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View Full Version : Will online ammo sales to California halt after July 2010??


firearmenthusiast
04-26-2010, 1:34 AM
I read on wikipedia that:

"On October 11, 2009, California enacted AB 962, adding new requirements for the sale of ammunition. Effective July 2010, ammunition sales must take place in person, and dealers must keep records of ammunition sales for at least five years. Effective February 2011, buyers of ammunition must provide a thumbprint and state identification."

So does this mean after July 2010 I cannot buy ANY ammo online? I thought that bill only said AFTER Feb 2011 can you not buy ammo online!

Has anyone started to stockpile??

Quiet
04-26-2010, 2:06 AM
Wikipedia is not a viable source for 100% truthful data.

Starting 02-01-2011, handgun ammunition is limited to face-to-face transactions [PC 12318(a)].
So, no online/mail order sales of handgun ammunition. You can still do online/mail order sales of rifle and shotgun ammunition.


Penal Code 12318
(a) Commencing February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer of ownership of handgun ammunition may only occur in a face-to-face
transaction with the deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide evidence of identity from the purchaser or other transferee. A
violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
(b) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Bona fide evidence of identity" means a document issued by a federal, state, county, or municipal government, or subdivision or
agency thereof, including, but not limited to, a motor vehicle operator's license, state identification card, identification card issued to a member of the Armed Forces, or other form of identification that bears the name, date of birth, description, and picture of the person.
(2) "Handgun ammunition" means handgun ammunition as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12323, but excluding ammunition designed and intended to be used in an "antique firearm" as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code. Handgun ammunition does not include blanks.
(3) "Handgun ammunition vendor" has the same meaning as set forth in Section 12060.
(c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to or affect the deliveries, transfers, or sales of, handgun ammunition to any of the following:
(1) Authorized law enforcement representatives of cities, counties, cities and counties, or state and federal governments for
exclusive use by those government agencies if, prior to the delivery, transfer, or sale of the handgun ammunition, written authorization from the head of the agency employing the purchaser or transferee, is obtained identifying the employee as an individual authorized to conduct the transaction, and authorizing the transaction for the exclusive use of the agency employing the individual.
(2) Sworn peace officers, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who are authorized to carry a
firearm in the course and scope of their duties.
(3) Importers and manufacturers of handgun ammunition or firearms licensed to engage in business pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) Persons who are on the centralized list maintained by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12083.
(5) Persons whose licensed premises are outside this state who are licensed as dealers or collectors of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(6) Persons licensed as collectors of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto whose licensed premises are within this state who has a current certificate of
eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071.
(7) A handgun ammunition vendor.
(8) A consultant-evaluator, as defined in subdivision (s) of Section 12001.

Penal Code 12323
As used in this chapter, the following definitions shall apply:
(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

andalusi
04-26-2010, 2:46 AM
I read on wikipedia that:

"On October 11, 2009, California enacted AB 962, adding new requirements for the sale of ammunition. Effective July 2010, ammunition sales must take place in person, and dealers must keep records of ammunition sales for at least five years. Effective February 2011, buyers of ammunition must provide a thumbprint and state identification."

So does this mean after July 2010 I cannot buy ANY ammo online? I thought that bill only said AFTER Feb 2011 can you not buy ammo online!

Has anyone started to stockpile??

Keep in mind that if you have a 03FFL and a Certificate of Eligibility, you'll still be legally permitted to buy ammo online or via mail order.

Though of course, you have to convince the person you're buying from that it's 100% legal. I wouldn't be surprised to see a number of vendors decide it's not worth the hassle to ship ammo to Californians anymore.

OleCuss
04-26-2010, 4:08 AM
Do remember, however, that those who are the best informed are quite sure that those provisions will never actually kick in. AB962 is considered fatally flawed.

C.W.M.V.
04-26-2010, 5:56 AM
I've spoken to a few reps at sportsmans guide. They sounded like they were still trying to make sense of it but assured me that they would continue to sell everything they could to us

nick
04-26-2010, 6:57 AM
I've spoken to a few reps at sportsmans guide. They sounded like they were still trying to make sense of it but assured me that they would continue to sell everything they could to us

Just like they do now :)

tiki
04-26-2010, 7:05 AM
Keep in mind that if you have a 03FFL and a Certificate of Eligibility, you'll still be legally permitted to buy ammo online or via mail order.


