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Crawfish141
04-23-2010, 5:41 PM
What are my options as far as sub $700 Ak's? I wan't to do a featureless build so a fixed stock is very important. With these criteria what are the best deals out there. Also who has a good deal on filled in Ak pistol grips?

Cokebottle
04-23-2010, 5:48 PM
Featureless?

Go with the Saiga 7.62.
Stock with a monte-carlo stock and the trigger in the "proper" position for use without a pistol grip.
They can be had for around $400 OTD through the right FFL buying from Atlantic.

Best thing is, they are made in Russia... these are not parts kits that were rebuilt by shaved monkeys at some US factory like Century or Lancaster... rather than going that route, may as well buy a parts kit and build your own so you have better control over quality.

CombatMP
04-23-2010, 5:54 PM
Featureless?

Go with the Saiga 7.62.
Stock with a monte-carlo stock and the trigger in the "proper" position for use without a pistol grip.
They can be had for around $400 OTD through the right FFL buying from Atlantic.

Best thing is, they are made in Russia... these are not parts kits that were rebuilt by shaved monkeys at some US factory like Century or Lancaster... rather than going that route, may as well buy a parts kit and build your own so you have better control over quality.

Lancaster any good?

WILDMAN442
04-23-2010, 6:13 PM
Hell man

Saiga 223 or better yet 762x39 in true AK fashion

Then convert it. many members have done that and you can still be well under 700 if I am not mistaken.

Maybe some guys who have done the conversion can chime in

justin

muritku
04-23-2010, 6:14 PM
+1 for saiga 7.62 love mine!

jaustin612
04-23-2010, 6:27 PM
Dude, go for the Saiga, either in 7.62 or 5.45.

All you need to do is grind the mag release down a hair, and install a bullet guide and the saiga, while still being totally kali-compliant can take all your pre-ban ak high-caps, or regular 10/30 ones.

Thats the best way to go, saigas are top notch quality and you'll stay under 500 in all likelyhood.

The Director
04-23-2010, 7:03 PM
I thought all AKs were sub 700!

Cokebottle
04-23-2010, 7:04 PM
Lancaster any good?
Better than Century (WASR), but there have still been a lot of reports of hit-miss quality.

Fact is they are rebuilds... same as if you bought a parts kit and bent your own receiver. Henderson's WASRs are at least inspected by Henderson employees and seem to be pretty solid, but from other sources, you might get one with a barrel or gas system plugged with Cosmoline, improper fit or build quality... honestly, if I wanted an AK, I'd convert a Saiga or buy a parts kit and build my own.

dskell
04-23-2010, 7:14 PM
+1 for converting a Saiga. If you shop around you can do it for under $500.

C_1
04-23-2010, 9:36 PM
Featureless AK? Get a Saiga and call it a day :)

AlliedArmory
04-23-2010, 9:53 PM
Get a Saiga

nemisis1400
04-23-2010, 10:10 PM
I can build one from a flat for about $500. dunno about quality though.

hella fun to do though

Stamatos
04-23-2010, 10:22 PM
+2 for Saiga

Shady
04-23-2010, 11:08 PM
my lancaster i have for sale

Z ME FLY
04-24-2010, 12:54 AM
Featureless? SAIGA ALL THE WAY! Get one for less than $400 OTD including your dros and about 1K of 7.62 and you will be good.

darkknight
04-24-2010, 3:38 AM
Get a siaga

Jax Smirking Revenge
04-24-2010, 6:49 AM
Dude, go for the Saiga, either in 7.62 or 5.45.

All you need to do is grind the mag release down a hair, and install a bullet guide and the saiga, while still being totally kali-compliant can take all your pre-ban ak high-caps, or regular 10/30 ones.

Thats the best way to go, saigas are top notch quality and you'll stay under 500 in all likelyhood.

DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT DO THIS!

This will bring you smack dab in violation of federal 922(r) and leave you open to being charged with a crime and doing some time in federal custody! If you adapt your rifle to accept magazines with a capacity higher than ten, you have altered the rifle from its import configuration in the eyes of the law. You must make sure that you replace enough parts with U.S. made parts to not be in violation. You may feel like this is just a technicality but you will be guilty of a crime if it goes to trial. DO NOT TAKE THIS CHANCE!

That being said; I did the full conversion on mine while keeping it CA and U.S. compliant and I can't say enough good about the rifle. I have even converted one of my die hard AR buddies over to the AK platform.

