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TomN
03-01-2006, 7:44 PM
Damn, sometimes I hate this board. Whistling along happy as a pig in..um..mud with my new legal lowers when I see something new that tickles my fancy. I swear this board is detrimental to my financial well being.

Anyhow, I would appreciate any input from those who have built one. You see, what I am trying to figure out is what part of the 1919 kits is considered the actual firearm? The part that needs to be DROS'd 4473 etc? Is it the whole kit itself? None of it? Is it the right side plate?

Anyways, I tried searching on the 1919A4 message board, but just can't seem to find the answer. Any info will be greatly appreciated!

Cheers

Tom

blacklisted
03-01-2006, 7:51 PM
The right side plate is the firearm. It can be DROSed with or without the remainder of the gun. It is legal to build a 1919A4 from a 80% RSP in California.

This is correct. You can order the 80% RSP to come directly to you, and finish it yourself.

383green
03-01-2006, 7:58 PM
This is correct. You can order the 80% RSP to come directly to you, and finish it yourself.

Let me correct your typo: You should order the 80% RSP to come directly to you, and finish it yourself. :D

saki302
03-01-2006, 8:04 PM
Let me correct your typo: You should order the 80% RSP to come directly to you, and finish it yourself. :D

Let me correct your typo- you should order it NOW :D

-Dave

TomN
03-01-2006, 8:14 PM
Thanks for the reply guys!

Okay, I just want to make sure I understand everything. As long as the RSP is 80% I do not need to go through a FFL.

Having said that, the minute I drill one hole it becomes 81%, wouldn't that constitute as me manufacturing a firearm? At that point would I have to create a serial number and engrave it in? Or is the RSP at 80% already have a serial number stamped/engraved into it? Also, once I hit that point, would I have to fill out any paperwork to be sent to Cal DoJ or BATF? I ask because, what if in the future, I wanted to sell it.

Anyhow, I guess its time to go shake the money tree and see what falls out. Thanks again guys!

Cheers

Tom

superhondaz50
03-01-2006, 9:38 PM
I almost built one of these a year ago, but was to expensive for me to complete. check out 1919a4.com for all the info you will ever need to complete your gun. Make sure that after your receiver is complete, and you internal parts have been milled and modified to fit the semi-auto side plate, and your trigger replaced with a karma metals semi one, to WELD THE SEMI PLATE TO THE TRUNION, THE TOP PLATE, AND THE LOWER PLATE!!! make sure the welds are at least 1 1/2" long and visible. If you don't weld these parts on, DOJ still considers this to be a machine gun because they say "the plate can be removed and replaced with a full auto plate and trigger pack" ya it's stupid, but I've talked to someone who had their gun confiscated because there were no welds. Just alittle advice. You don't need to have serial numbers, even though it's a good idea, and if you build the gun from an 80% it can never be sold, it is for your use only. Enjoy your build, and post pics!!:D

EBWhite
03-01-2006, 10:44 PM
If your out of state, what would keep you from selling it private party, cash and carry. The govt cannot tell you it cannot be sold...

CALI-gula
03-02-2006, 1:07 AM
I am apt to buy one in .30-06 soon. I had meant to get an M2HB but opted for some finer shooting .50BMG guns instead. However, I still want the fun of what the Browning design offers, and will be surely looking to add a 1919's mid-summer.

Look up information on homemade guns; it is well-defined and you can do it no problem. I know plenty of people that were building M2HBs with finished and self-serialized side-plates before 1/1/05.

However, building a 1919 can be like the cost and job of restoring a classic or antique car: it is fun, it is educational, time-consuming, and you will never learn more about the 1919 than by actually building one.

However, like restoring a classic or antique car, you will make a few mistakes, even if minor or correctable, and learn from those errors. You may run into an availability of parts issue, or availability of quality parts issues. You can spend money on it as you go, and not all at one time - almost like a payment plan, yet, building it yourself is sure to cost you more overall than buying one already finished by a company or someone that has built many of them, often with an experience to guarantee reliability. Time is also another consideration, and would be something that would prevent me from building one right now even if I wanted to do so.

If looking to simply run it and shoot it, buy one. If patient, and looking to educate yourself on the 1919 and like projects, build one. I am still a believer in building your own when feasible, and the pride from doing so is the best thing, and if you want something done right... etc.


.

EBWhite
03-02-2006, 1:46 AM
Most of the parts kits are about 300 bucks, they are israeli .308 converted kits....if you are lucky you will find a real ww2 usgi 30.06 kit! :-)

Alphahookups
03-02-2006, 7:00 AM
how much does these things typically cost to complete?

superhondaz50
03-02-2006, 7:52 AM
Its about $399 for a .308 or 8mm kit. roughly $100-$200 for an 80% sideplate (the more expensive has more hard work done like milling cut outs for the rear grip frame and such). If you want rivits they cost about $25 bucks. I beleive the Karma metals semi-auto trigger and sear is still $120, and is the only one available. If you have a mill, milling the internal parts is free, and if you have a good welder, welding is free. If not it costs about $250 bucks to have the internasl machined, and the new trigger and sear fitted (1919a4.com has people listed who can do this). Welding can range from $50-$100 bucks. The last parts is the finish, and thats up to you. So it's about $700-$800 bucks if you do it all yourself, and about $1000-$1200 if you have someone weld and mill for you.

