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choprzrul
04-29-2010, 3:35 PM
Thread content removed per advice from some of the big brained people.

adamsreeftank
04-29-2010, 4:23 PM
At least he took the time to talk to you.

When I went to the local PD and asked for an application, they told me the Chief doesn't issue them and turned me away at the door.

If you are going to go for it, you might talk to Billy Jack. This seems to be his specialty.

todd2968
04-29-2010, 4:32 PM
So did you bring up someones constitutional right to keep and bear arms?
Did he stop issuing guns to his police force, because they might have them taken away?
Sounds you got "handled"
Did you ask him if he swore an oath to support and defend the constitution when he was sworn in?

curtisfong
04-29-2010, 4:40 PM
Or mention that he has no legal liability?

It is sad that nobody is ever in a position to debate CLEOs properly.

Glock22Fan
04-29-2010, 4:40 PM
This would seem relevant, even though no public officials are involved:

Salute v. Pitchess (http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com/legal/salute.html)


While a court cannot compel a public officer to exercise his discretion in any particular manner, it may direct him to exercise that discretion. We regard the case at bench as involving a refusal of the sheriff to exercise the discretion given him by the statute. Section 12050 imposes only three limits on the grant of an application to carry a concealed weapon: the applicant must be of good moral character, show good cause and be a resident of the county. To determine, in advance, as a uniform rule, that only selected public officials can show good cause is to refuse to consider the existence of good cause on the part of citizens generally and is an abuse of, and not an exercise of, discretion.

sfpcservice
04-29-2010, 4:40 PM
Wow,

What's to like about a man who thinks he knows what's best for you and your family? Sounds like a card carrying member of the California Police Chief's Association.

Look around here some more and you'll find a video with CPCA representatives explaining their opinion of your ability to carry a weapon.

I think that your Chief may be in direct violation of case law with his issuing practices. How is your Sheriff? You may find relief there. If not, Billy Jack may be your best shot. My advice, contact him now before you do anything else.

Barkoff
04-29-2010, 5:35 PM
Couple of questions..

Did you talk to the sheriff of your county?

Did you omit the town or city on purpose? I would be interested in knowing where in central Cali we are talking about.

PM?

Glock22Fan
04-29-2010, 5:40 PM
Couple of questions..

Did you talk to the sheriff of your county?

Did you omit the town or city on purpose? I would be interested in knowing where in central Cali we are talking about.

PM?

He is wise to leave out the town or city. Too much detail on the web doesn't do you any good at all in this situation.

Blackhawk556
04-29-2010, 5:43 PM
if someone applies and gets denied, can they apply again in the future or is that their last chance?

is their a waiting period they must wait in order to reapply?

Barkoff
04-29-2010, 5:45 PM
He is wise to leave out the town or city. Too much detail on the web doesn't do you any good at all in this situation.

OK, maybe he'll be OK sending me a PM. Being from the same area I would love to know.

press1280
04-29-2010, 5:56 PM
This would seem relevant, even though no public officials are involved:

Salute v. Pitchess (http://www.californiaconcealedcarry.com/legal/salute.html)

I was thinking the same thing. It's also BS that he's afraid of getting sued. As long as he doesn't issue to felons and follows the law, he's clear.
McDonald will be here in 2 months. You could apply now so McDonald will be hot off the presses when you get your denial. I'm assuming CA has a mechanism for an appeal of a denial(one where you can appeal without shelling out $$ for court fees)? You could do that. It may help to brush up on 2A law.

choprzrul
04-29-2010, 9:13 PM
Removed, see posting #1

cosmos7
04-29-2010, 9:28 PM
Now I know you're talking about SLO, Jerry Lenthall is supposedly pro-CCW as well...

I for one am very glad Hedges is leaving.

Paladin
04-29-2010, 9:59 PM
Check out the related links in my sig line.

I've got about another half-dozen examples of CCWers saving lives that I've yet to add to my list.

Milsurp Collector
04-29-2010, 10:20 PM
He is also unaware of data that shows reduced crime rates in areas that adopt CCW policies.

See
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html
http://johnrlott.tripod.com/postsbyday/RTCResearch.html

HokeySon
04-29-2010, 10:41 PM
Although my original post is long, there are details left out. Yes, I did respond that him, the dept, and the city can't be sued and used DMV as an example. He said that the problem was just fighting the frivolous lawsuits and the associated expense.


You know when they play the liability card, you can also try to flip it over? Suggest that if something happens to someone denied a CCW, they could get sued as well. No liability either way, but ...... no one ever seems to bring that issue up.

DParker
04-29-2010, 10:44 PM
Sounds to me like the Pismo area. Doesn't he know that hordes of us from Fresno/Madera/Kern counties spend our weekends over there and many of us CCW? He has lots of CCWs walking around his town rather he knows it (or likes it) or not.

