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View Full Version : Planning to get a new 5.56 platform, ACR or MR 556?


VeNoM
04-27-2010, 6:05 AM
So I want to purchase a new and accurate 556 platform and right now I am curious what people think between the ACR vs the HK MR556?

-VeNoM

Toolbox X
04-27-2010, 6:53 AM
I think the SCAR is better than both.

daerror12
04-27-2010, 7:09 AM
You can buy the ACR now but you would need to wait if you are trying to get the HK.
Last release date that I saw posted was June for the HK. I was able to shoot the ACR and it is a nice rifle.
As for the HK I would like to try one but the price is going to be high when they fist roll out to the dealers.

1337Grenadier
04-27-2010, 7:31 AM
I would probably go with the ACR as it is $1000 less then the HK. From what I have gathered HK stated at shot show that the MR556 will sell in the $3600 range. IF you arleady have a lower you can get a LWRC piston upper for around 1500 bucks and I think it would be just as good as an HK upper. IMHO with the HK MR556 you are just paying for the name as a number of company's already produce high quality piston AR's.

xfilterx
04-27-2010, 7:35 AM
I have both the SCAR and the ACR. In my opinion, the ACR is somewhat disappointing. I waited a long time to get it and I'm not impressed on multiple levels and I'm thinking this is one of the reasons why you're seeing prices come down so much. That and supply is high. Perhaps when the caliber conversions come out, I'll be a bit more excited. The SCAR simply put is one bad *** rifle. Lighter than ACR, less felt recoil, the irons are better out-of-the-box (Troy versus Magpul), the stock out-of-the-box actually telescopes and collapses, etc. etc. etc. I can go on and on.

The MR556 release date was pushed back to September. I can tell you this, I would trade both my SCAR and my ACR to have my pre-ordered MR556 right now. Unlike the ACR the MR556 is battle tested, unlike the SCAR and ACR the MR556 will accept your current AR15 uppers or lowers, parts will be more readily available, and tons more. In terms of price I pre-ordered mine for $2450 shipped. That's cheaper than the SCAR, slightly more than what the ACR is currently going for, and about the same price as a "high-end" AR15 (Noveske, Barrett, LWRC, LMT, etc.). Just my two pennies.

evidens83
04-27-2010, 7:37 AM
SCAR ftw!

xfilterx
04-27-2010, 7:46 AM
I would probably go with the ACR as it is $1000 less then the HK.

Is that so? You have actual numbers to back this up? Current dealer cost of the ACR is $1900. Dealer cost for the MR556 is $2150. That's only a $250 difference.

From what I have gathered HK stated at shot show that the MR556 will sell in the $3600 range.


Incorrect. I paid $2450 to preorder mine as well a few dozen other folks who preordered them from numerous vendors who all had advertised prices in the same range. Can the cost go up once the rifle ships? Perhaps but not to $3600. That's ludicrous.

IF you arleady have a lower you can get a LWRC piston upper for around 1500 bucks and I think it would be just as good as an HK upper.


Yeah and last time I checked LWRC uppers were field tested and battle proven. :rolleyes:


IMHO with the HK MR556 you are just paying for the name as a number of company's already produce high quality piston AR's.

A number of companies already produce high quality piston ARs. Gee, I wonder where they got the idea? The selling point is you'd be buying a quality AR from a world-wide company that produces products that are field proven and battle tested by military's, special ops units, police departments, etc. This is a company that took the notoriously unreliable British SA80 and made it such that the British are still using it to date. This a company that produced the MP5 for crying out loud, one of the most reliable and iconic SMG's in history. First polymer pistol? HK.

And consider this, a quote from Larry Vickers (consultant/designer on the 416 project) (also consider this was written 4 years ago when the piston-driven system was just picking up steam):

I have learned that all the US Military’s top special operations units in JSOC will be fielding the HK416 as their primary carbine. All the key Units in JSOC chose the HK416 in preference to the current M4 and the FN SCAR Light which is still in development for the rest of SOCOM. It is very satisfying to me that units that could field any carbine they want choose the HK416. This tells me we have done our job, and have done it well.

MR556 FTW

An excellent unbiased article on the HK416 on Army Times: http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/atCarbine070219/

1337Grenadier
04-27-2010, 9:07 AM
Is that so? You have actual numbers to back this up? Current dealer cost of the ACR is $1900. Dealer cost for the MR556 is $2150. That's only a $250 difference.

