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b.faust
04-27-2010, 12:44 AM
I was doing some research tonight for a project and ran across this interesting article:

The Big M4 Myth: “Fouling caused by the direct impingement gas system makes the M4 Carbine unreliable.” (http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/)

Long article, but here's a little snip:

This article is not a direct impingement vs. piston driven operating system debate and does not discuss piston guns at all. It is specifically dealing with a 14.5”AR-15 upper receiver with .062” gas port that’s as close to a Mil-Spec M4 upper as I could find on the civilian market.
All I have ever asked and required of myself (and others) as a professional is that everything I say or write must be capable of being substantiated. I am asking some questions and giving my opinions, observations, and conclusions based on my own experience and testing.


I found it to be an interesting read (and a good way to procrastinate from some work)

Enjoy.
B.

gorblimey
04-27-2010, 2:42 AM
Thanks for the link. I've read this author's earlier articles, and this latest update is interesting food for thought.

fastkevin
04-27-2010, 3:04 AM
As one of the millions that carried an M-16/M-4, I wholeheartedly disagree with 'fouling' not being a cause of jams. Because of it, I(and everybody I knew) became quite the expert doing 'S.P.O.R.T.S'. It's also funny that it's 50 freaking years since the weapon was first introduced.

Okami
04-27-2010, 6:42 AM
Great article, thanks!

sd1023x
04-27-2010, 6:52 AM
I was doing some research tonight for a project and ran across this interesting article:

The Big M4 Myth: “Fouling caused by the direct impingement gas system makes the M4 Carbine unreliable.” (http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/)

Long article, but here's a little snip:




I found it to be an interesting read (and a good way to procrastinate from some work)

Enjoy.
B.

Nice....you want to really waste some time? Alright...I'll play some devils advocate.

1. "What I eventually realized was that when magazine issues were removed, along with broken parts, about 80% of the malfunctions had been accounted for."

-What is a bad magazine in an AR/m16/m4 (AR)? If it works in one AR and doesn't work in another, is that a bad magazine, cuz I've seen that alot? I got some old orlites that don't even seat in half the AR's I've tried them in, but have a flawless track record when used in a Sig556 and SCAR. I would like to say AR's are a little to finicky with magazines, thoughts?

PIRATE14
04-27-2010, 10:34 AM
Nice....you want to really waste some time? Alright...I'll play some devils advocate.

1. "What I eventually realized was that when magazine issues were removed, along with broken parts, about 80% of the malfunctions had been accounted for."

-What is a bad magazine in an AR/m16/m4 (AR)? If it works in one AR and doesn't work in another, is that a bad magazine, cuz I've seen that alot? I got some old orlites that don't even seat in half the AR's I've tried them in, but have a flawless track record when used in a Sig556 and SCAR. I would like to say AR's are a little to finicky with magazines, thoughts?

Orlites have always had a bad track record in ARs....

STD GI mags should always run in different guns.....never found them to be mag picky....

dwa
04-27-2010, 10:51 AM
alot of mags will dead line but you wont be able to visibly tell, the military rarely throws things away so those mags stay in the mix.

dwa
04-27-2010, 10:53 AM
As one of the millions that carried an M-16/M-4, I wholeheartedly disagree with 'fouling' not being a cause of jams. Because of it, I(and everybody I knew) became quite the expert doing 'S.P.O.R.T.S'. It's also funny that it's 50 freaking years since the weapon was first introduced.

as one of those ill go ahead and disagree with you, you should have learned SPORTS because you were a professional. what had probably happened was poorly lubricated weapons or some other training issue. 50 years just means nothing better has come out in 50 years.

4thSBCT
04-27-2010, 11:18 AM
His analysis isn't very in depth. A new spring?.......thats it?.......LOLRUS

Hoop
04-27-2010, 11:39 AM
No, it just means that nothing better has made it through the Army procurement bureaucracy.

They have to have the money to replace them all as well. If direct impingement AR's were actually as bad as the internet claims they are they would've been replaced, bureaucracy or not, a long time ago.

I still don't get why they didn't just copy the AK like everyone else though.

Spaceghost
04-27-2010, 11:41 AM
I remember doing the rifle range qual years ago and my weapon would always malfunction on the second mag. Then I realized, we used no lube at all! Seriously, running an AR with no lube was retarded. I still remember one D.I. swearing and throwing the mag I was using in the woods behind the range.

