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jm838
04-21-2010, 10:50 AM
I've noticed that many people get around the handgun roster with their ak pistols, ar pistols, sig swat pistols, etc. by using a bullet button and a single-shot sled. Why hasn't anyone tried this with a more traditional pistol, like a 1911? If one were to design a mag lock, would it be a feasible way to import/stock un-rostered pistols? Or would it simply give the government a reason to eliminate the fixed-mag option?

munkeeboi
04-21-2010, 11:01 AM
there is a minimum size that needs to be met as well and unless you also find an extended barrel to fit a more traditional pistol single shot exemption is not an option

kf6tac
04-21-2010, 11:03 AM
I've noticed that many people get around the handgun roster with their ak pistols, ar pistols, sig swat pistols, etc. by using a bullet button and a single-shot sled. Why hasn't anyone tried this with a more traditional pistol, like a 1911? If one were to design a mag lock, would it be a feasible way to import/stock un-rostered pistols? Or would it simply give the government a reason to eliminate the fixed-mag option?

Designing a mag lock might be part of the hangup, and also I think there's some sort of minimum overall length requirement for the single-shot exemption that is easier to meet with AK/AR pistols than with other handguns (I don't know the full details of it, but there was a thread somewhere here on CGN discussing the use of a single-shot sled device for a 1911).

bwiese
04-21-2010, 11:07 AM
I've noticed that many people get around the handgun roster with their ak pistols, ar pistols, sig swat pistols, etc. by using a bullet button and a single-shot sled.

Yup.

Why hasn't anyone tried this with a more traditional pistol, like a 1911?
Non-Rostered 1911s are being brought in, primarily thru the use of a (often borrowed/loaned) Pachmayr "Dominator" single-shot upper, or a Springfield Armory "SASS" single-shot upper. (These uppers are usually chambered in rifle calibers, though this is of no legal import.) Just for safety's sake these uppers should be under 16" barrel length.

I myself believe that another 'clean' path to single-shot Roster exemption status would be (and I believe some have done this):

Use cheap long barrel, ~7+" long. [25ACP chambering would allow lower-cost metal + easy to machine & rifle.]
No feedramp on barrel - clearly shows lack of feed ability.
Stiff action spring - a single-shot pistol has no need to cycle on firing, just needs to open for chambering.
A dummy "blue training magazine", or a blocked-to-0-round magazine to serve as filler.
The dummy/filler mag is locked in with screw, replacing the mag catch.
Again ensure min. 6" bbl length long & overall length is min. 10.5" (measured parallel to bore).



Some of the above items besides the long barrel may not be 100% necessary, but certainly offer a defendable "clean" solution and I'd recommend doing all of them - esp. as many of them are cheap.

If one were to design a mag lock, would it be a feasible
way to import/stock un-rostered pistols?Likely a large nylon or brass screw/nut setup and a sleeve of some sort can readily replace a 1911 mag catch - and this prob works on other pistols. May be ugly but meets the need.

Remember, a tool-is-required maglock in an AR/AK or other similar such pistol is present to prevent AW status by avoiding a 'detachable magazine' - regardless of any Roster/single-shot concerns.

But a maglock for a typical semiauto pistol pattern (i.e., magazine contained inside gripframe like a 1911, Sig, Glock, Beretta, etc.) is not to stop AW status, but to ensure/ increase clarity of its "single-shot" status.

The real problem is the variety of barrels for different autoloaders. Various high-grade 1911s are probably up there as one of the most commonly desired off-Roster guns and there'd prob be enough market for such conversion barrels.

Remember that, until we know better, the single-shot conversion for a resale gun needs to occur outside the state of CA before import to CA, and it may well need to happen by mfg FFL.

Dr Rockso
04-21-2010, 11:09 AM
It's been done. The problem is that these dimensionally compliant single shot conversions are expensive and there are a lot of rostered 1911s around.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/s281cobra/sass/DSCN1416.jpg

bigcalidave
04-21-2010, 11:14 AM
WTF is that rockso??

jm838
04-21-2010, 11:14 AM
there is a minimum size that needs to be met as well and unless you also find an extended barrel to fit a more traditional pistol single shot exemption is not an option

Ah yes, found this on another thread

I could be wrong, but I thought that the "single shot" roster exemption only applied to LARGE pistols:

# 12133. [snip]

(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

That's why you are seeing a lot of AK and AR pistols, etc. . .