Incorrect. I paid $2450 to preorder mine as well a few dozen other folks who preordered them from numerous vendors who all had advertised prices in the same range. Can the cost go up once the rifle ships? Perhaps but not to $3600.

I was going off the last price I had heard you are correct. I would like to know who is selling ACR's for $1900?



Yeah and last time I checked LWRC uppers were field tested and battle proven. :rolleyes:

Just because the military uses something does not make it the be all end all. The MK23 is "Field tested and battle Proven" and you don't see many people touting how great that gun is.



A number of companies already produce high quality piston ARs. Gee, I wonder where they got the idea? The selling point is you'd be buying a quality AR from a world-wide company that produces products that are field proven and battle tested by military's, special ops units, police departments, etc. This is a company that took the notoriously unreliable British SA80 and made it such that the British are still using it to date. This a company that produced the MP5 for crying out loud, one of the most reliable and iconic SMG's in history.

And consider this, a quote from Larry Vickers (consultant/designer on the 416 project) (also consider this was written 4 years ago when the piston-driven system was just picking up steam):

HK is not the first to make a piston AR it was Taiwan with the T65 and if you want to get technical it was Eugene Stoner himself with the AR-18 (where HK got the idea for the G36) which is essentially a piston AR. HK has great marketing but when logic is applied you will find you can get guns of equal quality for far cheaper from other company's. Not everything HK touches is gold look at the XM-8 that was a total disaster. I think HK is over priced and over hyped.

richzmn
04-27-2010, 9:24 AM
I would buy an ACR right now, I'm very happy with mine. Then get the HK in October when prices level off, if they hold to the September delivery. These are probably the two best rifles to purchase. I don't think you can go wrong with either one.

dchang0
04-27-2010, 9:32 AM
Just because the military uses something does not make it the be all end all.

Yup, and considering how often politics and budgetary constraints override the demands of combat and preferences of the troops, it doesn't mean much to say the military uses it so it must be good...

xfilterx
04-27-2010, 9:42 AM
I was going off the last price I had heard you are correct. I would like to know who is selling ACR's for $1900?

If you read my post carefully, I said dealer price is $1900. Of course MSRP is higher and what folks are actually selling them for is slightly higher. I've seen ACR's as low as $2100 in free states.

Just because the military uses something does not make it the be all end all. The MK23 is "Field tested and battle Proven" and you don't see many people touting how great that gun is.

The MK23 was used for a decade. It was purpose built, served its users well, and has now been replaced. You don't see many people touting how great the gun is? Maybe not in the circles you run in but in the circles I run in you do.

HK is not the first to make a piston AR it was Taiwan with the T65 and if you want to get technical it was Eugene Stoner himself with the AR-18 (where HK got the idea for the G36) which is essentially a piston AR.

Nowhere in my post did I say or insinuate that HK invented the gas piston system. Can we agree however that HK's gas piston system was the first widely adopted in any firearm with the SA80 and G36?

HK has great marketing but when logic is applied you will find you can get guns of equal quality for far cheaper from other company's.

I disagree with equal quality. There are companies that devote time and money to research and development and there are those that "borrow" the R&D of other companies and merely "enhance" their designs to avoid patent infringement. HK is a company that has produced innovative weapon systems for decades...there not a mom and pop shop with 22 year old "CEO's" that market their designs to civi mall ninjas....which in my opinion is what you get from company's like Spike's and others who I won't mention to avoid being flamed for blasphemy.

Not everything HK touches is gold look at the XM-8 that was a total disaster. I think HK is over priced and over hyped.

A total disaster? You've been hanging out at AR15.com for too long my friend. HK produced a weapon system according to government specs. The Army actively pushed for further testing and in fact was prepared to order several thousand more rifles to further their testing of the weapon system. Funding was denied. Who denied the funding? Congress. The disaster was in the politics (delays, scope creep, politics, etc) not in the design or perceived failure. In the end the project was canceled...not because the weapon system was a failure but because the Army had legislated obligations to use US-based manufacturers before anyone else and besides, this wasn't going over well with the crybabies over at Colt considering Colt had an agreement with the Army to be involved with any small arms projects the Army was considering. The absolute only issues with the rifle that still needed to be refined were a reduction in weight, longer battery life in the optics, barrel life, and a more robust heat shield to sustain greater temperatures in extreme circumstances. Hardly a failure if you ask me. Certainly these hurdles could have been overcome had the red tape and government bureaucracy not gotten in the way.