Hoop
04-27-2010, 11:45 AM
I remember doing the rifle range qual years ago and my weapon would always malfunction on the second mag. Then I realized, we used no lube at all! Seriously, running an AR with no lube was retarded. I still remember one D.I. swearing and throwing the mag I was using in the woods behind the range.

The first AR I ever built I shot for months without lubing the bolt and it functioned fine. I didn't even know I was supposed to lube it until a buddy gave me a can of CLP.

dwa
04-27-2010, 11:53 AM
No, it just means that nothing better has made it through the Army procurement bureaucracy.

show me whats better

dwa
04-27-2010, 11:55 AM
They have to have the money to replace them all as well. If direct impingement AR's were actually as bad as the internet claims they are they would've been replaced, bureaucracy or not, a long time ago.

I still don't get why they didn't just copy the AK like everyone else though.

who copied the ak ussr client states? if you talking about a long stroke piston the ak wasnt the first.

Merc1138
04-27-2010, 12:02 PM
No, it just means that nothing better has made it through the Army procurement bureaucracy.

You're right, nothing better has made it through the government bureaucracy since they adopted the AR 50 years ago, however they've been demonstrated many many firearms over the years from a multitude of vendors. Am I saying that it means the bureaucracy determined that everything else was bad? No, but they haven't been shown anything that's been better.

4thSBCT
04-27-2010, 12:04 PM
You're right, nothing better has made it through the government bureaucracy since they adopted the AR 50 years ago, however they've been demonstrated many many firearms over the years from a multitude of vendors. Am I saying that it means the bureaucracy determined that everything else was bad? No, but they haven't been shown anything that's been better.

bull crap, They've been shown better they just dont think a soldiers life is worth the extra $$$ for the better equipment. take dragon skin body armor.....PROVEN superior but cost more. so no go.

J_Rock
04-27-2010, 12:26 PM
bull crap, They've been shown better they just dont think a soldiers life is worth the extra $$$ for the better equipment. take dragon skin body armor.....PROVEN superior but cost more. so no go.

Dragon skin is a really bad example considering how it failed testing b/c the adhesive failed in high temps and oil immersion, was heavier than the current interceptor and not as flexible as it was claimed to be. Do a search on lightfighter.net if you want more info on how much it sucks. Just because a product shows up on Future Weapons and Mack does his tactical whispering telling use how awesome something is doesnt mean its actually good.

His analysis isn't very in depth. A new spring?.......thats it?.......LOLRUS

The guy who wrote the article, Mike Pannone is a tier 1 operator. Forgive me if I take his word over yours.

About the Author:
Mike Pannone is a former operational member of U.S. Marine Reconnaissance, U.S. Army Special Forces, and specially selected elements of the Joint Special Operations Command. He has participated in stabilization, combat, and high risk protection operations in support of U.S. policies throughout the world as both an active duty military member and a defense contractor. He was the head marksmanship instructor beginning in March of 2002 at the Federal Air Marshal School in Atlantic City and then took a full time position as the head marksmanship and tactics instructor at the Seattle Field Office of the same agency. Some of his qualifications aside from military and sport shooting (IPSC) experience are:
- Glock Certified Armorer
- Federal Firearms Instructor (qualified as Distinguished Weapons Expert)
- Federal Air Marshal Instructor Course (High Shooter)
- NRA certified Law Enforcement Pistol, Shotgun and Patrol Rifle Instructor

He currently instructs U.S. military, law enforcement, and private citizens throughout the country. He can be contacted via Blackheart International, LLC.

stormy_clothing
04-27-2010, 12:27 PM
No article is going to tell me that my old colt commando functioned flawlessly thats bs, m4 feed ramps, gas pistons, better mags and full auto bolts and barrels makes high volume shooting reliable.

My CMMG m4LEP with PMAG and magpul sights was 1100.

I have had 0 FTF's, double feeds, fouling issues, nothing with 2 seperate rifles.

If I go out shooting for a weekend and forget ammo or feel like popping off 300 wolf hp rounds which are so dirty I have absolutely no issue.

Shooting in the desert, shooting in the rain - no issue ever once at all.

Ever once in awhile I will get a light strike on surplus ammo but I could swap out the hammer spring for a +15% wolf and it will never happen again.

Yeah I clean them religiously but in this day and age you can buy a rifle that it's not an issue so why not ?

Personally after many years of experience with DI from Ar's to Desert Eagles ect I will never buy another non piston ar.

I just forked out 2800 for a new pof 308 to back up that statement when I could have gotten something similar with DI for 2-300 less.