If some stupid device were clamped to the end of the barrel, and required a tool to be removed, would that constitute a longer barrel and overall length? Obviously the law didn't have this in mind, but I'm sure it was the same case with bullet buttons, single-shot sleds, etc. in the first place. Why not use whatever workarounds we can?

Edit: In the time it took me to type that, there were 3 new responses. My god you guys work fast :)

This is what I was thinking:

1. Standard 1911 grip with a protrusion that covers the mag release. When screwed on, it effectively prevents the mag from being dropped.

2. A cheap tube that slides over the barrel and clamps on. Ugly and crude, but attaches easily, and more importantly detaches easily. The only issue is finding a way to clamp something on the barrel without marring it. Perhaps a nice, soft rubber underside.

3. A mag that has been welded into a sled, or a plastic dummy mag in its place.

Dr Rockso
04-21-2010, 11:20 AM
WTF is that rockso??

Springfield Armory SASS in .223 that Bill mentioned above (not mine, found the pic on another thread).

Longshot37
04-21-2010, 11:23 AM
Why would you want a single shot 1911???????

kf6tac
04-21-2010, 11:25 AM
Why would you want a single shot 1911???????

Because once you import a single-shot pistol, it can be converted back to semi-auto.

jm838
04-21-2010, 11:44 AM
I just realized that the 1911 barrel doesn't protrude. So much for the easy, cheap solution. Could work for Desert Eagles though, given that they have 6 inch barrels and are over 10.5 inches in length. If someone wanted to cheap out on buying the .44 magnum and extra barrels a lock and dummy mag could theoretically work. My original solution might work on other guns with protruding barrels, like beretta 92 knock-offs and such.

franklinarmory
04-22-2010, 5:44 PM
Since there are legal configuration alternatives, couldn't a buyer purchase a frame and build it up on their own? How is the dealer to know if it will be a single shot or something else?

bwiese
04-22-2010, 6:04 PM
Since there are legal configuration alternatives, couldn't a buyer
purchase a frame and build it up on their own? How is the dealer
to know if it will be a single shot or something else?

DOJ BoF asserts that frames of handguns are not Roster-exempt, and a whole complete operational handgun - either a complete Rostered handgun, or a complete Roster-exempt single-action revolver, or a complete Roster-exempt single-shot pistol - must be sold to the customer.

This was covered in a DOJ memo in Spring 2006 memo (2006-FD-06,
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/2006FD-06.pdf) - apparently folks were buying Thompson Contender frames without purchasing the upper/barrel.

However, we believe (this includes our attorneys) this is really "underground regulation" and conflicts with actual law regarding "Unsafe handguns" - a handgun frame for purposes of 12125 is not actually even a Rosterable entity. This lead last year to discussion and possible execution of a "NeRF" (= "non-rosterable frame") campaign - but given we at CGF are suing to overturn the whole damned Roster, this campaign suddenly didn't make sense, and we hope folks are standing down on these attempts.

Table Rock Arms
04-22-2010, 9:22 PM
I posted this on another thread the other day. There is no reason it could not be done. I am in the process of rezoning my property and then I am going to get my 07 FFL. I figured I will have several barrels made for certain models that are long enough to meet the minimum requirements for barrel and OAL. I would also machine a zero shot magazine that locks into place. My FFL will be in Oregon so you would have to transfer the gun through me and I could convert it. After the gun is DROS'd you just gotta send the barrel and magazine back or its gonna cost you. We'll see, I have 3 months wait for the zone change and then a couple more months wait on the FFL. Not sure how profitable it would be, but I figure it is something I would try as long as I don't think I would be losing money.

Ryan

jm838
04-26-2010, 10:48 AM
I posted this on another thread the other day. There is no reason it could not be done. I am in the process of rezoning my property and then I am going to get my 07 FFL. I figured I will have several barrels made for certain models that are long enough to meet the minimum requirements for barrel and OAL. I would also machine a zero shot magazine that locks into place. My FFL will be in Oregon so you would have to transfer the gun through me and I could convert it. After the gun is DROS'd you just gotta send the barrel and magazine back or its gonna cost you. We'll see, I have 3 months wait for the zone change and then a couple more months wait on the FFL. Not sure how profitable it would be, but I figure it is something I would try as long as I don't think I would be losing money.

