PDA

View Full Version : can you use a magpul angled foregrip on a featureless build?


upinflames2400
04-29-2010, 4:55 PM
i was just curious if you could run one or if thats evil, thanks.:p

anniepoks
04-29-2010, 4:57 PM
as i read it here before, NO!
with that you are still able to make a "pistol grasp" that would consider it as an evil feature.

upinflames2400
04-29-2010, 5:04 PM
oh alright thanks :chris:

Joe
04-29-2010, 5:26 PM
No. Don't use one.

ChrisO
04-29-2010, 5:56 PM
Theres a couple threads that cover this pretty well. If I recall correctly it's a no go man.

DouchebagRanger
04-29-2010, 5:59 PM
I wish it was otherwise but unfortunately this is what holds us back.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c192/streetricerr11/DSC04649.jpg

joelogic
04-29-2010, 6:40 PM
Someone will just have to do it and get arrested to really boil this matter out. The forward grip must specifically be a pistol grip. Sure you can grasp a bi-pod but that is legal.

upinflames2400
04-29-2010, 6:53 PM
Yea too bad you can't. That would be bad ***.

CHS
04-29-2010, 7:54 PM
The AFG is fine on a featureless build. You CANT get a pistol-like grasp on it and it's not designed for a pistol-like grasp.

If you really want a VFG on a featureless, just install a bipod. Perfectly legal.

Gio
04-29-2010, 7:58 PM
The AFG is fine on a featureless build. You CANT get a pistol-like grasp on it and it's not designed for a pistol-like grasp.

If you really want a VFG on a featureless, just install a bipod. Perfectly legal.

Good to know, but is there a DOJ Letter that can back it up? Thanks again for the info :)

-Gio

Josh3239
04-29-2010, 8:02 PM
Good to know, but is there a DOJ Letter that can back it up? Thanks again for the info :)

There is no DOJ letter to back up a bullet button. Does it create a pistol style grasp, yes or no? No it does not. It is no different than a Monsterman grip really.

skale240
04-29-2010, 8:35 PM
You can use it, but you have to modify it slightly:

http://exilemachine.com/images/AFG_FIN.JPG

hahah...at first i was like, ok where's the mod?? then i LMAO when I saw the blacked out part!!!

1988
04-29-2010, 9:18 PM
The AFG is fine on a featureless build. You CANT get a pistol-like grasp on it and it's not designed for a pistol-like grasp.

If you really want a VFG on a featureless, just install a bipod. Perfectly legal.

There is no DOJ letter to back up a bullet button. Does it create a pistol style grasp, yes or no? No it does not. It is no different than a Monsterman grip really.

There's no need for the letter from DOJ.

The product is marketed as a "Grip", and there's a triangular opening where you can pass your finger and wrap the frame.

I'd leave it to the professionals to chime in....

Definitely, I won't personally put one on my featureless piece.

CHS
04-29-2010, 9:24 PM
There's no need for the letter from DOJ.

The product is marketed as a "Grip", and there's a triangular opening where you can pass your finger and wrap the frame.


Doesn't matter if you can call it a "grip" or not. You can't get a pistol-style grasp on it. It's not like flash hiders where it actually matters what a product is marketed as. They can call it whatever they want and it doesn't make it any more legal or illegal.

And just because you can pass your finger through it (which, almost no one can, BTW) still doesn't make it a pistol grip.

Fate
04-29-2010, 9:28 PM
My position is pretty well documented in the main threads on these along with my reasoning. I disagree with bdsmchris' stance that "no way no how could you get conviced for this." I think it's unresolved until as joelogic stated:
Someone will just have to do it and get arrested to really boil this matter out.

Being "that guy" is not how I want to spend my time and $.

Bipod even used as forward grip? Legal.
KAC Handstop? Legal.
BUIS upside down used as a forward grip? Legal too.

The above 3 examples are far easier defended in court on a Featureless build than the AFG, due to the published definitions and rulemaking documents that exempt "non-grips" from being classified as a forward pistol grip.

Choose your poison.

Josh3239
04-29-2010, 9:31 PM
There's no need for the letter from DOJ.

The product is marketed as a "Grip", and there's a triangular opening where you can pass your finger and wrap the frame.

I'd leave it to the professionals to chime in....

Definitely, I won't personally put one on my featureless piece.

