much it costs (within reason, of course)? I hate it when people gasp and say, "you spent what on your rifle?" I'm happy, I don't feel ripped off, and in the end thats what matters.

Although, when I save up a bit more cash, I'm getting a SCAR. But if LWRC fixes the magazine problem on their REPRs, that just might be the one. In any event, I suggest an M6A2 or A3, right around the prices of either rifle OP mentioned, and since they are essentially just special ARs they retain the modularity and parts commonality.

stormy_clothing
05-03-2010, 1:43 PM
Even though the discussion on this thread is for ACR, SCAR and HK, Thank You for bringing up these other brands of Gas Piston AR's. For over $1K less, my question is why these other brands mentioned by stormy are not as good?

HK is good, but waaaay overpriced and I cannot see what a LWRC, POF, LMT, CMMG and Addax cannot do what the HK can do for a lot less money.

Now for the likes of SCAR and ACR, what can't a SIG 556 or a MSAR STG 556 E4 do that these other rifles can?

I would always buy American rifles, tomorrow some import ban could be in place ect.

HK rifles are expensive due to currency conversion, they are paying people over there very high wages in US dollars to produce the rifles.

LWRC loves to put it out there that they beat on there rifles for 50,000 + rounds. This is a great attitude to have I think as it's confidence not technical bs. However pull the action back on an LWRC and it feels polished, not the kind of polished that won't feed wolf but the kind that makes a Honda run forever.

Unfortunately with press has come raised prices - but as cost no option they would be my first choice. One thing to not is when manufacturers chose the right parts stocks pistol grips ect not the cheapest parts.

There is no reason an AK is 1/10 the price of a good piston gun but sometimes the problem is the market itself.

Today if I had the skill I could go and design an completely different rifle and it would eat up all the sales tomorrow - some companies buffer market volatility with higher prices when they can.

I think CMMG did a really good job with there piston rifle - it only needs 80 dollars worth of BUIS and for 1050 it's going to be a hell of a rifle.

MissionMTMan
05-09-2010, 7:55 PM
Okay. I am going to chime in here. I absolutely hate the ACR. It is extremely front heavy, heavy in general, horrible trigger pull (from what I'm used to), has the stupid star chamber and bolt, "special" barrel lining, way overpriced etc... Don't buy one until they fix the entire thing.

The SCAR is a beautiful rifle with great ergos. I am still not jazzed they kept the star bolt though. The stocks are stronger than people care to admit.

HK416: Never shot one but I have not read anything that would say it is worth getting over a LWRC.

LWRC: One of the best piston AR's available.

POF: is a POS. Mine had bolt tilt, the POF rail is insanely heavy, the POF rail strips out in the threads. I just hated the thing in general and sold it for a huge discount.

XCR: Best rifle made in my opinion. Has great accuracy, amazing ergos, machine work is flawless, bolt design is spot on. The only things it needs is a "Scar" like stock, and a better way to secure the barrel. The biggest reason people are having problems with them at carbine courses is they are not performing the proper maintenance before the course. Just like how you need to know your AR, you need to know what specific maintenance your XCR needs.

My apologies for the bad grammer and run on sentences but I am feeling lazy...

Endless
05-09-2010, 8:24 PM
Both are right in the 2K flat range

The 556 is HK garbage, having shot one I feel embarrassed for HK.

Heres a pic of my CMMG with some mods, you would be hard pressed to see why HK wants 2K more for the same basic action



It comes down to what you actually like and if the said rifle meets your needs.
Personally I would never own a CMMG anything. I have been a Daniel Defense, Noveske, and Colt guy for years. I wont argue quality because I have seen CMMG rifles next to the higher end AR15s and you CAN see the differences. I couldnt believe the quality of Daniel Defense compared to Colt and Noveske, let alone a CMMG or Bushmaster.

Again, different strokes for different folks. I do give one pro for CMMG, they are dirt cheap IMO. About the cost of 3 sets of brake pads... :)

SPUTTER
05-09-2010, 10:03 PM
The sad part about these rifles is the fact that they are only one quarter of the rifle, of the actual FA version (not to mention, expensive). These are combat rifles designed for infantry men who will more than likely use them in FA.
For something that you will be using to punch holes in paper at the range, I think your standard fair AR is sufficient.Though rifles such as SCARs or Masadas are "cool", they don't offer a distinct advantage over an AR for a civilian. Unless of course you want to make friends at the range.
Funny how some of you guys go back and forth on issues such as reliability, when the only time you'll have to rely on that rifle working, is on your day off at the range.

UserM4
05-09-2010, 10:50 PM
AR15's don't jam up like they used to during the Vietnam war. What's the point? It's just marketing hype and the general public's desire for a shiny new rifle. That being said, I'm so getting one! Oh, and no reciprocating charging handle for me, or a 1:9 twist Bushy. I trust in HK or maybe a Remy ACR.

Toolbox X
05-09-2010, 11:12 PM
This is from Defense Review, I also heard the same stories from other individuals. I feel the Scar and HK are both overrated.