Can anyone tell me what the annual cost to maintain a CoE costs?

timdps
04-26-2010, 8:35 AM
Can anyone tell me what the annual cost to maintain a CoE costs?


$22

Full Clip
04-26-2010, 8:40 AM
I wouldn't be surprised to see a number of vendors decide it's not worth the hassle to ship ammo to Californians anymore.

Exactly this.
Stock up now if you can.

Cobrafreak
04-26-2010, 10:19 AM
When incorporation of the 2nd amendment happens, would the mail order ban be reversed because of unconstitutionality?

liketoshoot
04-26-2010, 10:24 AM
Do remember, however, that those who are the best informed are quite sure that those provisions will never actually kick in. AB962 is considered fatally flawed.

When incorporation of the 2nd amendment happens, would the mail order ban be reversed because of unconstitutionality?

Sorry, but I'm a doubting Thomas, and will not belive it 'till I see it.

gunsmith
04-26-2010, 10:24 AM
I read on wikipedia that that John Kerry is pro 2nd amendment & so is Mayor Daley of Chicago!

orangeusa
04-26-2010, 10:27 AM
I used to get mad at out of state vendors not selling stuff to CA, but I don't blame them a bit. I've emailed a couple of GB and even a dealer in CA who won't sell.

Most were legitimate businessmen who decided a few $30 sales were not worth the effort, and were confused about the law. The OP points out ANOTHER source of FUD.

.

mofo74
04-26-2010, 10:31 AM
Wow. So I guess it's best to stock up on handgun ammo now.

So I shouldn't worry about rifle ammo and reloading supplies at the moment, right?

OleCuss
04-26-2010, 11:17 AM
Wow. So I guess it's best to stock up on handgun ammo now.

So I shouldn't worry about rifle ammo and reloading supplies at the moment, right?

No big downside to stocking up. Personally, I think the odds of further implementation of AB962 to be quite low so I don't worry about that. But since the odds of McDonald, Sykes, and Nordyke causing an overall increase in gun ownership and shooting (and ammo consumption), I think stocking up makes some sense.

I'd note, however, that if the anti-gunners get very lucky and AB962 kicks in fully - there will be a lot of people going to Reno every once in a while to buy ammo.

I don't think rifle ammo or reloading stuff will be a problem in any case.

mofo74
04-26-2010, 11:29 AM
No big downside to stocking up. Personally, I think the odds of further implementation of AB962 to be quite low so I don't worry about that. But since the odds of McDonald, Sykes, and Nordyke causing an overall increase in gun ownership and shooting (and ammo consumption), I think stocking up makes some sense.

I'd note, however, that if the anti-gunners get very lucky and AB962 kicks in fully - there will be a lot of people going to Reno every once in a while to buy ammo.

I don't think rifle ammo or reloading stuff will be a problem in any case.

Thanks.

I was looking to buy bulk packs of rifle ammo. I guess I'll change that to a little bit of rifle and more pistol ammo. Better to be safe, right?

C.W.M.V.
04-26-2010, 11:37 AM
Just like they do now :)
Ya Im still stocking up. They wont sell C&R Rifles here but they say that they will continue to sell rifle ammo if its legal to do so, we shall see.
When I talked to AIM they basically said call back in 6 months, well have a better idea then

I read on wikipedia that that John Kerry is pro 2nd amendment & so is Mayor Daley of Chicago!

Just like Moonbeam!

tiki
04-26-2010, 11:42 AM
Does having an 03 FFL and a COE enable you to buy reloading supplies at wholesale from vendors or is that something that you need an 06 FFL for?

Rainbow Warrior
04-26-2010, 11:50 AM
I read on wikipedia that that John Kerry is pro 2nd amendment & so is Mayor Daley of Chicago!

I don't know about Kerry but King Daley is a pro 2nd amendment guy, but just for himself and not the surfs.;)

ke6guj
04-26-2010, 12:40 PM
Does having an 03 FFL and a COE enable you to buy reloading supplies at wholesale from vendors or is that something that you need an 06 FFL for?
in order to buy wholesale from a vendor, you need whatever that vendor wants. Most vendors require an FFL of some type to get dealer pricing, sometimes an 03FFL is acceptable, sometimes it isn't. The existance, or lack of, a COE is probably not gonna matter to a vendor.

