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winnre
04-25-2010, 9:40 AM
I am going from point A to point B. I have a rifle. No ammo. I stop for lunch but do not want the leave the rifle in the pickup truck since there is no true way to secure it.

I remove the bolt and put it in the glove box and lock it. I break the AR15 in half, put in place a trigger lock, and put it in a non-descript hard sided case with two locks that each need a separate key that I also locked in the glove box of the truck.

I have the case beside me during lunch in a McDonald's when the local sheriff asks me if I have a gun in the case.

What am I guilty of?

NiteQwill
04-25-2010, 9:45 AM
Nothing. You're guilty of nothing. And STFU if questioned.

Cokebottle
04-25-2010, 9:55 AM
Legally, as long as it's not a school zone, you can walk into McD's with the thing slung across your back as long as it's unloaded.

Cokebottle
04-25-2010, 9:59 AM
I remove the bolt and put it in the glove box and lock it. I break the AR15 in half, put in place a trigger lock, and put it in a non-descript hard sided case with two locks that each need a separate key that I also locked in the glove box of the truck.
TOTALLY overkill.

If the case is big enough to house the complete rifle, just lock it in the case and you're legal in a school zone.
If the case (non-descript) is less than 36" long, then break the upper apart from the lower.

There is no need for a trigger lock.
There is no need to lock the bolt in the glove box.
There is no need for two separately-keyed locks.
There is no need to lock the keys in the glove box.
Just put the gun in the locked container and put the key in your pocket.
Know what?
You can even have AMMO in the same case with the rifle.
You can even have ammo loaded into the magazines and in the same case with the rifle as long as they are not inserted into the magwell.

guimus
04-25-2010, 10:01 AM
Only thing you're guilty of is being overly cautious.

winnre
04-25-2010, 10:10 AM
It's not a concealed weapon?

Cokebottle
04-25-2010, 10:11 AM
It's not a concealed weapon?
Yes, but in a locked container, it's legal and exempt from the CCW laws.

winnre
04-25-2010, 10:41 AM
Locked container.... ooh I await some fool to make a "locking" holster so they are avoiding the CCW rules.

HokeySon
04-25-2010, 10:46 AM
It's not a concealed weapon?

No, it is not a weapon capable of being concealed on your person (whether it is in a locked container or not). Show the sheriff your AR and let him admire it, but tell him to wipe off the french fry grease from his hands before he touches it.

HokeySon
04-25-2010, 10:51 AM
Locked container.... ooh I await some fool to make a "locking" holster so they are avoiding the CCW rules.

You are mixing up a lot of rules here.

Start with is it loaded,

Then go to is it a weapon that is capable of being concealed,

then go to is it concealed.

The whole UOC thing is based on the idea that the gun is not loaded or concealed such that no law is violated by carrying it openly and unloaded. The locked container rule is for transportation of a concealable firearm in a car -- it would be unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon if not for the exception for transportation in locked container rule.

Sinixstar
04-25-2010, 11:53 AM
Technically, only the lower is the actual gun. You could lock up the lower - and throw the rest in a case - and legally/honestly say "no" when asked if you have a gun in the case. Legally, you don't have a gun, you have gun parts.

neuron
04-25-2010, 6:58 PM
I think that the OP was concerned about two separate things: 1) how to secure the rifle against theft in the vehicle; and, 2) the legal ways to store the rifle in the vehicle and/or transport it outside the vehicle at a stopover.

Re item 1: keep the rifle out of plain view when the vehicle is parked, so theives will not notice it and be tempted. The trunk is a good place if you have one. Out of sight behind the seats if you're in a pickup. Lock your vehicle. The rifle must be unloaded. There's no law that says you need to use a cable lock, but it is a good idea. You don't want to make it easy for a BG to break in and get your gun and load it.

Re item 2: Long guns (rifles and shotguns) are not considered "concealable," but you will run afoul of the loaded gun laws if you transport them loaded, so keep them unloaded.