1337Grenadier
04-24-2010, 9:26 AM
Lancaster any good?

If you poke around on the AK section of Ar15.com you will find lots of lancaster horror stories. Aparently the 74's have been suffering from problems like enlarged gas port's causing top covers to fly off and popped rivets to sub par barrels that begin key holing after 250 to 1000 rounds. As far as century go's its pretty much a roll of the dice so if you go that route make sure you do your homework and be able to inspect the rifle in person before you purchase it. I would go the Saiga route or try to see if peach state guns has any TGI ak's left.

Last I heard Peach state guns will ship to California.

http://www.peachstateguns.com/

cannon
04-24-2010, 9:51 AM
So it seems we agree. Get a Saiga and 1k of ammo.

SJgunguy24
04-24-2010, 9:51 AM
Dude, go for the Saiga, either in 7.62 or 5.45.

All you need to do is grind the mag release down a hair, and install a bullet guide and the saiga, while still being totally kali-compliant can take all your pre-ban ak high-caps, or regular 10/30 ones.

Thats the best way to go, saigas are top notch quality and you'll stay under 500 in all likelyhood.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hey Mr Felony, do us a favor and quit giving advice untill you have a complete grasp of the laws that deal with imported firearms.

What Mr. Felony has described can get you in trouble. You need to replace at least 4 imported parts with US made parts as described here.http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance.
The easiest way IMO is to go the Cheap Bastard route, bullet guild, plastic plugs, Tapco FCG (3 US parts), Tapco buttstock (1 US part), and a little grinding and a rivet or bolt and viola.......A compliant gun. Slap a Moster man grip and you now have a compliant gun and .......ding.....NO FELONIES!!!!!

Cokebottle
04-24-2010, 10:20 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hey Mr Felony, do us a favor and quit giving advice untill you have a complete grasp of the laws that deal with imported firearms.

What Mr. Felony has described can get you in trouble. You need to replace at least 4 imported parts with US made parts as described here.http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance.
The easiest way IMO is to go the Cheap Bastard route, bullet guild, plastic plugs, Tapco FCG (3 US parts), Tapco buttstock (1 US part), and a little grinding and a rivet or bolt and viola.......A compliant gun. Slap a Moster man grip and you now have a compliant gun and .......ding.....NO FELONIES!!!!!
Or a Tapco handguard and domestic magazines.

CSACANNONEER
04-24-2010, 10:27 AM
If a Saiga will function properly with a 10 round mag and zero modification to the rifle, is it legal? I've seen AK mags converted to work in stock Saigas.

SJgunguy24
04-24-2010, 10:27 AM
Or a Tapco handguard and domestic magazines.

Haven't found too many US mags that feed worth a damn.

Cokebottle
04-24-2010, 10:32 AM
If a Saiga will function properly with a 10 round mag and zero modification to the rifle, is it legal? I've seen AK mags converted to work in stock Saigas.
100%

The stock Saiga has a monte carlo stock, no muzzle device, no bayo mount, no pistol grip, and a 10rd mag, so it is considered "sporting" under 922(r).

SJgunguy24
04-24-2010, 10:35 AM
If a Saiga will function properly with a 10 round mag and zero modification to the rifle, is it legal? I've seen AK mags converted to work in stock Saigas.

Yes, you can also install a bullet guide and still use the saiga mags if you set the BG back a bit. They will fit and fuction.

Cokebottle
04-24-2010, 10:39 AM
Yes, you can also install a bullet guide and still use the saiga mags if you set the BG back a bit. They will fit and fuction.
Yup.
The whole issue with 922(r) that Mr Felony suggested was in running pre-ban 30 rounders. Mag capacity over 10rds renders the gun "non sporting" and triggers 922(r).

CSACANNONEER
04-24-2010, 10:42 AM
Whoops, I ment a +10 round mag. Again, no modification needs to be done to the rifle to get +10 round mags to work properly. I see it the same as being able to put a 15 round single stack AK mag in a single stack rifle.

CSACANNONEER
04-24-2010, 10:44 AM
Yup.
The whole issue with 922(r) that Mr Felony suggested was in running pre-ban 30 rounders. Mag capacity over 10rds renders the gun "non sporting" and triggers 922(r).