Liberty1
04-29-2010, 10:51 PM
The playing field changes in TWO MONTHS!!! :chris:

Bill Carson
04-29-2010, 11:04 PM
Cops only want Cops to have guns

CalNRA
04-30-2010, 3:14 AM
the same statement can be from essentially ANY police chief and sheriff on the central coast area. There are known departments where the sheriff brags that he didn't issue to the plebs.

I can't think of any reason other than these politicians are safe because all the new immigrants and transplants to the region have a poor grasp of and in many cases extreme contempt toward the RKBA, and will vote for/support a CLEO as long as he shows up at a _____ community function and shake a few hands.

paul0660
04-30-2010, 7:06 AM
We have fabulous response times to true emergency calls

Unfortunately this chief controls your ability to carry when you are NOT in his jurisdiction. Our Sheriff is realistic enough to believe that CCW is a necessity for the qualified, both in the 4000 sq. miles of our county, where response time could be hours, and every where else in the state. Ask the chief if you can have one of his officers tag along when you leave town. Offer to buy the donuts on the trip.

Bugei
04-30-2010, 8:28 AM
I like this chief and firmly believe that he has done good things with the department considering budget constraints.
...
Can the big brains weigh in?

Not one of the big brains myself. But I don't like this chief. He's wrong on just about every item he mentioned to you. And if he's wrong on these items, I think it's safe to say that he's wrong on a lot of others.

The guy doesn't believe you have the right to carry the things you need to defend yourself. He may say he believes you have the right to defend yourself, but without the tools, he's kidding himself...possibly at the expense of your life.

If he thought there was no danger, why are his officers armed? Because his officers are armed, there must therefore be danger, but he's willing to take the risk that you'll be killed. Because he's an idiot.

GuyW
04-30-2010, 11:23 AM
Sue his clueless, elitist ***...
.

Librarian
04-30-2010, 11:53 AM
Sounds like he's a competent department head for the city, which is good as far as it goes.

It also sounds like he reflects much of the common city government antipathy towards CCW; it would not be at all surprising if his conduct re CCW was a hiring question, and he's doing what the city government wants - and he was hired in part because he has no problem with that.

The Sheriff may issue to folks who live in cities in his/her county, presuming the city doesn't object; it seems the different government levels try not to step on one another's toes.

I'd wait for the result of Sykes v McGinness (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Sykes_v._McGinness), but my circumstances have no urgency, so I can afford to do that.

CEDaytonaRydr
04-30-2010, 11:54 AM
I heard the line about not wanting to get the city sued for issuing, not thinking that there is any need for a citizen to be armed..

Apply, get turned down, refer him to the U.S. Constitution Amendment 2 and then sue him. Have all of your gun-owning friends do the same.

If his motivation for not issuing them is because of his lack of a desire to be sued, suing the guy will change his perspective in your favor... ;)

metalhead357
04-30-2010, 12:16 PM
Quote edited out per OP's request

Yeah.... NICE hypocrite in a possition of power that needs to be voted out.

pnkssbtz
04-30-2010, 12:28 PM
Ask him this:

Will he guarantee that if you and your family are ever in a life threatening situation that he will absolutely be there and protect and defend them with his life?

Can he make such a guarantee to always be there?

Ask him how many rape victims were saved by the police showing up in a timely fashion?

Ask him how a piece of paper and some words of assurance by the local police protected the plaintiff in Castle Rock v. Gonzales.

Hogxtz
04-30-2010, 12:37 PM
He is not a good sheriff because he is breaking his oath to uphold the constitution for his own personal bias. This guy is worse than Sacramento's McGinnes and he is being sued for his practice. Maybe your Sheriff needs to be "schooled" as well. Who the hell is he to decide that he can carry ccw but not even his reserves? WTF?? What a P.O.S.!!

Librarian
04-30-2010, 12:49 PM
Apply, get turned down, refer him to the U.S. Constitution Amendment 2 and then sue him. Have all of your gun-owning friends do the same.

If his motivation for not issuing them is because of his lack of a desire to be sued, suing the guy will change his perspective in your favor... ;)

Before McDonald and Sykes, the applicant will lose such a suit. Might lose anyway, but that 2nd A claim will be tossed on CA and US 9th Circuit precedent until that precedent is mooted by McDonald.

CEDaytonaRydr
04-30-2010, 2:33 PM
Before McDonald and Sykes, the applicant will lose such a suit. Might lose anyway, but that 2nd A claim will be tossed on CA and US 9th Circuit precedent until that precedent is mooted by McDonald.

Probably...

That being said, if we bog down the system with lawsuits for CCW permits, they will have no choice but to start issuing them. Do you know what it costs to keep a lawyer on retainer to fight a simple case over a CCW permit? Plus, it keeps them from dealing with the "real" crime that they have to deal with on a daily basis.

