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IDPA4U
04-22-2010, 9:59 AM
I saw the auction below on Gunbroker for some LE .223 ammo and was wondering how it would look in the eyes of the law/court etc if a home owner used such ammo for lawful self defense. I have always been told that using similar ammunition to LE issue was a smart move in the eyes of most pro gun attorneys. However, would ammo clearly marked for Law Enforcement ("ONLY" seems implied in this packaging) be something that would likely be misconstrued somehow against the homeowner in court? I know anything can be misconstrued but I'm just curious if their are any documented cases.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=165587719

Personally, I'll stick with Hornady TAP but just curious.

paul0660
04-22-2010, 10:06 AM
I believe the "law enforcement" labeling is marketing, not legal. That being said, a sharp attorney could take advantage of that labeling.

Untamed1972
04-22-2010, 10:07 AM
And what is so special about it that make it "LE only"? And if that's really the case then why would they sell it to a non-LE buyer?

Unless it's specifically banned ammo like tracers or AP rounds then it's just ammo.

IDPA4U
04-22-2010, 10:19 AM
Here is how Federal describes it:
"Designed exclusively for Law Enforcement. Tactical Bonded Rifle Ammunition is a Federal product made exclusively for law enforcement. It achieves accuracy and terminal performance unmatched by any other ammunition. Designed to defeat the toughest barriers with minimal deflection or deviation for the most intense situations, Tactical Bonded has quickly become the choice for some of the most intense conditions. Velocity @ muzzle = 3150 fps."

383green
04-22-2010, 10:22 AM
"Law Enforcement" ammo can only be used by law enforcement officers in exactly the same way that "Hunting" ammo can only be used by hunters: It's just a product designed for and marketed to a specific market segment, with no legal force requiring it to be restricted to only that market.

Untamed1972
04-22-2010, 10:23 AM
Here is how Federal describes it:
"Designed exclusively for Law Enforcement. Tactical Bonded Rifle Ammunition is a Federal product made exclusively for law enforcement. It achieves accuracy and terminal performance unmatched by any other ammunition. Designed to defeat the toughest barriers with minimal deflection or deviation for the most intense situations, Tactical Bonded has quickly become the choice for some of the most intense conditions. Velocity @ muzzle = 3150 fps."


If it's exclusively for LE then it shouldn't be sold to civies.

383green
04-22-2010, 10:25 AM
If it's exclusively for LE then it shouldn't be sold to civies.

False. By that reasoning, shotgun shells designed exclusively for quail hunters shouldn't be sold to anybody but quail hunters, match-grade ammo shouldn't be sold to anybody but competitive shooters, etc.

SixPointEight
04-22-2010, 10:26 AM
If it's exclusively for LE then it shouldn't be sold to civies.

Well it says designed for. Not, "illegal for all non-LE"

like 383Green said, that's exactly like saying, designed exclusively for hunters, doesn't mean that if you shoot paper with it you're gonna be arrested for misuse of ammo.

Untamed1972
04-22-2010, 10:32 AM
False. By that reasoning, shotgun shells designed exclusively for quail hunters shouldn't be sold to anybody but quail hunters, match-grade ammo shouldn't be sold to anybody but competitive shooters, etc.

I was being facetious :rolleyes:

jb7706
04-22-2010, 10:35 AM
That being said, a sharp attorney could take advantage of that labeling.

Can you (or anyone else) cite any case where that has actually happened? Or any case where the selection of ammunition was an issue in the trial? I'm aware of the Arizona case, but caliber was at issue, not the flavor of ammo.

tyrist
04-22-2010, 10:38 AM
And what is so special about it that make it "LE only"? And if that's really the case then why would they sell it to a non-LE buyer?

Unless it's specifically banned ammo like tracers or AP rounds then it's just ammo.

The manufacturers want to avoid another black talon media blitz.

bwiese
04-22-2010, 10:40 AM
If that ammo was in fact used by the local LE agency and you happened to use it in a legit shoot of a perp, I would think that would actually go to your benefit.

