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View Full Version : AZ CCW without a permit being ignored because of immigration law


the_donald_
04-27-2010, 9:13 AM
So we know that Gov. Jan Brewer signed into law a bill making Arizona the third state allowing people to carry a concealed weapon without requiring a permit.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hqkVitwyfAJp24yVkQxi2ayn2XFwD9F4FAJ05

What I find utterly astounding how this is being overshadowed by the immigration law. We know that an armed society is a polite society, given trending data from those states that have become shall-issue & their lower crime rates.

Right-To-Carry Laws

* Right-to-carry laws require law enforcement agencies to issue handgun permits to all qualified applicants. Qualifications include criteria such as age, a clean criminal record, and completing a firearm safety course.

* In 1986, nine states had right-to-carry laws.

* As of 1998, 31 states have right-to-carry laws, and about half the U.S. population lives in these states.

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:

"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence."

* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them.

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:

Florida homicide rate
-36%
US homicide rate
-0.4%

Florida firearm homicide rate
-37%
US firearm homicide rate
+15%

FL handgun homicide rate
-41%
US handgun homicide rate
+24%

Sourced here: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

From this, we can presume that trending data from AZ will inevitably provide similar results. My curiosity is if Utah will follow suit & whether or not this can provide an environment for a domino effect by other states. From what I understand, there are laws that Utah has adopted that seem nearly "cookie-cutter" from AZ.

Thoughts?

the_donald_
04-27-2010, 9:39 AM
I certainly DO NOT expect that CA will do anything like this soon, that sure would be a pipe dream, but will be keeping an eye on this and how it effects our neighboring states.

Glock22Fan
04-27-2010, 9:40 AM
What I find utterly astounding how this is being overshadowed by the immigration law.

What I too find astounding is that the CCW law is causing so little consternation that the the immigration law is overshadowing it.

Clearly, the good people of Az are not being phased out by the thought of "rivers of blood" now almost anyone can, and might be, legally carrying a concealed weapon without a permit. (And, I might add, without the extensive training even many Calgunners think is essential).

I cannot imagine that Californians would react the same way.

the_donald_
04-27-2010, 9:47 AM
I'm also curious if it's coincidence that both of these bills went through at nearly the same time. Poly Sci 101, keep the media focused on one issue, while sneaking in another.

If there is a correlation on the timing, it's genius.

usctrojan
04-27-2010, 9:48 AM
I couldn't find anything that specified residents only. So I am good to carry in AZ as a Californian?

Glock22Fan
04-27-2010, 9:52 AM
I couldn't find anything that specified residents only. So I am good to carry in AZ as a Californian?

Yes. Anything else would be actionable under the 14th.

30rdMag
04-27-2010, 10:03 AM
I couldn't find anything that specified residents only. So I am good to carry in AZ as a Californian?

ooh thats a tough question. I'm heading back home to Arizona. I will ask a gun shop when I get home, If no one has posted on it by then.


Personaly I think it would be open to anyone that was within the borders of the state. Otherwise the bad guys would be lined up on hiway 8,10 and 40 picking off all the cars with california plates, Since they would know they are unarmed drivers. Stagecoach robberies on the rise.... lol

I still think its few months away for the law to take effect. And I think you'll have to keep an eye out for signs posted at store fronts, as I think the shop owner could retain the right to refuse service if he or she saw a firearm.
I'm wondering who will be the 1st to push that issue and how that is going to work.

ojisan
04-27-2010, 10:04 AM
I think the media being distracted by the immigration bill is good...less anti-gun hand-wringing and predictions of rivers of blood everywhere.
Also, the MSM may be intentionally leaving this one alone as it does not fit with their anti-gun agenda.

Imagine people being legally able to carry guns without written Gov't permission! What if this spread nation-wide?
:willy_nilly:

a1c
04-27-2010, 10:05 AM
I'm also curious if it's coincidence that both of these bills went through at nearly the same time. Poly Sci 101, keep the media focused on one issue, while sneaking in another.

