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Supernam
02-24-2006, 12:08 AM
I notice that there are so many aftermarket parts and accessories for shotguns these days. Mesa Tactical, Advanced Tactical, etc. So many pistol grips, picatinny forends, shell holders, and even optics. I love the essence of my 18" 870 Express because of its pure, all-business form. No slings to get in the way, no coil wire leading to a light, no cheap plactic parts, and no optics to fail. I feel that there is too much of tactiCOOLness going on with shotgunners these days. I notice in photos of true tactical operators that there may be only a few accessories, namely Speedfeed Pistol grip stocks, Surefire forends, Side Saddles, and maybe a sling. But if you notice, all of these accessories have their place for the tactical operator. The pistol grip stock is for those wearing vests, side saddles for carrying a variety of shells to suit the situational needs, and a sling so they can access their sidearm. I feel that for a typical homebound defender, a surefire forend is the only accessory that may be necessary for home defense. Call me a pragmatist, but I feel that over accessorizing a home defense tool is actually counter productive and is NOT so high-speed-low-drag if you will.

Now, I admit that accessorizing firearms is a fun hobby, but for a dedicated home defense weapon, I suggest the KISS rule. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

I just wanted to hear anyone elses oppinions on this.

grammaton76
02-24-2006, 12:20 AM
I totally agree about coils and wires - they're one thing I won't put on any shotgun of mine. They may provide some fun and games, but on a pump shotgun, your off hand should be staying on the pump, and if your pressure pad is on the pump, then your coil COULD get jammed in it and wind up getting you killed.

Lasers, flashlights, etc - I only have two rules:

1. It doesn't add wires anywhere that might EVER snag, melt, or jam a moving part. I'm not a big fan of external pressure pads either.
2. It doesn't interfere with iron sights.

As long as those two rules are followed, I'm not adverse to lights, lasers, etc - they can either have push-button stay-on activators, rule-1-adherent pressure pads, or something fancy and elaborate like the Crimson Trace setup.

That rules out the majority of "Tacti-cool" accessories, but those which make the cut, I don't mind. If something doesn't contribute significantly to the weapon but also doesn't reduce its functionality any, that's not a huge problem to me.

MadMex
02-24-2006, 3:45 AM
Accessorize to fit the situation. Train with and maintain the equipment. Although one person’s KISS leaves another perplexed, there’s no correct answer. For example, I’m not a fan of lights mounted on firearms, and have a Speedfeed IVs on my 870 for reasons entirely different than mentioned. I’m a minimalist regarding accessories for my HD firearms and accessories at will with my fun firearms.

Mesa Tactical
02-24-2006, 6:32 AM
As tactical shotguns are increasingly being employed as .72 caliber carbines, then accessories commonly seen - and proved useful - on carbines will increasingly be fitted to tactical shotguns. That's all there is to the trend. Savvy urban operators regard the shotgun as far more than a breaching tool.

That being said, note that every accessory fitted to a shotgun adds:

a) Weight;
b) Protrusions that will catch on webbing and gear;
c) System complexity.

So there is a definite trade-off. Generally, less is best; use the tools that enhance your specific application.

Then there is what we call hot-rodding. That's a whole nuther thing. It's exactly like car hot-rodding, in which hobbyists bling up their weapons just for the fun of it. Nothing wrong with that, as long as you know why you are doing it. Take a look at the photos threads on AR15.com (the rifle photos): almost all those weapons are blinged to the max and no one is going to convince me that all those gewgaws bolted onto them are "necessary accessories" for a "SHTF scenario." It's mostly for fun, and there really needs to be more fun in the world.

When we exhibit at trade shows and such, we bling up our shotguns like crazy. But then, we have a lot of products and only have a few shotguns in the booth, so we need to show a lot of stuff on each shotgun. But in actual use, professional operators will normally have much more streamlined platforms.

Regarding home defense, I think we even say on our website that the best shotgun for the home defender who does not intend to do a lot of training is the plain Jane Mossberg Pursuader on sale at Big 5 every couple months.

dwtt
02-24-2006, 11:31 AM
I agree with Superman. I personally avoid the 'tactical' accessories, but only use what works for my needs. My Rem 1100 has the original wood stock and 26" barrel with bead sight. It has a 7-shot magazine extension, a side saddle, and a sling. I use it for 3-gun. My Fabarm pump shotgun has a magazine extension, nothing else.That one is for home use.

TonyM
02-24-2006, 12:17 PM
Take a look at the photos threads on AR15.com (the rifle photos): almost all those weapons are blinged to the max and no one is going to convince me that all those gewgaws bolted onto them are "necessary accessories" for a "SHTF scenario."