Defense Review recently spoke to one of our professional contacts in the tactical firearms community, and he told us on the phone that the MK16/SCAR-L is for all practical purposes “dead”, meaning that it’s not likely to survive for very long, and that the SCAR weapons are continuing to experience teething problems in the field, i.e. breaking down.


http://www.defensereview.com/are-the-fn-scar-weapons-mk16-and-mk17-necessary-and-do-we-really-need-to-replace-the-colt-m4m4a1-carbine/

The "dead" MK16/SCAR-L just got ADM approval to go into full production for USSOCOM.

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/press/detail.asp?id=82

McLean, VA) —FNH USA, LLC received notification from the USSOCOM Program Executive Office—SOF Warrior (PEO—SW) that the SCAR Acquisition Decision Memorandum (ADM) was approved and signed on April 14, 2010, moving this FN Herstal (FN) program into the Milestone C phase. This decision authorizes the production and deployment of the Special Operations Forces (SOF) Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) MK 16 and MK 17, as well as the Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module (EGLM) MK 13.

Following a worldwide solicitation to the military firearms industry, nine vendors submitted a dozen different designs for a new modular, multi-caliber weapons system. The FN SCAR submission was the only weapons system to pass all of the Go/No-Go criteria and was unanimously chosen in November 2004 by the selection board composed of senior operators from every SOF component. The SCAR is the first new assault rifle procured by the U.S. Military through a full and open competition since the M16 trials were held in the mid-1960s. Tests in reliability, accuracy, safety and ergonomics were administered from August 2005 to September 2008 and were conducted in a variety of environments including urban, maritime, jungle and winter/mountain operational test scenarios. The SCAR weapons system successfully endured more than two million rounds of ammunition during these trials, therein making it one of the most heavily tested weapons in the history of small arms.

“The SCAR is one of the most tested small arms in our military’s history and is currently being employed in the fight to defend freedom,” said United States Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC), member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. “Products of excellence, like the SCAR, represent the continuation of a long and proud tradition of defense manufacturing in South Carolina. I look forward to the continued use of this weapons system.”

The FN SCAR system consists of two highly adaptable modular rifle platforms and a grenade launcher. Type-designated as the MK 16 MOD 0 5.56mm Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle and the MK 17 MOD 0 7.62mm Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle, both weapons are available with three different barrel lengths optimized for conducting operations in close-quarters combat, standard infantry and longer-range precision fire roles. All SCAR barrels can be easily interchanged by the operator in just minutes to instantly meet the requirements of virtually any mission. The MK 13 MOD 0 40mm Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module (EGLM) quickly mounts under the barrel of either SCAR platform, providing additional capability to the individual warfighter’s firepower, and can be easily configured for use as a stand-alone weapon as well. Because of the SCAR system’s modular design, ergonomic commonality (100%) and parts commonality (greater than 80%), it represents a significant reduction in training costs and life-cycle support. The weapon system’s open architecture is designed to support future advancements in operational requirements including ammunition, aiming devices, sighting systems and other mission critical equipment.

“The SCAR weapons system is a major USSOCOM program whose success is a direct result of the effort, commitment and teamwork provided by FN and the U.S. Government. We are extremely pleased to have had the opportunity to work with such a strong team in achieving the Milestone C decision,” said Mark Cherpes, Vice President of Military Operations for FNH USA. “This milestone signifies that our products are operationally effective and suitable for mass fielding. We believe that the SCAR is the most flexible, reliable and cost-effective small arms weapons system ever offered to America’s servicemen and women, and that it will give them a significant operational advantage in both present and future conflicts.”

FN firearms manufactured in the United States are produced by FN Manufacturing in Columbia, SC. The Herstal Group is represented by FNH USA, FN Manufacturing and Browning within the United States and directly employs more than 1,000 individuals. U.S. operations are located in Virginia, South Carolina, Utah and Missouri. FNH USA is the sales and marketing arm of FN. Its corporate mission is to expand the company’s global leadership position in defense, law enforcement and commercial markets by delivering superior products and the finest in training and logistical support. For more information, or to view the entire line of FN products, visit www.fnhusa.com. FNH USA, LLC, P.O. Box 697, McLean, VA 22101 USA.

Toolbox X
05-09-2010, 11:16 PM
If I was going to hold out for anything it would not be the MR556. It would be the still unannounced but will come someday 5.56 version of the REPR. Basically a LWRC M6A3 with the REPR rail system, side charger, and right side bolt hold open/release. LWRC showed the 5.56 REPR rail system at SHOT in Jan., and when I asked about the side charging version he smiled and said "no comment".

cmace22
05-10-2010, 7:11 AM
An Elcan Specter DR in Flat Dark Earth. I got one and it is one bass a** optic, I wouldn't trade it for anything.



How is it proven? It is completely unproven, it has seen extremely limited service for only one year and the reviews from the troops have been fairly mixed. Some have reported that the stock breaking at the plastic teeth of the button. I am sure FN still has some kinks to work out.