Big Jake
04-22-2010, 11:06 AM
My sister dates an LEO and he gets me Hydrashock ammo all the time! He told me that it is not a problem as long as what he gives me is not tracer ammo. I hope he is correct because I love that ammo!

Sinixstar
04-22-2010, 11:14 AM
I was under the assumption that the 'For LE only' designations had more to do with issues of cops taking issued ammo and selling it for profit. Some LE agency paid for it - so if a LEO was taking it and selling it, that could be considered theft, no?

1BigPea
04-22-2010, 11:18 AM
I've purchased 1000's and 1000's of rounds of LE ammo from sites like Ammo to go. They say it's overstocked ammo, whatever. Shotgun, pistol, rifle, I've never even thought twice about it.

Army
04-22-2010, 11:19 AM
Cops are forced to use what the dept. allows, due to probable litigation. Using law enforcement branded ammo, especially what your local dept. uses, makes it easy to defend your using it.

"This is the same ammunition my local Police use, your Honor".

paul0660
04-22-2010, 11:21 AM
Can you (or anyone else) cite any case where that has actually happened?

Nope, but I have been on juries where the average IQ was less than a hundred, and I was raising that average........(trust me).

JDoe
04-22-2010, 11:23 AM
...I have always been told that using similar ammunition to LE issue was a smart move in the eyes of most pro gun attorneys. However, would ammo clearly marked for Law Enforcement ("ONLY" seems implied in this packaging) be something that would likely be misconstrued somehow against the homeowner in court? I know anything can be misconstrued but I'm just curious if their are any documented cases.

WWB is marked as target ammo. So does that mean that the shooter intended to be so precise as to execute people with one shot?

.22 LR is documented as being responsible for more deaths than any other round. Does that mean that you are a natural born killer if you shoot a bad guy with .22 LR?

chiefcrash
04-22-2010, 11:25 AM
If that ammo was in fact used by the local LE agency and you happened to use it in a legit shoot of a perp, I would think that would actually go to your benefit.

Exactly: "Well, Your Honor, I thought since it was good enough for the fine men and women of law enforcement to trust their lives to this ammunition, what better ammunition to trust with my family's life? I wasn't looking for the deadliest ammo available, Your Honor, just the most reliable."

Ballistic043
04-22-2010, 11:31 AM
law enforcement only- usually just means its only sold to law enforcement by the manufacturer of the ammo. it does not mean only law enforcement can USE it. freaking hell, i buy law enforcement ammo from civilian stores all the time. speer gold dot anyone? how about federal LE low recoil buckshot with flitecontrol wad, or federal truball slugs marked "Law enforcement ammo"? all available for civilians. some stores just dont stock it, find someone who does.


reminds me of the discussion with winchester black talons. alot of people called them cop killer bullets, even though in the irony of it, the cops were actually the ones using it more, not the perps. perp killers!!

ZombieTactics
04-22-2010, 11:37 AM
First of all, if you are charged with a crime and your attorney is so stupid as to let you get on the stand ... fire him.

Secondly, the prosecutor will always do what ever he can to frame your choice of ammo in the most negative possible context.

As I have said before, and I have SEEN/HEARD this kind of thing in court:
FMJ: "Military style ammunition used for maximum penetration"
JHP: "Designed for killing and doing maximum damage to a human being"
Frangible: "Designed to EXPLODE into SHRAPNEL when hitting a human body"
Marked LE: "The defendant is a cop wannabe"
Marked for hunting: "He was planning to hunt human beings!!"
Marked for ducks/birds/whatever: "Designed for use on ANIMALS!!"
9mm: "Military issued round"
.40: "Cop wannabe"
.45 or 10mm: "Used the biggest bullets he could find"
.22LR: "Used as a sniper round by the Israeli military"
.380: "James Bond wannabe"

... and so it goes.

It should not be YOU on the stand justifying why you chose to buy a legal product. You'll lose on that cross-examination every time. Your attorney needs to provide expert witnesses to counter any such assertions by the prosecution.