Ryan

That's an awesome idea!

Hudson
06-08-2010, 11:26 PM
So, will clamping something on the barrel of a single shot pistol constitute a longer barrel ?

or does it need to be tac welded on like a rifle ? do the same barrel length laws that we apply to rifles work for single shot pistols as well ?

can you attach a flashhider to a single shot bullet button equipped pistol ?


im asking because im about to have a pair of CA89K's turned into single shot cali compliant pistols and need to figure out how to bring the 4 inch barrel up to 6 inches..

just to get it to pass dros..then i can remove the extension..so the less permanent the better..

bwiese
06-08-2010, 11:37 PM
so will clamping something on the barrel of a single shot pistol constitute a longer barrel ?

or does it need to be tac welded on like a rifle ? do the same barrel lenth laws that we apply to rifles work for single shot pistols as well ?

im asking because im about to have a pair of CA89K's turned into single shot cali compliant pistols and need to figure out how to bring the 4 inch barrel up to 6 inches..

just to get it to pass dros..then i can remove the extension..so the less permanent the better..


Hmmm. We're really in uncharted territory here.

An extension detachable from the barrel (i.e., not perm attached) could readily be regarded as "not a barrel" - and thus the barrel did not achieve the min. 6" length to get to exempt status. This is worrisome since such a sleeving device or muzzle attachment is unrifled has a much larger hole than boresize so there's no way it could be argued as part of barrel functionality.

At least with a perm. attached muzzle device we have guidance/grounding that that method is sufficiently good to bring barrel length up to avoid SBR vs. rifle issues, and thus it should serve well elsewhere.

I know this is not the answer you want to hear given your particular situation, but frankly it's the only one that makes sense to me.

ke6guj
06-09-2010, 12:01 AM
Hmmm. We're really in uncharted territory here.

An extension detachable from the barrel (i.e., not perm attached) could readily be regarded as "not a barrel" - and thus the barrel did not achieve the min. 6" length to get to exempt status. This is worrisome since such a sleeving device or muzzle attachment is unrifled has a much larger hole than boresize so there's no way it could be argued as part of barrel functionality.
and if they want to take that position, which does make sense, then they should not be able to claim that that non-permanent barrel attachment that happens to be threaded makes the barrel a threaded barrel and the handgun an AW if it is semi-auto with a detachable magazine. But I would bet that they would try to have it both ways to their benefit.

abusalim81
06-09-2010, 3:39 AM
I don't think you need a bullet button on regular pistols because the magazine is in the pistol grip so just a welded magazine sled should probably do the job. Maybe this will be a cool idea.

bwiese
06-09-2010, 10:03 AM
I don't think you need a bullet button on regular pistols because the magazine is in the pistol grip so just a welded magazine sled should probably do the job. Maybe this will be a cool idea.

Um, maybe not a BB but I beleive some sort of mag block locked down (i.e, using a blue gun traning mag held with nylon screw replacing mag catch in 1911) more closely demonstrates 'single-shot status', along with proper barrel length.

It's so cheap to do, why cut close to the edge?
Let's stick to the recipe.

Hudson
06-09-2010, 6:15 PM
ok so i will attach the extension..how about another question.

if the pistol has a bullet button and i can only use 10 shot mags as required by law..then can i attach a Flashider instead of a break ? since it is a 10 shot only gun ?

heres how i see it..



the barrel extension has to be tack welded not just clamped !
the pistol can have a long FLASH HIDER on it tack welded to extend the barrel lenth !
(just like a rifle)
the pistol must have a zero shot sled ,only feed one round at a time manually !
the pistol must have a bullet button aka/require the use of a tool to remove mags !
the pistol can only use 10 shot mags ! anything else would turn it into and AW !

once i dros the handgun the tack weld can be removed but the bullet button and 10 shot mag laws still apply !..

hows that sound ?

Hudson
06-09-2010, 6:26 PM
i want to tack weld a navy 3 lug flashider to the 3 lug barrel as its correct to the gun and from what makes sense to me it should be legal to do so..

