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View Full Version : The better way to mount dual optics?


davy
04-24-2010, 3:49 PM
Some people mount a scope and a red dot sight on the same rifle so they can hit both long and short range shots.

http://madtrigger.net/madtrigger/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=25&Itemid=25

Some people mount their red dot sight RIGHT ON TOP of their scopes.

http://www.lbcstudios.com/2010/03/everything-fde.html

My question is, do both these setups function the same? What are the pros and cons of each?

ChrisTKHarris
04-24-2010, 3:53 PM
Do something like this from LaRue instead. ACOG with a T1.
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/catalog/P6208155.JPG

UserM4
04-24-2010, 3:56 PM
There's a lot of different ways to mount a red dot along with a magnified optic. Here's a couple more.

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3390/larueltmrd.jpg (http://img444.imageshack.us/i/larueltmrd.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=39

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6080/ddmt1.jpg (http://img18.imageshack.us/i/ddmt1.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9569/ddmt2.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/ddmt2.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=113

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/4345/gggaz.jpg (http://img689.imageshack.us/i/gggaz.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
http://www.gggaz.com/index.php?id=202&parents=69,162

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5956/laruekt724.jpg (http://img179.imageshack.us/i/laruekt724.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/9421/laruekt724b.jpg (http://img97.imageshack.us/i/laruekt724b.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=383

2Cute2Shoot
04-24-2010, 3:56 PM
Do something like this from LaRue instead. ACOG with a T1.
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/catalog/P6208155.JPG

That looks like two turtles humping :rofl:. There has got to be a better way!

ChrisTKHarris
04-24-2010, 4:03 PM
That looks like two turtles humping :rofl:. There has got to be a better way!

okay

davy
04-24-2010, 4:19 PM
Thanks for the photos guys, really appreciate them.

BUT, I am really asking about the pros and cons of mounting the red dot on top of the scope VS. mounting the red dot offset at the 1 o'clock direction.

Does anybody have any EXPERIENCE with either of these setups as to be able to share some user feedback?

Cobrafreak
04-24-2010, 4:23 PM
I wouldn't want the red dot on top unless it didn't significantly cause the weapon to be any taller. A taller target is an easier target.

davy
04-24-2010, 4:27 PM
I wouldn't want the red dot on top unless it didn't significantly cause the weapon to be any taller. A taller target is an easier target.

Okay, so that's one negative for mounting the two on top of each other, a bigger headshot target.

Would both setups be just as quick and accurate though?

Wolfhound9k
04-24-2010, 4:27 PM
I haven't personally run this type of setup before because I don't shoot 3-gun competitions, but right off the bat you can tell that mounting the red dot on top of the scope will result in a greater sight over bore height to have to compensate for.

Cobrafreak
04-24-2010, 4:31 PM
Another thing. If you mount the dot or laser on top and you knock your rig into a tree, rock, or drop it, both your aiming devices are going to be off in one blow. This would suck.

$P-Ritch$
04-24-2010, 4:32 PM
The only plus I've ever heard of having on off-set red dot as opposed to a top-mounted red dot is that you are able to maintain a consistent cheek weld. With a top-mounted dot you have to raise your head slightly from the stock to look through it. For the 1 o'clock mount you just rotate the rifle slightly to the left, but your head position remains the same.

UserM4
04-24-2010, 4:40 PM
I think that if you're pulling the trigger at long range, your spotter should handle close range. :p

Josh3239
04-24-2010, 4:42 PM
I would NOT do a red dot mounted on top of a scope. I have had built in irons on top of an old ACOG and currently have one built in on my Elcan. It is just awkward way of shooting, requires changing your position. It is much easier IMO to have it off set. The only change you have to make is canting your rifle a small amount. I personally really don't like it, but my friend in Afghanistan has an ACOG with the red dot on top and loves it, then again he isn't much of a gun person. I thought of doing an off set scope but in the end I decided it was just unnecessary weight and my optic is fine on 1x with both eyes open. I still like the idea of the JP style off set irons but again, seems like useless extra weight.

Red dot on top
Pros: Won't snag, won't take up rail space on handguard
Cons: Awkward, lose check weld to aim through

Red dot offset
Pros: No lose of cheek weld, just cant rifle to use, can be mounted anywhere on a rail
Cons: Can snag or make shooting around barriers difficult.

davy
04-24-2010, 5:29 PM
I would NOT do a red dot mounted on top of a scope. I have had built in irons on top of an old ACOG and currently have one built in on my Elcan. It is just awkward way of shooting, requires changing your position. It is much easier IMO to have it off set. The only change you have to make is canting your rifle a small amount. I personally really don't like it, but my friend in Afghanistan has an ACOG with the red dot on top and loves it, then again he isn't much of a gun person. I thought of doing an off set scope but in the end I decided it was just unnecessary weight and my optic is fine on 1x with both eyes open. I still like the idea of the JP style off set irons but again, seems like useless extra weight.

