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View Full Version : has anyone build up a vulcan 308 yet?


220RR
02-26-2006, 2:23 PM
any problems other than the mag grinding issue and holes not lining up.anyone happy with theirs

EBWhite
02-26-2006, 11:15 PM
The holes lining up are not the problem. The mag hitting the upper and not allowing them to line up in the rear is the problem. I recommend filing the upper where the mag hits and also filing the mags too. This would keep the upper from getting chewed up and the mag from hitting.

220RR
03-05-2006, 4:51 PM
hey ebwhite you build the vulcan 308 yet

shopkeep
03-05-2006, 5:06 PM
The holes lining up are not the problem. The mag hitting the upper and not allowing them to line up in the rear is the problem. I recommend filing the upper where the mag hits and also filing the mags too. This would keep the upper from getting chewed up and the mag from hitting.

The best mags to use with the Armalite AR-10 uppers on the Vulcan .308s are M-14 mags. Just use a dremal to cut a hole in the side of the mag for the catch and they work like a charm. Springfield 10 rounders are relatively cheap and feed very good.

BTW, don't you just LOVE the funky styling of the Vulcan .308 like the stylish built in trigger guard? That trigger guard is _HUGE_!

EBWhite
03-05-2006, 6:25 PM
Yes shop, that trigger gaurd is pretty "gay"

Anyways, im thinking of taking a dremil and rounding the edges on the whole receiver the thing has too many sharpe lines...Then maybe sending it to armalite and have them recoat it the same color as their uppers...


Did you have to do any grinding off the lug on the back off the m14 magazine??
How did you know where to cut the hole for the mag catch? Any loading issues while firing?

shopkeep
03-05-2006, 8:23 PM
Did you have to do any grinding off the lug on the back off the m14 magazine??
How did you know where to cut the hole for the mag catch? Any loading issues while firing?

It wasn't my rifle (although I'll certainly be building one myself soon, AR-10s are VERY cool). He said it put the mag into the well of the stripped reciever and marked where the latch hit. Then he matched that up with the latch and marked it off. After that he used a dremal to cut the hole. I don't think he did anything else to the mag other than that.

He said it loaded fine. I'll be trying it soon enough myself though.

Mugwump
03-07-2006, 10:45 PM
I recently saw one of these receivers with the magazine pinned in and gooped up with a very stiff black material, as well as the magazine floorplate welded on. Has anyone attempted to replace the magazine yet?

shopkeep
03-07-2006, 10:49 PM
UPDATE: M-14 mags are the key. You don't have to alter the back of the mag, the fit is nice. Simply insert the mag into the stripped receiver and use a permanent ink marker to mark where the latch hits it. Then use a dremal to cut out the marked area. After that you just install Armalite AR-10 uppers and it works fine... now all I have to do is save up enough for an AR-10 upper :)!

EBWhite
03-07-2006, 10:58 PM
Shop, how do i know how far to stick the magazine in so i cut the correct placeon the m14 mag? Should the front of the mag be flush with the top of the receiver?

grammaton76
03-08-2006, 1:06 AM
Unless I'm mistaken about what you're doing, sounds like you'd be stuck using 10rd M-14 mags if you're having to modify it to make it fit. Remember, modding the mag constitutes manufacturing a new "hi-cap" magazine. :/

EBWhite
03-08-2006, 2:04 AM
You might have a point grammaton. But in the end, they are personally owned magazines, legal preban and i and whoever else can do what they want with their personal property. Good luck having a DA prove when they were modified

grammaton76
03-08-2006, 2:19 AM
You might have a point grammaton. But in the end, they are personally owned magazines, legal preban and i and whoever else can do what they want with their personal property. Good luck having a DA prove when they were modified

Ooo. Now there's a question - back in 1999, were there any AR-10-oids which required the same procedure to make them work? If so, eh, I think you're just remembering something you did 6 years ago...

EBWhite
03-08-2006, 2:29 AM
I'm sure someone modified for use in an armalite ar-10 before 99...

50BMGBOB
03-08-2006, 3:50 AM
Unless I'm mistaken about what you're doing, sounds like you'd be stuck using 10rd M-14 mags if you're having to modify it to make it fit. Remember, modding the mag constitutes manufacturing a new "hi-cap" magazine. :/
If it can still be used in an M14 then it is legal. Cutting an extra hole in the side won't stop it from working in it's original form. Modifying it to where it won't work in an M14 is not allowed.

xenophobe
03-08-2006, 7:50 AM
My gunsmith said.... about 3 hours at 325 degrees. ;)


I recently saw one of these receivers with the magazine pinned in and gooped up with a very stiff black material, as well as the magazine floorplate welded on. Has anyone attempted to replace the magazine yet?

shopkeep
03-08-2006, 11:56 AM
Shop, how do i know how far to stick the magazine in so i cut the correct placeon the m14 mag? Should the front of the mag be flush with the top of the receiver?

Personally I like to just keep it flush with the upper reciever

220RR
03-10-2006, 8:59 PM
My gunsmith said.... about 3 hours at 325 degrees. ;)



yummy cooked lowers.any other methods?

shopkeep
03-10-2006, 9:21 PM
yummy cooked lowers.any other methods?

Ummm.. why not just buy them stripped? That's what I did. A stripped HAR-25 reciever is just another off-list lower afterall :D!

220RR
03-10-2006, 9:41 PM
vulcan wouldnt ship it without the mag

50BMGBOB
03-10-2006, 10:55 PM
I got an HAR25 complete lower less the pistol grip shipped here no problem.

EBWhite
03-10-2006, 11:03 PM
I got my stripped hesse shipped too with a mag..call back and tell him you saw it on the internet for 199, stripped and you want one...as long as you know about the stuff, they will sell you it

Mugwump
03-11-2006, 12:17 AM
I picked one up recently, one of the roughest machine jobs I've ever seen on a lower. Was this anyone else's experience, or did I get the crap of the crop?

Obviously this is the only game in town and won't affect the functionionality, but I'm just amazed by how crude the finish was overall, especially when you compare to any other lower out there.

Actually, I have a couple of .223 vulcan receivers and their finish is pretty good.

220RR
03-11-2006, 11:35 AM
mine looked okay,but this time they put some real glue.not like the .223

EBWhite
03-11-2006, 12:28 PM
Mup---

Mine is decent. Some machine finsh marks but overall i would rate is a little high than acceptable on finish and machining. I have seen worse though. Maybe I'm a lucky duck/

Mnort10x
03-11-2006, 8:58 PM
My gunsmith said.... about 3 hours at 325 degrees. ;)

Pulled the follower out and I'm looking into the mag on mine and there is about 1/4" of a headless screw, looks like 10-24 thread, that is all the way through the front of the mag well, ground flush in front and finished black. :confused: Drill it and use a screw extractor? Before or after baking @ 325°?

EBWhite
03-11-2006, 9:08 PM
****, i did not see that screw. I took a buddy over to San Fernando today and he bought a complete Hesse with pinned and siliconed mag. They are using RTV ultra black silicone, very easy to remove :-)

xenophobe
03-11-2006, 9:12 PM
Hmm... perhaps you should talk to our gunsmith when he returns on tuesday. Sorry, I don't have a better answer.

220RR
03-12-2006, 10:20 AM
very easy to remove :-)[/QUOTE]



how easy

Mnort10x
03-12-2006, 9:42 PM
very easy to remove :-)



how easy[/QUOTE]

Took a small scraping of Black Stuff from around the mag and placed it in the oven @ 325 for hours but this "Glue" did not soften like RTV or Liquid Plastic Epoxy. I think it is going to take a higher temperature. Also I see this "Glue" inside mag release button, might not soften and may have to be drilled out as well. I Haven't been brave enough to roast the receiver yet. Need to do some research, anyone know how to get in touch with Hesse? Would like to ask them what brand of epoxy they used to check max temperature to soften. Above 450 degrees and I'm worried about the metal, any ideas? I have a Springfield 10 round mag that wants a new home, but I don't want a lump of molten aluminum to do it, that would be bad! (I know it won't melt but, an annealing finance my stove is not.:D ) Plan to reattach new mag with low temp epoxy after replacing. What was Hesse thinking?
Welded bottom on mag, 10 ton epoxy, screw pinned mag, boy thats overkill.

SI-guru
03-12-2006, 10:04 PM
Anyone tried acetone yet ? :rolleyes:

C.G.
03-12-2006, 10:07 PM
how easy

Took a small scraping of Black Stuff from around the mag and placed it in the oven @ 325 for hours but this "Glue" did not soften like RTV or Liquid Plastic Epoxy. I think it is going to take a higher temperature. Also I see this "Glue" inside mag release button, might not soften and may have to be drilled out as well. I Haven't been brave enough to roast the receiver yet. Need to do some research, anyone know how to get in touch with Hesse? Would like to ask them what brand of epoxy they used to check max temperature to soften. Above 450 degrees and I'm worried about the metal, any ideas? I have a Springfield 10 round mag that wants a new home, but I don't want a lump of molten aluminum to do it, that would be bad! (I know it won't melt but, an annealing finance my stove is not.:D ) Plan to reattach new mag with low temp epoxy after replacing. What was Hesse thinking?
Welded bottom on mag, 10 ton epoxy, screw pinned mag, boy thats overkill.[/quote]


Vulcan
http://www.vulcanarmament.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/catalog.html&setup=#AGENTID&cart_id=

220RR
03-13-2006, 5:21 PM
hmm how about a torch

shopkeep
03-13-2006, 5:28 PM
I purchased my Vulcan .308 HAR-25 as a stripped lower. Why have so many been sold with pinned mags when it is completely lawful to sell them stripped?

So far I've discovered that M-14 mags are the key.

Step #1 pin the upper to the lower reciever (BE SURE flash hider and pistol grip are uninstalled!!!) and push the m-14 magazine all the way into the magwell WITHOUT the mag catch installed.

Step #2 Test cycle the magazine with snap-caps or other dummy shells until it cycles. Use some friction tape to keep the mag where its at. Continue to test cycle. Now, using a permenant marker, mark the area THROUGH the mag catch.

Step #3 Next use a dremal to cut out the section you marked previously. Install mag catch and use a sporting conversions or Home Depot fixed mag kit to fix in the magazine.

Step #4 Install buttstock, pistol grip, and flash hider.

Step #5 Enjoy your Cali-legal AR-10 :D!

220RR
03-13-2006, 5:38 PM
did you shoot yours yet shopkeep

shopkeep
03-13-2006, 5:51 PM
did you shoot yours yet shopkeep

Haven't finished building it. One of the willing FFLs has done a lot of fitting and testing with these. I figured out myself how to get the mags to work. It wasn't really that much "figuring out though" as it was simply looking at Armalite's website and catalog and noticing not only are they selling M-14 magazines but they continually state "Our rifles use modified M-14 magazines". It was fairly clear that if a lower accepted an AR-10 upper it would therefore accept modified M-14 mags just like the Armalite lower.

SI-guru
03-13-2006, 6:16 PM
****, i did not see that screw. I took a buddy over to San Fernando today and he bought a complete Hesse with pinned and siliconed mag. They are using RTV ultra black silicone, very easy to remove :-)

Actually, if they are indeed RTV silicone, they are both heat and solvent resistant. I am really curious on your method now.

220RR
03-13-2006, 8:12 PM
took my har25 home today and took the mag catch off and didnt see any roll pin.freakin glue is tough

D.T. Rouland
03-13-2006, 8:13 PM
Vice, small sharp screwdriver, tiny hammer. Took maybe 15 minutes for the V15, don't know if the system is similar for the HAR 25s.

C.G.
03-13-2006, 8:13 PM
took my har25 home today and took the mag catch off and didnt see any roll pin.freakin glue is tough

Did you bang on the mag release?

220RR
03-13-2006, 8:30 PM
yup with a pen top

220RR
03-14-2006, 1:27 AM
Pulled the follower out and I'm looking into the mag on mine and there is about 1/4" of a headless screw, looks like 10-24 thread, that is all the way through the front of the mag well, ground flush in front and finished black. :confused: Drill it and use a screw extractor? Before or after baking @ 325°?


Mnort10x your right.i was messing with the lower and got all the glue off but still couldnt get the mag out.then i notice the front of the magwell spray paint coming off and that is where vulcan pinned the mag then grinded off the head.other than the spray paint finish in the front the rest is cool.im gonna drill out the screw when i get home from work.no need to bake the glue comes out easy.F**ing ghetto A** vulcan.

kick Z tail out
03-14-2006, 5:39 AM
I too have a HAR-25 that I'm waiting (for someone else to make the mistakes) so I can build it. ;)


Mine came with a DPMS "SR-25" mag.