If there is a correlation on the timing, it's genius.

Actually, that's not political science, that's PR. And indeed, well done if that was the strategy. But it doesn't look like that was the case. The CCW without permit actually did get some attention in the media.

If there was a strategy, they would have done the opposite: pass the immigration-related law first, then the CCW one. So I don't think there was calculation there. The Republicans knew the immigration law would gather all this attention.

30rdMag
04-27-2010, 10:09 AM
SF city leaders call for boycott of Arizona

SAN FRANCISCO (KGO) -- City leaders in San Francisco are calling for a boycott of the state of Arizona and Arizona-based businesses. It's a reaction to that state's tough new immigration law; a law that has re-ignited a national debate.


San Francisco supervisors are calling Arizona's new law "draconian" and "hostile." And they're hoping to punish Arizona for it by pulling the plug on any city money now being spent there, though the city attorney's office couldn't say yet how much is at stake.

"Tomorrow we will be introducing a resolution at the Board of Supervisors that calls for a citywide boycott of the state of Arizona," San Francisco Supervisor David Campos said.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/san_francisco&id=7407046

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I am sure glad that we have the extra money to spend on this crap. Because our schools are the top in the country and we have so much spare money to waste.

usctrojan
04-27-2010, 10:09 AM
ooh thats a tough question. I'm heading back home to Arizona. I will ask a gun shop when I get home, If no one has posted on it by then.


Personaly I think it would be open to anyone that was within the borders of the state. Otherwise the bad guys would be lined up on hiway 8,10 and 40 picking off all the cars with california plates, Since they would know they are unarmed drivers. Stagecoach robberies on the rise.... lol

I still think its few months away for the law to take effect. And I think you'll have to keep an eye out for signs posted at store fronts, as I think the shop owner could retain the right to refuse service if he or she saw a firearm.
I'm wondering who will be the 1st to push that issue and how that is going to work.

I think Glock 22 fan is right.... but the last thing I need is gun trouble in another state (or gun trouble period)!

Frankly I would just like to keep a loaded gun as I drive... i had a very scary incident of a road-rage driver just picking me out unprovoked on the 101 at 2am one night. Nothing happened that night; but I could have easily become a victim.

pullnshoot25
04-27-2010, 10:10 AM
I couldn't find anything that specified residents only. So I am good to carry in AZ as a Californian?

Yes. Carry on.

the_donald_
04-27-2010, 10:10 AM
Actually, that's not political science, that's PR. And indeed, well done if that was the strategy. But it doesn't look like that was the case. The CCW without permit actually did get some attention in the media.

If there was a strategy, they would have done the opposite: pass the immigration-related law first, then the CCW one. So I don't think there was calculation there. The Republicans knew the immigration law would gather all this attention.

Good point. I agree with ojisan too, the media being distracted is a good thing. To me, it seems that the sheeple are quite occupied with the immigration law and wouldn't find news on the concealed carry law unless specifically looking for it.

30rdMag
04-27-2010, 10:13 AM
I think Glock 22 fan is right.... but the last thing I need is gun trouble in another state (or gun trouble period)!

Frankly I would just like to keep a loaded gun as I drive... i had a very scary incident of a road-rage driver just picking me out unprovoked on the 101 at 2am one night. Nothing happened that night; but I could have easily become a victim.

I feel you on the road rage crap. I drive from the bay area to phx about 3 times a month. I do keep something around for safety, And since I drive most that at night, Less traffic. I feel safer knowing. Is there a risk? yeah when I cross into california. But once I get out the wastelands it gets locked up.

the_donald_
04-27-2010, 10:14 AM
SF city leaders call for boycott of Arizona

SAN FRANCISCO (KGO) -- City leaders in San Francisco are calling for a boycott of the state of Arizona and Arizona-based businesses. It's a reaction to that state's tough new immigration law; a law that has re-ignited a national debate.


