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View Full Version : My 11 year old daughter: "I do not consent to a search"


Fate
04-21-2010, 8:50 AM
Proud Pop here.

My daughter's school in LAUSD has been doing "random" physical searches of individuals in apparent violation of LAUSD policy and state/federal law. They pull 5-7 kids out of class and search them (pat down) and their backpacks.

My daughter asked me if they could do that and what grounds they had. So we looked it up.

Based on what we found in the law and LAUSD policy, there are only a few instances that the school can search a student.

1. If there's reasonable suspicion of that specific student related to a specific crime/violation, then a physical search may be made. They can't search a whole class if one person is suspected of something.

2. Random or full population searches are only valid for metal detector search. The school can pull 5 students out of a class to wand them and if reasonable suspicion of a weapon is present (wand going off repeatedly) a physical search is authorized. The full population search is legal only if entering a secure area and every person passing thru there is checked. Random searches must have pre-established pattern that must be followed. Administration can't just pick the 5 or 10 kids that look like trouble (or have even been in trouble in the past). It must be random and this type of search is limited to metal detector only. Nothing is stated even granting right to search/wand backpacks.

So my daughter now knows the limits of what is a legal and an illegal search. She's armed with the knowledge of how to deny consent to a search and knows about ways she might be tricked into mistakenly granting consent. She also has a copy of LAUSD policy regarding search parameters in her backpack.

She's a great kid. Honors and gifted student. High ability magnet school. Does not lie, cheat or steal. She's interested in right and wrong and unafraid to stand up for herself. So when she wanted to know more about her rights as a student and how it worked with the 4th Amendment to the Constitution, I was happy to help her understand her rights and work on some roleplaying scenarios.

I think she's gonna do fine.

chickenfried
04-21-2010, 8:52 AM
Dang it there you go creating one of those trouble making Americans that cares about rights.

Untamed1972
04-21-2010, 8:53 AM
Any thought of contacting the school to find out why they are conducting random illegal searches in violation of law and school policy?

383green
04-21-2010, 8:55 AM
:thumbsup:

Japsican
04-21-2010, 8:59 AM
Good for her...but watch out, she may be labeled a terrorist considering how ignorant some schools/teachers have THE WORLD has become.

...sorry, I fixed it...

Big Jake
04-21-2010, 9:01 AM
Proud Pop here.

My daughter's school in LAUSD has been doing "random" physical searches of individuals in apparent violation of LAUSD policy and state/federal law. They pull 5-7 kids out of class and search them (pat down) and their backpacks.

My daughter asked me if they could do that and what grounds they had. So we looked it up.

Based on what we found in the law and LAUSD policy, there are only a few instances that the school can search a student.

1. If there's reasonable suspicion of that specific student related to a specific crime/violation, then a physical search may be made. They can't search a whole class if one person is suspected of something.

2. Random or full population searches are only valid for metal detector search. The school can pull 5 students out of a class to wand them and if reasonable suspicion of a weapon is present (wand going off repeatedly) a physical search is authorized. The full population search is legal only if entering a secure area and every person passing thru there is checked. Random searches must have pre-established pattern that must be followed. Administration can't just pick the 5 or 10 kids that look like trouble (or have even been in trouble in the past). It must be random and this type of search is limited to metal detector only. Nothing is stated even granting right to search/wand backpacks.

So my daughter now knows the limits of what is a legal and an illegal search. She's armed with the knowledge of how to deny consent to a search and knows about ways she might be tricked into mistakenly granting consent. She also has a copy of LAUSD policy regarding search parameters in her backpack.

She's a great kid. Honors and gifted student. High ability magnet school. Does not lie, cheat or steal. She's interested in right and wrong and unafraid to stand up for herself. So when she wanted to know more about her rights as a student and how it worked with the 4th Amendment to the Constitution, I was happy to help her understand her rights and work on some roleplaying scenarios.

I think she's gonna do fine.



I am an LAUSD teacher and we do the same thing at the middle school I work at. Good for your daughter in standing up for herself!

chickenfried
04-21-2010, 9:02 AM
Some calgunners might give her a bad label too...