50BMGBOB
03-14-2006, 2:08 PM
Has anyone just ordered the 10 round mag from Armilite? That way the slot is already cut and it has the follower that works their bolt stop.

SI-guru
03-14-2006, 2:18 PM
Has anyone just ordered the 10 round mag from Armilite? That way the slot is already cut and it has the follower that works their bolt stop.

Is it really a good thing to have a bolt stop if the rifle is going to be a fixed mag config ?

shopkeep
03-14-2006, 2:56 PM
screw it, I'm going to order an AR-10 mag from Armalite and build one to show you guys how it's done.

Mnort10x
03-14-2006, 3:08 PM
Mnort10x your right.i was messing with the lower and got all the glue off but still couldnt get the mag out.then i notice the front of the magwell spray paint coming off and that is where vulcan pinned the mag then grinded off the head.other than the spray paint finish in the front the rest is cool.im gonna drill out the screw when i get home from work.no need to bake the glue comes out easy.F**ing ghetto A** vulcan.


I'm going to photograph my work on this lower and post it. I plan to drill out the screw/pin and replace it with a flush Allen set screw and blue loctite. This will definitely require a "Tool" to remove it. That way I'll be able to remain legal retaining a fixed magazine. I have an idea for the new magazine that would allow the mag release to be left fully functional allowing the magazine to drop but still be legal.:D I'll photo it and let everyone check it out.

C.G.
03-14-2006, 3:23 PM
screw it, I'm going to order an AR-10 mag from Armalite and build one to show you guys how it's done.

Got you beat; one is on the way. Too bad it isn't the latest version.

Mnort10x
03-14-2006, 11:52 PM
I'm going to photograph my work on this lower and post it. I plan to drill out the screw/pin and replace it with a flush Allen set screw and blue loctite. This will definitely require a "Tool" to remove it. That way I'll be able to remain legal retaining a fixed magazine. I have an idea for the new magazine that would allow the mag release to be left fully functional allowing the magazine to drop but still be legal.:D I'll photo it and let everyone check it out.

This is what I did tonight. I drilled out and removed the screw/pin, real easy. Then I tapped the mag release with a brass screw and backed it out. Now I'm "Roasting" @ 325 until golden brown. :D I'll take some photos after the mags out. Then I've got a trick up my sleeve. (No fair peeking...)

Mnort10x
03-15-2006, 12:03 AM
Did you bang on the mag release?

The mag release came out real easy as well. Here are some photos.

Mnort10x
03-15-2006, 12:34 AM
This is what I did tonight. I drilled out and removed the screw/pin, real easy. Then I tapped the mag release with a brass screw and backed it out. Now I'm "Roasting" @ 325 until golden brown. :D I'll take some photos after the mags out. Then I've got a trick up my sleeve. (No fair peeking...)


30 minutes later I took it out and went to the vice. I took two 10" long 1/2" aluminum rods and clamped them into the vice about 2" apart and sticking out the top of the vice about 6". I then inserted a small screwdriver through the front take-down holes and using the screw driver as a handle and holding onto the back of the receiver with a pot holder, pushed into the base of the mag and pushed it through with no problem. Paint peeled from inside magazine. I'll want to strip and refinish receiver. Anyone got any suggestions? Duracoat?

EBWhite
03-15-2006, 12:43 AM
Cool..

I tried ordering an armalite mag a few weeks ago but they were out of stock...make sure your getting only style, they are coming up with a new design and you will need the old style..

the armalite bolt catch works fits on the hesse

220RR
03-15-2006, 6:40 PM
Mnort10x you the man.where did you get the set screw from?we should have a cali 308 section just like the cali 223 section

C.G.
03-15-2006, 6:47 PM
Mnort10x you the man.where did you get the set screw from?we should have a cali 308 section just like the cali 223 section

Only specialty stores like OSH carry them, 10 x 32 x 1 set screw.:)

C.G.
03-15-2006, 6:48 PM
Cool..

I tried ordering an armalite mag a few weeks ago but they were out of stock...make sure your getting only style, they are coming up with a new design and you will need the old style..

the armalite bolt catch works fits on the hesse

As far as I know the new design will fit as well, but no absolute word when they are coming out (last I heard, April).

220RR
03-15-2006, 6:54 PM
thanks cg........

Mnort10x
03-15-2006, 9:30 PM
Mnort10x you the man.where did you get the set screw from?we should have a cali 308 section just like the cali 223 section

Set screw should be about 3/4" long but that was all I had in my tool box. OSH and 50 cents.

Tonight I am soaking the mag in citrus striper to soften the epoxy. The paint on the receiver came off with the glue inside the mag well. I was told it was hard anodized, yea right. Now I've got options SR25, AR10 Armalite, DPMS, M14 mags were to start? Best parts? Which Upper? Any ideas welcomed. I'm thinking of stripping the whole thing and refinishing it before I'm done. Anyone with a favorite finish?

Still working on my "working mag release" idea. We'll need the weekend to do it and will photograph when done.

C.G.
03-15-2006, 9:52 PM
Set screw should be about 3/4" long but that was all I had in my tool box. OSH and 50 cents.

Tonight I am soaking the mag in citrus striper to soften the epoxy. The paint on the receiver came off with the glue inside the mag well. I was told it was hard anodized, yea right. Now I've got options SR25, AR10 Armalite, DPMS, M14 mags were to start? Best parts? Which Upper? Any ideas welcomed. I'm thinking of stripping the whole thing and refinishing it before I'm done. Anyone with a favorite finish?

Still working on my "working mag release" idea. We'll need the weekend to do it and will photograph when done.

I should have my AR-10A4 20" chrome-lined upper Monday. Decided to go flat-top, thinking that I would use it for longer ranges and use a scope with BUIS. I almost went with the 24" but I already have the Grendel in that length and the consensus on ARF.com is that 22" is actually optimal.
The 20" should be my work horse, if I decide to get something for paper punching, I'll probably will just build that in 22."
Will report when all the parts arrive and I"ll slap it together.

Mnort10x
03-15-2006, 11:31 PM
So here is my workable mag release idea… I looked at were the pin-screw hole was in the mag after I removed it from the lower. I thought that if I had a channel cut about 7/8” long, starting at the hole back up to the top of the magazine, then the set screw would still captivate the magazine into the lower. This would allow the mag release to be used to drop the magazine and pull it out that 7/8” to a “Safer” location. I will need to shorten the set screw and as you see in the photo, some yellow duck tape on the side of the magazine makes it very friendly for Range Officers on a firing range. What do you think of my photos?

EBWhite
03-15-2006, 11:36 PM
I would go with the Armalite 20" upper. Stick with using an armalite upper.

Also, m14 mags will do you fine since they are cheap. Otherwise, at 30 bucks a mag, armalites look like the easy route...

Mnort10x
03-16-2006, 12:58 AM
So here is my workable mag release idea… I looked at were the pin-screw hole was in the mag after I removed it from the lower. I thought that if I had a channel cut about 7/8” long, starting at the hole back up to the top of the magazine, then the set screw would still captivate the magazine into the lower. This would allow the mag release to be used to drop the magazine and pull it out that 7/8” to a “Safer” location. I will need to shorten the set screw and as you see in the photo, some yellow duck tape on the side of the magazine makes it very friendly for Range Officers on a firing range. What do you think of my photos?

One other thought... Anyone have an opinion as to the legality of this modification? Will it pass as a non-detachable magazine?

Mnort10x
03-19-2006, 2:28 PM
I cleaned up the DPMS mag that came with the Hesse lower and am using it for now to test this build. I finished the set screw and blue loctited it back into position. Photos are close-ups to give everyone a better look. I think that if it is legal (please, I'd like to hear opinions) to do this that by dropping the magazine out of battery, swinging up and closing of the uppers will work without damaging them. The problem with grinding down the top and face of the magazines is that this damages the design of the magazine and can screw up stripping rounds. I've noticed on mine that the follower gets and messed up and jams sometimes.

Remember, the original design of all magazines is to be used by inserting them into an assembled rifle. The problem of gluing them in place should seem obvious to all.

Because of the needed clearance to avoid hitting the follower, the length of the set screw will have to be fitted to each lower. I rough cut mine to about 5/8" long, fitted it through trial and error and then chucked it into my drill press and filed off about 5 threads (see photo) I have about 11 threads of engagement into the lower receiver (thread of screw is 10-32)
I have tested it with rounds and found that everything works well.

I plan to test using this "junked" DPMS mag and when I get the new Armalite mag I ordered, set it up this way.

If members think that I am going down the wrong road with this one, please let me and other know.

220RR
03-19-2006, 5:37 PM
looking good

220RR
03-29-2006, 8:56 PM
any updates

Mnort10x
03-31-2006, 9:42 PM
So here goes... I received my lower parts the other day. I ordered from Armalite all their parts and started to assemble. I have found out that the Armalite magazine is loose in the Hesse mag well. I agree with Vulcan that the DPMS magazines fit their lowers the best. For now I am looking at the Armalite follower as a replacement for the DPMS follower and using this "Hybrid" magazine in my final build. The bolt stop won't work without working on it. I don't have my upper yet and when I do (end of next week) I'll have all the parts. I'll let everyone know and photograph will be posted at that time. I'm going to work on the magazine this weekend.

Here is a few things that I think need to be pointed out.

1) Hesse machined the lowers for the DPMS Mags.
2) Armalite pivot and take-down pins for AR10 work.
3) Buffer & spring needs to be AR10 grade. (heavier weight)
4) Bolt stop has to be AR10 grade. (bolt lock on last round, stop needs pin added to engage mag follower.)
5) Hammer for AR10 grade has A notch at the top. (?)

All other parts (detents, selector, grip, springs, pins, trigger, etc.) can be generic AR15 type.

I am still looking at getting a 2 stage trigger but will wait until I get the upper. For now the trigger is stock with only new hammer installed and seems to be about 6lbs. This will work for function testing for now.

For now here's a photo to keep everyones interest up.

;)

SI-guru
03-31-2006, 10:10 PM
Mnort10x,
Great info. Sorry to ask again, if this is going to be a pinned mag rifle, do you really want to have the bolt stop working ? Or do you just want to keep the bolt stop for looks ?

C.G.
03-31-2006, 10:14 PM
So here goes... I received my lower parts the other day. I ordered from Armalite all their parts and started to assemble. I have found out that the Armalite magazine is loose in the Hesse mag well. I agree with Vulcan that the DPMS magazines fit their lowers the best. For now I am looking at the Armalite follower as a replacement for the DPMS follower and using this "Hybrid" magazine in my final build. The bolt stop won't work without working on it. I don't have my upper yet and when I do (end of next week) I'll have all the parts. I'll let everyone know and photograph will be posted at that time. I'm going to work on the magazine this weekend.

Here is a few things that I think need to be pointed out.

1) Hesse machined the lowers for the DPMS Mags.
2) Armalite pivot and take-down pins for AR10 work.
3) Buffer spring needs to be AR10 grade. (heavier weight)
4) Bolt stop has to be AR10 grade.
5) Hammer for AR10 grade has A notch at the top. (?)

All other parts (detents, selector, grip, springs, pins, trigger, etc.) can be generic AR15 type.

I am still looking at getting a 2 stage trigger but will wait until I get the upper. For now the trigger is stock with only new hammer installed and seems to be about 6lbs. This will work for function testing for now.

For now here's a photo to keep everyones interest up.

;)

You left out that the buffer, not just the buffer spring needs to be AR-10 specific, too.

Mnort10x
03-31-2006, 11:01 PM
You left out that the buffer, not just the buffer spring needs to be AR-10 specific, too.

You are correct! :D Buffer and spring are separate but was thinking of them as one purchase. Need to make sure to order AR10 grade. The tube, stock, buffer stop detent/spring are standard A2.

Regarding the question about the working bolt stop?... I think that it will need to be worked as well as the magazine to function properly, I'm keeping all my options open for now. I will know better when the upper comes.

SI-guru
03-31-2006, 11:08 PM
Regarding the question about the working bolt stop?... I think that it will need to be worked as well as the magazine to function properly, I'm keeping all my options open for now. I will know better when the upper comes.

My point is with the bolt locked, you can't shotgun the upper and reload.

C.G.
04-01-2006, 1:02 AM
I prefer to know that the last round is spend; doen't take very long to disangage the bolt.