And yet again you criticize a company that produces a weapon system relying on kinetic energy as over hyped. Whatever man. Had this been a successful project and LWRC, Noveske, and LMT started producing a similar system I'm sure the argument would have been yeah, but the LWRC is $1000 less! :rolleyes:

stormy_clothing
04-27-2010, 1:42 PM
All I can say is for 1800 I was able to build a superior rifle to either.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=210206

Of the 30 people or so who have shot any of the 4 now that I've owned, every single one either liked it or in most cases wanted to buy one.

Common remarks were how light it felt, how accurate even at 300 yards it was with BUIS, how low recoil there was and how ergonomic my current one is.

I could easily afford to buy either or both of those other rifle and they so far have not proven there worth in shooting them.

If CMMG made this rifle in 308 would not have bought one from POF set up exactly the same way.

xfilterx
04-27-2010, 1:48 PM
All I can say is for 1800 I was able to build a superior rifle to either.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=210206

Of the 30 people or so who have shot any of the 4 now that I've owned, every single one either liked it or in most cases wanted to buy one.

Common remarks were how light it felt, how accurate even at 300 yards it was with BUIS, how low recoil there was and how ergonomic my current one is.

I could easily afford to buy either or both of those other rifle and they so far have not proven there worth in shooting them.

If CMMG made this rifle in 308 would not have bought one from POF set up exactly the same way.

Wow 30 people you say? And it's superior to a SCAR, ACR, or MR556? I'm sure the gubment will be lining up to mass order from your manufacturing facilities here soon. BTW, does OSHA know you walk around barefoot in your production facility? Just curious. :rolleyes:

-hanko
04-27-2010, 3:03 PM
HK is a company that has produced innovative weapon systems for decades...there not a mom and pop shop with 22 year old "CEO's" that market their designs to civi mall ninjas....which in my opinion is what you get from company's like Spike's and others who I won't mention to avoid being flamed for blasphemy.
That quote made my day:).

The second vendor you mentioned did their level best to stick it to (as well as up) customers in the panic ensuing before and following the Anointed One's election last year.

How soon we forget.

-hanko

VeNoM
04-27-2010, 3:06 PM
Well I think with knowing that the MR556 I can get for under 3000 I will probably try my best to pre-order it.

If anyone knows a good place to pre-order the MR556 Please let me know.

Quiet
04-27-2010, 3:28 PM
FN SCAR-16S

MSRP for H&K MR556 = $2995.00
MSRP for Bushmaster ACR = $2685.00

tiger222
04-27-2010, 3:31 PM
The HK XM8 / HK G36 (according to the dust tests) are the most reliable rifles made to date. The HK 416 was 3rd, but only due to one bad mag causing 90% of the failures.

Of the two mentioned, I'd vote the MR223. However it's still vaporware, so by default the ACR wins. However, I'd vote with toolbox and steer you towards the SCAR, though if you want a tough as nails 223 military gas piston gun that uses AR mags? Get a Daewoo DR200, or an early SIG556 with Swiss internals.

stormy_clothing
04-27-2010, 3:40 PM
Wow 30 people you say? And it's superior to a SCAR, ACR, or MR556? I'm sure the gubment will be lining up to mass order from your manufacturing facilities here soon. BTW, does OSHA know you walk around barefoot in your production facility? Just curious. :rolleyes:

That's your response, my bare feet in a picture...really. Where did I say I produced rifles anyway.....whats the term, oh yeah reading comprehension owns you.

As far as your other comments when did the government line up to buy any of those rifles either ?

FNH has a contract with us to supply small arms and had a rifle already produced that filled certain requirements so they delivered it. There are better rifles than the SCAR available like the 416 which CMMG pretty much made a copy of no doubt but one 1/3 the price.

The ACR unless you know different has no one lined up either does the 556 which is a civilian rifle not a military one, read "a civilian version of the 416'

Talk is cheap, I will gladly hand over my rifle to you at a range day and where your done please attempt to justify 6-1200 dollars additional cost if you can. But I'll tell you that I've shot the ACR and SCAR and XCR and a 416 upper before building this. All could have been had for not alot more money excpet for the HK which is just flat out BS pricing.

xfilterx
04-27-2010, 3:54 PM
Talk is cheap, I will gladly hand over my rifle to you at a range day and where your done please attempt to justify 6-1200 dollars additional cost if you can. But I'll tell you that I've shot the ACR and SCAR and XCR and a 416 upper before building this. All could have been had for not alot more money excpet for the HK which is just flat out BS pricing.