Good for her...but watch out, she may be labeled a terrorist considering how ignorant some schools/teachers have become.

khw9mm
04-21-2010, 9:04 AM
You raised a fine and smart child there. Good for you and even more so, good for her!!

paul0660
04-21-2010, 9:07 AM
Nice. LAUSD probably spent a quarter million writing the darn policy, it would be nice if they followed it.

onikuma
04-21-2010, 9:15 AM
congratulations on a good kid :)

Full Clip
04-21-2010, 9:18 AM
Nice. LAUSD probably spent a quarter million writing the darn policy, it would be nice if they followed it.

Rather than blow another pile of cash they don't have on a resulting lawsuit? Yes.

five.five-six
04-21-2010, 9:20 AM
Good for her...but watch out, she may be labeled a terrorist considering how ignorant some schools/teachers have become.

if that happens, you may not be able to order stuff from optics planet

Doheny
04-21-2010, 9:22 AM
Not to be the naysayer, but ask any cop; plenty of adults fold when asked to consent to a search; I think most 11 year olds would too.

Big Jake
04-21-2010, 9:24 AM
Nice. LAUSD probably spent a quarter million writing the darn policy, it would be nice if they followed it.

LAUSD is a joke! I like my job, however, the school district is in a shambles. If I could go to another district I would in a minute but no jobs available! :(

POLICESTATE
04-21-2010, 9:25 AM
Not to be the naysayer, but ask any cop; plenty of adults fold when asked to consent to a search; I think most 11 year olds would too.

Would be easier for a minor to deny because if they keep pressing or bugging them you instruct them to say "call my parents" and then stop talking or responding.

Big Jake
04-21-2010, 9:31 AM
Not to be the naysayer, but ask any cop; plenty of adults fold when asked to consent to a search; I think most 11 year olds would too.

This for sure!

paul0660
04-21-2010, 9:31 AM
LAUSD is a joke!


:threadjacked:

http://exlibhollywood.blogspot.com/2007/04/lausd-give-or-take-few-billion.html

I apologize.

Dr Rockso
04-21-2010, 9:41 AM
Shoot her with a Taser a couple of times so she'll be used to it...

(Joking, sorta...)

thefinger
04-21-2010, 9:46 AM
Very cool. Future DA maybe?

Stealth
04-21-2010, 9:50 AM
Funny but the OP's 11 year old daughter probably knows more than most 18+ year old adults on their rights.

Good for the OP. Wish more people educated themselves and their families like this.

AJAX22
04-21-2010, 9:55 AM
Would be easier for a minor to deny because if they keep pressing or bugging them you instruct them to say "call my parents" and then stop talking or responding.


I can't even imagine how badly I would flip out if my kid told them "I do not consent to a search, call my parents" and then they proceeded to search my kid anyway....

metalhead357
04-21-2010, 10:00 AM
Dang it there you go creating one of those trouble making Americans that cares about rights.


X1000000000






And psssst. She love you for a lifetime for it!;)

chickenfried
04-21-2010, 10:04 AM
:eek: Howdy stranger! LOL, I still haven't caught up to your post count :rofl:

Table Rock Arms
04-21-2010, 10:07 AM
Not to be the naysayer, but ask any cop; plenty of adults fold when asked to consent to a search; I think most 11 year olds would too.

Most people give in because they think they have to. If everyone knew they could refuse a lot more people would do so.

N6ATF
04-21-2010, 10:18 AM
Give her a VOX voice recorder as an early birthday present.

bwiese
04-21-2010, 10:26 AM
Not to be the naysayer, but ask any cop; plenty of adults fold when asked to consent to a search; I think most 11 year olds would too.

Yep, and this is why Fate's posting/description is all the more remarkable.

I will also note that besides consent issues, folks also try to talk their way out of a situation. Even if they're ultimately right, they likely dig themselves in a hole that takes extra work to dig out of. We've seen some of this in past CGF matters.

RangemasterP226
04-21-2010, 10:45 AM
Ya know, the school district isn't necessarily the enemy.

quick draw mcgraw
04-21-2010, 10:47 AM
Fate-

That is truly awesome!!

It makes me sick that our kids are taught to be obedient sheep in our schools while the administration fails to properly educate them and regularly violates their civil rights.

Kudos to you for arming her with knowledge and supporting her in her effort to stand up for her rights!! :thumbsup:

chuckdc
04-21-2010, 11:01 AM
Ya know, the school district isn't necessarily the enemy.

They become one when they start violating your rights, despite their OWN policy that is supposed to prevent them from doing so.