EBR Works
04-26-2010, 12:43 PM
Does having an 03 FFL and a COE enable you to buy reloading supplies at wholesale from vendors or is that something that you need an 06 FFL for?

With an FFL03, many online vendors will give you dealer pricing on everything.

C.W.M.V.
04-26-2010, 12:51 PM
With an FFL03, many online vendors will give you dealer pricing on everything.

Like who? Im still new to the FFL03 world.

ke6guj
04-26-2010, 1:04 PM
go look at the stickies in the C&R forum, there is a list of vendors there.

EBR Works
04-26-2010, 1:06 PM
Like who? Im still new to the FFL03 world.

Midway, Grafs, CMMG.....just to name a few.

C.W.M.V.
04-26-2010, 1:10 PM
Midway, Grafs, CMMG.....just to name a few.

MIDWAY???!!! F***!!! Ive had my 03 for a few months and Ive been buying there like mad!

ke6guj
04-26-2010, 1:19 PM
:kest:

C.W.M.V.
04-26-2010, 1:23 PM
:kest:

"Water, Like from the toilet?"

ke6guj
04-26-2010, 1:34 PM
Tbxq0IDqD04

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbxq0IDqD04

Rock_Islander
04-26-2010, 2:39 PM
Can someone post where it says in the actual bill, that it doesn't affect rifle or shotgun ammo???

I was under the impression that it was ammo period that would not and could not be shipped starting next year.

Oh and I printed out the bill a few weeks ago, don't have it on hand, but I clearly remember that it DOES in fact affect reloading stuff(s). Bullets and brass are considered "ammunition" under the bill, and so are magazines for your ammo. So if you order magazines cheaper online somewhere, you better think about stocking up on those too!

AB962 is a hassle, and ammo sales will sky rocket in the next 6 months

robertk
04-26-2010, 2:54 PM
Can someone post where it says in the actual bill, that it doesn't affect rifle or shotgun ammo???

I was under the impression that it was ammo period that would not and could not be shipped starting next year.

Oh and I printed out the bill a few weeks ago, don't have it on hand, but I clearly remember that it DOES in fact affect reloading stuff(s). Bullets and brass are considered "ammunition" under the bill, and so are magazines for your ammo. So if you order magazines cheaper online somewhere, you better think about stocking up on those too!

AB962 is a hassle, and ammo sales will sky rocket in the next 6 months


See Quiet's post above.

Pertinent text copied & pasted from Quiet's post:



Penal Code 12318
(a) Commencing February 1, 2011, the delivery or transfer of ownership of handgun ammunition may only occur in a face-to-face
transaction with the deliverer or transferor being provided bona fide evidence of identity from the purchaser or other transferee. A
violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
(b) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Bona fide evidence of identity" means a document issued by a federal, state, county, or municipal government, or subdivision or
agency thereof, including, but not limited to, a motor vehicle operator's license, state identification card, identification card issued to a member of the Armed Forces, or other form of identification that bears the name, date of birth, description, and picture of the person.
(2) "Handgun ammunition" means handgun ammunition as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12323, but excluding ammunition designed and intended to be used in an "antique firearm" as defined in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code. Handgun ammunition does not include blanks.
(3) "Handgun ammunition vendor" has the same meaning as set forth in Section 12060.
(c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to or affect the deliveries, transfers, or sales of, handgun ammunition to any of the following:
(1) Authorized law enforcement representatives of cities, counties, cities and counties, or state and federal governments for
exclusive use by those government agencies if, prior to the delivery, transfer, or sale of the handgun ammunition, written authorization from the head of the agency employing the purchaser or transferee, is obtained identifying the employee as an individual authorized to conduct the transaction, and authorizing the transaction for the exclusive use of the agency employing the individual.
(2) Sworn peace officers, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 who are authorized to carry a
firearm in the course and scope of their duties.
(3) Importers and manufacturers of handgun ammunition or firearms licensed to engage in business pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) Persons who are on the centralized list maintained by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12083.
(5) Persons whose licensed premises are outside this state who are licensed as dealers or collectors of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(6) Persons licensed as collectors of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto whose licensed premises are within this state who has a current certificate of
eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071.
(7) A handgun ammunition vendor.
(8) A consultant-evaluator, as defined in subdivision (s) of Section 12001.

