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View Full Version : ATF Grip by Shoeless Ventures okay to use?


shooterx10
03-02-2006, 8:31 AM
I know that the SRB can be used in place of the pistol grip if you're going the detachable mag route, but has anyone thought of using this accessory?

http://www.fabten.com/ATF%20Grip_cutout-RGB_Web%20(1).jpg

The only company I can find who is selling it is Shoeless Ventures, the current maker of the FAB-10.

Stanze
03-02-2006, 8:35 AM
DOJ considers that a thumbhole stock since the stock is over the web of your hand.

SI-guru
03-02-2006, 8:41 AM
Some info on CA DOJ definition of a pistol grip or not.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/pistolgrip.htm

kick Z tail out
03-02-2006, 9:00 AM
DOJ considers that a thumbhole stock since the stock is over the web of your hand.
So that isn't legal now? What the hell... I thought those were!

PanzerAce
03-02-2006, 9:13 AM
nope, apparently thumbhole stocks make a rifle even more deadly.

shopkeep
03-02-2006, 9:19 AM
Bill and Ben have both said they believe the Shoeless venture grip would be lawful. Personally I'd say if you wanna play it safe use an SRB type grip (just cap off the PG area with a retaining bracket).

Whether or not its legal is besides the point anyways because Shoeless Ventures won't sell you one. I tried to buy one a while back and all I got was, "Why do you want one?" and some other discussions. Shoeless Ventures is fully aware of the off-list lower situation and is seeking to capitolize on it.

nrandell
03-02-2006, 9:48 AM
How the heck can the Shoeless Ventures grip be called a "thumbhole stock"? First: it's not a stock, and second: there's no hole!

Why won't they sell you a grip? It seems like they would love to sell you a $50 piece of plastic that probably cost more like 50 cents to make.

bwiese
03-02-2006, 9:51 AM
Bill and Ben have both said they believe the Shoeless venture grip would be lawful. Personally I'd say if you wanna play it safe use an SRB type grip (just cap off the PG area with a retaining bracket).


Did I? Hmmm. If I did I'm really having second thoughts about it. While it ain't a pistol grip and not a thumbhole stock, it's certainly a composite of the two.

I'd stay away.

TonyNorCal
03-02-2006, 9:59 AM
Well,

I just called Michael at Fab-10 (good guy by the way).

They are in fact willing to send these to California. In fact, they sent 3 yesterday.

He informs me that an exemplar was submitted to the DOJ two weeks ago and they have yet to hear anything back.

They are in possesion of a letter from the ATF which states this is not a pistol grip per Clinton ban era definition. Apparently that definition deliniated a pistol grip as extending greater than 5/8th of an inch below the trigger guard. This Shoeless device does not. He'll ship these with a copy of that letter.

If you decide to buy...
Keep in mind that the ATF letter isn't relevant to California state law.
Also, keep in mind that status is currently undetermined by the DOJ.

TonyNorCal
03-02-2006, 10:09 AM
Robinson's M96 is bought, sold, and used in Cali with a stud extending down from the pistol grip area. Now this stud doesn't appear to extend as far down as the Shoeless grip. This stud also does that have the L shape of the Shoeless. Now, I understand they are not the same...

Well, some food for thought..


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/RandomDestiny/M9620CA20700.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/RandomDestiny/ATF20Grip_cutout-RGB_Web201.jpg

shopkeep
03-02-2006, 10:21 AM
Personally I'm going to wait to see how the DOJ responds to the exemplar. For now I'm going to stick with the SRB. There's no way they can declare the SRB to be a pistol grip without declaring the stripped reciever to have a pistol grip.

Jicko
03-02-2006, 10:32 AM
"Thumbhole stock" or not.... doesn't really matter....

Anything that fit this description is NOT OK:
"a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/pistolgrip.htm

And the "Shoeless Venture" thing do....


How the heck can the Shoeless Ventures grip be called a "thumbhole stock"? First: it's not a stock, and second: there's no hole!

Why won't they sell you a grip? It seems like they would love to sell you a $50 piece of plastic that probably cost more like 50 cents to make.

TacFan
03-02-2006, 10:39 AM
"Thumbhole stock" or not.... doesn't really matter....

Anything that fit this description is NOT OK:
"a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing."

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/pistolgrip.htm

And the "Shoeless Venture" thing do....

I have to disagree ... from the picture, it doesn't look like it goes below.

fal_762x51
03-02-2006, 10:42 AM
If you're able to rap your thumb around it (like the example), it's a thumbhole and thus illegal.

xenophobe
03-02-2006, 1:39 PM
Well,
I just called Michael at Fab-10 (good guy by the way).

Actually, no, he is not. Ask any dealer who has done regular business with him. Please.

CTT2
03-02-2006, 7:47 PM
These are two completely different entities. CDOJ and the ATF are not the same. Just because ATF says it's ok doesn't mean CDOJ will say it is ok. That letter from the ATF that say's it's not a pistol grip means jack **** too. Unless that letter was from the CDOJ. The ATF is a Federal agency what they say is a Federal standard for the Nation. States then can add more restrictions. But states can never be less restrictive than the ATF. Think about it as far as the ATF sees it haveing a 100 round CMag on your AR15 is perfectly ok because the Federal Assault Weapons ban expired. But states can chose to keep that ban in effect. That pistol grip is being sold under a false pretext. I would not trust anyone like that. Especially how much they are selling their "Cali legal recievers" for. It's ridiculous a 100-200% mark up. How hard is it to weld shut the magazine opening? Not very.

swift
03-03-2006, 8:09 PM
Robinson's M96 is bought, sold, and used in Cali with a stud extending down from the pistol grip area. Now this stud doesn't appear to extend as far down as the Shoeless grip. This stud also does that have the L shape of the Shoeless. Now, I understand they are not the same...

Well, some food for thought..


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/RandomDestiny/M9620CA20700.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v722/RandomDestiny/ATF20Grip_cutout-RGB_Web201.jpg


Where can I get one of these stubs? I'd love to get rid of the pistol grip and have a detachable magazine.

grammaton76
03-04-2006, 1:14 AM
Where can I get one of these stubs? I'd love to get rid of the pistol grip and have a detachable magazine.

Actually, they don't make stubs like that for the AR. See, the Robarms rifle is not an AR receiver - it may take AR magazines, but it's not an AR. The stub you see on the M96 is actually just what the pistol grip of the M96 is supposed to mate onto. Closest thing you'll find for the AR like that is either the Tumor stock (which some folks are attempting to resurrect) or the SRB (which one of the guys on this forum is selling; just search for SRB)

Skammy
03-04-2006, 3:44 PM
http://i1.tinypic.com/o9pv01.jpg
http://i1.tinypic.com/o9pv5x.jpg

Looks ok if you cut the back off..

taloft
03-04-2006, 5:02 PM
I would fall over dead if they ever sent a reply that just said, "It's legal but, we don't like it!"