Really? Is it grip or pistol grip? Is it grip or thumbhole grip? It sounds like you don't even know what you are saying. This product does not create a pistol style grasp. Explain to me how one holds their hand on it is different than a Monsterman grip. It is a pistol grip because it has a hole in the center? Please.

CHS
04-29-2010, 9:37 PM
I disagree with bdsmchris' stance that "no way no how could you get conviced for this."

I have never once said that. Ever.

This is California. You can be convicted for anything here.

Having played with the AFG a LOT, it's quite crystal clear to me that you just cannot get a pistol-grip grasp on it. It's NOT a pistol grip. I am fully comfortable running an AFG on a featureless build. Others are not. That's fine. People still top-load even though they have bullet buttons. People don't like to use 10/03 magazines. People are scared to use hi-caps in legal situations. It all comes down to a legal comfort level. That is all.

Really? Is it grip or pistol grip? Is it grip or thumbhole grip? It sounds like you don't even know what you are saying. This product does not create a pistol style grasp. Explain to me how one holds their hand on it is different than a Monsterman grip. It is a pistol grip because it has a hole in the center? Please.

^This. Times a billion.

Josh3239
04-29-2010, 9:40 PM
Using the pic below of Travis Haley, what you guys are telling me is that both his left and right hand have a pistol grip style grasp. It looks to me personally as though the right hand is a pistol style grasp and the left hand is monsterman style grasp.

http://westernsportonline.com/images/Magpul%20AFG%20Black.jpg

Someone explain to me how an AFG (pictured above) is a pistol grip but the Monsterman grip (pictured below) is not. Better yet, someone explain to me how they are held differently.

http://images22.fotki.com/v754/photos/2/26966/4756782/processedIMG_9684-vi.jpg

Am I the only one who thinks the pictured grasp below, is the same grasp as a Monsterman grip and not the same grasp as a pistol grip style grasp:

http://web.me.com/jallegri/webpix/afg.jpg

So if I squeeze the little nub on the bottom of the Monsterman grip between my thumb and index finger it now becomes a pistol grip?

http://www.parallaxtactical.com/store/bmz_cache/3/3206ba79e4bc79c60e4cc101c68b7c9e.image.733x550.jpg

Fate
04-29-2010, 9:42 PM
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c192/streetricerr11/DSC04649.jpg

This.

Josh3239
04-29-2010, 9:43 PM
I can do that with a Monsterman grip.

Seirously how does this:

https://www.aimsurplus.com/EOS/images/product/xmag411dkear.jpg equal this: https://www.entrygear.com/productimages/CA%20pistol%20grip%20AR%20G27%20black.jpg?

Because you can squeeze the bottom nub? Well then I guess all Monsterman grips are illegal because I can squeeze that little nub as well.

CHS
04-29-2010, 9:45 PM
So if I squeeze the little nub on the bottom of the Monsterman grip between my thumb and index finger it now becomes a pistol grip?

Yup! You're going to JAIL!

I mean, the Monsterman is ADVERTISED as a....... wait for it......

GRIP!

Solar tactical GRIP wraps?

Hammerhead GRIP adapter?

Use one of those and you're all going to jail.

Fate
04-29-2010, 9:46 PM
I have never once said that. Ever.

This is California. You can be convicted for anything here.

Having played with the AFG a LOT, it's quite crystal clear to me that you just cannot get a pistol-grip grasp on it. It's NOT a pistol grip. I am fully comfortable running an AFG on a featureless build. Others are not. That's fine. People still top-load even though they have bullet buttons. People don't like to use 10/03 magazines. People are scared to use hi-caps in legal situations. It all comes down to a legal comfort level. That is all.Actually glad to hear you say that. Often your posts on this come across like this is a black and white issue. Until it's had case law made on it, none of us really know and it might be irresponsible to give noobs blanket "A-OKs" that they'll then hang their hat (and freedom) on.

CHS
04-29-2010, 9:47 PM
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c192/streetricerr11/DSC04649.jpg

This.

Have you ever actually tried to SHOOT a gun while holding the AFG in that manner? It will not allow you to hold onto it. You can pose for a picture all you want, but you still cannot get a pistol grasp on that grip while shooting. No more than you could on a Monsterman grip.

Fate
04-29-2010, 9:48 PM
I can do that with a Monsterman grip.