San Francisco supervisors are calling Arizona's new law "draconian" and "hostile." And they're hoping to punish Arizona for it by pulling the plug on any city money now being spent there, though the city attorney's office couldn't say yet how much is at stake.

"Tomorrow we will be introducing a resolution at the Board of Supervisors that calls for a citywide boycott of the state of Arizona," San Francisco Supervisor David Campos said.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/san_francisco&id=7407046

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I am sure glad that we have the extra money to spend on this crap. Because our schools are the top in the country and we have so much spare money to waste.

Oh man, I'm sure AZ citizens are devastated to hear this...less San Franciscans in AZ. :rolleyes:

Apparently SF has money to burn on BS.

vantec08
04-27-2010, 10:23 AM
SF will boycott AZ, AZ will boycott SF. Now just who stands to lose the most? hmmmmmmmmm

thrillhouse700
04-27-2010, 10:45 AM
Oh man, I'm sure AZ citizens are devastated to hear this...less San Franciscans in AZ. :rolleyes:

Apparently SF has money to burn on BS.

This summer when I go to the river/havasu, I will go to the AZ side to get food, beer, and anything else i need just to support that great state. Good job AZ!!! Maybe someday when it gets bad enough here I will be transferring to the great state of AZ. Hopefully after I do Cali will fall into the ocean and I will have Ocean front property in Arizona.............

Glock22Fan
04-27-2010, 10:48 AM
I am also pretty sure that I saw that they will recognize all out of state permits, including non-resident, so if you have, say, a Utah permit, you should be really good to go.

I've googled this and all I can find is that "people over 21 will not require a permit."

dizzy
04-27-2010, 11:15 AM
I wonder if open carrying (or no permit CCW) in AZ would be cause for a citizen check under this new immigration law?

audiophil2
04-27-2010, 11:21 AM
I've googled this and all I can find is that "people over 21 will not require a permit."

Once the law goes into effect around August, any non-prohibited persons AZ resident or not can CCW without a permit. No one under 21 can CCW with or without a permit. The rules are so good now that even if a resident gets busted without a permit all he has to do is show proof that he had one but forgot to carry it.

It is actually more time consuming to get an AZ permit than a tax stamp here.

JDoe
04-27-2010, 1:04 PM
Just want to same some people the grief of carrying in AZ without a permit...

Arizona constitutional carry law raises many questions from gun owners...here are some answers. (http://www.examiner.com/x-25100-Phoenix-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2010m4d19-Arizona-constitutional-carry-law-raises-many-questions-from-gun-ownershere-are-some-answers)

# When does the new law take effect? The law will take effect 91 days after the close of the current legislative session. Since there is no fixed date for the session to end, the effective date of legislation can vary. Generally the session ends around the end of June and most laws will take effect around the end of September.

# Can I carry start carrying concealed now? Until the legislation actually takes effect, you would still need a valid Arizona CCW permit in order to carry concealed.

smarter
04-27-2010, 1:27 PM
I see it as a good thing too.

Uxi
04-27-2010, 2:25 PM
Can only dream we could get that here.

Sinixstar
04-27-2010, 2:34 PM
SF city leaders call for boycott of Arizona

SAN FRANCISCO (KGO) -- City leaders in San Francisco are calling for a boycott of the state of Arizona and Arizona-based businesses. It's a reaction to that state's tough new immigration law; a law that has re-ignited a national debate.


San Francisco supervisors are calling Arizona's new law "draconian" and "hostile." And they're hoping to punish Arizona for it by pulling the plug on any city money now being spent there, though the city attorney's office couldn't say yet how much is at stake.

"Tomorrow we will be introducing a resolution at the Board of Supervisors that calls for a citywide boycott of the state of Arizona," San Francisco Supervisor David Campos said.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/san_francisco&id=7407046

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I am sure glad that we have the extra money to spend on this crap. Because our schools are the top in the country and we have so much spare money to waste.

Why do I have the feeling AZ's reaction to this is going to be somewhere between "**** YEA!" and "THANK GOD!"?