The possible advantage of using the same rounds as your local LE ... or some other LE department ... is that your attorney can cross-examine the arresting officer. If your attorney has any brains, he'll have the LE verifying that those JHP rounds are used for safety purposes, and not for their awesome deadliness.

Roadrunner
04-22-2010, 11:51 AM
A lawyer can twist my choice of ammunition any way they want. But the fact of the matter is, if the "professionals" use it, than it must be good stuff, so therefore I will use it.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

hnoppenberger
04-22-2010, 11:55 AM
fools. thats like saying porsches are for race car drivers.

ZombieTactics
04-22-2010, 11:58 AM
A lawyer can twist my choice of ammunition any way they want. And they absolutely will do so.

But the fact of the matter is, if the "professionals" use it, than it must be good stuff, so therefore I will use it. I wouldn't argue with that logic for a second. You just don't want to be the one justifying that decision ... STAY OFF OF THE STAND. Let your lawyer do his job, and you'll have that "good stuff" idea expressed by people the jury will believe.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. You have the right to remain silent. Taking advantage of that right is your best path towards remaining out of prison and retaining the right to tell your story AFTER you've been aquitted.

SgtDinosaur
04-22-2010, 1:51 PM
Nope, but I have been on juries where the average IQ was less than a hundred, and I was raising that average........(trust me).

Oh man, that unfortunately is too true. I even question whether the average IQ is 100 anymore.

Flopper
04-22-2010, 2:00 PM
I think the only truly "LE Only" ammo that really exists is AP handgun ammo. You don't want to get caught with that.

yelohamr
04-22-2010, 2:26 PM
And what is so special about it that make it "LE only"? And if that's really the case then why would they sell it to a non-LE buyer?

It seeks out and hits people making furtive movements in East Palo Alto.

Rascal
04-22-2010, 3:26 PM
Does anyone else have a problem with this? "Tactical Bonded Rifle Ammunition". What the hell is it? How do you tactically bond ammo? :shrug:

POLICESTATE
04-22-2010, 3:35 PM
Responses to lame DA's
FMJ: "Cheap Ammo for Target Shooting"
JHP: "Didn't want to overpenetrate"
Frangible: "Didn't want to go through my thin interior walls if I missed"
Marked LE: "It was on sale"
Marked for hunting: "Had to shoot intruder with my hunting gun"
Marked for ducks/birds/whatever: "Had to shoot intruder with my bird gun"
9mm: "Comfortable shooting this caliber, cheap, plentiful target ammo"
.40: "Comfortable shooting this caliber, didn't want a big bullet"
.45 or 10mm: "It's what I had at the time, hey when am I getting my gun back?"
.22LR: "Cheap plinker gun :)"
.380: "Yes, I am a James Bond wannabe, do you want to see my license to kill? Haha, just kidding, seriously counselor, if I was some homicidal maniac why would I choose a pop gun when I could have used a 12 gauge?"
:43::chris:

First of all, if you are charged with a crime and your attorney is so stupid as to let you get on the stand ... fire him.

Secondly, the prosecutor will always do what ever he can to frame your choice of ammo in the most negative possible context.

As I have said before, and I have SEEN/HEARD this kind of thing in court:
FMJ: "Military style ammunition used for maximum penetration"
JHP: "Designed for killing and doing maximum damage to a human being"
Frangible: "Designed to EXPLODE into SHRAPNEL when hitting a human body"
Marked LE: "The defendant is a cop wannabe"
Marked for hunting: "He was planning to hunt human beings!!"
Marked for ducks/birds/whatever: "Designed for use on ANIMALS!!"
9mm: "Military issued round"
.40: "Cop wannabe"
.45 or 10mm: "Used the biggest bullets he could find"
.22LR: "Used as a sniper round by the Israeli military"
.380: "James Bond wannabe"

... and so it goes.

It should not be YOU on the stand justifying why you chose to buy a legal product. You'll lose on that cross-examination every time. Your attorney needs to provide expert witnesses to counter any such assertions by the prosecution.