I wonder if the new proposed bill by the CA Legislature making UOC illegal will affect long guns? Not sure about it, maybe someone will chime in. IF the proposed bill DOES affect long guns, due to stupid language skills of folk like Ammiano et al., this might provide a good argument against the proposed bill. :)

Sinixstar
04-25-2010, 7:53 PM
I think that the OP was concerned about two separate things: 1) how to secure the rifle against theft in the vehicle; and, 2) the legal ways to store the rifle in the vehicle and/or transport it outside the vehicle at a stopover.

Re item 1: keep the rifle out of plain view when the vehicle is parked, so theives will not notice it and be tempted. The trunk is a good place if you have one. Out of sight behind the seats if you're in a pickup. Lock your vehicle. The rifle must be unloaded. There's no law that says you need to use a cable lock, but it is a good idea. You don't want to make it easy for a BG to break in and get your gun and load it.

Re item 2: Long guns (rifles and shotguns) are not considered "concealable," but you will run afoul of the loaded gun laws if you transport them loaded, so keep them unloaded.

I wonder if the new proposed bill by the CA Legislature making UOC illegal will affect long guns? Not sure about it, maybe someone will chime in. IF the proposed bill DOES affect long guns, due to stupid language skills of folk like Ammiano et al., this might provide a good argument against the proposed bill. :)

Carrying = on your person (or in a holster on your person).
Transporting = in a case.

I think if you're concerned about issues re: UOC and rifles - your best bet would be to follow the guidelines for transporting. Use a case and keep it in the vehicle, locked. Do yourself a favor and keep it out of sight, and out of reach. That way there can't be any case to be made that you're carrying it - you're transporting it according to the DOJ and Federal guidelines.

Now - legally speaking, even if you have it sitting next to you in a locked case - you're not carrying (remember, carrying = on your person).

It's a question of exposure though. Even though you're legally within your right, we all know the knowledge level of some people when it comes to the law (even those who are supposed to enforce the law). Taking on the extra exposure just increases your risk of harassment. I wish I could say that's not the case - but it is.

In terms of specific language - there isn't really any change to that. It specifically addresses unloaded handguns carried openly in holsters


This bill would delete the exception pertaining to firearms
carried openly in belt holsters. The bill would also establish an
exemption to the offense for transportation of a firearm by members
of specified organizations going directly to or from official parade
duty or ceremonial occasions, as specified.
By expanding the scope of an existing offense, this bill would
impose a state-mandated local program.
Existing law, subject to exceptions, makes it an offense to carry
a loaded firearm in specified public areas.
The bill would, subject to exceptions, make it a misdemeanor,
punishable as specified, to openly carry an unloaded handgun on the
person in specified public areas.


It would have zero effect on rifles, or guns carried in a locked case - off of the person.

HokeySon
04-25-2010, 8:03 PM
Now - legally speaking, even if you have it sitting next to you in a locked case - you're not carrying (remember, carrying = on your person).



Are you sure about this? I don't have any specific precedent to cite off the top of my head, but I think this is wrong. The law (as currently written) is not phrased in terms of "carrying" and the language of "on the person" is in the definition of a concealable firearm -- "capable of being concealed ..." If a handgun is in your car concealed (and not in a locked container), you are violating the law whether or not it is on your person. There are lots of other instances as well where ready access is equated with possession etc. I just do not think your analysis is correct.

Anyway, as has been mentioned, the problem with the hypothetical posed is that it is a rifle to which the concealment laws do not apply in the first instance.

dirtykoala
04-26-2010, 7:38 AM
Legally, as long as it's not a school zone, you can walk into McD's with the thing slung across your back as long as it's unloaded.

Also, legally, if you are in a school zone, you can walk into McD';s with the thing slung across your back as long as its unloaded.

626.9.

(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.

(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).

(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm under any of the following circumstances:

(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the firearm is otherwise lawful.