Seirously how does this:

https://www.aimsurplus.com/EOS/images/product/xmag411dkear.jpg equal this: https://www.entrygear.com/productimages/CA%20pistol%20grip%20AR%20G27%20black.jpg?

Because you can squeeze the bottom nub? Well then I guess all Monsterman grips are illegal because I can squeeze that little nub as well.

Apparently you don't know there's a legal difference between the definition of forward pistol grip and a pistol grip. Come back when you do.

Monsterman used in a forward position would fall into the SAME potential to be classified as a FPG.

1988
04-29-2010, 10:10 PM
Have you ever actually tried to SHOOT a gun while holding the AFG in that manner? It will not allow you to hold onto it. You can pose for a picture all you want, but you still cannot get a pistol grasp on that grip while shooting. No more than you could on a Monsterman grip.

Does that matter to the prosecutor ?

Koolpsych
04-29-2010, 10:14 PM
I think the real answer here is that we can not be certain that it is legal or illegal as there has not been a court case on this matter or a letter from the doj. It is up to the user to determine if the risk is worth it to them.

For me personally... I enjoy my collapsible stocks and pistol grips too much to try featureless anyways!

Josh3239
04-29-2010, 10:28 PM
Apparently you don't know there's a legal difference between the definition of forward pistol grip and a pistol grip. Come back when you do.

So know we are going to character assassination to avoid losing? I don't think so...

Apparently you don't know what a pistol style grip is. Btw, I have read the DOJ definitions for both the forward pistol grip and the pistol grips, have you? I know I have read them because I just did and because I have had it saved in my favorites on my internet explorer for quite some time. And if you had bothered to read the definitions you'd know that the legal difference between a pistol grip is and a forward pistol grip is very very similiar and in both defintions they use very similiar language, one of the most used phrases in both definitions is one I have used many times on here which is "pistol style grasp" which is required for both of those and if the monsterman grip does not create a pistol style grasp then an AFG cannot create a pistol style grasp.

Nice dodging, I'd still like to hear you answer that part about being able to do the same thing to a monsterman grip. Looking at my solar tactical grip I could probably do that as well. I'd still to hear about how one holds an AFG different then a Monsterman grip. I'd still to hear if you think in that picture of Travis Haley if both his hands are showing a pistol style grasp.

1988
04-29-2010, 11:07 PM
.... I have read the DOJ definitions for both the forward pistol grip and the pistol grips.....

Can you point us to the info ? Any link ?

DouchebagRanger
04-29-2010, 11:09 PM
Have you ever actually tried to SHOOT a gun while holding the AFG in that manner? It will not allow you to hold onto it. You can pose for a picture all you want, but you still cannot get a pistol grasp on that grip while shooting. No more than you could on a Monsterman grip.

I didn't know that was defined in the law. Oh wait.. it's not.

Trey1191
04-29-2010, 11:18 PM
DOJ hasn't approved Monsterman grips either so using that as an example has no legal case to uphold it.

CHS
04-29-2010, 11:34 PM
I didn't know that was defined in the law. Oh wait.. it's not.

That doesn't make it any less legally viable.

If you can't get a pistol-style grasp on it while shooting, it simply can't be a pistol grip. Period.

Just because you can pose your hand on it in a pistol-style grasp for a photo doesn't make it a pistol-style grasp.

Trey1191
04-29-2010, 11:45 PM
There not going to shoot it in that manner to prove it to the DA... he's just guna point at it and go look at that evil black rifle w/ a forward pistol grip!

CHS
04-30-2010, 12:12 AM
There not going to shoot it in that manner to prove it to the DA... he's just guna point at it and go look at that evil black rifle w/ a forward pistol grip!

And again by that logic, monsterman grips, solar tactical grip wraps and hammerhead grip adapters are now all illegal too.

Use some sense.

DouchebagRanger
04-30-2010, 2:39 AM
"a grip that allows for a pistol-style grasp" - the most literal interpretation of this would make the AFG on a featureless build illegal. Notice the kind of grip is not specified, therefore at the very least, this allows for inclusion of the AFG.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf#xml=http://search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/19684df6-b623-426c-9565-b1531bb09359/1/hilite/

This is what I have went by from research and it's the only reason I have a BB on my gun.