The possible advantage of using the same rounds as your local LE ... or some other LE department ... is that your attorney can cross-examine the arresting officer. If your attorney has any brains, he'll have the LE verifying that those JHP rounds are used for safety purposes, and not for their awesome deadliness.

bohoki
04-22-2010, 3:40 PM
i thought the law enforcement ammo was a tax dodge

being for leo it is not taxed at manufacture the same as commercial ammo

socalblue
04-22-2010, 3:48 PM
i thought the law enforcement ammo was a tax dodge

being for leo it is not taxed at manufacture the same as commercial ammo

Incorrect. Excise tax is paid on all ammunition. Authorized (Tax except) government entities get the tax rebated.

Sheepdog1968
04-22-2010, 7:03 PM
For better or for worse, an attorney will have an agrument for either side of the facts to their advantage. For example, if you took lots of firearms classes, the attorney against you would argue you were just hoping someone would break in to your home so you could shoot them. If you didn't take classes then they might argue that you don't know what you are doing and that you really didn't need to shoot.

Sheepdog1968
04-22-2010, 7:05 PM
Agreed.

First of all, if you are charged with a crime and your attorney is so stupid as to let you get on the stand ... fire him.

Secondly, the prosecutor will always do what ever he can to frame your choice of ammo in the most negative possible context.

As I have said before, and I have SEEN/HEARD this kind of thing in court:
FMJ: "Military style ammunition used for maximum penetration"
JHP: "Designed for killing and doing maximum damage to a human being"
Frangible: "Designed to EXPLODE into SHRAPNEL when hitting a human body"
Marked LE: "The defendant is a cop wannabe"
Marked for hunting: "He was planning to hunt human beings!!"
Marked for ducks/birds/whatever: "Designed for use on ANIMALS!!"
9mm: "Military issued round"
.40: "Cop wannabe"
.45 or 10mm: "Used the biggest bullets he could find"
.22LR: "Used as a sniper round by the Israeli military"
.380: "James Bond wannabe"

... and so it goes.

It should not be YOU on the stand justifying why you chose to buy a legal product. You'll lose on that cross-examination every time. Your attorney needs to provide expert witnesses to counter any such assertions by the prosecution.

The possible advantage of using the same rounds as your local LE ... or some other LE department ... is that your attorney can cross-examine the arresting officer. If your attorney has any brains, he'll have the LE verifying that those JHP rounds are used for safety purposes, and not for their awesome deadliness.

SVT-40
04-22-2010, 10:12 PM
Actually it's the manufacturers who sometimes limit the sale of some of the ammo they manufacture to law Enforcement agencies only.

The reason for SOME of these limits is high pressure loading.

Both the Winchester 127 grain +P+ and the Remington 115 grain +P+ ammo are loaded above SAMMI spec's. for 9mm ammunition.

SAMMI is the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute.

The reason they sell it to police agencies only is civil liability. The manufacturers are assured that police are using the ammo in modern firearms designed for modern high pressure ammo.

Some old 9mm handguns were never intended to fire +P+ ammo. So releasing this ammo to the "public" would not be wise. Because sure as day someone would try and shoot it out of an old poorly made pistol and injure themselves.

A civil suite in the making.

Most of the "Hype" as said above is purely salesmanship. But some of the limits are based on safety.

Check out the scans below showing the warnings on the boxes of this P+P ammo.

What is kind of "interesting" is Winchester's restrictions about "use in pistols" only. I can understand about not using it in open bolt sub guns such as the UZI, but when used in our MP5's. It was absolutely devastating. Great penetration and massive expansion when used on "live" targets.


http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/SVT-40/Scans%20%20Photos%20ect/doc334.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/SVT-40/Scans%20%20Photos%20ect/doc333.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w201/SVT-40/Scans%20%20Photos%20ect/doc332.jpg

SixPointEight
04-22-2010, 10:54 PM
The possible advantage of using the same rounds as your local LE ... or some other LE department ... is that your attorney can cross-examine the arresting officer. If your attorney has any brains, he'll have the LE verifying that those JHP rounds are used for safety purposes, and not for their awesome deadliness.