Alphahookups
03-02-2006, 7:57 AM
damn, thats a little pricey for right now.:eek:

superhondaz50
03-02-2006, 8:24 AM
thanks for the clarification:) I have not looked at home building in awhile, so things have changed. And did I say DOJ I meant ATF (to much going on here in CA to remember:D )

DV8
03-02-2006, 8:50 AM
damn, thats a little pricey for right now.:eek:

Yeah, but the look on everyones face at the range when you whip it out is priceless....:D

TomN
03-02-2006, 8:53 AM
Wow, this is why I enjoy this board, in less than 12 hrs plenty of informed discussion has been posted.

Also as per the ATF home built guns can be sold, if they are sold they require the same markings as a manufacturer is required to use. You can not build with the intent to sell, but if at some later point you decide to sell it, it is legal. If you think you might want to sell it later, use a 100% plate and reduce your product liability exposure.

Good point! Of course, I am not intending on fabricating one just to sell it, but I view everything I own as an asset. So in the off chance that I do need to sell it using a 100% RSP coupled with a liability release statement will probably help deflect any liabilty from a nimrod.

However, like restoring a classic or antique car, you will make a few mistakes, even if minor or correctable, and learn from those errors. You may run into an availability of parts issue, or availability of quality parts issues......

If patient, and looking to educate yourself on the 1919 and like projects, build one. I am still a believer in building your own when feasible, and the pride from doing so is the best thing, and if you want something done right... etc.
Exactly, beyond the "wow cool" or "x-factor" (which the 1919a4 has more than enough) I want to get my hands dirty. I have been an "user" too long! I mean in principle we all understand how a firearm works, and for me, I kinda understand how the bolt locking mechanism works and gas/recoil systems work. Yet, mental visualizing it versus actual hands on experience is totally different. Kinda of like playing with erector sets vs lincoln logs.

Anyhow, thanks for the advice folks. Once I get rolling on it, I will definately create a build post. Man, with the lowers (plus whatever uppers) and now this...my poor money tree it needs some miracle grow. Does anyone know of sugar momma for me?????

Cheers

Tom

383green
03-02-2006, 8:57 AM
I think it was my posting in another thread that triggered this one.

It was a posting over in 1919a4.com that clued me in to the Harrott thing and pointed me over to this board and arfcom.

What goes around comes around... :D


Milling the internals yourself won't be free if you need to buy some additional tooling (in particular, the keyseat cutter needed to cut the sear slot). A steel cutter will work for one bolt, I'm told, but carbide cuts the tough bolt steel better, will last much longer, and cost much more of course.

There was one guy over on 1919a4.com who machined his internals with a Dremel. We're not sure about him... :p His results looked great, but I'd wager a buck that he has much more skill than most folks!

Build/buy `em while you can, folks. I predict that the antis would make fudge if they knew folks had belt-fed rifles, and that it won't be too much longer before belt-fed guns are labelled the latest cause of all of society's problems. Gang bangers with CNC mills in their garages who spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours hand-crafting semi-auto versions of belt-fed crew-served weapons make Baby Jesus cry. :rolleyes:

BigMac
03-02-2006, 10:45 AM
WELD THE SEMI PLATE TO THE TRUNION, THE TOP PLATE, AND THE LOWER PLATE!!!


Welding is no longer required.

blacklisted
03-02-2006, 10:48 AM
Welding is no longer required.

No deep welds letter:

http://www.1919a4.com/batf/NoWeld1.jpg
http://www.1919a4.com/batf/NoWeld2.jpg

50 Freak
03-02-2006, 11:23 AM
Here's a pic of my old 1919A6, didn't like it, sold it to a member off this board.

40 pound 308 semi just doesn't do it for me. But I have to admit, it is nice to look at.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/JustaBlokeAnywhere/e4c7da69.jpg

saki302
03-02-2006, 11:30 AM
Gang bangers with CNC mills in their garages who spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours hand-crafting semi-auto versions of belt-fed crew-served weapons make Baby Jesus cry. :rolleyes:

I can't think of a more impractical and gang-unfriendly weapon than a crew-served beltfed. You can'
t conceal it, you can't hide it, and you'd need mto make your own 'Techinical' truck to even think of doing a drive-by with it.

You could make a fixed-emplacement defensive position with it, but if a smart criminal had his hands on a milling and CNC machine, I can think of much worse and much easier weapons to make (AK47).

-Dave

383green
03-02-2006, 12:15 PM
I can't think of a more impractical and gang-unfriendly weapon than a crew-served beltfed. You can't conceal it, you can't hide it, and you'd need mto make your own 'Techinical' truck to even think of doing a drive-by with it.