But, if you don't have to modify the rifle in any way to accept the +10 round mags, you are not manufacturing anything. Therefore, 922(r) should not be an issue.

SJgunguy24
04-24-2010, 11:05 AM
But, if you don't have to modify the rifle in any way to accept the +10 round mags, you are not manufacturing anything. Therefore, 922(r) should not be an issue.

Yes and no, 922r is an import law. If that gun is modified in anyway (including a 10+ round mag) from the imported condition then it must be 922r compliant. Some say just installing a bullet guide is enough to trigger 922r issues. It's so easy to comply in either configuration there shouldn't be an issue but some people can't be helped no matter how hard we try.

Cokebottle
04-24-2010, 11:14 AM
Yes and no, 922r is an import law. If that gun is modified in anyway (including a 10+ round mag) from the imported condition then it must be 922r compliant. Some say just installing a bullet guide is enough to trigger 922r issues. It's so easy to comply in either configuration there shouldn't be an issue but some people can't be helped no matter how hard we try.
Adding the low probability that a private citizen is going to have their gun checked for 922(r) compliance, which would require at a minimum, a complete field strip, and if not finding enough domestic parts there, complete disassembly of the FCG to find the "USA" stampings.

And even then, if the owner has taken a foreign barrel and welded a muzzle device to it, that barrel becomes a US-made part... even thought it may still carry the original Izmash markings.


IMHO, yes... we need to be legal, but in practice, 922(r) is not much different from the high-cap ban... it's not completely unenforceable, but it's not practical and is more likely to be used to create add-on charges to a bigger case when it comes to "Joe Schmoe".
A business selling non-compliant guns? Absolutely... that's a big enough fish with enough quantity (and possibly pockets) to make it worth the time to the BATF.

CSACANNONEER
04-24-2010, 11:17 AM
Yes and no, 922r is an import law. If that gun is modified in anyway (including a 10+ round mag) from the imported condition then it must be 922r compliant. Some say just installing a bullet guide is enough to trigger 922r issues. It's so easy to comply in either configuration there shouldn't be an issue but some people can't be helped no matter how hard we try.

I'm not talking about installing a bullet guide. I'm talking about being able to use +10 round mags made for STOCK Saigas. They are made from AK mags but, no modification of the rifle is required for them to work.

SJgunguy24
04-24-2010, 11:29 AM
I'm not talking about installing a bullet guide. I'm talking about being able to use +10 round mags made for STOCK Saigas. They are made from AK mags but, no modification of the rifle is required for them to work.

I understand that, but by simply using a 10+ round mag in an unmodified gun takes it out of a sporting configuration.

Cokebottle
04-24-2010, 11:31 AM
I'm not talking about installing a bullet guide. I'm talking about being able to use +10 round mags made for STOCK Saigas. They are made from AK mags but, no modification of the rifle is required for them to work.
Stock Saiga requires either [the bullet guide and a slight mod to the mag catch], or [modification to the magazine itself] to run the OTC AK magazines.

But with or without modification, running 10+ magazines triggers 922(r) and would be illegal on the stock Saiga.

The Saiga CAN be modified to accept AK magazines and still not trigger 922(r), so long as you stick with 10rd magazines.

Crawfish141
04-24-2010, 12:58 PM
What web sights are good for getting Saiga conversion parts? I want to deck it out in a more traditional style, (wood stock and hand guards, bayonet lug et cetera).

SJgunguy24
04-24-2010, 1:07 PM
What web sights are good for getting Saiga conversion parts? I want to deck it out in a more traditional style, (wood stock and hand guards, bayonet lug et cetera).

If thats the way you want to go thats gonna run you more then 700$. Surplus wood is easy but the AK style gas block and front sight will run you some cash.

Crawfish141
04-24-2010, 1:56 PM
What about just buying a Romanian G parts kit and cannibalizeing it?

karl9422
04-24-2010, 3:10 PM
you can do that bust still meed a hand gaurd retainer

they have both bolt on and press on can get up there is price though
http://www.dinzagarms.com/saiga_762x39/saiga_762x39.html

thsi is the cheapest place i found to get to get wood
https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/cPath/21_79/products_id/1208

here are a few gas tube options
https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/cPath/21_88/products_id/1358

https://www.apexgunparts.com/product_info.php/cPath/21_87/products_id/1258

but with this you have to worry abbout 922r. with a tapco trigger your up to 3 so you can at a gas piston to get to 4.