(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle. This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in accordance with state law.

if a LEO asks whats inside your case you need to find out a few things from them and make a few things clear to them;
why are they talking to you?
do they have reason that you have, are, or are about to commit a crime?
are you being detained?
are you legally required to answer their questions?
make it clear that you are not in possession of anything illegal or that you should not have in your possession.
make it clear that you do not and will not consent to any searches or seizures of your belongings unless they have a warrant.

after the above is cleared up, stop talking to them. there is no reason to answer a cops questions, provide them with ID, or converse with them at all really. think of them as an average joe wearing a blue costume, if some bum came up and asked you what was in your box there would be no reason to tell them, cops are no different unless they have a warrant or you are in the commision of a crime.

paul0660
04-26-2010, 8:01 AM
Also, legally, if you are in a school zone, you can walk into McD';s with the thing slung across your back as long as its unloaded.


The Federal gun free school zone law (18 USC 922) http://trac.syr.edu/laws/18/18USC00922.html

Requires that long guns, as well as concealable weapons, be in a locked case.

metalhead357
04-26-2010, 8:04 AM
Also, legally, if you are in a school zone, you can walk into McD';s with the thing slung across your back as long as its unloaded.

626.9.

(a) This section shall be known, and may be cited, as the Gun-Free School Zone Act of 1995.

(b) Any person who possesses a firearm in a place that the person knows, or reasonably should know, is a school zone, as defined in paragraph (1) of subdivision (e), unless it is with the written permission of the school district superintendent, his or her designee, or equivalent school authority, shall be punished as specified in subdivision (f).

(c) Subdivision (b) does not apply to the possession of a firearm under any of the following circumstances:

(1) Within a place of residence or place of business or on private property, if the place of residence, place of business, or private property is not part of the school grounds and the possession of the firearm is otherwise lawful.

(2) When the firearm is an unloaded pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person and is in a locked container or within the locked trunk of a motor vehicle. This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful transportation of any other firearm, other than a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person, in accordance with state law.

if a LEO asks whats inside your case you need to find out a few things from them and make a few things clear to them;
why are they talking to you?
do they have reason that you have, are, or are about to commit a crime?
are you being detained?
are you legally required to answer their questions?
make it clear that you are not in possession of anything illegal or that you should not have in your possession.
make it clear that you do not and will not consent to any searches or seizures of your belongings unless they have a warrant.

after the above is cleared up, stop talking to them. there is no reason to answer a cops questions, provide them with ID, or converse with them at all really. think of them as an average joe wearing a blue costume, if some bum came up and asked you what was in your box there would be no reason to tell them, cops are no different unless they have a warrant or you are in the commision of a crime.


+1000000000000 GOOOOOOOOOD POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)

Rock_Islander
04-26-2010, 8:19 AM
Yep. Don't talk to the Cops.

"Bye sir, let me finish my burger, you have a good one."

So how did the actual conversation with the sheriff go down when he asked you what was in the gun-case???

dirtykoala
04-26-2010, 8:47 AM
The Federal gun free school zone law (18 USC 922) http://trac.syr.edu/laws/18/18USC00922.html

Requires that long guns, as well as concealable weapons, be in a locked case.

Are you referring to the Federal gun fee school zone act that was struck down in 1995?

GrizzlyGuy
04-26-2010, 9:52 AM
The Federal gun free school zone law (18 USC 922) http://trac.syr.edu/laws/18/18USC00922.html

Requires that long guns, as well as concealable weapons, be in a locked case.

FYI, long guns can also be locked into a gun rack (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4167464#post4167464) rather than a container. The federal law would allow handguns to be locked that way as well, but that wouldn't meet our state GFSZ law (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Gun_Free_School_Zones#Law_2) for handguns (they need to be in a container).

Cokebottle
04-26-2010, 5:30 PM
Are you referring to the Federal gun fee school zone act that was struck down in 1995?
They revamped it and used the Commerce Clause. It is still in effect under a different USC. Hasn't yet been tested in court.

sqroot3
04-27-2010, 5:16 AM
The Federal gun free school zone law (18 USC 922) requires that long guns, as well as concealable weapons, be in a locked case.
Is the interpretation of a locked container here the same as in common CA interpretation--that is, gun in trunk not accessible through cabin is good to go?