This is a good point...what's SacPD using? Hope it's not HydraShock :p

Gryff
04-22-2010, 11:08 PM
It's been stated that if your defense lawyer is sharp, he'll spin the LE ammo thing in your favor. You were concerned about effectiveness without over-penetration (thereby reducing risk to innocent bystanders), so you chose an ammo that has been approved by numerous law enforcement agencies.

2Cute2Shoot
04-22-2010, 11:39 PM
I want to buy some armor piercing incendiary tracer ammo for my AR. When that rapist breaks into my room and he goes cowering behind my metal desk after he sees me whip out my pink AR, I'm going to shoot him straight thru that desk, and I want to see the trail of my bullet and him burst into flames! :rofl2:

bigcalidave
04-22-2010, 11:47 PM
I want to buy some armor piercing incendiary tracer ammo for my AR. When that rapist breaks into my room and he goes cowering behind my metal desk after he sees me whip out my pink AR, I'm going to shoot him straight thru that desk, and I want to see the trail of my bullet and him burst into flames! :rofl2:

I like your style :)

383green
04-23-2010, 7:08 AM
I want to buy some armor piercing incendiary tracer ammo for my AR. When that rapist breaks into my room and he goes cowering behind my metal desk after he sees me whip out my pink AR, I'm going to shoot him straight thru that desk, and I want to see the trail of my bullet and him burst into flames! :rofl2:

:iggy: :eek:

CSACANNONEER
04-23-2010, 7:23 AM
Unless it's specifically banned ammo like tracers or AP rounds then it's just ammo.

When were AP rifle bullets banned? They aren't! They are perfectly legal to have and use in California. Also, although most tracer ammo in banned, tracer ammo for shotguns is exempt and, therefore legal in Ca.

dfletcher
04-23-2010, 8:05 AM
Well all I can say is this thread has me rethinking my Bond Derringer loaded with 3" 410 bolo rounds as my "go to" gun ...... :eek:

Gryff
04-23-2010, 8:36 AM
I want to buy some armor piercing incendiary tracer ammo for my AR. When that rapist breaks into my room and he goes cowering behind my metal desk after he sees me whip out my pink AR, I'm going to shoot him straight thru that desk, and I want to see the trail of my bullet and him burst into flames! :rofl2:

Got to love the young shooters that have just a little ruthless bloodlust in them. :D

tombinghamthegreat
04-23-2010, 9:45 AM
When were AP rifle bullets banned? They aren't! They are perfectly legal to have and use in California. Also, although most tracer ammo in banned, tracer ammo for shotguns is exempt and, therefore legal in Ca.

He might be referring to AP handgun rounds?

SteveH
04-23-2010, 10:23 AM
I'm aware of one criminal case where caliber and handloaded ammo was an issue and one civil case where caliber was an issue.

I carry the same ammo as issued by the local cops as part of my civil risk management strategy.

SteveH
04-23-2010, 10:26 AM
Does anyone else have a problem with this? "Tactical Bonded Rifle Ammunition". What the hell is it? How do you tactically bond ammo? :shrug:

The jacket is bonded to the core to improve its performance against autoglass.

SixPointEight
04-23-2010, 10:35 AM
The jacket is bonded to the core to improve its performance against autoglass.

That's regular bonding.

This is TACTICAL bonding. Way different process :43:

BKinzey
04-23-2010, 11:13 AM
I'm aware of one criminal case where caliber and handloaded ammo was an issue and one civil case where caliber was an issue...

Can you elaborate?


If type of ammo becomes truly an issue then why not choice of weapon? Amount of training, or lack thereof, even being a member of firearms organizations could be used to show you are some nut looking for an excuse to use deadly force.

BKinzey
04-23-2010, 11:15 AM
That's regular bonding.