Fate
04-21-2010, 11:23 AM
I can't even imagine how badly I would flip out if my kid told them "I do not consent to a search, call my parents" and then they proceeded to search my kid anyway....

That's what lawsuits are for.

And to Doheny...I don't think she'll cave. This is a kid who in front of a school assembly put on by "Heal the Bay" (that spent an entire period harping on the evils of eternal plastic) asked the speaker why they were handing out bumper stickers made of plastic with their logo on it. The speaker had no answer.

Look out world. :43:

metalhead357
04-21-2010, 11:53 AM
Ya know, the school district isn't necessarily the enemy.


I'd normally agree but with the federal thrust into schools, the increased state input & mandates; the fact they amount to little more than either a component to the state or (now) an extension of law enforcement...... its getting harder to say they're not....... Start talking random searches on a lower threshold needed by cops to search and it all becomes suspect.............

sierratangofoxtrotunion
04-21-2010, 12:31 PM
:threadjacked:

http://exlibhollywood.blogspot.com/2007/04/lausd-give-or-take-few-billion.html

I apologize.

$30B budget for LAUSD? That's quite a claim, considering the entire state's k-12 budget is around $55B if I recall correctly.

timdps
04-21-2010, 12:52 PM
She also has a copy of LAUSD policy regarding search parameters in her backpack.


Sounds like a great kid!

Perhaps a few extra copies of the policy in the backpack would be handy, so she could hand them out to other students (and perhaps the people doing the searches...). ...Question Authority!

A parent complaint to the school probably would not hurt either.

Tim

quick draw mcgraw
04-21-2010, 1:03 PM
Sounds like a great kid!

Perhaps a few extra copies of the policy in the backpack would be handy, so she could hand them out to other students (and perhaps the people doing the searches...). ...Question Authority!




Have her pass out a bunch of the AW flowcharts and watch Admin. have a coronary!! :rofl:

winnre
04-21-2010, 1:19 PM
I'm all for searching the teachers and staff. If they have an aspirin on them they get expelled right?

The Vainguard
04-21-2010, 1:32 PM
She also has a copy of LAUSD policy regarding search parameters in her backpack.

Where could one find this?

tacticalcity
04-21-2010, 1:41 PM
Good for her.

Decoligny
04-21-2010, 1:45 PM
Where could one find this?

Google "LAUSD Search Policy" it will be the .pdf file at the top of the list.

tacticalcity
04-21-2010, 1:51 PM
I'd normally agree but with the federal thrust into schools, the increased state input & mandates; the fact they amount to little more than either a component to the state or (now) an extension of law enforcement...... its getting harder to say they're not....... Start talking random searches on a lower threshold needed by cops to search and it all becomes suspect.............

If you mean they are little more than babysitters and doing nothing to teach our kids and keep them out of jail, I might agree. If you mean there is some sort of collusion going on...you could not be more wrong. The school system treats law enforcement like the enemy, except when they need them at which point they become a slave, then when the incident is over they go right back to being the enemy again.

I have a friend who up until he switched departments a month ago was a school resource officer up here in Northern California. Believe me when I tell you there is no love loss or spirit or cooperation between school administrators and law enforcement. They tend to be very, very liberal and resent the hell out the on campus officers.

Ironically my friend was a teacher for many years before becoming a police officer. He even worked with several of the staff in the past and was on good terms with them at that time. Yet they still treated him with resentment once he became their school resource officer. Even in uniform he is the kindest, friendliest person you will ever meet and did nothing to warrant the resentment they demonstrated toward him. They treated him with disdain the moment he arrived, and even his warm personality could not sway their opinion of law enforcement. They had their minds made up about every member of law enforcement, and no amount of evidence to the contrary was going to change their opinion. Just goes to show just how deeply liberalism has penetrated the belief system of our educators. When someone as kind a him is treated like a fascist simply from being in uniform, something is terribly wrong. Now if it were me they disliked, I would understand. I am cocky as can be. He on the otherhand is as kind and respectful as they come.

nrvnqsrxk
04-21-2010, 1:59 PM
So my daughter now knows the limits of what is a legal and an illegal search. She's armed with the knowledge of how to deny consent to a search and knows about ways she might be tricked into mistakenly granting consent. She also has a copy of LAUSD policy regarding search parameters in her backpack.