Sinixstar
04-27-2010, 2:41 PM
On a more serious note - I think it's very thin ice to try to directly correlate crimerates to gunownership in a vacuum on any level. Crime rates are influenced by a multitude of factors - gun ownership potentially being one.
Crime here in NYC has fallen pretty significantly over the last decade while the gun laws have only gotten stricter and stricter. Economic and social factors are a far more influencing set of circumstances on crime then gun ownership.

What I've found is that governments that are more willing to live and let live on issues like the 2nd, are also more willing to actually take action on crime in a meaningful way. Again, using NYC as an example, the drop in crime has nothing to do with gun ownership, but rather a push by the city to actually start focusing on ya know, dealing with crime/criminals.
This is also why places like the south side of Chicago are, and always will be, hellholes. Because no matter what kind of gun laws get passed - they refuse to deal with the criminal population.

Anyways - all I'm saying is be very careful with direct correlations like that. Being a more complicated issue then it appears in these correlations - it's easy to twist stuff around by introducing selective subsets of data.

Flopper
04-27-2010, 2:45 PM
What I too find astounding is that the CCW law is causing so little consternation that the the immigration law is overshadowing it.

Clearly, the good people of Az are not being phased out by the thought of "rivers of blood" now almost anyone can, and might be, legally carrying a concealed weapon without a permit. (And, I might add, without the extensive training even many Calgunners think is essential).

I cannot imagine that Californians would react the same way.

Seriously, all you do is keep your booger hook off the bang stick until you want to shoot.

I'm under the impression that the Calgunners that think extensive training is necessary to carry have probably never carried before.

It's not that difficult people.

a1c
04-27-2010, 2:47 PM
Seriously, all you do is keep your booger hook off the bang stick until you want to shoot.

I'm under the impression that the Calgunners that think extensive training is necessary to carry have probably never carried before.

It's not that difficult people.

It's not about carrying. It's about knowing the law.

the_donald_
04-27-2010, 3:13 PM
On a more serious note - I think it's very thin ice to try to directly correlate crimerates to gunownership in a vacuum on any level. Crime rates are influenced by a multitude of factors - gun ownership potentially being one.
Crime here in NYC has fallen pretty significantly over the last decade while the gun laws have only gotten stricter and stricter. Economic and social factors are a far more influencing set of circumstances on crime then gun ownership.

What I've found is that governments that are more willing to live and let live on issues like the 2nd, are also more willing to actually take action on crime in a meaningful way. Again, using NYC as an example, the drop in crime has nothing to do with gun ownership, but rather a push by the city to actually start focusing on ya know, dealing with crime/criminals.
This is also why places like the south side of Chicago are, and always will be, hellholes. Because no matter what kind of gun laws get passed - they refuse to deal with the criminal population.

Anyways - all I'm saying is be very careful with direct correlations like that. Being a more complicated issue then it appears in these correlations - it's easy to twist stuff around by introducing selective subsets of data.

You've got some good points regarding cities actually willing to tackle crime/criminals, and certainly the socio-economic variables.

Although I would emphasize that the subject matter is not simply gun ownership, it's the concealed carry of law abiding citizens.

I have a close friend that lives in a shall issue state (yes, I'm jealous of him sometimes), & the consensus I interpret from conversing with him is that they realize that nearly ANYONE could be carrying. They think twice about their actions, even something as small as cutting someone off in traffic. They are much more polite overall.

Given this premise, of folks thinking twice about their actions, I tend to see a direct correlation between CCW for the law abiding and crime statistics overall.

Merc1138
04-27-2010, 3:18 PM
It's not about carrying. It's about knowing the law.

Exactly. Even in Arizona once it goes into effect, you can't just carry whenever and however you please.

Ijei3_pZ3wg

That's the first of a 4 part series. This radio show host is apparently an instructor, and by instructor I mean someone who teaches students the law, how it applies, and how it gets interpreted. If you're actually curious about the constitutional carry issue in Arizona, that guy can give quite a bit of insight. It's not a free for all(pretty close though).