This is TACTICAL bonding. Way different process :43:

The workers on that line all wear BDUs;)

ZombieTactics
04-23-2010, 11:32 AM
... If type of ammo becomes truly an issue then why not choice of weapon? Amount of training, or lack thereof, even being a member of firearms organizations could be used to show you are some nut looking for an excuse to use deadly force.
ANYTHING which can be twisted by the prosecution for effect will be. People need to realize that criminal prosecution/defense is an adversarial process. The prosecutor is not interested in anything but using whatever information is available to gain a conviction.

Glock = "just like a gang member"
M&P = "chose a weapons designed for Military and Police use, not for civilians,"
Trained = "planned on using his gun, looking for a fight"
Untrained = "Careless disregard for even basic safety"
NRA member = "Gun nut"

... and so it goes.

Would you bring a knife to a gun fight? If not, why would you even hope to be successful in an environment where lawyers are trained to uses words as weapons? ADVICE: Exercise your right to remain silent, and get a lawyer with better word-fu than the prosecution.

cmth
04-23-2010, 11:50 AM
Massad Ayoob recommends carrying whatever your county sheriff's department uses. My self defense ammo is the same as what the FBI currently issues to their agents.

tube_ee
04-23-2010, 2:12 PM
Can you (or anyone else) cite any case where that has actually happened? Or any case where the selection of ammunition was an issue in the trial? I'm aware of the Arizona case, but caliber was at issue, not the flavor of ammo.

For handloaded ammo, yes, but that was a forensics issue.

Essentially, if the ballistic performance of your ammo (as it relates to the distance of the shooting) becomes an issue at trial, the Court is not required to accept your loading data in lieu of the headstamp on the case. People have gone to prison because of that difference.

For any kind of factory ammo, I'm not aware of any such cases, but of course counsel can (and should) bring up any fact that they think will help them establish their case... that's what they're paid for.

Unless there is some very convincing ballistic reason to do so, I wouldn't... least of all reasons is that it's likely to cost you quite a bit more. But you have to consider the increased risks (theoretical) and the increased costs (obvious) versus the actual performance of the round.

I'd bet that you can find non-"LEO-only"-labeled ammo that will do everything that this load will do. Don't forget that ammo companies are not above making "special LEO-only loads" that really aren't, just so they can sell them to law enforcement agencies at a higher price. Think about Stanley's infamous "MIL-SPEC" hammers... the same hammer you can buy at Dixieline, only priced into the stratosphere because it's "MIL-SPEC" and requires "special tooling".

This is not a new game.

--Shannon

BKinzey
04-23-2010, 3:53 PM
For handloaded ammo, yes, but that was a forensics issue.

Essentially, if the ballistic performance of your ammo (as it relates to the distance of the shooting) becomes an issue at trial, the Court is not required to accept your loading data in lieu of the headstamp on the case. People have gone to prison because of that difference...

What are you trying to say?:confused: Do you have a link to the case or state the name? So somebody used reloads but the court used loading data from the manufacturer who's headstamp appeared on the case? Maybe you can give an overview of the case itself.

jb7706
04-23-2010, 7:38 PM
For handloaded ammo, yes, but that was a forensics issue.

I read the OP as referring to factory ammo, I wasn't referring to hand loads. I don't think many of us would carry reloads for self defense except maybe in SHTF situations.

I'd still be interested in specific cases where load choice was a major factor, as well as the reload case you are referring to.

Meplat
04-23-2010, 9:03 PM
If you use anything but highly frangible bullets for home defense in a 5.56mm and you live closer than 1/4 mile from your nearest neighbor you are either uninformed, irresponsible, or just plain stupid. Of course if caught with your pants down you go to war with what you got. ;)

383green
04-23-2010, 9:15 PM
If you use anything but highly frangible bullets for home defense in a 5.56mm and you live closer than 1/4 mile from your nearest neighbor you are either uninformed, irresponsible, or just plain stupid. Of course if caught with your pants down you go to war with what you got. ;)

You might be surprised by the effects of drywall upon 5.56mm rounds vs. common pistol rounds:

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12.htm

IDPA4U
04-23-2010, 10:33 PM
What are you trying to say?:confused: Do you have a link to the case or state the name? So somebody used reloads but the court used loading data from the manufacturer who's headstamp appeared on the case? Maybe you can give an overview of the case itself.