It will give me more than 6 inch's as the 3 lug barrel on the 89 k's are 5 inch's i believe..

so it will put me at 7" or so and be correct looking..

the cohaire it the best "host" gun for this as its the only SP-89 model that comes with a 3 lug letting you do this.

also i dont think the Cohaire is actually threded

ke6guj
06-09-2010, 6:28 PM
ok so i will attach the extension..how about another question.

if the pistol has a bullet button and i can only use 10 shot mags as required by law..then can i attach a Flashider instead of a break ? since it is a 10 shot only gun ?

heres how i see it..



the barrel extension has to be tack welded not just clamped !
the pistol can have a long FLASH HIDER on it tack welded to extend the barrel lenth !
(just like a rifle)
the pistol must have a zero shot sled ,only feed one round at a time manually !
the pistol must have a bullet button aka/require the use of a tool to remove mags !
the pistol can only use 10 shot mags ! anything else would turn it into and AW !

once i dros the handgun the tack weld can be removed but the bullet button and 10 shot mag laws still apply !..

hows that sound ?

dude, you are confusing me with that post.

10-shot only doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you can have a flashhider instead of a muzzle brake.

In order to transfer in that CA89k, it has to be single-shot (zero-round sled with a fixed-maglock) and have a long enough barrel. some sort of barrel extension needingto be installed, pinned and welded or silver soldered probably best. tack weld may be acceptable, might not be.

Once you get it out of 10-day jail, there is no requirement that it stay in the original configuration.

Doesn't have to have a sled anymore. Can have a <11-round magazine installed, but it must still be in a fixed-mag configuration.

the barrel extension can be swapped out/removed as you wish.

look at the handgun AW flowchart to see how the law applies to it after you pick it up from the dealer, http://www.calguns.net/caawid/hgflowchart.pdf

Hudson
06-09-2010, 9:41 PM
thank you for the info and advice.

Confusing ? the whole damn law is confusing !.

Mstrty
06-09-2010, 9:55 PM
For Parts Click Here (http://www.gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Search.aspx?filter=1911+barrell)

Here is a mag sled
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=58450&stc=1&d=1276149063

Here is a barrell
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=58451&stc=1&d=1276149189

All you need is a chop saw to cut the barrell (not like your going to shoot it)
and a spare mag release that you grind down so It cant release the mag.

Hudson
06-09-2010, 10:00 PM
Doesn't have to have a sled anymore. Can have a <11-round magazine installed, but it must still be in a fixed-mag configuration


now your confusing me.

can you please explain how this is legal ?.

Hudson
06-09-2010, 10:17 PM
Bombmaster,

thats a barrel bushing wrench /magwell block for a 1911 ...
also that barrel if for a 1911.

neither will work in an MP-5 magwell..

i will have the smith working on them try to silver solder the FH to the 3 lug..

thanks for your help guys ..

Mstrty
06-09-2010, 10:20 PM
now your confusing me.

can you please explain how this is legal ?.

Because It is a single shot. what you know as a magazine is not a magazine.
A magazine is a feeding device. Your single shot will not have a feeding device. It will have a block in the handle. It might look like a mag but it is not it is a block in the handle that should be fixed, because why would you need to remove a block in the handle. Grind off feed ramp. To fire your single shot open the breach load a single shot. fire .. lock slide back repeat.
You now have what I believe is a roster exempt single shot pistol with a barrell length of length that 16" and an overall length greater than 10.5"

Also make sure you dont have anything orange attached to a real gun. Im not sure that is wise or legal. Might be confused with airsoft and their laws.

Mstrty
06-09-2010, 10:27 PM
Bombmaster,

thats a barrel bushing wrench /magwell block for a 1911 ...
also that barrel if for a 1911.

neither will work in an MP-5 magwell..

i will have the smith working on them try to silver solder the FH to the 3 lug..

thanks for your help guys ..
I was unaware you were working on a mp-5 I was just jumping in to the single shot options. I will be importing a single shot STI soon. Good luck on your build. I want to see pics when you are done.

Hudson
06-09-2010, 10:28 PM
Because It is a single shot. what you know as a magazine is not a magazine.
A magazine is a feeding device. Your single shot will not have a feeding device. It will have a block in the handle. It might look like a mag but it is not it is a block in the handle that should be fixed, because why would you need to remove a block in the handle. To fire your single shot open the breach load a single shot. fire .. lock slide back repeat.