The entire state government (and most local government, I might add) is completely broke. They don't have the money to fight us right now...

socalblue
04-30-2010, 3:02 PM
Speak to the CLEO again. Let him know you understand his viewpoint & you agree to disagree.

Give him an easy out - sign a "G" memo with the Sheriff (Win/Win for all - CCW's get issued & he doesn't have to deal with the issue at all). Work hard to get a pro RKBA Sheriff elected.

twotap
04-30-2010, 3:45 PM
Apply . But it needs to be done by the hundreds and hundreds to be affective.. And it is not, so it is easy to blow you off..In this political enviroment it seems to be about nothing but demand..We need to start a campaign to have all citizens armed with CCW. And have sign-up days.Where hundreds and hundreds of people apply all at the same time state wide..It would show a demand for a licence that can be issued state wide. Then what would it look like if hundreds were denied??? I wonder if that would really happen ? I think that would be a great campaign for Calgun members to start in each county as The summer of CCW . Perfect for the election year.

stormy_clothing
04-30-2010, 5:26 PM
Can I just say that if I am going to be told no by someone it's comforting to know they are at least doing the job I payed them for so I don't have to.

Cokebottle
04-30-2010, 5:43 PM
This was the city cop?
If so, that's par for the course.
The City of Chino has also issued zero CCW to private individuals, even though they have the authority to do so.
A part of the process of applying in the County of San Bernardino is to first apply to your city.
So you contact the city cops, they deny you without prejudice, and you then move on with the county procedures.

When a city denies, they can deny either with or without prejudice... without simply says to the county "We won't issue, but we don't care if you do."

It's actually better to have a county-issued permit anyways. With a city-issued permit, if you move to a different city, your permit becomes invalid in, I believe, 90 days.
With a county-issued permit, you're good to go as long as you don't move out of the county of issue.

SickofSoCal
04-30-2010, 5:46 PM
We only have the illusion of freedom.

advocatusdiaboli
04-30-2010, 8:55 PM
Well, I learned a lesson here: I live in a city, but I'll try my county instead. However, I don't think my county will issue come Hell or high water until McDonald opens the flood gates. EIEIO.

Cokebottle
04-30-2010, 9:06 PM
Too bad you don't go through him for the permit. You need to talk to your county Sheriff.
The local CLEO has authority to issue, but nearly every city has a gentleman's agreement with the County SO to abdicate that responsibility to the county authority for permits issued to the general public.

The local CLEO may still issue to local police/fire employees.

Francis Marion
04-30-2010, 9:18 PM
...

Hypocrisy.

We humbly ask 'The Man', hat in hand, if we might be allowed to exercise our constitutional rights. And The Man says 'No!' it is not in your best interests to do so.

Curiously, it's self-evident to The Man that it's prudent to have arms nearby when needed- but only for himself.

This is a case of the blind leading the meek who were formerly the free and the brave.

GuyW
04-30-2010, 9:20 PM
The local CLEO has authority to issue, but nearly every city has a gentleman's agreement with the County SO to abdicate that responsibility to the county authority for permits issued to the general public.

The local CLEO may still issue to local police/fire employees.

..everything you describe is illegal under current law...
.

Cokebottle
04-30-2010, 9:45 PM
..everything you describe is illegal under current law...
.
How so?

That is the way it works in San Bernardino County.

WhiteSands
04-30-2010, 11:03 PM
Wonder what an attorney could do for you if you were to be hurt or robbed now?

JonVP_76
04-30-2010, 11:26 PM
Couple of questions..

Did you talk to the sheriff of your county?

Did you omit the town or city on purpose? I would be interested in knowing where in central Cali we are talking about.

PM?

I think he lives near Pismo Beach. The Sheriffs election is this year and there are a couple of favorites. Most of the candidates are in-favor of issuing CCW's to citizens.


Cortes

socalblue
05-01-2010, 12:34 AM
Wonder what an attorney could do for you if you were to be hurt or robbed now?

Nothing. City has no liability in regard to permits/licenses issued or denied per the Government Code.

flyinverted
05-01-2010, 12:38 AM
This site has a GREAT AW flowchart. It would be nice to see a reference sheet for speaking to LEO regarding CCW issuance.

Cokebottle
05-01-2010, 2:02 PM
This site has a GREAT AW flowchart. It would be nice to see a reference sheet for speaking to LEO regarding CCW issuance.
CalCCW and Billyjack are very helpful in that area.

bucket49
05-01-2010, 2:25 PM
Intersting, but I must ask why any "GOOD" citizen needs permission from his or her EMPLOYEES to take care of theirselves!!!!!!!!

flummaxed