My bad. I should have written "terrorists" instead of "gang bangers". They banned the .50BMGs because terrorists were gonna start shooting down all of the airplanes any old day now. Folks have gotten used to gang bangers and drug users/dealers, so now terrorists are the boogey man du jour. ;)

sned45
03-02-2006, 4:09 PM
http://www.mindspring.com/~sned/gun/zIMG_0236.JPG

You will not shoot it that often but they sure are fun when you do.

Start looking for those links you stored away a few years ago.

uglygun
03-02-2006, 5:35 PM
Only thing that causes me pause to build one is the need to use 10 round "belts" due to links being in a similar status to preban grandfathered magazines.

I have receipts to prove when I got a majority of my magazines so I can tell somebody to FOAD if they question the status of my mags.

However the links would be difficult to prove and I'm sure they would be much more likely to be questioned, especially if the gun proved to be a home built gun with little if any documentation.

CALI-gula
03-03-2006, 3:17 PM
I have receipts to prove when I got a majority of my magazines so I can tell somebody to FOAD if they question the status of my mags.

While I am not encouraging you to break any laws, there is a common refrain on Calguns.net that we may one day need to prove when we purchased high-capacity magazines. It is not necessary nor should it be a worry, unless you were leaving California for a shoot and returning at the border or through customs.

When I bought my high-capacity magazines years ago, there was no need to keep the receipt. I bought many at gun shows as early as 1987 and never thought I might ever see those sellers again anyway. And it was often well before the 94 Clinton Crime Bill, when there was no such thing as "High Cap" vs. 10 Round issues.

But most of all, you do not need to prove your innocence - even in fascist California - the government needs to prove you are guilty, and if they can not produce supporting evidence that you purchased the magazines or links after 1/1/2000, then that is their problem, they won't have a case. They can accuse all they want - if you can't produce a receipt for when you purchased "high capacity" magazines or links, and they can't prove you purchased them after 1/1/2000, that does NOTHING to say you are guilty.

We should not live under a false fear in expressing our 2nd Amendment rights, promoted by the Anti-2nd Amendment legislature and DOJ, a mind-set that we are guilty until proven innocent. We should not be intimidated to feel that what we are doing is illegal simply because certain groups would like to think (or wish) what we are doing can be considered illegal. This is still the United States!

I've never robbed a 7-11 with my Barrett M95, but a good number of the anti-2nd Amendment Hate Groups would like to imply that I might try to do so, or that I might be a terrorist, or a member of cult or some other hate-group with whom their anti-2nd Amendment Hate Group does not agree. I am not going to let these 2nd Amendment Hate-Groups encourage me to live on edge, think less of myself, convince me that people are out to arrest me for no reason, guilty until I prove my innocence, nor exist in fear that I am suspect of some crime, simply for enjoying shooting sports or my civil rights.

.

50 Freak
03-03-2006, 4:45 PM
If I was ever asked to produce receipts for mags I bought in the past, I would be in big freaking trouble.

I have accumulated easily over a hunred or two of various different magazines from when I started collecting in 89 to now. I have mags for guns I no longer have as well as mags for guns I plan to buy.

I don't know about the rest of you calgunners, I have a lot of gun shows under my belt and whenever I see a deal I pick it up if it interests me.

Hell I had 4 AK drums and 20 AK mags before I even bought an AK type gun back in 91. Drums were $17 bucks and mags were 10 for $30.

Not to mention the box of 50bmg ammo two years before I even bought my first 50 bmg rifle.

uglygun
03-03-2006, 8:20 PM
.....

I agree with you on all points.

But foresight for any future complications was enough for me to want to hold onto receipts of my high cap magazines in the event I had some overbearing officer acting under bad information, assumptions, or direction.

If ever stopped, I can argue all I want but that might matter little with somebody(officer) who is dead set on forcing their will on me. In that event, I have paperwork to help settle those problems and hopefully prove to be a big enough pain in the *** to the party involved that they never do it to anyone else again.

They may need to prove that I am guilty but that does not stop them in the mean time from confiscating the mags they may think are illegal, or worse arresting me for possesing mags that they think might be illegal.

As wrong as they might be and as much as much as we may disagree with such behavior, it isn't outside the realm of possibilities. Having my receipts may wind up helping me get my property out of their possession quicker or it may wind up getting me out of their custody faster.


But with reference to the links, I just wish I had enough foresight back in 1997-98 when I was buying like crazy to say "eh, what the hell I'll buy 5k links because I never know what I might want to build in the future." And that would have been a receipt I would have kept.

billybob
03-07-2006, 8:41 PM
i called JFK.inc about a year ago and they said that thay would send me a 1919 for 1100$.and it would only be shipped with a 10rd belt. anything change since then?:

snobordr
03-08-2006, 10:16 AM
But I did just order a kit from Ohio Ordnance, it should be here by end of next week with any luck.

:D