CHS
04-30-2010, 7:07 AM
"a grip that allows for a pistol-style grasp" - the most literal interpretation of this would make the AFG on a featureless build illegal. Notice the kind of grip is not specified, therefore at the very least, this allows for inclusion of the AFG.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf#xml=http://search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/19684df6-b623-426c-9565-b1531bb09359/1/hilite/

This is what I have went by from research and it's the only reason I have a BB on my gun.

Congratulations.

You've just made the Mini-14 illegal in CA since it has a pistol grip:

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m446/bdsmchs/5805.jpg

Using all the naysayers logic in this thread, I could get a pistol-style grasp where the web of my hand sits below the action of the firearm, turning a normal sporting rifle into an assault rifle.

Trey1191
04-30-2010, 8:21 AM
I am, I'm using common sense to determine that people are inherently stupid, and they will not see the difference. I do see the difference in grip style, but i don't know how a jury of my peers will.

CSACANNONEER
04-30-2010, 8:36 AM
There is a legal definition of what a pistol grip has to be to trigger AW statues. There is not a specific definition of exactly what a forward PG is though.

1988
04-30-2010, 9:13 AM
Congratulations.

You've just made the Mini-14 illegal in CA since it has a pistol grip:

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m446/bdsmchs/5805.jpg

Using all the naysayers logic in this thread, I could get a pistol-style grasp where the web of my hand sits below the action of the firearm, turning a normal sporting rifle into an assault rifle.

I think you're mixing it up.

There's no pistol grip on Mini-14, and there's no "...grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger." on the Mini-14.

REF:

SENATE BILL (SB) 23
Chapter 12.8
Article 2. Definitions of Terms Used to Identify Assault Weapons
Penal Code section 12276.1 (c)
Code of Regulations section 978.20(c)


Back to the topic, as long as someone can show that they can hold the AFG in a posture of a pistol grip, I won't put it on my featureless rifle.

That's just me, and I don't want to spend my time and resource to have a chat with the DA's. ;)

dieselpower
04-30-2010, 11:46 AM
If a DA can hire a 12 year old girl and have her file her finger nail to show a tool is not needed to drop a magazine, I would not put it past them to simply hold a "Grip" like a "pistol" and call it illegal.

The web of the hand is below the exposed portion of the trigger....BUT
The law actually states when describing a "pistol grip type grasp"......wait for it....

".......where the Web of the TRIGGER HAND is below the exposed portion of the trigger....."

Fate
04-30-2010, 1:39 PM
There is a legal definition of what a pistol grip has to be to trigger AW statues. There is not a specific definition of exactly what a forward PG is though.

Yes there is.

Section 978.20 further defines terms used in Penal Code section 12276.

978.20 (c) - Forward Pistol Grip
Forward pistol grip means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.


978.20 (e) - Pistol Grip that Protrudes Conspicuously Beneath the Action of the Weapon
Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

Notice any differences?

Section (e) has a firing component and that's precisely why a MMG or fin grip is ok, because you can't get a pistol grip on those grips AND fire the weapon using said pistol style grasp. Even if you're grabbing the bottom of the grip, like we're talking about for the AFG as a FPG.

For section (c), forward pistol grip, all you have to do is be able to grasp (not hold) the grip in a pistol style grasp. What is grasped has to be a grip as stated in the rulemaking documents http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf. Thus things like bipods or the KAC handstop are O.K. because they are not grips.

Ignore the differences between FPG and PG at your peril.

Fate
04-30-2010, 1:42 PM
So know we are going to character assassination to avoid losing? I don't think so...

Apparently you don't know what a pistol style grip is. Btw, I have read the DOJ definitions for both the forward pistol grip and the pistol grips, have you? I know I have read them because I just did and because I have had it saved in my favorites on my internet explorer for quite some time. And if you had bothered to read the definitions you'd know that the legal difference between a pistol grip is and a forward pistol grip is very very similiar and in both defintions they use very similiar language, one of the most used phrases in both definitions is one I have used many times on here which is "pistol style grasp" which is required for both of those and if the monsterman grip does not create a pistol style grasp then an AFG cannot create a pistol style grasp.

Nice dodging, I'd still like to hear you answer that part about being able to do the same thing to a monsterman grip. Looking at my solar tactical grip I could probably do that as well. I'd still to hear about how one holds an AFG different then a Monsterman grip. I'd still to hear if you think in that picture of Travis Haley if both his hands are showing a pistol style grasp.