I heard Massad talk about this case. It was a suicide where the husband had downloaded .38s for his wife's revolver so they were easier to control. She used the gun for to kill herself but the gun powder residue ( based on factory loads) didn't support a contact distance/self-inflicted gun shot wound. The husband's load data was not admisable. He went to prison for murder for his wife's suicide.

Meplat
04-24-2010, 11:05 AM
I would not be surprised at anything a 5.56mm round does. Depending on projectile weight and design, rifling twist, velocity, and other factors I have seen them disintegrate in mid air, tumble on impact like an edger blade, penetrate a few inches and explode like a mini grenade, and go straight through like an ice pick.

Honiday SX varmint bullets @ 3000 FPS barely hold together out of a10" twist without hitting any thing. At 3100 they explode in mid air! I fired some into a baffle box with 5/8" sheetrock panels spaced 3 1/4" apart to simulate an inside wall. A duct seal block was placed 6" behind the second panel. 1/4" hole in first panel. 3" hole in second panel, minute particles of lead dust and tiny fragments of jacket all over the face of the duct seal block. Penetration in the duct seal was nil and largest fragment was a 4 Grn. piece of bullet jacket.

Never assume any particular terminal ballistic performance for the 5.56mm unless you have tested that particular round in that particular gun at that particular range.;)


You might be surprised by the effects of drywall upon 5.56mm rounds vs. common pistol rounds:

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12.htm

BKinzey
04-25-2010, 3:27 PM
I heard Massad talk about this case. It was a suicide where the husband had downloaded .38s for his wife's revolver so they were easier to control. She used the gun for to kill herself but the gun powder residue ( based on factory loads) didn't support a contact distance/self-inflicted gun shot wound. The husband's load data was not admisable. He went to prison for murder for his wife's suicide.

Here's the case:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/

While reloads did have a factor I would say his having his hand on the gun which ultimately killed his wife was a bigger factor. It wasn't clear his wife was attempting suicide and he grabbed the gun in a failed attempt to stop it.

Ayoob also claims reloads are fine for practice and competition, with this scenario I would argue it's a reason never to have reloads around at all. I do still have and use reloads though.

Then his claim of destroying evidence. Testing for DNA, chemical residue and make up, does destroy (albeit minutely) evidence. To take one of the rounds apart, weigh and test the elements separately to prove they weren't factory loads wasn't allowed? :eek::eek:

Lancear15
05-26-2010, 12:49 PM
ADVICE: Exercise your right to remain silent, and get a lawyer with better word-fu than the prosecution.

^ Very valuable advice.

dantodd
05-26-2010, 2:50 PM
Nope, but I have been on juries where the average IQ was less than a hundred, and I was raising that average........(trust me).

That's unfortunate. I was on a jury and would have been happy to have that same jury judge my actions were I ever in the defendant's seat.

Glock22Fan
05-26-2010, 3:11 PM
It's maybe a bit late in the thread to point this out, but "Designed exclusively for LEO" is not the same as "Sold for the exclusive use of LEO."

The former means that the design features were based exclusively on the requirements of LEO. As it happens, LEO usually have more need to penetrate objects, such as car doors, and this ammo was specifically designed to do that sort of thing. Therefore, although I agree that it is usually safe to use the same ammo the local cops do, this might not be a Good Thing if the calgunner cause collateral damage through over-penetration with this ammo.

GrayWolf09
05-26-2010, 3:20 PM
Using LE ammo is illegal in California. If you have any 9mm or 40 S&W LE ammo send it to me for proper disposal. If I buy a gun in another caliber I will let you know and you can send that to me as well.:innocent:

creekside
05-26-2010, 4:02 PM
+1 to +P

:)

tombinghamthegreat
05-26-2010, 4:51 PM
ADVICE: Exercise your right to remain silent, and get a lawyer with better word-fu than the prosecution.

+1. Anything you use would be in question.