Mnort10x
04-20-2006, 10:56 PM
Anyone get theirs together yet? I'm still waiting for my upper. Suppose to be shipped first of next week. Can't wait. Hope it all works. Any more thoughts on which magazine is best? I'm still planing on the DPMS but have an Armalite and a M14 to play with when I finally get the upper on. I'll still post photos when it's done. A range report as well will follow. Hope all of you have gotten your LPK by now. Armalite was quite fast when I ordered from them. Thought they would be slow, but at the time the only part they were missing was their 2 stage trigger and I figured I'd hold off on that until I got this thing shooting.

Mnort10x
04-28-2006, 12:06 AM
Well after 4+ weeks I finely got my upper today. I opened the box from Model 1 Sales and was looking at my new 26" Krieger stainless steel, thing of beauty.:D

Mounted my sights, ground a little off the mag slot for the slide stop to clear the receiver better, and CLP everything. Seems to be almost ready for the range. I am planing to put a adjustable handstop on the fiberglass handguard. (Anyone know how well the Armalite handguard will mill a channel for the handstop nut?, Will the cut in the tube weaken it too much?)

I'm going to go with the original DPMS magazine for the moment, see how it functions at the range.

I have a Springfield Government 30mm scope and Burris tactical rings for accuracy test as well as the aperture sight so well see what this baby is made of.

One problem I did have to start with... cheap aluminum detent pin in the front, couldn't remove front take down pin. Tapped it with a brass punch and the dam thing peened over and locked in. I had to pound it out and then the detent was locked into the action. I had to drill it out. Next time I'll make sure it doesn't happen again.

Be careful this doesn't happen to you.

Here are some photos I promised to post.

C.G.
04-28-2006, 3:49 AM
Well after 4+ weeks I finely got my upper today. I opened the box from Model 1 Sales and was looking at my new 26" Krieger stainless steel, thing of beauty.:D

Mounted my sights, ground a little off the mag slot for the slide stop to clear the receiver better, and CLP everything. Seems to be almost ready for the range. I am planing to put a adjustable handstop on the fiberglass handguard. (Anyone know how well the Armalite handguard will mill a channel for the handstop nut?, Will the cut in the tube weaken it too much?)

I'm going to go with the original DPMS magazine for the moment, see how it functions at the range.

I have a Springfield Government 30mm scope and Burris tactical rings for accuracy test as well as the aperture sight so well see what this baby is made of.

One problem I did have to start with... cheap aluminum detent pin in the front, couldn't remove front take down pin. Tapped it with a brass punch and the dam thing peened over and locked in. I had to pound it out and then the detent was locked into the action. I had to drill it out. Next time I'll make sure it doesn't happen again.

Be careful this doesn't happen to you.

Here are some photos I promised to post.

Good on you! You beat everybody to get the first one built and I look forward to hearing the range report. I think my LPK may have arrived finally, but, of course, I am out of the country for couple of weeks.

CTT2
04-28-2006, 5:27 AM
Where did you get the stripped lower from? Found many places with uppers but no lowers. Stupid question but I had to ask, is the stock on the same as a regular AR15? If so can you use a M4 style stock?

JPN6336
04-28-2006, 5:59 PM
Where did you get the stripped lower from? Found many places with uppers but no lowers. Stupid question but I had to ask, is the stock on the same as a regular AR15? If so can you use a M4 style stock?

Vulcan Armament has the lowers for $199 but it's not on the site.

gidddy169
04-28-2006, 6:27 PM
Here are a few pics of my build got the bolt and charging handle today. I couldn't stand the wait any longer so I took the scope and rings off my SU16 to mount on the HAR25. I had to modify the Armalite bolt catch as you can see in the first pic but the rest of the parts went together fine. The Ar10 magazine holds the bolt automatically when hand cycled but we will see what it does hopefully tomorrow when I go to the range. Here are a few pics.

The modified Armalite bolt catch
http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.b5f5375914.jpg (http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?b5f5375914.jpg)

With the SU16
http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.d4b3f296d2.jpg (http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?d4b3f296d2.jpg)

And a closeup of the upper and lower.
http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.ab7007db00.jpg (http://img3.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?ab7007db00.jpg)

Mnort10x Have you been able to get out to the range and shoot? By the way your rifle looks great.

Mnort10x
04-29-2006, 5:10 PM
Well after 4+ weeks I finely got my upper today. I opened the box from Model 1 Sales and was looking at my new 26" Krieger stainless steel, thing of beauty.:D

Mounted my sights, ground a little off the mag slot for the slide stop to clear the receiver better, and CLP everything. Seems to be almost ready for the range. I am planing to put a adjustable handstop on the fiberglass handguard. (Anyone know how well the Armalite handguard will mill a channel for the handstop nut?, Will the cut in the tube weaken it too much?)

I'm going to go with the original DPMS magazine for the moment, see how it functions at the range.

I have a Springfield Government 30mm scope and Burris tactical rings for accuracy test as well as the aperture sight so well see what this baby is made of.

One problem I did have to start with... cheap aluminum detent pin in the front, couldn't remove front take down pin. Tapped it with a brass punch and the dam thing peened over and locked in. I had to pound it out and then the detent was locked into the action. I had to drill it out. Next time I'll make sure it doesn't happen again.

Be careful this doesn't happen to you.

Here are some photos I promised to post.


Well I took my rifle out to the range today for the first time. I posted a 25yd pistol target at 100 yds and shot from a bench using a bipod. I bore sighted the aperture sights with a Leopold magnetic boresighter and it was right on. I was cleaning between shots to brake it in. The group was great. (see photo.) Aside from the first shot which was a 9 and a flier (Thats the one I'm did :)) all the rest were 10's & X's.

I did have cycling/feeding problems from the magazine for 5 out of my 20 shots. The magazine I was using was the one that came fixed into the lower, a DPMS that was modified by Vulcan which they ground down the front lips/tabs off. If you look at some of my previous posts you'll see that I was planing to play with AR10, M1A and DPMS magazines and I see that is what I'll have to do to find the right combination that works. I'll have to study the geometry of the magazine to upper fit and function. I don't have the bolt stop working yet but all I will have to do is add a pin/set screw to the stop that extends into the magazine that will engage the follower on the last round. I'm not going to do that yet until I figure out the magazine problem.

I did find that being able to drop the magazine out of battery the 7/8" my pinned/slotted magazine allows very helpful when clearing a jam, see previous post about my working mag release. (I can't see how you guys can work safely with those non-movable pinned magazines) I was able to load my magazine through the port without opening the upper receiver. I was only loading 5 rounds and it might get hard to load a larger amount of rounds this way, but I'll let you know.

I was having problem with the bolt overriding the round in the magazine not being stripped cleanly and some time would wedge or not chamber. I think that using a complete unmodified DPMS magazine will work and I'm planning on trying that next.

I'm also going to mill a grove in the handguard for a hand stop I want to mount. I think this is ultimately going to be a shooter from what I see on paper so far. I haven't done anything special to the trigger other than moly grease bearing surfaces. Still about 5 lbs trigger pull but quite shoot-able.

Well it's time to hit the garage and get my hands dirty.

More to follow as I progress.

gidddy169
04-29-2006, 9:30 PM
Nice groups, you had better luck than me.

I too took my rifle out to the range today and had many feeding problems with the AR10 magazine. First I forgot to file down the extra material in the front of the magazine but that was the least of my worries. With the loose fit of the magazine the left round would not chamber. It would jam against the feed ramp everytime so it was essentially a single shot rifle. For the few shots that were fired at close range the accuracy seemed good though.

I spent most of the evening grinding and welding on my ar10 magazine to try and make up for the slop on the sides and front and rear.

At this point I think I may be ordering a dpms 10 rounder and trying the armalite follower in it.

On the bright side though the bolt held open on the last shot after welding and grinding on the magazine.

Also I used it without a pistol grip so I could keep the detachable magazine feature. It was definetly interesting without a pgrip but doable.

Here are a few pics of my ugly welds and the jams. If anyone has some ideas let me know.
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2700/dscf06972fl.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf06972fl.jpg)

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7770/dscf06986ai.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf06986ai.jpg)

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7468/dscf06990ma.th.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf06990ma.jpg)

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3931/dscf07010wx.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf07010wx.jpg)

Mnort10x
04-30-2006, 1:01 AM
Nice groups, you had better luck than me.

I too took my rifle out to the range today and had many feeding problems with the AR10 magazine. First I forgot to file down the extra material in the front of the magazine but that was the least of my worries. With the loose fit of the magazine the left round would not chamber. It would jam against the feed ramp everytime so it was essentially a single shot rifle. For the few shots that were fired at close range the accuracy seemed good though.

I spent most of the evening grinding and welding on my ar10 magazine to try and make up for the slop on the sides and front and rear.

At this point I think I may be ordering a dpms 10 rounder and trying the armalite follower in it.

On the bright side though the bolt held open on the last shot after welding and grinding on the magazine.

Also I used it without a pistol grip so I could keep the detachable magazine feature. It was definetly interesting without a pgrip but doable.

Here are a few pics of my ugly welds and the jams. If anyone has some ideas let me know.
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2700/dscf06972fl.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf06972fl.jpg)

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7770/dscf06986ai.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf06986ai.jpg)

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7468/dscf06990ma.th.jpg (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf06990ma.jpg)

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3931/dscf07010wx.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf07010wx.jpg)

I have a feeling that the DPMS magazine is the only game in town for this lower. I did get the follower from the Armalite into the DPMS magazine shell. I did have to file off a little edge along both sides so that it could track. I'll let you know what I get working and post this week.

Mnort10x
04-30-2006, 1:27 PM
I started to look over the new DPMS magazine and comparing it to the magazine that Vulcan ground down to fit. Vulcan was too aggressive with the fitting and just ground off the front of the magazine until they thought it fit. One thing from my first range report, the the bolt was riding over rounds, I found that the rear of the follower was not coming up properly. I made sure the spring was adjusted to raise the back, (bent it into a bit of a curve to the front, cleaned it, sprayed a dry lube inside body and on follower.

Then I found that to fit properly, very little needs to be ground off. The fingers at the from of the magazine are a little to long, I bent and hammered them down about .0010" and I broke one. The other is fine and I think one will be enough. At the front of the magazine is were it binds. The sheet metal doubles over at the front and the thickness of only one front piece on the front has to be removed. I used a cut off wheel on my Dremel and brought it down to the line I scribed in front of the magazine when it was locked in place.

These adjustments to the dpms magazine are all that I needed to do and feeding seems to be fine. I'll try out the new magazine at the range tomorrow.

More to come.

gidddy169
04-30-2006, 7:48 PM
The fit of the dpms magazine looks much better than the ar10 magazine. I will probably order one of those tonight. I have since given up for awhile on the AR10 magazine all it does is scratch the black coating off the inside of the magwell. By the way are these anodized or only coated, I beleive they are anodized correct?

Have you tested the function with the armalite follower in the dpms magazine?

50 Freak
05-01-2006, 12:50 AM
Are the AR-10 mags just modified M-14 mags?

Has anyone modified a M-14 mag to fit into the HAR-25?

Very curios. I have a bunch of M-14 mags lying around.

Mnort10x
05-01-2006, 1:41 AM
Are the AR-10 mags just modified M-14 mags?

Has anyone modified a M-14 mag to fit into the HAR-25?

Very curios. I have a bunch of M-14 mags lying around.


Yes, AR10 Mags and M-14 Mags are about the same. The difference is that the AR10 have notches like AR15 magazines for the catch and the M-14 has the lug on the end, but the bodys are the same. The HAR25 was milled for the DPMS magazine. It is the only one that fits well.

Mnort10x
05-01-2006, 8:04 PM
Well I've just finished the last item on my list. I added a little "tail" to the bolt stop to engage the DPMS follower and BOY IS THAT STEEL HARD!

I took a 3/32" cobalt bit and drilled straight through the stop were Armalite left a little extra metal that normally goes into that groove in the receiver.

I first drilled a 1/16" and then enlarged the hole. Slow cutting, real hard. Once I was through I looked at the drill and said, "Ah what the hell" and used a Dremel to cut the bit to length and green LocTite-ed it into place.
Second photo doesn't show it but you'll have to deberr and file flat the hole to keep the dimensions right otherwise the stop will bind.

Works great!

I'm too tired to drive to the range tonight, so I think I'll be able to try it on Wednesday. I'll let you know it this finishes all the adjustment.

I am feeling fairly confident that this is going to be the last of the adjustments and when I go to the range I am planing for another 20 rounds brake-in with the hope for a "problem free" shooting experience.

I'll let everyone know.

Attached are photos of the bolt stop modifications.