Let me get this straight


So your telling me that it is perfectly legal to use a 11 shot or bigger mag in a CA-89 k that has a bullet button mag lock etc ?..if thats the case it would be legal to use a 11 round or bigger mag in a AR -15 pistol then..this is what your telling me ?

Hudson
06-09-2010, 10:30 PM
im more confused now ..then when i posted on this forum..

Quiet
06-09-2010, 10:31 PM
So your telling me that it is perfectly legal to use a 11 shot or bigger mag in a CA-89 k that has a bullet button mag lock etc ?..if thats the case it would be legal to use a 11 round or bigger mag in a AR -15 pistol then..this is what your telling me ?

NO.

A semi-auto pistol with a fixed magazine with a capacity greater than 10 rounds is an assault weapon.



Penal Code 12276.1
(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

Hudson
06-09-2010, 10:34 PM
NO.

A semi-auto pistol with a fixed magazine with a capacity greater than 10 rounds is an assault weapon.



Penal Code 12276.1
(a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(5) A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

yeah no ****..

i think this thred won the record on the worst advice ive ever been givin on a gun forum..

i will not ask for advice here again..

Hudson
06-09-2010, 10:35 PM
Wiese, i would like to thank you though.. you actually made sense..

Take Care..

Anchors
06-09-2010, 10:52 PM
It's been done. The problem is that these dimensionally compliant single shot conversions are expensive and there are a lot of rostered 1911s around.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/s281cobra/sass/DSCN1416.jpg

LOL there has to be a point when a CA politician sees stuff like this and just has to go "Hahahaha all right all right, we get it. Sorry about that dumb law."

ke6guj
06-09-2010, 10:59 PM
now your confusing me.

can you please explain how this is legal ?.

what was confusing in your post was the following, you had a long list, included where these

the pistol must have a zero shot sled ,only feed one round at a time manually !
...
the pistol can only use 10 shot mags ! anything else would turn it into and AW !it can't have both at the same time.

So, I explained what you needed to do to be roster compliant so that you could purchase it, and then what you could do with it afterwards after you got it out of jail.


Let me get this straight


So your telling me that it is perfectly legal to use a 11 shot or bigger mag in a CA-89 k that has a bullet button mag lock etc ?..if thats the case it would be legal to use a 11 round or bigger mag in a AR -15 pistol then..this is what your telling me ?I never said you could use a "11 shot or bigger mag". I said you could use a magazine that held less than 11 rounds. I even linked you to the handgun AW flowchart which covers magazine capacity.

yeah no ****..

i think this thred won the record on the worst advice ive ever been givin on a gun forum..

i will not ask for advice here again..what advice did you get that was bad?

I didn't see any bad advice given to you. Maybe bombmaster's info was not helpful to you, but since the thread started out as a 1911 thread and you necroposted and hi-jacked it into a MP5K-type thread, that could be understood that he missed that.

Dr Rockso
06-09-2010, 11:01 PM
Let me get this straight


So your telling me that it is perfectly legal to use a 11 shot or bigger mag in a CA-89 k that has a bullet button mag lock etc ?..if thats the case it would be legal to use a 11 round or bigger mag in a AR -15 pistol then..this is what your telling me ?

im more confused now ..then when i posted on this forum..

yeah no ****..

i think this thred won the record on the worst advice ive ever been givin on a gun forum..

i will not ask for advice here again..

I think you mistook ke6guj's less-than sign (<11) for a greater-than sign and that's where your confusion is coming from. I haven't seen any incorrect advice anywhere in this thread...

Just to be clear...you have to have a dimensionally compliant single shot handgun when you import it. Once you import it you have to follow pistol AW regs, but it no longer needs to be dimensionally complaint OR single shot.

Hudson
06-09-2010, 11:40 PM
I think you right..

and now that i re read this thred i see that Bombmaster didnt realize that i was talking about an mp-5 K clone when he was talking about a "block in the handle" which made me think he didnt know WTF he was talking about :confused:

ok.. this was a giant cluster ****..im a little less confused now..

Basically, the only difference between what i want to build and an typical AR or AK pistol is that the gun has a shorter than 6" barrel..
and my question was answered as to weather an extension could simply be clamped on or soldered pinned etc.



now that we have cleared the Air a little.. sorry for being bent outa shape .

i thought you guys were just fuggin with me :D