She's a great kid. Honors and gifted student. High ability magnet school. Does not lie, cheat or steal. She's interested in right and wrong and unafraid to stand up for herself. So when she wanted to know more about her rights as a student and how it worked with the 4th Amendment to the Constitution, I was happy to help her understand her rights and work on some roleplaying scenarios.

I think she's gonna do fine.

Your kid, sir, is full of win. I can only hope that my kid will be as high achieving as yours.

The Vainguard
04-21-2010, 2:12 PM
I have a friend who up until he switched departments a month ago was a school resource officer up here in Northern California. Believe me when I tell you there is no love loss or spirit or cooperation between school administrators and law enforcement. They tend to be very, very liberal and resent the hell out the on campus officers.

The random searches are often conducted by deans rather than on campus officers.

longarmshortlegs
04-21-2010, 2:12 PM
Man, you should really stir something up. Rig your child up with a camera; a Flip (small camera) or some other video recorder. Have her catch a glimps of others being searched.

If you sent this info to the news media they would probably ignore it because they hate controversial issues like this. You'd probably get the same response from the rest of the parents.

H.M.
04-21-2010, 2:19 PM
Fate,
Congrats on raising such a great kid. At 11! Can't imagine how much good she'll be doing at 18.

Be careful on the VOX recorder and FLIP cam recording. Don't want her inadvertently running into the laws against audio recording.

Give her our encouragement.

tacticalcity
04-21-2010, 2:29 PM
The random searches are often conducted by deans rather than on campus officers.

I could see how that could happen. If it were to fall within any administrators job description when actually warranted and legal, it would be a Dean (or in my case the Vice Principle). A lot of schools do not have resource officers assigned. The few that do are very short handed.

I had bad luck with the majority of Vice Principles I encountered in school. I was a good kid, who rarely got into trouble. The few times I landed in front of Vice Principles usually went badly. No consideration of the facts, just punishment for the sake of punishment. I was a kid, so I was lying...after all, my mouth was moving wasn't it? There was one exception. My Vice Principle in high school had a great head on her shoulders. When you were in the wrong, you got punished harshly. When you were in the right she was the first to rush to your defense. She did not always get it right, but made every effort to be fair. She took a real interest in the lives of her students and did make a difference. No matter how bad a kid was, she did not play favorites or persecute anyone. She just did her job, and did it well. She was the only Vice Principle I met that was not an ego maniac or on some sort of power trip - and I transferred schools several times due to moves so I met a lot of them.

bohoki
04-21-2010, 2:37 PM
so has she practiced what you preached?

The Vainguard
04-21-2010, 3:16 PM
"The student is to give his/her personal belongings, as described above, to a search team member. These articles shall then be physically searched only to the degree necessary to affirm that no firearms are concealed therein."

I agree with the OP and everyone here that random searches are well... Giving up some of our rights. But by this statement, there are no guidelines within that clarify the "degree necessary" which may be judged by the person searching. After reading the search policy multiple times, I have deliberated that the metal detection is only applied to the student him/herself.

It's loopholes like these that allow deans and other school officials get around the rules without any repercussions.

Policy: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Wi486D6uph8J:www.lausd.net/District_4/pdf/school_operations/BUL%25201824.0%2520Random%2520Metal%2520Detector%2 520Searches.pdf+LAUSD+Search+Policy&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESh68D78G7T4fIOajq_6g5I6HZ8Myk72EZjwful-wempw-2OuwLBx1JdZl530EP0Cevtd0FMtlM5gek2AWWQ5mvT4ySh2MER 6jVEXibihO3NMuLGWJOZyPmCqw5lT2ysDHENjF92&sig=AHIEtbQjX1N7kmmjutbgdSFw06eilLFZuQ

Fate
04-21-2010, 3:58 PM
so has she practiced what you preached?

It's been one day. She hasn't been searched yet ;)

Fate
04-21-2010, 4:01 PM
Where could one find this?

The PDF linked in earlier post is the Metal Detector search guidelines. Those are also separated in the LAUSD Student Handbook from physical searches. The Metal Detector search is not the same as a physical search, nor do the requirements/procedures cross over.

Here's a link to the LAUSD Student Handbook for 2009-10. Search policies are on Page 18. I don't know where this elementary school is, but they had the handbook online. It's the same throughout the LAUSD.

http://www.harrisonelementary.org/ourpages/auto/2009/5/6/53657166/HANDBOOK_ENGA.pdf?rn=2917655

oni
04-21-2010, 5:20 PM
Harrison Elementary is located it East LA.

