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View Full Version : Transporting a pistol in an F-150- Unloaded, locked enough?


WhiteSands
04-29-2010, 12:51 AM
Is it legal to have a pistol in my truck?

Unloaded locked in a marked plastic GLOCK case using a gun lock.

Is this legal?

Do the magazines need to be in another case and or unloaded?

PutTogether
04-29-2010, 3:05 AM
yes you are ok. mags do not have to be locked, or even separate from the gun, they just cant be loaded AND IN the gun

GrizzlyGuy
04-29-2010, 7:13 AM
If "gun lock" means a trigger lock, then no, not legal. If "gun lock" instead means a pad lock or combo lock that secures the case and prevents it from being opened then you are OK (whether or not a trigger lock is in place). More info here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transporting#CONCEALED_handgun_transport).

MossbergMan
04-29-2010, 8:37 AM
Search CA. penal codes. section 12026.1, but the posts above are accurate.
Unloaded in locked container (excluding the glove or utility compartments)Ammunition cannot be physically attached. 12030-31 (defines loaded gun in public)

advocatusdiaboli
04-29-2010, 10:11 AM
mags do not have to be locked, or even separate from the gun, they just cant be loaded AND IN the gun

Magazines cannot be loaded even if not touching the firearm? Or is the "AND IN" the significant? I thought they just cannot be touching the firearm if loaded. Ammunition doesn't even have to be locked at all. Or is a magazine, even when not in the firearm, still considered a firearm and therefore cannot be loaded either (as nonsensical as that may seem)?

paul0660
04-29-2010, 10:16 AM
The locked/unloaded law applies to everything but Chevies.

what puttogether meant is that mags CAN be loaded, but not in the gun, and the same container is ok. "Touching" is ok, "in a position where the gun can fire the cartridges" is not, including a loaded mag in a pistol, cocked or not.

advocatusdiaboli
04-29-2010, 10:19 AM
what puttogether meant is that mags CAN be loaded, but not in the gun, and the same container is ok. "Touching" is ok, "in a position where the gun can fire the cartridges" is not, including a loaded mag in a pistol, cocked or not.

Thanks--just wanted to be clear.

In the mean time, I just checked the CHP site: "Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well."

Doesn't say anything about touching the firearm nor about loaded magazines being prohibited.

Glock22Fan
04-29-2010, 10:27 AM
Thanks--just wanted to be clear.

In the mean time, I just checked the CHP site: "Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well."

Doesn't say anything about touching the firearm nor about loaded magazines being prohibited.

CHP has it right. However, and feel free to ignore this, some of us feel that there may be law enforcement types who aren't up to date with People v. Clark. I know a firearms instructor who insists that a loaded mag equates to a loaded gun, even with no gun present.

Depending how paranoid you want to be, keep the loaded mags out of the locked gun case. To be really paranoid and beyond reproach (and totally unnecessary from the legal standpoint) keep your loaded mags in a separate locked case.

My personal practice is to keep everything out of sight. That way it never gets questioned.

That way you are unlikely to be delayed whilst an officious officer seeks guidance on whether you are illegal or not.

paul0660
04-29-2010, 10:27 AM
Yes, that CHP faq is remarkably clear and keeping a copy handy with registration and insurance is a heck of an idea.

Old4eyes
04-29-2010, 10:55 AM
A couple of items to note:

Yes, keep the guns out of sight. If they are in view, probable cause.

But remember if a LEO asks if you have guns in the vehicle and you answer yes, you have provided probable cause for them to examine them to see if you have complied with the law. You could refuse to answer under the protection of the 5th amendment thus not giving probable cause. You could lie and say no, and if they find some other reason to search the vehicle and find the guns, then they have you for lying to the officer.

As to a loaded speed loader or magazine outside of the weapon, yes it's legal. Unfortunately, there are many who think it is not legal.

And if a LEO thinks it's not you'll either be inconvenienced in possibly getting him to see it your way or you may be further inconvenienced by traversing the court system. You SHOULD WIN, but I question whether or not it is worth it. When I am going to the range, the magazines and speed loaders are empty in a separate bag from the weapon.

Having said that, you can assure yourself that the magazines are loaded as are my wife's speed loaders while in the confines of the house.

M198
04-29-2010, 4:03 PM
Pistol need to be in a locked container in Condition 4. Mags can be inside or outside of the locked container. Why don't more people on this site use weapon conditions more often? Condition 4 = Chamber empty, weapon on safe, bolt forward (not applicable), no magazine inserted.

adamsreeftank
04-29-2010, 4:13 PM
If all you have is a glock case and a crappy "ca approved" cable lock, you can put your gun in the case and use the lock to "secure" the case. Just wrap the cable around the handles a few times and lock it. As long as you can't open the case and get the gun without destroying the lock or the case, you should be OK.