It's all relative to what you can afford. I'm sure you built a fine rifle that is plenty reliable for shooting paper targets at a controlled range. I'll stick to the toys I like.

Next range day I'll take you up on your offer and assuming there are no issues with your rifle after a few hundred rounds, I'll buy you a case...your choice. :cheers2:

calishine
04-27-2010, 6:53 PM
xfilterx . . . Being the HK aficionado you are, can you recommend a a vendor to preorder my 556 from?

BTW, what are your thoughts on the mr762? Any word on price and possible availability?? Thanks in advance!!

AlliedArmory
04-27-2010, 6:56 PM
I can't bring myself to spend that much for either rifle. Both nice but over priced. I do like the SCAR though.

Maybe I would think differently if I could afford any of those, but until then my AR will have to do :)

BitterOldMan
04-27-2010, 7:12 PM
On the HKPRO website, there are several FFLs willing to ship the MR556 to California. "$2450.00 + $25.00 shipping for HKPRO members." xfilterx convinced Gary of Blue Beret Firearms to ship to California. Thanks xfilterx.

http://hkpro.com/forum/showthread.php?119013-HK-MR556-Group-Buy-Pre-Order-%28GA%29

AviatorDave, one of the moderators, is also willing to ship to California.

At HKProfest 2008, I shot both XM8 and HK416; both are great weapons.

1337Grenadier
04-27-2010, 7:20 PM
HK is a company that has produced innovative weapon systems for decades

HK's flagship delayed blowback roller lock system was actually designed under Nazi Germany and not by HK so you can't really credit them for that. The G36 is essentially a plastic AR-18 so again I don't see much innovation there either. I don't hate HK products and I don't think they are crap, hell I own an HK however I don't buy in to the hype. HK weapons have been given mythical attributes due to Hollywood, Video games, Gun store commando's, and Airsofter's who read to many Tom Clancy novels. HK uses the hype as an excuse to jack up prices if you want proof look at the HK AR magazine which retails for around 50 bucks...What in hell can this mag do over a 15-20 dollar lancer or p-mag? I know! It says HK on it thats what it does.

willm952
04-27-2010, 7:37 PM
All I can say is for 1800 I was able to build a superior rifle to either.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=210206

Of the 30 people or so who have shot any of the 4 now that I've owned, every single one either liked it or in most cases wanted to buy one.

Common remarks were how light it felt, how accurate even at 300 yards it was with BUIS, how low recoil there was and how ergonomic my current one is.

I could easily afford to buy either or both of those other rifle and they so far have not proven there worth in shooting them.

If CMMG made this rifle in 308 would not have bought one from POF set up exactly the same way.

Funny you should mention cmmg. I bought what must have been one their early m4lep gas piston models with the pinned gas block and bullet button. Wow did that drag the class down for ammo breaks.

Actually ran it through carbine course with Tigerswan this month. Great real-world weapons handling.

1st day we ran our carbines hard. 600 rounds that day. the gas block was hot.
the gas piston system itself worked flawlessly. the only issues I had were with the mag catch letting the magazin ride too far up into the bolt carrier and getting stuck several times and the charging handle. swear have to get a bcm or lmt handle, that thing is rough.

I think the only issue with it is the lower. So I'll be changing that out pronto to LMT.

but the gas block is different from the 416, I'm assuming to avoid a lawsuit.
the hk gas block is very nicely made and actually tucks into the the rail. you can also use the bolt to unscrew the rail screws which you have to take off to get to the gas piston system.

the bolt carrier looks identical from cmmg to hk. skis & pads. but the hk looks likes milled cleaner.

there's a good review here between hk and lmt
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26421

smglee is a super nice cool guy. he was in the Tigerswan class and helped a lot with the class setup.

would be interested in getting the mr556 or the 7.62 version if I could shoot it first to see if I like the feel of the 7.62. has anyone ever shot the 7.62 version?
just wondering about the overall feel including recoil. thanks.

also, the hk mags are steel 1 lb each. seals hate them, just ask Tigerswan, along with pmags. man don't get Brian Searcy started on pmags.

Lon Moer
04-27-2010, 8:44 PM
So I want to purchase a new and accurate 556 platform and right now I am curious what people think between the ACR vs the HK MR556?