Penal Code 12323
As used in this chapter, the following definitions shall apply:
(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

dar25
04-26-2010, 3:05 PM
I wonder if 5.7x28mm round would be defined as handgun ammo... Seems like it.

ke6guj
04-26-2010, 3:54 PM
I wonder if 5.7x28mm round would be defined as handgun ammo... Seems like it.that is where the issue is at, "dual use" ammo.

AB962 relies on this defintion of handgun ammo:

12323. As used in this chapter, the following definitions shall apply: (a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

What does that mean, is 5.7x28mm ammo principally for use in the 5.7mm pistol, and therefore handgun ammo, even though it may also be used in the 5.7mm rifles like the PS90, or is it rifle ammo for use in the PS, that may also be used inthe 5.7mm pistols?

Nobody knows the answer to that, and IIRC, CADOJ has stated that they don't plan to write any supporting regulations to clarify what the law means. So, because of that, many retailers have sequestered all handgun/rifle ammo away from the public, since they don't know if CADOJ wanted to say that that .45/70 ammo they had on the shelf was handgun ammo since it could be used in a handgun.

EBR Works
04-26-2010, 3:57 PM
CADOJ has stated that they don't plan to write any supporting regulations to clarify what the law means.

Unbelievable....:banghead:

Librarian
04-26-2010, 6:09 PM
Can someone post where it says in the actual bill, that it doesn't affect rifle or shotgun ammo???

I was under the impression that it was ammo period that would not and could not be shipped starting next year.

Oh and I printed out the bill a few weeks ago, don't have it on hand, but I clearly remember that it DOES in fact affect reloading stuff(s). Bullets and brass are considered "ammunition" under the bill, and so are magazines for your ammo. So if you order magazines cheaper online somewhere, you better think about stocking up on those too!

AB962 is a hassle, and ammo sales will sky rocket in the next 6 months
Bill phrasing is tricky - read this link (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/2009_-_AB_962_De_Leon%2C_Ammunition) to see why the bill does NOT affect reloading materials.

Scratch705
04-26-2010, 7:20 PM
this is why i'm stocking .22lr and 9mm.

since .22lr is dual use, and i'm sure most retailers will put it in the handgun category.

ned946
04-26-2010, 7:27 PM
So, how many rounds equate to a right wing militia?
Got 600 rounds on order. 600 in storage now.

Scratch705
04-26-2010, 7:33 PM
So, how many rounds equate to a right wing militia?
Got 600 rounds on order. 600 in storage now.

that is nothing.... add two more zeros on the end then maybe you can enter the "right wing militia" club.

thebronze
04-26-2010, 7:33 PM
So, how many rounds equate to a right wing militia?
Got 600 rounds on order. 600 in storage now.

599

:rofl2:

OleCuss
04-26-2010, 7:49 PM
So, how many rounds equate to a right wing militia?
Got 600 rounds on order. 600 in storage now.

Heck, even as one who doesn't believe the rest of AB962 will kick in - I've got more than that!

Think of it. If you want to maintain good handgun competence you could argue for firing off 50 rounds or more every week or two. If you go on the low side let's say you fire 50 rounds every two weeks. That makes for 1,300 rounds per year. If you go just up to 100 rounds every week then you're talking 5,200 rounds per year. This would suggest 1,000 rounds would last you just a coupla months if you run into difficulties getting more ammo.

And it's my understanding some of the pros will fire off over 10,000 in a single week! I don't know if it's true - but I guarantee I don't have the budget for that. . .

advocatusdiaboli
04-26-2010, 7:58 PM
So, how many rounds equate to a right wing militia?
Got 600 rounds on order. 600 in storage now.

As many or few as the anti-gun lib-tards decide next session.

I am so tired of this constant drum beat of shrinking our rights while this state spends $14 billion a year on illegal immigrant healthcare and who knows how much more in uninsured motorist coverage, identity theft, gang crime, degradation of our schools, and more. But, oh yeah, restrict firearm ownership for law-abiding citizens. That's the major problem to deal with. Yeah. How's that working out Kalifornia?

GM4spd
04-27-2010, 6:33 AM
When incorporation of the 2nd amendment happens, would the mail order ban be reversed because of unconstitutionality?


Not necessarily. Pete