Red dot on top
Pros: Won't snag, won't take up rail space on handguard
Cons: Awkward, lose check weld to aim through

Red dot offset
Pros: No lose of cheek weld, just cant rifle to use, can be mounted anywhere on a rail
Cons: Can snag or make shooting around barriers difficult.

So I take it for the FASTEST target acquiring/transition from scope to dot, mounting the red dot off-set at 1 o'clock is the better setup over docking it on top of scope/ACOG?

Why is it that I have NEVER seen any photos of any marines/anybody ANYWHERE use the dual optic setup? Does the military not like the setup?

Jwood562
04-24-2010, 5:40 PM
I do not think a con of a top mount red dot is that you expose more of your head for an enemy kill shot. Think about it a red dot is a cqb optic so you are already within a few yards so it is already shtf.

The con is you lose your cheekweld fir stability, that is all.

Pros are that no rail space is taken. They can be very tall is you use the aimpoint on top of the acog like shown above but the acog with a doctor optic is fantastic.

Now for offset mount.
I think the pros are better cheekweld and a little faster aquistion on target, but both depend on how you train.

I also think that a lot of offset mounts are made because there is no way to mount a red dot on top of their primary optic so offset mounts are created out of necessity for a red dot

davy
04-24-2010, 6:07 PM
Interesting, what do most three gunners use?

And why does the military not go with the dual optic setup?

GM_77
04-24-2010, 6:10 PM
So I take it for the FASTEST target acquiring/transition from scope to dot, mounting the red dot off-set at 1 o'clock is the better setup over docking it on top of scope/ACOG?

Why is it that I have NEVER seen any photos of any marines/anybody ANYWHERE use the dual optic setup? Does the military not like the setup?

Maybe because it makes the rifle heavier and you really need one or the other most of the time so you ditch the one you don't need.

I see a lot of three gunners cant the optic to the side so they tilt the gun to shoot up close.

dieselpower
04-24-2010, 7:09 PM
Thats a REPLICA fake Chi-com knock-off plastic C-more. A Plastic C-more would be a NO-GO on a tactical firearm...but the chi-com airsoft one is even more of a no-go...my god what is this guy thinking....

slappomatt
04-24-2010, 7:28 PM
Interesting, what do most three gunners use?

And why does the military not go with the dual optic setup?

I personally don't get it. if you are close enough to your threat that a 4X acog wont work than you wont have time to readjust your cheek weld to a chin weld and try and balance your gun to get the red dot on target. The offset ones would be the only viable option but its more weight that most people want to carry around and its alot of money there. the acog and T1 cost more than the whole rifle. probably close to double the rifle cost.

UserM4
04-24-2010, 8:10 PM
If you want a magnified optic and a red dot, a popular way to go is an Aimpoint or Eotech with a 3x or 4x magnifier on a pivot mount.

416stroker
04-24-2010, 8:11 PM
Do something like this from LaRue instead. ACOG with a T1.
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/catalog/P6208155.JPG

I like this.

davy
04-24-2010, 8:40 PM
Thats a REPLICA fake Chi-com knock-off plastic C-more. A Plastic C-more would be a NO-GO on a tactical firearm...but the chi-com airsoft one is even more of a no-go...my god what is this guy thinking....

What are you talking about?

dieselpower
04-24-2010, 9:28 PM
What are you talking about?

The first picture in the OP. The red dot optic mounted on the side is a replica C-more, not a true one. The power knob is wrong. Even a true C-more needs to be an aluminum one not a plastic one to be rugged enough for a duty firearm. I guess its ok for a range plinker bench work firearm. Then again, I see no reason to mount a RDS on a bench rifle.

dchang0
04-24-2010, 9:36 PM
I personally don't get it. if you are close enough to your threat that a 4X acog wont work than you wont have time to readjust your cheek weld to a chin weld and try and balance your gun to get the red dot on target. The offset ones would be the only viable option but its more weight that most people want to carry around and its alot of money there. the acog and T1 cost more than the whole rifle. probably close to double the rifle cost.

In 3-gun, the shooter would run most of a stage with the red dot without having to adjust cheekweld or cant. The long-range shots are usually taken at the end of the stage or at the beginning. Rarely do they set it up where a shooter is forced to switch back and forth, though there have been some particularly nasty stages where exactly that is required.