And I am not crapping on the weapon, there is no doubt it is great weapon. But calling it proven is like calling Obama an experienced or a successful politician.


I think with more than 5-6 years in R&D with I dont know how many hundreds of thousands maybe millions of rounds down range with combat field use. The SCAR to me looks proven. The ACR/XCR/416 cant even come close to saying that.

http://www.fnhusa.com/mil/press/detail.asp?id=82

“The SCAR is one of the most tested small arms in our military’s history and is currently being employed in the fight to defend freedom,” said United States Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC), member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. “Products of excellence, like the SCAR, represent the continuation of a long and proud tradition of defense manufacturing in South Carolina. I look forward to the continued use of this weapons system.”

CombatMP
06-01-2010, 7:01 PM
ACR over SCAR anyday

Jerry X
06-01-2010, 7:12 PM
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/ORD_HK416_2_GIs_lg.jpg

:King:

UserM4
06-01-2010, 7:18 PM
I think that as far as "proven" is concerned, HK has the other gas pistons beat. It's been in service since like 2005 amirite?

Toolbox X
06-01-2010, 8:17 PM
ACR over SCAR anyday

Shoot both rifles and report back. Then I might respect what you have to say.

CombatMP
06-02-2010, 7:55 AM
Shoot both rifles and report back. Then I might respect what you have to say.

Whatever you say:rolleyes: I don't need your respect. BTW I have fired both rifles. ACR all day over SCAR.

cmace22
06-02-2010, 8:52 AM
Whatever you say:rolleyes: I don't need your respect. BTW I have fired both rifles. ACR all day over SCAR.

Care to enlighten us on why you say that.

SixPointEight
06-02-2010, 8:57 AM
being a civilian and not needing extreme combat proven effectiveness...I'd get the ACR. The H&K is priced retarded high, and the SCAR is just BLEH. The ACR has a certain sexiness about it. And while the selector might feel cheap, the shell deflector may fall off, and it might be a bit front-heavy, that can all be fixed.

UserM4
06-02-2010, 9:19 AM
I don't know how much the HK is but apparently it's really high. I think the ACR is absurdly high too. And Hitler agrees with me.

MichaelKent
06-02-2010, 10:59 AM
From Army / Defense Industry Daily testing (2008):

Extreme Dust Test III stoppages broken out by weapon (Colt M4, HK 416, FN SCAR, and HK XM-8)...

The M4 Carbine is the Army’s existing weapon.

* 882 jams, 1 jam every 68 rounds, again using heavy lubrication. In addition all 10 of the M4 barrels needed to be replaced, and a number of their parts were replaced during the test. None of the cold hammer forged HK416 and XM-8 barrels needed replacement.

The HK416 is a modified M4 carbine, which can be and has been converted from existing rifles. Used by US Special Forces.

* 233 jams, 1 jam every 257 rounds, 3.77x more reliable than the M4.

FN SCAR is US special Forces’ new weapon, designed by SOSOCM. It just went into production in late 2007.

* 226 jams, 1 jam every 265 rounds, 3.85x more reliable than the M4

XM-8 is a developmental rifle. It’s an advanced version of HK’s G36, a rifle in wide use by many NATO armies.

* 127 jams, I jam every 472 rounds, 6.95x more reliable than the M4.


What I've really learned from this thread, and all the information posted in it, is that the Military shouldn't have canceled the XM-8 program...

Apparently H&K is still working on the XM-8. If it's as reliable and effective as the tests seem to indicate, I would love to see it released for civilian use.

CombatMP
06-02-2010, 11:26 AM
Care to enlighten us on why you say that.

Let me put it this way, if I ever go back to the sandbox and can choice between an ACR or a SCAR to bring to combat. I will bring the ACR, just my preference. I not here to start a debate or to enlighten anyone about anything.

cmace22
06-02-2010, 11:42 AM
Let me put it this way, if I ever go back to the sandbox and can choice between an ACR or a SCAR to bring to combat. I will bring the ACR, just my preference. I not here to start a debate or to enlighten anyone about anything.



Then you achieved your goals.

Endless
06-02-2010, 4:22 PM
How about a Colt 6940 with Hk accessories? lol....The upper is also nice....(not pictured of course) ;)

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy32/endlessLE/IMG_0975.jpg?t=1275524017

AlliedArmory
06-02-2010, 5:02 PM
I went with the ACR over the SCAR because of the price and features I do not really need. The folding stock really can't be used in CA and the rails I do not need. The $600 price difference on what I paid helped make the decision too. Can't wait till they come out with the different caliber barrels.

The only thing I do not like about the ACR is the weight.

lehn20
06-02-2010, 10:39 PM
The HK416 is not as reliable as people think. There has been tons of issues with broken bolts also on issue rifles to special teams lately. Don't drink the koolaid.

A well built, well lubed DI gun will keep up with any ACR/SCAR/HK416