Just using the cable lock on the gun and leaving it in an unlocked case would probably get you in trouble.

please note: this is not legal advice, and this only applies to the F-150.

Glock22Fan
04-29-2010, 4:48 PM
Pistol need to be in a locked container in Condition 4. Mags can be inside or outside of the locked container. Why don't more people on this site use weapon conditions more often? Condition 4 = Chamber empty, weapon on safe, bolt forward (not applicable), no magazine inserted.

I don't use it because I think we have enough newbs that would need it explaining every time.

Glock22Fan
04-29-2010, 4:50 PM
[QUOTE=Old4eyes;4206811]
snip ..

But remember if a LEO asks if you have guns in the vehicle and you answer yes, you have provided probable cause for them to examine them to see if you have complied with the law. You could refuse to answer under the protection of the 5th amendment thus not giving probable cause. You could lie and say no, and if they find some other reason to search the vehicle and find the guns, then they have you for lying to the officer.

.. snip
QUOTE]

Or you (very politely) say "There's nothing illegal in my car."

Some people think it escalates the situation but my actual experience saying this has worked out fine - I just had to repeat it a few times until he got the picture that that was all I was going to say on the subject.

WhiteSands
04-30-2010, 12:17 AM
Great Info.

Thank you all.

nemisis1400
04-30-2010, 12:30 AM
I think all the late nights is getting to me, when i saw this thread I thought it said "Transporting a pistol in an F-15- Unloaded, locked enough?"

I was about to demand pics

PutTogether
04-30-2010, 12:34 AM
The locked/unloaded law applies to everything but Chevies.

what puttogether meant is that mags CAN be loaded, but not in the gun, and the same container is ok. "Touching" is ok, "in a position where the gun can fire the cartridges" is not, including a loaded mag in a pistol, cocked or not.

That's what I meant alright.


It's worth nothing that you'll never find laws that say something is "legal." Laws tell you what is NOT legal.

As long as the pistol itself is completely not loaded (no rounds in a cylinder, no rounds chambered, and no loaded mags in the mag well), and is locked in a container that ISNT your glove box or center console, you can do whatever you damn well please with your magazines and ammunition in your car.

Note the "locked container" part goes away for long guns, but the "unloaded' requirement does not.

This means, that if you want to, you could grab an empty shotgun or rifle, and have it sitting upfront with you - even if you had cases of ammo in the backseat (or in a side saddle/buttstock cuff) on the gun.

I don't write this to suggest you do it, but merely to point out that the transportation of firearms by people allowed to HAVE firearms is not nearly as restricted as some people think it is. It is MUCH MORE restricted than it SHOULD be, but not as bad as some think.

Bill Carson
04-30-2010, 12:38 AM
Yes, that CHP faq is remarkably clear and keeping a copy handy with registration and insurance is a heck of an idea.

That is what I do.

DTOM CA!
04-30-2010, 8:23 AM
I have a F250 truck and when I go to the range I put most of my guns and ammo in the truck bed. They are always unloaded but not always locked and I cover them up with a blanket. What does the law say about truck beds ?

tyrist
04-30-2010, 9:40 AM
CHP has it right. However, and feel free to ignore this, some of us feel that there may be law enforcement types who aren't up to date with People v. Clark. I know a firearms instructor who insists that a loaded mag equates to a loaded gun, even with no gun present.

Depending how paranoid you want to be, keep the loaded mags out of the locked gun case. To be really paranoid and beyond reproach (and totally unnecessary from the legal standpoint) keep your loaded mags in a separate locked case.

My personal practice is to keep everything out of sight. That way it never gets questioned.

That way you are unlikely to be delayed whilst an officious officer seeks guidance on whether you are illegal or not.

I think he is just misinterpreting a legal ruling. I believe the ruling merely found that since the magazine was an integral part of a functioning firearm that by concealing the loaded magazine the person was therefor illegally concealing the firearm. The guy still had an actual firearm on him though.

Old4eyes
04-30-2010, 9:41 AM
[QUOTE=Old4eyes;4206811]
snip ..

But remember if a LEO asks if you have guns in the vehicle and you answer yes, you have provided probable cause for them to examine them to see if you have complied with the law. You could refuse to answer under the protection of the 5th amendment thus not giving probable cause. You could lie and say no, and if they find some other reason to search the vehicle and find the guns, then they have you for lying to the officer.

.. snip
QUOTE]

Or you (very politely) say "There's nothing illegal in my car."

Some people think it escalates the situation but my actual experience saying this has worked out fine - I just had to repeat it a few times until he got the picture that that was all I was going to say on the subject.