One more thought...

Everything I did is pretty much outlined in this thread but posted everywhere. I was thinking of creating an "all in one" post showing every step and link photos. Should I?

69Mach1
05-01-2006, 8:11 PM
"Everything I did is pretty much outlined in this thread but posted everywhere. I was thinking of creating an "all in one" post showing every step and link photos. Should I?"

Hell yes! I'm waiting for you to get it just right so I can plan my Hesse 308 build up. Thanks in advance for all of the legwork.
-69Mach1

gidddy169
05-01-2006, 9:20 PM
I like it and can't wait for a range report.

C.G.
05-01-2006, 11:00 PM
Well I took my rifle out to the range today for the first time. I posted a 25yd pistol target at 100 yds and shot from a bench using a bipod. I bore sighted the aperture sights with a Leopold magnetic boresighter and it was right on. I was cleaning between shots to brake it in. The group was great. (see photo.) Aside from the first shot which was a 9 and a flier (Thats the one I'm did :)) all the rest were 10's & X's.

I did have cycling/feeding problems from the magazine for 5 out of my 20 shots. The magazine I was using was the one that came fixed into the lower, a DPMS that was modified by Vulcan which they ground down the front lips/tabs off. If you look at some of my previous posts you'll see that I was planing to play with AR10, M1A and DPMS magazines and I see that is what I'll have to do to find the right combination that works. I'll have to study the geometry of the magazine to upper fit and function. I don't have the bolt stop working yet but all I will have to do is add a pin/set screw to the stop that extends into the magazine that will engage the follower on the last round. I'm not going to do that yet until I figure out the magazine problem.

I did find that being able to drop the magazine out of battery the 7/8" my pinned/slotted magazine allows very helpful when clearing a jam, see previous post about my working mag release. (I can't see how you guys can work safely with those non-movable pinned magazines) I was able to load my magazine through the port without opening the upper receiver. I was only loading 5 rounds and it might get hard to load a larger amount of rounds this way, but I'll let you know.

I was having problem with the bolt overriding the round in the magazine not being stripped cleanly and some time would wedge or not chamber. I think that using a complete unmodified DPMS magazine will work and I'm planning on trying that next.

I'm also going to mill a grove in the handguard for a hand stop I want to mount. I think this is ultimately going to be a shooter from what I see on paper so far. I haven't done anything special to the trigger other than moly grease bearing surfaces. Still about 5 lbs trigger pull but quite shoot-able.

Well it's time to hit the garage and get my hands dirty.

More to follow as I progress.

The photo linky to this no workie.

C.G.
05-01-2006, 11:02 PM
Are the AR-10 mags just modified M-14 mags?

Has anyone modified a M-14 mag to fit into the HAR-25?

Very curios. I have a bunch of M-14 mags lying around.

Armalite used to sell ``M14 to AR10 mag conversions, but they are coming out with new mags, not sure if the kits are still sold.

adamsreeftank
05-03-2006, 12:01 AM
Please don't let this thread die.

I know I'm not the only one whose anxiously waiting to hear some success stories and see some nice tight groups from your HAR-25s.

EBWhite
05-03-2006, 12:20 AM
An ar-10 mag will work fine. However, it would work better if you filled the magwell with some of that epoxy stuff to make it tighter

five.five-six
05-03-2006, 12:33 AM
I recently saw one of these receivers with the magazine pinned in and gooped up with a very stiff black material, as well as the magazine floorplate welded on. Has anyone attempted to replace the magazine yet?

I just got one out, took about an hour and a half. word to the wise, if Vulcan did it, there is a screw tapped in the front bottom of the magazine. this knowledge will save you about 45 minutes and a few scratches. get some acetone or furniture stripper and rub it on the front of the mag well. this will not hurt the finish but it will remove the barbeque paint he used to cover the set screw that he taped through the mag. I would get a reverse dill bit (they used to sell them at sears) or a small ez-out but you need to get it out. then I would strip the rest of the lower and soak it in furniture stripper.

now I need to put a new mag in.. I will probably use a sporting conversion and a armalite mag and a armalite bolt catch. once I see it is cycling rounds well I will silver solder the conversion bolt and goop the mag in place and wield the butplate

1008

1009

adamsreeftank
05-03-2006, 1:50 AM
I just got one out, took about an hour and a half. word to the wise, if Vulcan did it, there is a screw tapped in the front bottom of the magazine. this knowledge will save you about 45 minutes and a few scratches. get some acetone or furniture stripper and rub it on the front of the mag well. this will not hurt the finish but it will remove the barbeque paint he used to cover the set screw that he taped through the mag. I would get a reverse dill bit (they used to sell them at sears) or a small ez-out but you need to get it out. then I would strip the rest of the lower and soak it in furniture stripper.

now I need to put a new mag in.. I will probably use a sporting conversion and a armalite mag and a armalite bolt catch. once I see it is cycling rounds well I will silver solder the conversion bolt and goop the mag in place and wield the butplate



That's the way they send them if requested by the dealer. They can also send the stripped lower without the pinned mag.

Save yourself some trouble and get a DPMS mag instead of Armalite. The Armalites are too small unless you want to make it fit (like the above post mentions.) The HAR-25 was designed for the wider DPMS mag.

adamsreeftank
05-03-2006, 1:56 AM
I have a feeling that the DPMS magazine is the only game in town for this lower. I did get the follower from the Armalite into the DPMS magazine shell. I did have to file off a little edge along both sides so that it could track. I'll let you know what I get working and post this week.

What is the advantage of the Armalite follower over the DPMS follower? Are you trying to use the springloaded bolt-stop-lifter, or is there something else???

I am about to try and return some Armalite 10 rounders and order some DPMS 10's.

Mnort10x
05-04-2006, 3:01 AM
What is the advantage of the Armalite follower over the DPMS follower? Are you trying to use the spring loaded bolt-stop-lifter, or is there something else???

I am about to try and return some Armalite 10 rounders and order some DPMS 10's.

I just shot my built HAR25 tonight and I'm only using my modified DPMS magazine. I don't plan on using the AR10 mags, too much work to get them to fit and I see no benefit.

I had one bolt carrier override and I think if I tweak the mag spring just a little more I should be done.

This is shooting really well. I shot 10 rounds at 100 yds and I'm still braking in but I'm happy. I will take my aperture sight off and mount my scope this weekend.

Installed a JARD AR10 trigger. I did have to drill through the grip screw hole so that I could install the triggers sear engagement screw. used a #3 wire drill and then tapped the rest of the threads using a 1/4-28 tap. now I'm at 3-1/2 lbs.

Mnort10x
05-08-2006, 11:49 PM
I took the rifle out again and I am still having override problems. Here is what I've observed:

When the bolt strips the round from the left side of the magazine (looking through the port, the farthest round), one bolt lug catches the head of the cartridge and starts to push it forward, out of the magazine. When the bullet engages the ramp it cams the round up toward the chamber and pivots off the left lip and pushes down on the follower. There is a point where the head drops below the bolt lug and this is were the bolt overrides the round.

I am envisioning the need to remove about 1/4" of the lip to a depth of about 1/8" and re-contour it to cause the pivoting to be lessened and thereby keeping the lug in contact with the case head throughout the loading process.

I think this will solve all the problems. I will photograph the before and after state and then it is back to the range. Wednesday will be the test day. I'll let everyone know then. Wish me luck.

gidddy169
05-09-2006, 6:53 AM
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

SES50
05-09-2006, 7:55 AM
I had talked to Accuracy Systems the other day about building up one of my Hesse lowers. They said they had build a Hesse lower up for a guy in Kalifornia already and had to do some machining on the upper to get it to work with the Hesse lower. Now we were discussing the 300 RSAUM but I did not go into detail what the machining on the upper was.

I would have assumed they would have done the same machining to a 308 upper but I did not ask.

Mnort10x
05-12-2006, 10:19 PM
I took the rifle out again and I am still having override problems. Here is what I've observed:

When the bolt strips the round from the left side of the magazine (looking through the port, the farthest round), one bolt lug catches the head of the cartridge and starts to push it forward, out of the magazine. When the bullet engages the ramp it cams the round up toward the chamber and pivots off the left lip and pushes down on the follower. There is a point where the head drops below the bolt lug and this is were the bolt overrides the round.

I am envisioning the need to remove about 1/4" of the lip to a depth of about 1/8" and re-contour it to cause the pivoting to be lessened and thereby keeping the lug in contact with the case head throughout the loading process.


As it stands now I have solved my feeding problems by adjusting the magazine lips. I had to grind the left lip back about half way and removed about .06" which then allows the bolt lug and case head to keep engaged throughout the closing cycle. The photos are of how the rounds were feeding in an unadjusted magazine. See how round cams up by feeding ramp, pivots off mag lip and pushes down follower. Then photos are of adjusted magazine on the left and the untouched factory magazine on the right. I also took off a little on the right side and polished all the lips with 1000 grit paper to make sure there was little drag from the lips. This adjustment should allow maximum OAL bullet seating without problems. Photos explain it all. I hope everyone starts to build there rifles. There is enough info in this thread to cover most issues. When and if I get the chance to make one giant post with all the details I will. I'm going up to Reno this weekend and I hope to get a chance to shoot. :D

220RR
05-12-2006, 10:28 PM
good job..........

Leadthrower
05-12-2006, 10:28 PM
Have you tried using Armalite mags, or are you using DPMS mags?

Mnort10x
05-12-2006, 10:50 PM
Have you tried using Armalite mags, or are you using DPMS mags?

I am using DPMS magazines because that is what the receiver was made to use. The Armalite is loose, and so I decided just to buy new DPMS magazine and make the modification. I shot 30 rounds and had no mis-feed. Locks back on last round. Everything is working great. I replaced the magazine and LocTite and epoxied the Allen head of the set screw so if I want to remove it I'll need to drill & easy-out/screw extract. That is as legal as DOJ needs.

Leadthrower
05-13-2006, 12:41 AM
So would I be saving myself some trouble if I just ordered a DPMS LPK, and mags from them?

adamsreeftank
05-13-2006, 3:55 AM
Cool!!

Thanks for the update and for posting those pics. That is going to help alot.

Mnort10x
05-13-2006, 6:28 AM
So would I be saving myself some trouble if I just ordered a DPMS LPK, and mags from them?


The only DPMS part I have in my build is the magazine. I have seen the DPMS bolt stop in pictures and it looks like it would fit with minimum work, but I can't say for sure. It has the tail that should engage the follower for last round bolt open and I'm sure that everyone would be happier with out having to try to drill into that Armalite stop. (That steel was HARD) All other parts I ordered direct from Armalite (see my posts) and they were fast in delivery. There is no "Drop In" magazine for this rifle. Your going to have to get your feet wet. I would say that using a Dremel and taking your time to test and fit (make up some dummy rounds with max OAL 168gr. bullets and you'll be able shoot a fully functional and accurate .308 when everyone is .223, 6.8 limited. I'm writing this just before my weekend road trip to NV and if I'm a good boy, 1000 yd. test shots may be on the plate tomorrow with this rifle. I'll let everyone know Monday. Have a nice weekend.

adamsreeftank
05-13-2006, 3:35 PM
The only DPMS part I have in my build is the magazine. I have seen the DPMS bolt stop in pictures and it looks like it would fit with minimum work, but I can't say for sure. It has the tail that should engage the follower for last round bolt open and I'm sure that everyone would be happier with out having to try to drill into that Armalite stop. (That steel was HARD) All other parts I ordered direct from Armalite (see my posts) and they were fast in delivery. There is no "Drop In" magazine for this rifle. Your going to have to get your feet wet. I would say that using a Dremel and taking your time to test and fit (make up some dummy rounds with max OAL 168gr. bullets and you'll be able shoot a fully functional and accurate .308 when everyone is .223, 6.8 limited. I'm writing this just before my weekend road trip to NV and if I'm a good boy, 1000 yd. test shots may be on the plate tomorrow with this rifle. I'll let everyone know Monday. Have a nice weekend.