LAUSD is also notorius at breaking there own policies. There is a reason the top 10 people on payroll are lawyers.

Fate:
You and your daughter are awesome in my book. Keep up the good work (parenting) and I only hope I will be as good a parent someday.

destro360
04-21-2010, 7:58 PM
watch how mad any leo gets when you stand up for your rights and obey "the law" i have had leo threaten to arrest me for refusing search. they will try to threaten intimidate and provoke violence and anger from you so that they can violate you and your freedoms. protect yourselves know the laws and stand up for your rights.

guntntteacher
04-21-2010, 7:58 PM
I'm all for searching the teachers and staff. If they have an aspirin on them they get expelled right?

I would love that vacation!!! expell me!!!!

Board policy might not uphold. In my district they used to bring int he drug and weapon dogs. Now they just search the district provided lockers. Most the trouble makers get caught because they run to their lockers to get their stuff.

The medicine thing kind of sucks, but considering if a student ODs at school the school is lilable for the OD because they did not search and protect the student from the students. Its kind of a catch 22

ned946
04-21-2010, 10:20 PM
I love reading stories like this.

It restores my faith in the America I want for my children.

Wild Squid
04-21-2010, 10:30 PM
When I was in the 9th grade my parents sent me off to a tightly ran private Christian school where one day they tried to sit me down and cut off my hair cause they didn't like the style. I didn't know my rights back then so I just sucker punched the guy with scissors straight on the button and dared them to throw me out since that was what I wanted. I didn't get thrown out but at least I kept my hair.

metalhead357
04-22-2010, 6:53 AM
If you mean they are little more than babysitters and doing nothing to teach our kids and keep them out of jail, I might agree.

If you mean there is some sort of collusion going on...you could not be more wrong. The school system treats law enforcement like the enemy, except when they need them at which point they become a slave, then when the incident is over they go right back to being the enemy again..

Good to hear the collusion is not going on. There's some fine line out there between safety and stoooopidity. I'm all for safe schools- but not at the expense of anyone's rights. As far as the babysitting goes....not to threadjack but if you truly know any teachers then that *could* be a true statement but for the vast majority of them its a thankless job with the irony of a love/hate relationship with administrators, the kids and the public at any given time..........

corrupt
04-25-2010, 1:25 AM
Ugh. I went through LA public schools, to include magnet schools, in the early 90's. Not fun. Hell, they even put me in the highly-gifted classes, that's how much those schools sucked back then.

People ask me sometimes if Iraq or whatever affected me. I always tell them growing up in downtown LA had a much greater impact on me, and then I laugh. Sometimes people comment on how much SA I have. Situational awareness I mean. I just laugh and think to myself: Yeah well, having people tell you, "we're gonna do you like denny", try and taunt you with guns, actually seeing drive-bys that aren't in a movie, constant gunfire and helicopters overhead, not to mention a honest to god riot a block away.. that tends to hone the old self-preservation skills. And I thought it was normal and never complained one minute to my parents. I thought that's what all kids dealt with... hahaha.

I'm glad that your daughter is questioning those kinds of things. She must have a Dad who cares about what is going on in her life. It's important that you ask your children things and tell them basic things, otherwise they just won't know what is right or wrong. I don't blame my parents for not really seeing all the crazy stuff that happened to me, but they were pretty oblivious. Good on you, sir (OP).

dantodd
04-25-2010, 1:31 PM
When I was in the 9th grade my parents sent me off to a tightly ran private Christian school where one day they tried to sit me down and cut off my hair cause they didn't like the style. I didn't know my rights back then so I just sucker punched the guy with scissors straight on the button and dared them to throw me out since that was what I wanted. I didn't get thrown out but at least I kept my hair.

Private school is far different than government run schools. The school should have kicked you out until your parents got you in shape to participate.

Pont
04-25-2010, 9:38 PM
Man, you should really stir something up. Rig your child up with a camera; a Flip (small camera) or some other video recorder. Have her catch a glimps of others being searched.

If you sent this info to the news media they would probably ignore it because they hate controversial issues like this. You'd probably get the same response from the rest of the parents.
They'll confiscate (at least until you come pick it up in the office) any "unauthorized electronic device" in an instant.

Searches at school may be a legally contested area, but the schools' ability to regulate the use of electronic devices during school hours is not.