Cobrafreak
04-24-2010, 3:17 PM
Go Saiga all the way. They are built in the same factory that makes AK's for the Russian Military, so they are made correct. I never even fired mine in the stock configuration. I had pre-ordered all the conversion stuff ahead of time and the day I took it home is the day I dismantled it and put it back together. It is very accurate for an AK too. Here is a picture of my featureless build with my home made grip wrap on. (can't wait till the stupid law changes so I can have a real pistol grip without a BB)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d37/jperickson2001/Unnamed.jpg

Cokebottle
04-24-2010, 3:18 PM
but with this you have to worry abbout 922r. with a tapco trigger your up to 3 so you can at a gas piston to get to 4.
Also, keep in mind that by adding a pistol grip, you are adding a "counted" part (raising the Saiga's count from 14 to 15). If the added pistol grip is imported, then something else needs to be changed, and using imported mags and wood, there's nothing left but the pistol grip and barrel.

karl9422
04-24-2010, 3:30 PM
did not even think about the pistol grip is there a place that makes us made wood grips?

cant you also just replace the followers in the mag to get one us part?

just to add i have a saiga and will be converting it. already did the s12 and have to say the trigger is night and day. its woth it just to convert it for the trigger.

Cokebottle
04-24-2010, 3:35 PM
did not even think about the pistol grip is there a place that makes us made wood grips?
Not sure about wood... you could always make your own.
I'm sure I've seen a few domestic brown/red plastic that look like the original Bakelite. Of course, though Tapco offers a bunch of Bubba abortions for AKs, their SAW grip isn't bad.
cant you also just replace the followers in the mag to get one us part?
Sure, same for the floorplates, but I'm not sure that domestic followers and plates will fit the import bodies.

karl9422
04-24-2010, 3:43 PM
i have a saw grip on my s12 and its ok bit i think i would rather of had the hogue grip now. i just picked one up for the ar build i doing and it is so much nicer i think.

Cokebottle
04-24-2010, 3:47 PM
i have a saw grip on my s12 and its ok bit i think i would rather of had the hogue grip now. i just picked one up for the ar build i doing and it is so much nicer i think.
Plenty of options for the AR.

I really like the CAA version of the MAID with the interchangeable front and backstrap. Plastic shell, but actual rubber grip surfaces....

http://personal.linkline.com/rlockyer/XD9/CGLWR3.JPG

Crawfish141
04-24-2010, 3:48 PM
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/8928/akm70b1oe6.jpg

What about Yugo M70's, are they any good? If so where is a cheep place to buy one?

I really like the aesthetics of them.

CSACANNONEER
04-24-2010, 3:58 PM
Crawfish,

You might want to consider just building your own AK from a flat or a NDS receiver. Have you thought about buying a kit, some US made parts, rivets, flat or receiver, etc. and attending a build party. You should be able to have a completely built rifle (from a flat) in a two day weekend. Less if you stat with a complete receiver.

karl9422
04-24-2010, 4:17 PM
i dont think you will realy get a cheap ak other than building one yourself or a saiga conversion. even the wasr i seen where in the 500 range, out the door its almost 600 and some of them have problems. i not sure i would chance spend that much hoping you get an ok one.

SJgunguy24
04-24-2010, 6:22 PM
did not even think about the pistol grip is there a place that makes us made wood grips?

cant you also just replace the followers in the mag to get one us part?

just to add i have a saiga and will be converting it. already did the s12 and have to say the trigger is night and day. its woth it just to convert it for the trigger.

USA AK wood is available, expensive but really nice stuff from what I've seen.
http://www.ironwooddesigns.com/

416stroker
04-24-2010, 6:56 PM
Id order a vepr from Robinson Armament

Crawfish141
04-25-2010, 2:34 AM
http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/rifles/ak-47-and-rpk-rifles/p/polish-ak47-1960-model,-7-62x39,-w-milled-receiver-and-correct-type-1-bayonet-backordered-/cPath/209_214/products_id/4082

How are these? They look nice.

Z ME FLY
04-25-2010, 5:34 AM
you can skip the milled aks if you want. It's nice but not a need to have. Stamped are cheaper so you aren't going to spend your budget.

J&G won't ship to CA. You figure the $700 plus shipping then the middle man services depending on what you do and then shipping from him to your ffl here plus the transfer charge. IDK looking at another $150 min on top of the 700.