Is this what you are talking about. I just ordered a few.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=LR-11LRP

1186

five.five-six
05-13-2006, 3:42 PM
Is this what you are talking about. I just ordered a few.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=LR-11LRP

1186

mine is still a work in progress but i have the armalite bolt catch it has a slightly shorter fallower catch. I am hoping it will work as I realy messed up my finish geting the old bolt catch out which brings me to a good segway. i am looking into refinishing my lower. brownells was reccomended to me they have this spray on and oven bake (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1145&title=TEFLON%2fMOLY+OVEN+CURE%2c+GUN+FINISH) product. I am just wondering if anyone has used it and which color to get

C.G.
05-13-2006, 4:52 PM
Is this what you are talking about. I just ordered a few.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=LR-11LRP

1186

Looking at my lower I think that could work. Let us know if that works out, maybe I'll replace the Armalite bolt stop with the DPMS.

adamsreeftank
05-13-2006, 9:53 PM
mine is still a work in progress but i have the armalite bolt catch it has a slightly shorter fallower catch. I am hoping it will work as I realy messed up my finish geting the old bolt catch out which brings me to a good segway. i am looking into refinishing my lower. brownells was reccomended to me they have this spray on and oven bake (http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=1145&title=TEFLON%2fMOLY+OVEN+CURE%2c+GUN+FINISH) product. I am just wondering if anyone has used it and which color to get

I haven't used the moly/teflon one, but I used their Gun Cote spray and bake and it worked very well. It was a steel badger floor plate, and I had it sand blasted before I applied it, so I'm not sure it would apply to an aluminum reciever. But my experience was good. Personally, I like the Coyote color.

five.five-six
05-13-2006, 10:40 PM
I haven't used the moly/teflon one, but I used their Gun Cote spray and bake and it worked very well. It was a steel badger floor plate, and I had it sand blasted before I applied it, so I'm not sure it would apply to an aluminum reciever. But my experience was good. Personally, I like the Coyote color.


hmm I do not know how the coyote lower would go with a black upper are you saying strip the upper and paint them both? at this point I have about $1200 in the project and the only thing I can shoot out of it is a spitwad (blow in the muzzel and it will go out the breach :D ) i just want to get it done

Runtagua
05-14-2006, 12:26 AM
I just starting with this. Which magazines work best with HAR lowers dpms or M14? :confused:

adamsreeftank
05-14-2006, 2:27 AM
I just starting with this. Which magazines work best with HAR lowers dpms or M14? :confused:

DPMS. The Armalite or M14 mags are too small and will rattle around.

If you only want to re-finish the lower, I would go with black to match the upper. When I suggested Coyote I was thinking of doing the whole gun. The Brownells site says to degrease and abraisive blast the gun. I would degrease it really well, but I wouldn't blast it. If it is anodized that is a strong surface coating that you want to maintain. You might want to contact them for advice. Let us know what you find out.

five.five-six
05-14-2006, 11:17 AM
I am pretty sure what they want is for the surface not to be smooth and it is not, I soaked it in paint thinner. it is very dry and clean. I ordered the dark gray and black. I am going to do a test to see which matches best. I agree redoing the whole gun would be cool but on top of this I have a 24" stainless flat top bull upper in .308 in the works and a 14" 5.56 car upper with a perm 2" compensator, both are about 80% but I HAVE PEICES EVERYWHER. I am just going to slow down on the new projects for a while

adamsreeftank
05-14-2006, 3:17 PM
I am pretty sure what they want is for the surface not to be smooth and it is not, I soaked it in paint thinner. it is very dry and clean. I ordered the dark gray and black. I am going to do a test to see which matches best. I agree redoing the whole gun would be cool but on top of this I have a 24" stainless flat top bull upper in .308 in the works and a 14" 5.56 car upper with a perm 2" compensator, both are about 80% but I HAVE PEICES EVERYWHER. I am just going to slow down on the new projects for a while

I know what you mean. I think I have just about evey gunsmith tool I'll need and I've been ordering stripped uppers to build just for fun.

Mnort10x
05-14-2006, 9:18 PM
Is this what you are talking about. I just ordered a few.

http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=LR-11LRP

1186


I'm not sure this is the right bolt stop! Might not be meant for the AR10's. I know this is the one I've used for the 80gr. loads in an AR15 fed from there VLD high power magazine.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=MA-LRP
What I'm talking about is the bolt stop DPMS uses in there .308 rifles. I've not talked to them and it looks a lot like this one but I think it will requirer a call. The Armalite bolt stop is much wider and beefer than a standard AR15 Stop. Needs to be because the buffer spring is heaver and you want to spread the load over a wider surface.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=LRPK-308

If this is what DPMS is using as there bolt stop in there .308 rifles, I'll stick with my modified Armalite stop.

P.S. I took this rifle out for the weekend and got about 50 rounds through it without any problems. I was bench rested and shot out to 600 yds. All were 10's and X's without even trying. I did have a Springfield Government scope mounted that I picked up at Camp Perry about 4 years ago. I never much liked this scope (I got hooked on Nightforce NXS, have 3) but I couldn't be happier with it's performance this weekend.

adamsreeftank
05-14-2006, 9:44 PM
I'm not sure this is the right bolt stop! Might not be meant for the AR10's. I know this is the one I've used for the 80gr. loads in an AR15 fed from there VLD high power magazine.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=MA-LRP
What I'm talking about is the bolt stop DPMS uses in there .308 rifles. I've not talked to them and it looks a lot like this one but I think it will requirer a call. The Armalite bolt stop is much wider and beefer than a standard AR15 Stop. Needs to be because the buffer spring is heaver and you want to spread the load over a wider surface.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=LRPK-308

If this is what DPMS is using as there bolt stop in there .308 rifles, I'll stick with my modified Armalite stop.

P.S. I took this rifle out for the weekend and got about 50 rounds through it without any problems. I was bench rested and shot out to 600 yds. All were 10's and X's without even trying. I did have a Springfield Government scope mounted that I picked up at Camp Perry about 4 years ago. I never much liked this scope (I got hooked on Nightforce NXS, have 3) but I couldn't be happier with it's performance this weekend.

In the second link you posted, the picture shows the .308 LPK and the only parts "exclusive" to the 308 are the Bolt Catch Screw pin, Front Pivot Pin, and Take Down Pin. It looks like they use a standard AR15 bolt stop in their 308. I don't know if the one for the VLD mags will work, but If the peg lines up with the mag follower tab, I'll use them.

I'm glad your rifle is working well for you. I can't wait to actually get mine built and shooting. I have a fixed 6 or 8 power Springfield scope on one of my M1As, and have never been too confident in it. Last time I checked some of the screws had fallen out and I don't think it's holding zero. It will soon be replaced with a Leupold Mk4. I love my Nightforce on my 50BMG, but I think the bigger ones are too large and heavy for an AR.

adamsreeftank
05-15-2006, 1:01 PM
DPMS just called me and said they don't have any of the bolt stops with the extended tab in stock. I guess I'll be modifying the ones from Vulcan.

Leadthrower
05-15-2006, 4:42 PM
So no one can get these things to use Armalite magazines w/o modification? I just want to find the right combo of LPK, and a bolt-catch that works with an Armalite mag. I figure all it's going to take for someone just get it right is to find which parts kit will hold the mag and feed properly. Maybe I am wrong for thinking this should work but we shall see.

Mnort10x
05-15-2006, 10:00 PM
DPMS just called me and said they don't have any of the bolt stops with the extended tab in stock. I guess I'll be modifying the ones from Vulcan.

I spoke with DPMS as well today and they told me that there .308 uses a different bolt stop than the VLD stop and I ordered it. We'll see what I get when I get it. I don't need it but I'm interested to see what they use.

C.G.
05-15-2006, 10:30 PM
So no one can get these things to use Armalite magazines w/o modification? I just want to find the right combo of LPK, and a bolt-catch that works with an Armalite mag. I figure all it's going to take for someone just get it right is to find which parts kit will hold the mag and feed properly. Maybe I am wrong for thinking this should work but we shall see.

Well, if you are using an Armalite mag then you need to go with Armalite LPK.

C.G.
05-15-2006, 10:31 PM
I spoke with DPMS as well today and they told me that there .308 uses a different bolt stop than the VLD stop and I ordered it. We'll see what I get when I get it. I don't need it but I'm interested to see what they use.

Report when you get it, please.

adamsreeftank
05-16-2006, 2:20 AM
After getting some DPMS mags, I compared how they fit with the Hesse upper and the Armalite upper. Using the Hesse upper, they require no modifications to fit in the rifle, even with a bolt and carrier installed. The Armalite upper has a slightly different geometry with a bit more metal inside the upper above the pivot lug. This is what causes the DMPS mags to bind in the front. Hesse uppers don't have this problem.

When I loaded some dummy rounds they would not feed from the magazine. They would hit nose-first into the inside of the upper. Either the upper needs to be contoured above the pivot lug, or the mag needs to be altered. The previous post with the picture of the mag lips ground a bit addresses this, but I think bending the lips so they point the bullet a hair up at the tip would also work.

I also compared the bolt stop I got from Vulcan, and it is definitely larger than a standard AR15 bolt stop. It is interesting that it has a hole in it where it needs a post to catch the magazine. It looks like someone knew what to do, but they never finished perfecting the parts.

five.five-six
05-16-2006, 4:12 AM
It is interesting that it has a hole in it where it needs a post to catch the magazine. It looks like someone knew what to do, but they never finished perfecting the parts.

I just finished moding my mag and it cycles flawlessly... have not shot it yet but after 3 hrs of tinkering I am fairly confident it will work just fine. I put a roll pin in the hole in the hesse/vulcan bolt stop, I put the armalite falower in with the spring loaded catch inverted. I had to mod the fallower as the fallower spring doubles as a stop for the catch. the point is that it works flawlessly. I will post picks later.

I also made a disturbing discovery. with the armalite fallower I could only load 9 rounds but with the dpms fallower it took 11

Mnort10x
05-16-2006, 9:10 AM
I just finished moding my mag and it cycles flawlessly... have not shot it yet but after 3 hrs of tinkering I am fairly confident it will work just fine. I put a roll pin in the hole in the hesse/vulcan bolt stop, I put the armalite falower in with the spring loaded catch inverted. I had to mod the fallower as the fallower spring doubles as a stop for the catch. the point is that it works flawlessly. I will post picks later.

I also made a disturbing discovery. with the armalite fallower I could only load 9 rounds but with the dpms fallower it took 11

I wouldn't go there if I were you. 9 rounds will be just fine, 11 and your manufacturing a high cap felony. Stay at 10 or below. That experiment should be over.

When you do get the chance, photos would be appreciated. I was wondering if you found the Armalite to angle down a bit when inserted into the mag well? I was worried about the bullet tips missing the ramps. Do you see any problems in this area?

I would love to get the Armalite magazine working because the tapered body front to back would allow the rounds to feed better with a AR10 upper. I was thinking of milling aluminum rails or finding some "L" stock that could be epoxied in front of the magazine to fill the void.

How are you retaining/fixing the magazine? I found the magazine catch would not engage properly and I could rattle the magazine loose without pushing the button.

five.five-six
05-16-2006, 10:56 AM
I wouldn't go there if I were you. 9 rounds will be just fine, 11 and your manufacturing a high cap felony. Stay at 10 or below. That experiment should be over.

that is the way the D.P.M.S. came outof the box. I cut doun the underside of the armalite fallower and now it holds 10 perfactly



When you do get the chance, photos would be appreciated. I was wondering if you found the Armalite to angle down a bit when inserted into the mag well? I was worried about the bullet tips missing the ramps. Do you see any problems in this area?

I would love to get the Armalite magazine working because the tapered body front to back would allow the rounds to feed better with a AR10 upper. I was thinking of milling aluminum rails or finding some "L" stock that could be epoxied in front of the magazine to fill the void.

both front fingers are gone! I even decked the front fo the mag about 1/8 of a inch where the fingers were to allow the mag to go in about 1/8th furher. I had to cut about 1/8th off the bottom of th mag catch hole so i could push the mag about 1/8th deeper on the well



How are you retaining/fixing the magazine? I found the magazine catch would not engage properly and I could rattle the magazine loose without pushing the button.

ineresting.. me too I took the mag cach down about 1/32nd all the way around so it would go in all the way (about 15 min with #200 sand paper). I am using that and the tapped hole that vulcan put in the front. I inserted the mag in he well and when i got it to work, which required pressure from the op round against the bolt, I ran my tap in the hesse hole to make a mark on the mag...drilled the hole thn tapped the hoke in place... wammo works great... just a seccond let me cycle 10 rounds .....wow that is fun just got to get out to the range. I will post some pics but i am real embarrised about the scratches i made removing th mag catch rollpin I am going to see if I can't refinish it first

adamsreeftank
05-16-2006, 1:25 PM
I will post some pics but i am real embarrised about the scratches i made removing th mag catch rollpin I am going to see if I can't refinish it first

I can't wait to see the photos.
If you want a quick fix for the scratches, try the Birchwood Casey aluminum touchup. They make a chemical in a jar that will darken the metal, or a pen with a paint. They both work pretty well.

adamsreeftank
05-16-2006, 3:33 PM
I put a roll pin in the hole in the hesse/vulcan bolt stop, [/COLOR]

This is brilliant. I wish I read your post before I broke off a tap in one of my bolt stops. Now I need to order some roll pins and another bolt stop.