How many threads are you going to argue the same points without ever reading the source material I've pointed you to, multiple times in those threads? You even admit to not reading any of it in one of them.

Read and follow links from post 21 on: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=254388

Funny you try and accuse me of not reading the code when I'm the one who has repeatedly posted the law and the rulemaking comment period documents and probably actually schooled YOU on their content.

It's not character assassination if it's true.

R E A D !

DouchebagRanger
04-30-2010, 1:50 PM
Congratulations.

You've just made the Mini-14 illegal in CA since it has a pistol grip:

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m446/bdsmchs/5805.jpg

Using all the naysayers logic in this thread, I could get a pistol-style grasp where the web of my hand sits below the action of the firearm, turning a normal sporting rifle into an assault rifle.

sorry I didn't state the fact that we are talking about a grip in front of the trigger, but I thought it was implied since we were on the subject of FORE GRIPS. What you call "logic" in this argument therefore doesn't apply, especially if you used your "sense" to read page 3 of the link I provided.

Bizcuits
04-30-2010, 1:55 PM
You can use it, but you have to modify it slightly:

http://exilemachine.com/images/AFG_FIN.JPG

lol thats awesome

Fate
04-30-2010, 2:21 PM
:iagree: It's stupid that according to my arguments above and elsewhere, that whale fin mod would be legal on a featureless build. Sad, huh?

CHS
04-30-2010, 3:42 PM
The reason you can't get a pistol-style grasp on an AFG is that the AFG is designed like a wedge. It's like trying to grab a triangle. As you squeeze your grip, your hand naturally gets forced off of the grip. It's pretty simple physics.

It's a bit like trying to hold onto one of those water weenie things.

Fate
04-30-2010, 4:00 PM
The reason you can't get a pistol-style grasp on an AFG is that the AFG is designed like a wedge. It's like trying to grab a triangle. As you squeeze your grip, your hand naturally gets forced off of the grip. It's pretty simple physics.
And when you use the "A2 nub"?

1988
04-30-2010, 4:35 PM
Yeah we forge these AFG FINs out of recycled cast iron but you could do it from polymer too if you wanted lightweight. The polymer fin won't stop a bullet though. Caveat emptor.

Are you talking about airsoft ? :p

CSACANNONEER
04-30-2010, 6:27 PM
Yes there is.

Section 978.20 further defines terms used in Penal Code section 12276.

978.20 (c) - Forward Pistol Grip
Forward pistol grip means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.


978.20 (e) - Pistol Grip that Protrudes Conspicuously Beneath the Action of the Weapon
Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

Notice any differences?

Section (e) has a firing component and that's precisely why a MMG or fin grip is ok, because you can't get a pistol grip on those grips AND fire the weapon using said pistol style grasp. Even if you're grabbing the bottom of the grip, like we're talking about for the AFG as a FPG.

For section (c), forward pistol grip, all you have to do is be able to grasp (not hold) the grip in a pistol style grasp. What is grasped has to be a grip as stated in the rulemaking documents http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/fsor.pdf. Thus things like bipods or the KAC handstop are O.K. because they are not grips.

Ignore the differences between FPG and PG at your peril.

Thanks!

till44
04-30-2010, 6:35 PM
To the OP. NO one is sure, but we all have opinions. Do what you feel ok with doing.

These threads lately have been entertaining...

anniepoks
04-30-2010, 6:52 PM
To the OP. NO one is sure, but we all have opinions. Do what you feel ok with doing.

These threads lately have been entertaining...

+1! and amen i say.

1988
04-30-2010, 8:58 PM
To the OP. NO one is sure, but we all have opinions. Do what you feel ok with doing.

These threads lately have been entertaining...

+1! and amen i say.

I hope that we see the danger of open-end statements.

It's just as well as ignorance to act by feeling when it comes to abiding to the laws, specially when it's AW laws.

It's just a foreward grip and I could not imagine how someone would risk a major consequence to use something without a clear definition.

till44
05-01-2010, 4:58 AM
I hope that we see the danger of open-end statements.

It's just as well as ignorance to act by feeling when it comes to abiding to the laws, specially when it's AW laws.

It's just a foreward grip and I could not imagine how someone would risk a major consequence to use something without a clear definition.