-VeNoM

The XCR is what you seek.

VeNoM
04-27-2010, 11:55 PM
Has any of you taken a look at the P415 rifle? has the look of the 416 for the most part, fluted barrel even and I have found it for as cheap as 1800. But a buddy of mine is also trying to convince me to build my own and just buy their upper which we have found for something like 1300 dollars.

Has anyone ever seen or shot this rifle, the P415?

http://www.pof-usa.com/p415/p415.htm

sd1023x
04-28-2010, 7:18 AM
The XCR is what you seek.

Robarms vs HK....HK by a mile

Robarms vs Cerebus.....Cerebus by .75 miles.

davy
04-28-2010, 11:41 AM
...also, the hk mags are steel 1 lb each. seals hate them, just ask Tigerswan, along with pmags. man don't get Brian Searcy started on pmags.
What's wrong with pmags? This is the first time I've heard anybody with a potential complaint toward them.

thmpr
04-28-2010, 11:42 AM
LMT or SCAR...

willm952
04-28-2010, 1:32 PM
Has any of you taken a look at the P415 rifle? has the look of the 416 for the most part, fluted barrel even and I have found it for as cheap as 1800. But a buddy of mine is also trying to convince me to build my own and just buy their upper which we have found for something like 1300 dollars.

Has anyone ever seen or shot this rifle, the P415?

http://www.pof-usa.com/p415/p415.htm

know someone who bought a p416 and loves it. soft shooting, reliable.
i do like their rails. haven't shot it myself.

their new lowers come with ambi bolt catch & mag release along with winter trigger guard built in.
but pof doesn't sell to prk residents. you'd have to get it from a dealer in prk or one willing to ship prk legal.

willm952
04-28-2010, 1:38 PM
What's wrong with pmags? This is the first time I've heard anybody with a potential complaint toward them.

What Brian was saying that every carbine class he teaches there's someone with pmags having problems.

For me, the notch that the mag catch locks into actually seared off some the notch from the pmag and inserted it into the bolt carrier bottom also allowing the mag to ride past the mag catch and create a very bad lockup.

It was so bad that if I tried to pull the charging handle, I would have broken it.
Kyle was able to get it to release by banging the end of the m4 stock on the ground.

Someone next to me was shooting pmags without any problems.
Maybe it was the tan color. Kyle was saying the tan color injected into the mag actually weakened the plastic.

But my lowers probably had some part in the mag failures too. Will definitely be getting the LMT complete lower with their internals.

1lb hk mags. wow! try 6 of them loaded.

bomb_on_bus
04-28-2010, 3:04 PM
know someone who bought a p416 and loves it. soft shooting, reliable.
i do like their rails. haven't shot it myself.

their new lowers come with ambi bolt catch & mag release along with winter trigger guard built in.
but pof doesn't sell to prk residents. you'd have to get it from a dealer in prk or one willing to ship prk legal.

class3 weapons will be able to help you out as far as getting a POF sent to you. they are also a advertising vendor as well

dchang0
04-28-2010, 4:43 PM
look at the HK AR magazine which retails for around 50 bucks...What in hell can this mag do over a 15-20 dollar lancer or p-mag? I know! It says HK on it thats what it does.

HK's metal AR mags are actually specially designed. Their 30rnd model is curved, not bent like regular USGI mags. The curved design allows the rounds to stack neatly inside, improving feeding dramatically. But to make these mags, they have to have their own tooling. Thus, they can't take advantage of the economies of scale that the other metal AR mag manufacturers can.

Of course, is this feature really worth $50? Not to me it isn't, when Lancer's 30rnd mags are also curved in the same way and cost only $18.

Ruiner
04-28-2010, 5:31 PM
What's wrong with pmags? This is the first time I've heard anybody with a potential complaint toward them.

Someone will always have issues with some equipment. Pmags have been used extensively since they were introduced and I've only heard of a few people that had problems with it. Most of the time its due to an issue with the gun itself and not the mag. If you talk to enough people/read enough you'll find complaints about everything. There are people that hate the HK mags too. :)

Teeznutz
04-28-2010, 6:35 PM
Don't waste ur $ on the acr. It's front heavy, and will be disappointed. Don't believe the hype!!!

xfilterx
04-28-2010, 9:35 PM
Don't waste ur $ on the acr. It's front heavy, and will be disappointed. Don't believe the hype!!!

+1

Not overly impressed by mine.