C.G.
05-16-2006, 11:09 PM
I just finished moding my mag and it cycles flawlessly... have not shot it yet but after 3 hrs of tinkering I am fairly confident it will work just fine. I put a roll pin in the hole in the hesse/vulcan bolt stop, I put the armalite falower in with the spring loaded catch inverted. I had to mod the fallower as the fallower spring doubles as a stop for the catch. the point is that it works flawlessly. I will post picks later.

I also made a disturbing discovery. with the armalite fallower I could only load 9 rounds but with the dpms fallower it took 11

One of my DPMS mags only holds nine, the upper will not close on ten; I guess I will have to play with the lips.

five.five-six
05-16-2006, 11:31 PM
One of my DPMS mags only holds nine, the upper will not close on ten; I guess I will have to play with the lips.

9 is fine, I am not going to hastle trying to get one more in there. I usaly only shoot 3 at a time anyways

adamsreeftank
05-17-2006, 3:27 AM
After struggling with the bolt hold open, I changed tracks, and it is working very well. I thought I needed the bolt-stop post to push down on the follower to drop the bolt on an empty mag, but I was mistaken. The bolt was actually hanging on the bump on the follower. I shaved off a tiny bit at the back of the bump and now the bolt will slide over the follower no problem.

I tried using the roll pin in the hesse bolt stop hole and I modified a DPMS mag so it would work as planned, but it didin't really work well, the bolt stop would jam against the bolt and carrier after the last round and was very hard to free. I finally pulled the pin and went back to an almost original DMPS mag, and it works like a charm. The only mod to the mag was to bevel the back of the follower bump, and to do a TINY TINY bend to the feed lips to tip the bullets up. You can't really see the difference, but it is enough. On my first test mag, I bent the lips up too much and they started binding on the bottom of the bolt carrier. Now it cycles like a champ. After I check headspace, I'll be hitting the range. The Hesse upper is a better fit than the AR-10 upper if you want to use DPMS mags without altering them much.

SES50
05-17-2006, 7:43 AM
After getting some DPMS mags, I compared how they fit with the Hesse upper and the Armalite upper. Using the Hesse upper, they require no modifications to fit in the rifle, even with a bolt and carrier installed. The Armalite upper has a slightly different geometry with a bit more metal inside the upper above the pivot lug. This is what causes the DMPS mags to bind in the front. Hesse uppers don't have this problem.

Either the upper needs to be contoured above the pivot lug, or the mag needs to be altered.

This is what Accuracy Systems was talking about when they told me that they needed to do some modifications to the armalite upper to get it to work on the Hesse lowers.

adamsreeftank
05-17-2006, 10:07 AM
This is what Accuracy Systems was talking about when they told me that they needed to do some modifications to the armalite upper to get it to work on the Hesse lowers.

I'm sure they did a great job. Those guys know what they are doing.

They probably also had to take a bit off the back of the upper. The Hesse lower is not in spec and the AR10 upper won't close if you don't remove some material.

C.G.
05-17-2006, 1:37 PM
I'm sure they did a great job. Those guys know what they are doing.

They probably also had to take a bit off the back of the upper. The Hesse lower is not in spec and the AR10 upper won't close if you don't remove some material.

Must be the luck of the draw. Both my Har-25 lowers lined up just fine with my AR-10 upper, no mods necesary. I did have to enlarge the slot for the
Armalite bolt catch, though, it was not flush and the bolt would not pull back more than about an inch. Prior to the mod, if I left out the bolt catch it would function just fine.

Leadthrower
05-17-2006, 4:54 PM
maybe we should get pics of all the bolt catches and see if the how they'll work. How do any of the other bolt catches look/fit into the recievers? I was comparing the bolt catches of Armalite,DPMS, and generic AR15's and they all have subtle differences.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v134/thegodanubis/sr25_ar10_boltrelease.jpg

DPMS/Generic on the left..........................Amalite AR10 Bolt catch on the right.

adamsreeftank
05-18-2006, 1:22 AM
Must be the luck of the draw. Both my Har-25 lowers lined up just fine with my AR-10 upper, no mods necesary. I did have to enlarge the slot for the
Armalite bolt catch, though, it was not flush and the bolt would not pull back more than about an inch. Prior to the mod, if I left out the bolt catch it would function just fine.

Did you actually put the takedown and pivot pins in before you had it worked on. I tried lots of combinations of uppers and lower, and they were all CLOSE, but if I put the pivot pin in, I couldn't get the takedown pin into any of them. I might have been able to pound them in, but that's not really good for a fixed mag rifle. I haven't touched the stripped AR-10 upper that I have, but even with the Hesse upper, I had to use some fine sandpaper and take a bit off the back of the upper for it to close well.

Leadthrower
05-18-2006, 1:34 AM
Where'd you get your Hesse upper from?

adamsreeftank
05-18-2006, 5:40 AM
Where'd you get your Hesse upper from?

Vulcan.

PM me if you want one.

C.G.
05-18-2006, 10:09 AM
Did you actually put the takedown and pivot pins in before you had it worked on. I tried lots of combinations of uppers and lower, and they were all CLOSE, but if I put the pivot pin in, I couldn't get the takedown pin into any of them. I might have been able to pound them in, but that's not really good for a fixed mag rifle. I haven't touched the stripped AR-10 upper that I have, but even with the Hesse upper, I had to use some fine sandpaper and take a bit off the back of the upper for it to close well.

Yes, both my pins were in and it lined up no problem with either of the lowers; like I said it must be the luck of the draw.

adamsreeftank
05-18-2006, 10:35 AM
Yes, both my pins were in and it lined up no problem with either of the lowers; like I said it must be the luck of the draw.

Interesting. I guess it is a crap shoot with the Hesse stuff. So to speak.

five.five-six
05-22-2006, 10:16 PM
ok my photos are crap but th gun is real nice and cycles flawlessly. I refinished the lower today with the brownells stuff. it is not as flat as the lower was or the upper is but it is a big improvement on the hesse finnish.

ask questions about the photos

1270

1271

1272

1273

five.five-six
05-22-2006, 10:17 PM
two more photos


1274

1275

C.G.
05-23-2006, 2:36 AM
[quote=five.five-six]two more photos


quote]

The first pic almost made me sea-sick, not really. Did you use DPMS or AR bolt catch?

adamsreeftank
05-23-2006, 4:18 AM
ok my photos are crap but th gun is real nice and cycles flawlessly. I refinished the lower today with the brownells stuff. it is not as flat as the lower was or the upper is but it is a big improvement on the hesse finnish.

ask questions about the photos



So it looks like you are using the Armalite folower in the DPMS magazine with the Vulcan bolt stop.

Did you have to modify the parts? Is the rollpin in the bolt stop at the right height to work with the tab on the Armalite follower? Does it lock back on an empty mag, and can you release the bolt carrier with the bolt stop. I had a problem with the bolt stop getting jammed between the bolt carrier and the bolt lugs when I tried to use the roll pin in the bolt stop.

Your pictures could be better, but the rifle looks nice.

C.G.
05-23-2006, 11:49 AM
So it looks like you are using the Armalite folower in the DPMS magazine with the Vulcan bolt stop.

Did you have to modify the parts? Is the rollpin in the bolt stop at the right height to work with the tab on the Armalite follower? Does it lock back on an empty mag, and can you release the bolt carrier with the bolt stop. I had a problem with the bolt stop getting jammed between the bolt carrier and the bolt lugs when I tried to use the roll pin in the bolt stop.

Your pictures could be better, but the rifle looks nice.

I had the same problem with the Armalite bolt catch. It did not sit flush at rest, had to Dremel a little meat on the left side of the bolt catch slot. Now it works fine, but will not lock back on last round on the DPMS mags, yet; I am working on a solution.

five.five-six
05-23-2006, 11:56 AM
So it looks like you are using the Armalite follower in the DPMS magazine with the Vulcan bolt stop.

Did you have to modify the parts?

Only a lot

Is the rollpin in the bolt stop at the right height to work with the tab on the Armalite follower?

No, the spring loaded pin has to be flipped upside down and the follower has to be modified so the follower spring can slide under it as it doubles as a retaining clip. (See photo 1271 and 1272) I had to deck the bottom of the follower as it only accepted 9 rounds. The edges of the spring guide portion of the follower had to be shaped so the spring would not bind as the mag was loaded and I clipped the last two legs off the Armalite spring as it was binding on the first few rounds. The Armalite box is deeper than the D.P.M.S.

Does it lock back on an empty mag, and can you release the bolt carrier with the bolt stop. I had a problem with the bolt stop getting jammed between the bolt carrier and the bolt lugs when I tried to use the roll pin in the bolt stop.

Bolt stop works fine. Stops last round every time. The recoil spring is much heaver on the ar-10 than the ar-15 so there is a bit more pressure required to release the bolt but not too much. I had to take about 1/8th inch off the roll pin in the Vulcan bolt stop

Your pictures could be better, but the rifle looks nice.

I was more interested in assembling my rifle, sorry about that but they were more of an afterthought. Mind you I have not shot it yet but all indications are good. It consistently cycles rounds and stops on last shot. I have ran about 10 mags through it manually, no hitches

adamsreeftank
05-23-2006, 10:19 PM
Only a lot
...
I was more interested in assembling my rifle, sorry about that but they were more of an afterthought. Mind you I have not shot it yet but all indications are good. It consistently cycles rounds and stops on last shot. I have ran about 10 mags through it manually, no hitches

Thanks for the info.
I was able to get the DPMS mag working with very little modifications. Maybe 1-2 minutes per mag. It doesn't have last-shot hold-open, but I don't really mind that. I'll admit, I spent a few hours trying to get the last-shot hold open to work, and finally gave up after prety much ruining a DPMS mag.

five.five-six
05-23-2006, 11:00 PM
Thanks for the info.
I was able to get the DPMS mag working with very little modifications. Maybe 1-2 minutes per mag. It doesn't have last-shot hold-open, but I don't really mind that. I'll admit, I spent a few hours trying to get the last-shot hold open to work, and finally gave up after prety much ruining a DPMS mag.
what did you have to do to get the dpms working? I may be mooving to vegas and will be able to drop my mags

Leadthrower
05-24-2006, 10:23 AM
Thanks for the info.
I was able to get the DPMS mag working with very little modifications. Maybe 1-2 minutes per mag. It doesn't have last-shot hold-open, but I don't really mind that. I'll admit, I spent a few hours trying to get the last-shot hold open to work, and finally gave up after prety much ruining a DPMS mag.

What upper, bolt catch/ Magazine combo did you use? (Example; Armalite upper/Hesse bolt catch/DPMS Magazine). I'd also like to know what mods you had to do on your rifle to make it cycle correctly. Pics would be even better!

five.five-six
05-24-2006, 10:32 AM
Thanks for the info.
I was able to get the DPMS mag working with very little modifications. Maybe 1-2 minutes per mag. It doesn't have last-shot hold-open, but I don't really mind that. I'll admit, I spent a few hours trying to get the last-shot hold open to work, and finally gave up after prety much ruining a DPMS mag.


yes please poste pic

adamsreeftank
05-24-2006, 5:30 PM
What upper, bolt catch/ Magazine combo did you use? (Example; Armalite upper/Hesse bolt catch/DPMS Magazine). I'd also like to know what mods you had to do on your rifle to make it cycle correctly. Pics would be even better!

I dusted off my digital camera to share some info.
This is what is working for me.

Hesse lower (stripped)
Vulcan supplied bolt stop
Hesse upper (barreled)
AR10 bolt, carrier, charging handle
DMPS Magazine (almost stock)

I can only upload 5 pictures at a time, so I will make two posts. I'll start with the uppers and discuss the magazines in the next post.