I meant what do you feel is legal, what do you feel you can defend in court... not what makes you feel warm and fuzzy. It can be argued both ways, keep in mind, that you're already disadvantaged being a gun owner in CA, but it can easily be argued that the AFG is not a pistol grip, and can legally be used on a featureless build.

There is no clear definition, that's the problem and reason for the wide interpretation. There has been no clear definition from DOJ concerning the MMG (still a grip) or bullet button (mag can still be detached) but everyone feels fine doing that now. (I understand why the MMG and BB are legal in terms of the letter of the law, but a shark of a DA could go after you anyways for breaking the "spirit" of the law, as it's pretty easy to show that they're just technicalities for what the leg. intended.)

Again, my point was that there is a lot of uncertainty on the issue. If you feel that an AFG is legal on a featureless build, and feel it has a solid legal defense, go ahead and do it. Someone has to be a test case. I wouldn't use one, but that is my opinion and it seems that there are just as many that think the other way. Get a handstop, it functions nearly the same anyways.

1988
05-01-2010, 2:13 PM
....Get a handstop, it functions nearly the same anyways.

I do have a couple of the AFG's on my neutered rifles. However, If I still have a reasonable doubt about the AFG as a featureless device, I won't put one on my featureless rifle.

jimx
05-01-2010, 7:32 PM
legal issues aside what is the purpose? Looks very unconformable. I've never tried one maybe I am off base and it is the best thing since sliced bread...
For the people that like it what is it that you like?

destro360
05-01-2010, 7:54 PM
i got a question... wtf would you want one in the first place?? secondly especially if your not even sure of its legality.

darkjedi351
05-01-2010, 8:42 PM
i got a question... wtf would you want one in the first place?? secondly especially if your not even sure of its legality.

+1!!!!

I think some of these people TROLL these threads just to start arguments. It's getting real old.:confused:

It sounds like this is iffy legally. so instal and use at your own risk. The only way there will be any clarification is when somebody fights their theory in court on what is and what isn't a forward pistol grip.

It doesn't matter what we think. if the prosecutor can hold it like a pg and make it look like a pg and convince a judge then that's what it will be.

f33dback
05-01-2010, 8:51 PM
Why would you want one?

darkjedi351
05-01-2010, 9:29 PM
Why would you want one?

something to do with ERGONOMICS and the muscles, tendens that are strained when your hand is flat palm up. it lessons fatigue. that's what magpul says atleast.

from magpul,
Taking into account natural body mechanics, the
shape and angle of the AFG improve weapon control,
help mitigate recoil, and reduce shooter fatigue.

Great link with pictures and explanation. I have one on my CA compliant sage.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/02/new-magpul-afg-angled-foregrip/

Fate
05-02-2010, 8:31 AM
something to do with ERGONOMICS and the muscles, tendens that are strained when your hand is flat palm up. it lessons fatigue. that's what magpul says atleast.

from magpul,
Taking into account natural body mechanics, the
shape and angle of the AFG improve weapon control,
help mitigate recoil, and reduce shooter fatigue.

Great link with pictures and explanation. I have one on my CA compliant sage.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/12/02/new-magpul-afg-angled-foregrip/

And if you notice, the KAC handstop and the AFG show the exact same hand position ;)

killathrilla
07-30-2011, 12:20 PM
...

CK_32
07-30-2011, 12:30 PM
Wow wow wow..... I thought the AFG was a loop hole around the pistol grip.....

Someone posted a picture a while back of the monster man and afg having the same angle which then makes it non pistol grip.

CK_32
07-30-2011, 12:31 PM
sorry I didn't state the fact that we are talking about a grip in front of the trigger, but I thought it was implied since we were on the subject of FORE GRIPS. What you call "logic" in this argument therefore doesn't apply, especially if you used your "sense" to read page 3 of the link I provided.

LMAO dude a pistol grip is a pistol grip....... If it doesnt count as a pistol grip if its behind the trigger then why do you need to have a monster man grip on your AR...? Its behind the trigger isnt it :rolleyes:

http://exilemachine.com/images/AFG_FIN.JPG

And when I drop my mag I could then put my thumb around it so ILLEGAL!!!!!!!!!!!

:rofl2:

Fate
07-31-2011, 8:30 AM
Any change of opinions on the magpul for the featureless rifles in the last year?....Im looking on building a featureless and I was just doing some homework before buying...

No change. This and other threads on the matter have the issue solidly grey until decided in court.