Check out this law professor on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

and then watch the LEO on the follow up talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE

Indeed, you can state that "There's nothing illegal in my car." And that may defuse the situation right there. But let's play the paranoia game here. You dropped something while driving and instead of pulling over and stopping the vehicle to safely retrieve it, you hunt around and for a moment drive erratically.

You get pulled over and the officer suspects DUI, alcohol or drugs. He does not smell the presence of either but if he SUSPECTS drug use he is allowed to search the vehicle for drugs. See page 3 on this PDF: http://le.alcoda.org/publications/point_of_view/files/PC_Search.pdf .

So if the LEO is having a bad day he may come up with a probable cause to search. Now, you've told the officer you have nothing illegal. He finds your covered weapons in transport. Magazine is loaded but not in the magwell. Heck, maybe not even the same container housing the weapon. He thinks it's illegal and gets you TWICE. You told him nothing was illegal and in his mind you lied. It's going to be a bad day. Want to make it worse, your kid borrowed your car and left a joint behind. Fun times will be had.

From now on I will be silent and if they persist in asking if there are drugs or guns in the vehicle I will say "I am politely refusing to answer that question under the protections provided by the fifth amendment" and if they "Do you mind if I look in your vehicle?", the answer is not no (meaning you don't mind if he looks in you car) but "You do not have my permission to search my vehicle".

GuyW
04-30-2010, 11:15 AM
yes you are ok. mags do not have to be locked, or even separate from the gun, they just cant be loaded AND IN the gun, but can be loaded and within the locked case

...fixed it...

.

GuyW
04-30-2010, 11:18 AM
Yes, that CHP faq is remarkably clear and keeping a copy handy with registration and insurance is a heck of an idea.

Until a few years ago, the CHP website used to advise having a handgun in the desert areas....then it went PC...

.

Glock22Fan
04-30-2010, 11:26 AM
So if the LEO is having a bad day he may come up with a probable cause to search. Now, you've told the officer you have nothing illegal. He finds your covered weapons in transport. Magazine is loaded but not in the magwell. Heck, maybe not even the same container housing the weapon. He thinks it's illegal and gets you TWICE. You told him nothing was illegal and in his mind you lied. It's going to be a bad day. Want to make it worse, your kid borrowed your car and left a joint behind. Fun times will be had.

And, in another thread, they called me paranoid?

I have to admit that once when I said that, there were others (teenagers) who could have stashed something, and the officer knew this because they were there. I actually said "To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing illegal . . "

He then asked me several times "But what is your personal attitude to marijuana, should it be legal?" to which I replied several times "To the best of my knowledge . . . ."

Old4eyes
04-30-2010, 1:22 PM
"To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing illegal . . "

followed by

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

What you say may give probable cause.
What you say may be used against you in a court of law.
You answer truthfully, and it might be considered a lie in court.

A quote I once heard was the the Mossad considered "no comment" to be a comment.

Silence is golden.

Am I paranoid? Well someone I know when stopped on a traffic violation was asked if he had guns in the car.

He answered truthfully he had guns in the trunk being transported in a legal manner.

He was asked to step out and was handcuffed while the officer checked his trunk. No weapon violations found, sign off on the traffic violation (after the handcuffs have been removed) and have a nice day.

The question "Do you have anything illegal in the car" is a wide open gotcha if THEY consider what you have in the car illegal. His knowledge of the law trumps your knowledge of the law while in the field. Yes, you may be exonerated in court, but you'll be paying lawyer and court fees.

Glock22Fan
04-30-2010, 3:09 PM
"To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing illegal . . "

followed by

Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

What you say may give probable cause.
What you say may be used against you in a court of law.
You answer truthfully, and it might be considered a lie in court.

A quote I once heard was the the Mossad considered "no comment" to be a comment.

Silence is golden.

Am I paranoid? Well someone I know when stopped on a traffic violation was asked if he had guns in the car.

He answered truthfully he had guns in the trunk being transported in a legal manner.

He was asked to step out and was handcuffed while the officer checked his trunk. No weapon violations found, sign off on the traffic violation (after the handcuffs have been removed) and have a nice day.

The question "Do you have anything illegal in the car" is a wide open gotcha if THEY consider what you have in the car illegal. His knowledge of the law trumps your knowledge of the law while in the field. Yes, you may be exonerated in court, but you'll be paying lawyer and court fees.

No comment :)

Meplat
05-01-2010, 10:46 AM
Around about condition 137 I went to sleep.

Pistol need to be in a locked container in Condition 4. Mags can be inside or outside of the locked container. Why don't more people on this site use weapon conditions more often? Condition 4 = Chamber empty, weapon on safe, bolt forward (not applicable), no magazine inserted.