Here is a family portrait showing two barrled Hesse uppers from Vulcan, a stripped Hesse upper from Vulcan, and a stripped AR10 upper from Armalite:
1291

Side by side view:
1290

Inside view. Notice that the Armalite upper has material in two places the Hesse doesn't. This is why you have to modify the front of the DPMS mags to work the the AR10 uppers:
1288

This shows the sanding I had to do in order for the Hesse upper and lower to close. They lock up very tight:
1292

Here is a comparison of the Vulcan-supplied bolt stop and a stardard AR15 bolt stop:
1285


To be continued...

adamsreeftank
05-24-2006, 5:36 PM
To modify the magazine, I did the following:

1. I used a knife to shave a tiny bit off the back of the bump on the plastic follower. This allows the bolt to close on the empty magazine. Before I did this, the bolt would catch and I'd have to stick my fingers in the ejection port and push down on the follower to close the bolt.
1294

2. I took some pliers and applied a tiny bit of uppward bend to the front of the feed lips to angle the bullets up more. I also took a light hammer and gave a gentle tap to the back of the feed lips. If you look at the magazine and compare it to a stock, one, you can't see the bend. If you load both, then you can see that the bullets in the modded one have their tips maybe 1-2 cm higher than in the stock magazine. That is how I knew I was bending them. I used the plastic dummy rounds (4 of them) to test for function. Before I bent the feed lips, they would jam below the feed ramps. As I tested them I kept getting the second round jamming, so I applied a little more bend to the left side.
1293

I haven't tested with a full magazine, and I haven't fired it yet, so I would say it seems to be working, but I'm not %100 sure yet. If I run into any problems, I'll either apply a little more bend, or I'll sand off a bit of the feed lips, like another poster showed in their photo.

One warning. On the mag I ruined, I bent the feed lips too much, and they started binding on the bottom of the bolt carrier. If you can't get it feeding with a tiny bit of bend, you should probably remove some material so you don't increase the height of the magazine. This picture shows how I tried to get the last shot hold-open working. I may have taken a tiny bit too much off the tab on the follower. I didn't think it was worth pursuing.
1296

The only remaining problem I see is that the strong AR10 spring is bending the spring-retainer. One got bent bad enough that the spring would pop out when I openend the action. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about that yet.
1295

Leadthrower
05-24-2006, 6:08 PM
Thank you very much man, these post have helped a whole lot! Now it's time to start building!:D

five.five-six
05-24-2006, 6:27 PM
To modify the magazine, I did the following:




wow I am stunned! thanks for all the help!

adamsreeftank
05-24-2006, 9:12 PM
wow I am stunned! thanks for all the help!

Your welcome.

C.G.
05-24-2006, 10:26 PM
[quote=adamsreeftank]To modify the magazine, I did the following:

1. I used a knife to shave a tiny bit off the back of the bump on the plastic follower. This allows the bolt to close on the empty magazine. Before I did this, the bolt would catch and I'd have to stick my fingers in the ejection port and push down on the follower to close the bolt.


2. I took some pliers and applied a tiny bit of uppward bend to the front of the feed lips to angle the bullets up more. I also took a light hammer and gave a gentle tap to the back of the feed lips. If you look at the magazine and compare it to a stock, one, you can't see the bend. If you load both, then you can see that the bullets in the modded one have their tips maybe 1-2 cm higher than in the stock magazine. That is how I knew I was bending them. I used the plastic dummy rounds (4 of them) to test for function. Before I bent the feed lips, they would jam below the feed ramps. As I tested them I kept getting the second round jamming, so I applied a little more bend to the left side.


I haven't tested with a full magazine, and I haven't fired it yet, so I would say it seems to be working, but I'm not %100 sure yet. If I run into any problems, I'll either apply a little more bend, or I'll sand off a bit of the feed lips, like another poster showed in their photo.

One warning. On the mag I ruined, I bent the feed lips too much, and they started binding on the bottom of the bolt carrier. If you can't get it feeding with a tiny bit of bend, you should probably remove some material so you don't increase the height of the magazine. This picture shows how I tried to get the last shot hold-open working. I may have taken a tiny bit too much off the tab on the follower. I didn't think it was worth pursuing.


The only remaining problem I see is that the strong AR10 spring is bending the spring-retainer. One got bent bad enough that the spring would pop out when I openend the action. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about that yet.
quote]

Several notes:
1) The Vulcan bolt catch is very close to the AR-10 design.
2) I did not shave off the follower in spite of having the bolt catch on it, but after cycling a bunch and a few tens of rounds it hardly does it anymore.
3) Never had to bend the feed lips on my DPMS mags, but on one mag the upper will not close on ten rounds, will close on nine.
4) Is the spring retainer AR-15? I got the full AR-10 LPK and mine does not do that, or at least not yet.

adamsreeftank
05-25-2006, 12:58 AM
Several notes:
1) The Vulcan bolt catch is very close to the AR-10 design.
2) I did not shave off the follower in spite of having the bolt catch on it, but after cycling a bunch and a few tens of rounds it hardly does it anymore.
3) Never had to bend the feed lips on my DPMS mags, but on one mag the upper will not close on ten rounds, will close on nine.
4) Is the spring retainer AR-15? I got the full AR-10 LPK and mine does not do that, or at least not yet.


2. Once you've had Garand Thumb, you will be really reluctant to put your fingers into the action to close the bolt.

3. I don't know if I would need to bend the feed lips with pointy FMJ rounds, but my snap caps are kind of stubby, so they jamb. I think lead tipped hunting rounds would also jam without modifying the feed lips.

4. Keep an eye on it. AFAIK, the spring retainer is the same in the AR15 and AR10, but I could be wrong. I need to call Armalite.

five.five-six
05-25-2006, 8:49 AM
2. Once you've had Garand Thumb, you will be really reluctant to put your fingers into the action to close the bolt.

3. I don't know if I would need to bend the feed lips with pointy FMJ rounds, but my snap caps are kind of stubby, so they jamb. I think lead tipped hunting rounds would also jam without modifying the feed lips.

4. Keep an eye on it. AFAIK, the spring retainer is the same in the AR15 and AR10, but I could be wrong. I need to call Armalite.


3. I cut the lips off I think they are just there to keep the fallower from poping out. mine feds fine with fmj, snap caps and hunting ammo

adamsreeftank
05-25-2006, 9:10 AM
3. I cut the lips off I think they are just there to keep the fallower from poping out. mine feds fine with fmj, snap caps and hunting ammo

I was referring to the feed lips that hold the bullet and guide it into the chamber. I think you are talking about the little tabs that keep the front of the follower from popping up. Either way, I'm glad it's working for you.

If anyone is looking for an AR10 bolt and carrier assembly, White Oak Arms just got some more in. www.whiteoakarms.com. FYI.

five.five-six
05-25-2006, 9:50 AM
I was referring to the feed lips that hold the bullet and guide it into the chamber. I think you are talking about the little tabs that keep the front of the follower from popping up. Either way, I'm glad it's working for you.

If anyone is looking for an AR10 bolt and carrier assembly, White Oak Arms just got some more in. www.whiteoakarms.com. FYI.

that might have worked. I ended up decking the rest of the mag. bending the ears uup may just work. I will have to get another mag and try it.. i it works i may just go gripless

ketec_owner
05-25-2006, 4:31 PM
Thanks for the pictures of uppers. Where did you find the Hesse Upper? Is it essentially the same as the DPMS upper? Did the Hesse upper work with modification?

The reason I ask - I've been looking at the SASS upper from DPMS and noticed some DPMS upper reciever assemblies look remarkably like your Hesse upper.

C.G.
05-25-2006, 5:47 PM
Thanks for the pictures of uppers. Where did you find the Hesse Upper? Is it essentially the same as the DPMS upper? Did the Hesse upper work with modification?

The reason I ask - I've been looking at the SASS upper from DPMS and noticed some DPMS upper reciever assemblies look remarkably like your Hesse upper.

DPMS .308 uppers will not fit HAR-25 lowers without major modification.

adamsreeftank
05-25-2006, 6:18 PM
Thanks for the pictures of uppers. Where did you find the Hesse Upper? Is it essentially the same as the DPMS upper? Did the Hesse upper work with modification?

The reason I ask - I've been looking at the SASS upper from DPMS and noticed some DPMS upper reciever assemblies look remarkably like your Hesse upper.

I purchased the uppers from Vulcan.
I think the DMPS upper has a different contour to the back of the upper receiver. You could probably make it work, but it would take a lot of work.

ketec_owner
05-25-2006, 7:34 PM
So what I'm gathering is that the the DPMS and Armalite upper will fit but needs work to fit. The Hesse from Vulcan will fit without modification.

C.G.
05-25-2006, 7:48 PM
So what I'm gathering is that the the DPMS and Armalite upper will fit but needs work to fit. The Hesse from Vulcan will fit without modification.

No, Hesse and Armalite will fit if your lower is not out of spec. I am running an AR-10 upper on mine; the only thing that is different are cosmetics (contour lines). DPMS will need work, if it will fit at all.

ketec_owner
05-25-2006, 7:58 PM
Well that's good news. Thanks for the update. Did anyone here actually send theirs to Accuracy Systems Inc. for assembly? I thought I saw a post on that.

C.G.
05-25-2006, 8:05 PM
Well that's good news. Thanks for the update. Did anyone here actually send theirs to Accuracy Systems Inc. for assembly? I thought I saw a post on that.

Mine went together easily, did have to make a slight mod to the bolt catch slot so that the AR-10 bolt catch would fit flush and that is about it.

adamsreeftank
05-25-2006, 10:23 PM
Well that's good news. Thanks for the update. Did anyone here actually send theirs to Accuracy Systems Inc. for assembly? I thought I saw a post on that.

I remember hearing that, but I don't know who had them work on their gun. I think I saw it posted in ARF. I don't think it is absolutely neccesary to have a smith assemble your gun, if you know the basics and how to check headspace. On the other hand, if you want to be safe and have some level of guarantee that your rifle will function well and have a certain level of accuracy, then I'm all for having a professional build it.

ketec_owner
05-26-2006, 6:26 PM
Headspace. All I'd need is the headspace go-no-go gauges?

adamsreeftank
05-26-2006, 7:27 PM
Headspace. All I'd need is the headspace go-no-go gauges?

You might want the field gauge too. And you need to know how to use them. (Hint: don't slam the bolt closed on the gauges. Just use finger pressure.)

ketec_owner
05-27-2006, 3:42 PM
Hehe - thanks! :)

So what was the word on the bolt stop. Hesse? Was this from a Hesse parts kit?

adamsreeftank
05-28-2006, 4:58 AM
Hehe - thanks! :)

So what was the word on the bolt stop. Hesse? Was this from a Hesse parts kit?

The first one was from hesse. The one in the picture was from an AR15 lpk. I'm getting a lathe soon and I'll probably try to make one with a thicker post.

five.five-six
06-02-2006, 3:42 PM
You might want the field gauge too. And you need to know how to use them. (Hint: don't slam the bolt closed on the gauges. Just use finger pressure.)

I just checked my headspace and it turns out that you realy need to remove the extractor to check it. I know you were supposed to with an ar-15 but you need to with an ar-10 you have to

adamsreeftank
06-02-2006, 5:39 PM
I just checked my headspace and it turns out that you realy need to remove the extractor to check it. I know you were supposed to with an ar-15 but you need to with an ar-10 you have to

Did you have any trouble getting your bolt back together? Also, did the headspace check out OK?

five.five-six
06-18-2006, 10:38 AM
the bolt is a little tricky you have to push the firing pin with your finger and compress the spring to get the cotter pin in. I just got back from a shoot with both my 20" hbar A2 and 24" custom bbl upper. I wil post pics and ranger report later but it functioned flawlessly for 100+ rounds surplus ammo betwen the two of them

five.five-six
06-18-2006, 10:39 AM
the bolt is a little tricky you have to push the firing pin with your finger and compress the spring to get the cotter pin in. I just got back from a shoot with both my 20" hbar A2 and 24" custom bbl upper. I wil post pics and ranger report later but it functioned flawlessly for 100+ rounds surplus ammo betwen the two of them

gidddy169
06-20-2006, 9:46 PM
What happened to all the uploaded pictures I wanted to take a look at them and compare them to my magazines but they all seem to be gone.

adamsreeftank
06-21-2006, 12:09 AM
What happened to all the uploaded pictures I wanted to take a look at them and compare them to my magazines but they all seem to be gone.