A fixed magnification ACOG does slow down the shooter for the close-range shots, which are usually the bulk of the stage. One has to practice a lot with BAC-capable ACOGs to get as fast on them as with a red dot at close range.

Trust me, I know. I run a fixed 3X ACOG for 3-gun and tactical classes. And it definitely slows me down on the close-range stuff.

Juice5610
04-24-2010, 9:47 PM
Do something like this from LaRue instead. ACOG with a T1.
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/catalog/P6208155.JPG

You my good man win at the internet

pacrimguru
04-25-2010, 1:43 AM
this is my set up. i found out about this mount from fellow calgunner jicko. it's a matt burkett mount for jpoint and docter sights. what's good about this mount is that unlike the other ones out there, this one mounts the sight correctly directly over the bore. no offset issues at all. cheek weld is easy to obtain just by angling the rifle for a slight cant. there's more about this mount in a thread in the optics forum.

for my use, i don't see the value of adding something as heavy as a T-1 on a primarily magnified scope rifle. the smaller and ultra light jpoint / docter sights add a "just in case" red dot feature to your rifle without adding much weight to an already (relatively) heavy build.

sight mounts that place a red dot on top of another optic can be awkward to use. they eliminate any kind of cheek weld and force the shooter to adapt something like a chin weld or no weld at all.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/pacrimguru/AR-15%20SPR/94fae81d.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/pacrimguru/AR-15%20SPR/e6f208c1.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/pacrimguru/AR-15%20SPR/517e0a10.jpg

Plisk
04-25-2010, 10:58 AM
That looks like two turtles humping :rofl:. There has got to be a better way!

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6R5QueuvKQ4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6R5QueuvKQ4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

What's better than turtles humping? :p

dlkk
04-25-2010, 11:36 AM
http://www.warnescopemounts.com/ramp_mount.html

Just saw this the other night

Jeffy
04-25-2010, 1:15 PM
So I take it for the FASTEST target acquiring/transition from scope to dot, mounting the red dot off-set at 1 o'clock is the better setup over docking it on top of scope/ACOG?

Why is it that I have NEVER seen any photos of any marines/anybody ANYWHERE use the dual optic setup? Does the military not like the setup?Having two optics isn't as fast as just having one for the proper roll. In the military you are not alone don't have to carry the burden of having one rifle for all rolls. I have seen some pictures of TA31DOC's in the field but they are not common. With an ACOG with BAC, you should be able to use it as a 1x with some practice. It's not going to be as fast as a true 1x but then a 1x isn't going to have 4x either. Well, unless you go with something like a Elcan Spectre.

Also, keep in mind that for 3-gun, you have an idea of what ranges you'll be shooting at before hand. If you're shooting in the real world, you don't want to have to slow your reaction time, thinking about which optic to use. For a scoped rifle with more then 4x and no BAC, it's quicker to use a back-up optic then to have to remove the scope to flip up the irons to get back into the game.

2Cute2Shoot
04-25-2010, 2:46 PM
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What's better than turtles humping? :p

That's a whole-nother thread :)

davy
04-25-2010, 5:14 PM
this is my set up. i found out about this mount from fellow calgunner jicko. it's a matt burkett mount for jpoint and docter sights. what's good about this mount is that unlike the other ones out there, this one mounts the sight correctly directly over the bore. no offset issues at all. cheek weld is easy to obtain just by angling the rifle for a slight cant. there's more about this mount in a thread in the optics forum.

for my use, i don't see the value of adding something as heavy as a T-1 on a primarily magnified scope rifle. the smaller and ultra light jpoint / docter sights add a "just in case" red dot feature to your rifle without adding much weight to an already (relatively) heavy build.

sight mounts that place a red dot on top of another optic can be awkward to use. they eliminate any kind of cheek weld and force the shooter to adapt something like a chin weld or no weld at all.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/pacrimguru/AR-15%20SPR/94fae81d.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/pacrimguru/AR-15%20SPR/e6f208c1.jpg

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/pacrimguru/AR-15%20SPR/517e0a10.jpg
That is a nice mount. I be it would be even sweeter (lighter) with an ACOG. How much does the mount weigh?

ChrisTKHarris
04-25-2010, 7:20 PM
I like this.

Yeah it's pretty simple and keeps everything vertical which I think looks better.

You my good man win at the internet

:)

anniepoks
04-25-2010, 7:22 PM
http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk62/pacrimguru/AR-15%20SPR/517e0a10.jpg[/QUOTE]

i like this best, simple.

L4D
04-25-2010, 10:57 PM
Does the Larue offset mount for the T-1 only come in combo with a T-1?