4thSBCT
04-27-2010, 12:29 PM
Dragon skin is a really bad example considering how it failed testing b/c the adhesive failed in high temps and oil immersion, was heavier than the current interceptor and not as flexible as it was claimed to be. Do a search on lightfighter.net

the point being the government hasn't been known as having the best interests of the soldiers in mind when acquiring equipment. Rather they focus on the cheapest stuff that has only "acceptable" performance. I don't think anyones gunna argue that.

killshot44
04-27-2010, 12:30 PM
What his tests and article show, in a nutshell, is that he took several short-barrelled M4s, disassembled 'em, wiped 'em bone dry and ran 'em till failure. Routinely got to about 2,500 rounds before malfunction.

So? AR's need a bit of lubrication. Nothing big there.

And: He thinks stronger springs in the action/buffer and extractor will further extend time before malfunction if run dry.

Not a bad read though.

stormy_clothing
04-27-2010, 12:32 PM
the point being the government hasn't been known as having the best interests of the soldiers in mind when acquiring equipment. Rather they focus on the cheapest stuff that has only "acceptable" performance. I don't think anyones gunna argue that.

Look at military spending and you'll see they are not focused on saving money, the procurement process for small arms is fuxored but only because it's a system with favors and bias.

4thSBCT
04-27-2010, 12:35 PM
The guy who wrote the article, Mike Pannone is a tier 1 operator. Forgive me if I take his word over yours.

About the Author:
Mike Pannone is a former operational member of U.S. Marine Reconnaissance, U.S. Army Special Forces, and specially selected elements of the Joint Special Operations Command. He has participated in stabilization, combat, and high risk protection operations in support of U.S. policies throughout the world as both an active duty military member and a defense contractor. He was the head marksmanship instructor beginning in March of 2002 at the Federal Air Marshal School in Atlantic City and then took a full time position as the head marksmanship and tactics instructor at the Seattle Field Office of the same agency. Some of his qualifications aside from military and sport shooting (IPSC) experience are:
- Glock Certified Armorer
- Federal Firearms Instructor (qualified as Distinguished Weapons Expert)
- Federal Air Marshal Instructor Course (High Shooter)
- NRA certified Law Enforcement Pistol, Shotgun and Patrol Rifle Instructor

He currently instructs U.S. military, law enforcement, and private citizens throughout the country. He can be contacted via Blackheart International, LLC.

I never claimed to be more qualified than the author and also what is my "word" jrock? hmmm? The only thing I said is that his article is not very in depth... I think your reading too much into my statement and taking my critique as a personal attack on your favorite weapon which you have done in previous threads....and I suspect Mike Pannone shares the same butt hurt mentalilty given the reason for making such an article...he...like you....can't handle the criticism of their precious ar15

818gtiguy
04-27-2010, 12:38 PM
This guys knows his stuff. I would for sure take his word. He is a real operator, not one of these mall ninjas.

ar15barrels
04-27-2010, 12:50 PM
No article is going to tell me that my old colt commando functioned flawlessly thats bs

The colt commando has a superior gas system to the M4 carbine due to the shorter barrel having less dwell time.

PoofNoEyebrows
04-27-2010, 12:51 PM
All I know is from personal experience. My primary issue in the Marines was an old A2 that was so abused when it was clean it was silver. if ti wasn't silver it was bright orange and I rarely had it jam. If it did it was usually because I did not take the proper steps to keep the three cups of dirt out of the upper receiver. As far as bad magazines they are easy to spot, rounds usually fall loose off the stack or the follower gets stucks. All I know for sure was that fouling was never an issue and it did what it was suppose to do even when I didn't.

b.faust
04-27-2010, 12:52 PM
Man people, I said it was INTERESTING, I didn't say it was bible.
;)

That said, I always learn a bit more from the piston vs DI discussions around here.
(Mostly that I want both...)

B.

Merc1138
04-27-2010, 2:03 PM
Just because a product shows up on Future Weapons and Mack does his tactical whispering telling use how awesome something is doesnt mean its actually good.


Aww, but that's how I determine how awesome things are ;)

Timmay
04-27-2010, 3:23 PM
As one of the millions that carried an M-16/M-4, I wholeheartedly disagree with 'fouling' not being a cause of jams. Because of it, I(and everybody I knew) became quite the expert doing 'S.P.O.R.T.S'. It's also funny that it's 50 freaking years since the weapon was first introduced.

No offense but were you in the Army?