Look halfway down page 15 for my pics.

gidddy169
06-22-2006, 6:20 PM
I figured it out, it is because of a setting in firefox it just showed me picture names but no pictures.

five.five-six
06-22-2006, 8:11 PM
Look halfway down page 15 for my pics.
how does yours shoot?

gidddy169
06-24-2006, 5:32 PM
Well my dpms magazine was a lot easier to get working than my ar10 magazine. The only problem is the DPMS is extremely tight in the magwell and very hard to drop with my gripless AR, hopefully it will work in. Both funtion now but neither will hold the bolt open on the last shot. I worked on this for a while but the armalite bolt catch is very hard and difficult to drill into so I gave up. Maybe I will order a Vulcan bolt catch with the hole already in it.

five.five-six
08-25-2006, 10:46 PM
Thank you very much man, these post have helped a whole lot! Now it's time to start building!:D
does anyone have a copy of the doj "har-25 is ok" letter I thought I posted it a whil back but I can not find it

C.G.
08-26-2006, 1:26 AM
does anyone have a copy of the doj "har-25 is ok" letter I thought I posted it a whil back but I can not find it

Drop an e-mail to Vulcan; they will respond fairly quickly,

five.five-six
08-26-2006, 11:25 AM
cool, anyone have a decent line on armalit .308 falloweres and dpms ,308 mags?

five.five-six
09-14-2006, 6:33 PM
well I am just finishing up building another hesse ar-10.... this time I just slaped a factory armalite ar-10 mag in and it functions flawlessly.... no dpms body or modifications of any sort just srb.. slap and manualy cycles 10 rounds no problems even holds open last round..perhaps mine was machined so poorly that an armalite mag works :eek:

adamsreeftank
09-14-2006, 11:31 PM
well I am just finishing up building another hesse ar-10.... this time I just slaped a factory armalite ar-10 mag in and it functions flawlessly.... no dpms body or modifications of any sort just srb.. slap and manualy cycles 10 rounds no problems even holds open last round..perhaps mine was machined so poorly that an armalite mag works :eek:

What kind of upper are you using? I assume Armalite? I think the Armalite upper must have a slightly higher bore axis than the Hesse uppers because the last time I checked the Armalite magazine lips hit the bottom of an Armalite bolt carrier in a Hesse upper.

C.G.
09-15-2006, 12:58 AM
What kind of upper are you using? I assume Armalite? I think the Armalite upper must have a slightly higher bore axis than the Hesse uppers because the last time I checked the Armalite magazine lips hit the bottom of an Armalite bolt carrier in a Hesse upper.
Not in my case.

five.five-six
09-15-2006, 8:50 AM
it is an armalite upper... i just poped it in and run the charging handle 11 times and 10 bullets came out...er 2 snap caps and 8 bullets :)

adamsreeftank
09-16-2006, 3:11 AM
Not in my case.

Did you have to modify the magazine or anything else? Are you saying that a stock hesse upper and lower with an Armalite bolt and carrier works with Armalite (old converted M14) mags? If so, that is very strange since the several I've looked at won't work that way (but they work fine with DPMS mags).

bwiese
09-16-2006, 10:11 AM
This is what I've been hearing, dunno if it's apocrypha or not, and I could've lost something in translation...

... The Vulcan/Hesse 308 lowers have a fixed DPMS mag. It's quite iffy if it works with an Armalite upper. I dunno how well DPMS 308 uppers work/fit either.

However, the Armalite AR10 uppers *DO* work - if an Armalite 308 fixed 10rd mag is replaced.

The main difference in the Vulcan/Hesse 308 lower appears, from what I've heard, to be the width of the magwell. DPMS mags are *wider* than the M14-derived Armalite mags. If you use Armalite mags you have to have some shims placed on each side so there's no side-to-side 'wobble' in the magwell.

YMMV - it's a Vulcan/Hesse, after all - but these do appear to work.

IMHO if you can use Armalite uppers, etc. you should - Armalite has the longest history of volume 308 AR production and they've had time to get the bugs out over the past 12-13 years. (Contrast with Bushmaster's aborted 308 effort.)

C.G.
09-16-2006, 10:47 AM
Did you have to modify the magazine or anything else? Are you saying that a stock hesse upper and lower with an Armalite bolt and carrier works with Armalite (old converted M14) mags? If so, that is very strange since the several I've looked at won't work that way (but they work fine with DPMS mags).

Bill pretty much said it all in the previous post. I used the Armalite made mag (not the M-14 with a conversion). It is a little loose, but does not deter from functioning properly. I did, however, use an Armalite LPK with the latest bolt catch for which I had to modify the receiver a little.

adamsreeftank
09-16-2006, 11:56 PM
Thanks for the update.

If you look at the middle of page 15 of this post, I posted some pictures comparing the Hesse and Armalite uppers.

I think the reason Vulcan removes so much from the top of the DPMS mags they glue into some Har-25 lowers is to make them work with Armalite uppers. If you use a Hesse upper, you don't need to make the mods, but Hesse uppers may not be available anymore, so that's not a bad move on Vulcan's part.

If I were to remove some metal from the mag-catch so the magazine would sit lower, then I think I could get an Armalite mag to work with a Hesse upper, but without either that or enlarging the mag-catch hole in the magazine, the Armalite mag won't function. The feed lips are too high and get in the way of the bolt.

In any case, I'm glad it is working for you. Even though they seem to function fine, I guess there is some variation between Hesse lowers (surprise surprise).

five.five-six
09-17-2006, 12:25 PM
here is one on gun broker (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=56230602) vulcan has them in stock with no bolt. I ground down my bolt stop on this lower.. they are cheep from armalite about$2.00. you are right vulcan uses a LOT OF GLUE. I am just glad that I can use a factory mag as I do a lot of shooting in nevada. it is also usefull in the event of S.H.T.F. day as I have some armalite highcaps in .308 I got in 1999

I remember seeing your photos. in the armalit catalogue they list the ar-15 bolt catch as not being interchangable with the ar-10.. also your pics inspired me to buy extra buffer stops.. thanks

adamsreeftank
09-17-2006, 11:56 PM
here is one on gun broker (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=56230602) vulcan has them in stock with no bolt. ...

Last I heard, Vulcan was out of uppers, but that was second hand info, and I haven't called myself to be sure.

Funny thing about the Gunbroker listing. It says AR-10 upper but is obviously a Hesse built upper. If someone needs one, it is probably a good match for a Hesse lower.

five.five-six
09-18-2006, 12:02 AM
Last I heard, Vulcan was out of uppers, but that was second hand info, and I haven't called myself to be sure.

Funny thing about the Gunbroker listing. It says AR-10 upper but is obviously a Hesse built upper. If someone needs one, it is probably a good match for a Hesse lower.


I spoke to him 2-3 weeks ago first hand... stripped and barreled uppers to be had.. gb price is nice though and it is a hesse per a pm

C.G.
09-18-2006, 12:52 AM
I spoke to him 2-3 weeks ago first hand... stripped and barreled uppers to be had.. gb price is nice though and it is a hesse per a pm

I don't mind the Hesse lower, but personally I would go for an Armalite or better (Noveske, Pac-Nor, Lilja etc.) upper.

adamsreeftank
09-18-2006, 2:37 AM
I don't mind the Hesse lower, but personally I would go for an Armalite or better (Noveske, Pac-Nor, Lilja etc.) upper.

I know Hesse has a bad rep, but personally I think the Hesse upper looks better with the Hesse lower and has a factory gun look. The one I have shot also functions great so far. You could always put a high end barrel on a stripped Hesse upper.

ketec_owner
12-18-2006, 5:51 PM
....

ketec_owner
01-04-2007, 5:12 PM
....

sjpd
02-07-2007, 7:51 PM
The armalite mags and mag catch work. But the mag isn't an exact fit. So I've decided to line the magwell with marine-tex and sand it down. I also had to mod the mag catch and opening in the reciever to work with the armalite 10-rounders so that it catches every time.

Hey Ketec_owner, do you know if an Armalite bolt/carrier will work in a Hesse/vulcan Har25 upper? And if it does, will the DPMS mags work or do I have to use Armalite mags?

C.G.
02-07-2007, 8:22 PM
Hey Ketec_owner, do you know if an Armalite bolt/carrier will work in a Hesse/vulcan Har25 upper? And if it does, will the DPMS mags work or do I have to use Armalite mags?

Armalite mag will work with an Armalite upper. Unfortunately, I don't know whether Armalite mags/bolt carrier work with the Hesse upper, have never seen one. Normally, it is good to buy the carrier with the upper at the same time.

sjpd
02-07-2007, 8:44 PM
Thanks for the info C.G.. I bought the barreled upper from Blackthorne products(Vulcan junk) without the bolt/carrier/handle. I thought maybe I could use Armalite BCH for it.

five.five-six
02-07-2007, 9:15 PM
Thanks for the info C.G.. I bought the barreled upper from Blackthorne products(Vulcan junk) without the bolt/carrier/handle. I thought maybe I could use Armalite BCH for it.
according to vulcan, just drop in either an armalite or dpms bolt group , they both work. also according to the guy on arf.com who is selling a hesse gun, he used fal mags. I just ordered a 10 round fal mag from brownelles and will let you know hoe it works... bullet button here I come

p.s. if it is not sold yet, i think the guy will take $1k for the 24" bbl hesse and will make it non evil and ship to california

sjpd
02-07-2007, 9:21 PM
I thought I saw someone post this info before...I'll try the armalite...thanks five.five-six.

C.G.
02-08-2007, 1:51 AM
according to vulcan, just drop in either an armalite or dpms bolt group , they both work. also according to the guy on arf.com who is selling a hesse gun, he used fal mags. I just ordered a 10 round fal mag from brownelles and will let you know hoe it works... bullet button here I come

p.s. if it is not sold yet, i think the guy will take $1k for the 24" bbl hesse and will make it non evil and ship to california

The bold part does not make any sense whatsever. Bushmaster was the one that used FAL mags, while a great idea, never proved to work for the most part; that is why they sold out the BAR-10 (which was tradmarked and Bushmaster got sued for it) to RRA.

five.five-six
02-08-2007, 1:02 PM
The bold part does not make any sense whatsever. Bushmaster was the one that used FAL mags, while a great idea, never proved to work for the most part; that is why they sold out the BAR-10 (which was tradmarked and Bushmaster got sued for it) to RRA.

see this link

arf.com hesse for sale (http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=120&t=394937)


Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
I have been asked what type of magazine this rifle takes.

I think it is a FAL mag that has a slot milled in the side. I'll post some close ups of the mags.

I started a thread to ID this mag and it was Id'd as a FN FAL Metric doner mag. Cheap, readily available mags that is relatively easy to convert


www.atomiclabrat.com/images/2006-11-26%20%20HAR-25%20mag%20m11%20pins/2006-11-25%20%20HAR-25%20mag%20left%20side.JPG

www.atomiclabrat.com/images/2006-11-26%20%20HAR-25%20mag%20m11%20pins/2006-11-25%20%20HAR-25%20mag%20Right%20side.JPG

olegk
02-24-2007, 4:25 PM
I had DPMS magazine that came with HAR-25 lower.
Never tried to fit. Bought Armalite-Eagle Arms 24’’ upper. Went straight with Armalite magazine. Put some dust tape around the magazine to make it tight in magwell. Shoot 100 rounds without single issue.
DPMS magazine came to my mind today. I said “What the hack!” and tried to fit it in.
Bend left lip down just 0.05 inch. Loaded rounds (blanks) into magazine and it cycles without any problem. I am not very familiar with AR platform. Based on my observation there are two ramp cuts in the upper that allows to load from left and right rounds postion.

Japedo
02-25-2007, 5:59 AM
He sold that rifle here to me :)

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=46664&highlight=har-25

It seems no one wanted it, I got a good deal on it, I still have'nt got my grubby little hands on it, as it just arrived into town, and I have a few days left on my dross. The magazine looks to be a modified FN-FAL, but it is all 'hearsay.

The good guys at Metroshot, have a similiar one for sale, but are having problems with the mags, I told them they could borrow mine to duplicate it, so hopefully they will start selling them

see this link

arf.com hesse for sale (http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=120&t=394937)

sactoshooter
03-30-2007, 7:45 PM
Ok guys I am starting my build after reading through this 100 times and I decided to order a blackthorne upper. I know ... its owned by vulcan/hesse but I have 3 rifles including this har-25 and i have never had problems and they are great for plinking. When I got the upper and just as I suspected it is built on a hesse Upper same as pictured earlier in the thread. I ordered an AR10 LPK and A2 buttstock from armalite and mags from DPMS. I read somewhere that the DPMS mags are similar to the original ar10 design and figured it should work well with the hesse/blackthorne upper since thats how the rifle was originally sold. The only problem I might have is with the bolt catch and I am going to see how everything fits together hopefully this weekend. I will let you guys know.

OZONE78
03-31-2007, 6:38 AM
I recently saw one of these receivers with the magazine pinned in and gooped up with a very stiff black material, as well as the magazine floorplate welded on. Has anyone attempted to replace the magazine yet?

Yep. Been there, done that. FAIRLY easy.