Hey,

Don't you know that everyone on AR15.com is an "Operator" in their off hours? That's not Bling, those prestine looking scratch and dust free rifles with $9k in NV optics really get used! :D ;)

sargenv
02-24-2006, 12:46 PM
Personally, I shoot my Gold for everything. Duck hunting I take the mag tube off and put the plug back in and it's good for hunting. I leave the side saddle on it though, I seem to need shells when chasing after game and I forgot my vest/jacket/etc. When I shoot 2 or 3 gunmatches with it, I put the extended tube on it, take the plug out, and now I'm 8+1 Limited legal. The side saddle stays on it, so no need to add to it. I might change the chokes from Imp to Mod but that's about it.

This is a standard 3" Gold hunter, wood stocked, 28" Invector plus barrel. Those who see it usually comment on "pretty wood". :D

It's not Bling or tactical or anything, but it works really well be it plates, poppers, Classic IPSC targets (slugs), ducks, geese, or other critter(s).

Vince

jessegpresley
02-24-2006, 1:00 PM
You go to any gun forum, and there's always those grumpy old timers complaining about accessories on shotguns, and how their tried and true Ithaca with wood furniture is their go to shotgun.

Great. Wonderful. But there certainly is an elitist bias against placing accessories on a shotgun. I've seen lots of overkill, but I don't why having a sling and a sight on a shotgun would be frowned upon. People say having a long gun without a sling is like having a pistol without a holster.

sargenv
02-24-2006, 1:14 PM
Slings are useful. In fact for years I'd use of those those slip on kind because I didn't like drilling the wood on my gun. For a plastic stocked gun, they are usually already attached. In my case, having a sling meant that I could go to and from wherever I was going and carry more junk with me. Generally decoys while hunting and these days, my rifle bag and ammo bag while shooting 2-gun/3-gun competitions. It's something I've kind of missed lately but usually forget about it until I need it.

My dad has one on his special camoflaged gold hunters.. He uses it because he has to carry other stuff with him. I think the mentality of the old timers and no slings harkens back to the British Blue Bloods.. where they have servants carrying their fine doubles for them. Yes, people DO spend $10,000 on a shotgun! :D

Vince

Black_Talon
02-24-2006, 4:36 PM
Call me a pragmatist, but I feel that over accessorizing a home defense tool is actually counter productive and is NOT so high-speed-low-drag if you will.

Now, I admit that accessorizing firearms is a fun hobby, but for a dedicated home defense weapon, I suggest the KISS rule. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

I just wanted to hear anyone elses oppinions on this.

I agree, I don't see the point of all the extra gizmo's on what's generally considered to be "HD" weapon. It just more stuff to get in the way, and something else to go wrong.

This is how my 870 "HD" gun has been set up for the past 30 years:
http://www.black-talon.org/RKBA/SG/870P_1975_FT_03_0900.jpg

It goes *bang* every time, is quick into action and easy to maneuver. I just can't see needing anything else for a house gun in Kali.

MadMex
02-24-2006, 5:50 PM
I just can't see needing anything else for a house gun in Kali.
It entirely depends on what one calls home, and the type of situation prepared for. Is preparation strictly for bump in the night, a Kali style Katrina remake, or both? I live on acreage, have an out building and remote well and water storage tank. These are circumstances that may require protecting assets outside of the home. There’s been a time or two that prompted me to “investigate” armed with both shotgun and sidearm. A single point, quick release sling came in handy. Again, there’s no right or wrong if the accessories are matched to the need.

shecky
02-24-2006, 8:03 PM
I find this sort of thing a bit silly.

http://www.atigunstocks.com/zoom/HRN4100.jpg

But I think there's plenty of room for some accessories. Even in real life situations.

douglasmorris99
02-25-2006, 7:00 AM
played with a few "Tacticool" items,,(like that phrase) on my shotguns over the years...
I am a former soldier with battlefield experience and LEO, deputy and reserve deputy for 10 years in 2 large cities,
now just a cook..

ended up with the following through trial and error and weight compensation and what worked and what didnt.

870
zytel fore stock
7rd mag ext with clamp
heat shield
side saddle
original wood stock with skate board tape where my hand grips it

1100
pistol grip choate set
laser sight, cause it was free and its sort of cool and has held up for over 300 rds so far.
side saddle
thats all..

crs1
02-25-2006, 8:48 AM
I find this sort of thing a bit silly.

http://www.atigunstocks.com/zoom/HRN4100.jpg

But I think there's plenty of room for some accessories. Even in real life situations.


What's even more funny is that no matter what you add to those things, they are still single shot, break open to load....Yeah, that's tactical.:D

gunsnrovers
02-25-2006, 9:00 AM
My 870 is pretty basic. It was an ex-LEO shotgun with lots of external rack wear, but with a slick and solid action.

I put on a Hogue short LOP stock because it fit and when I bought it, it had a long Remington synthetic stock which didn't fit me at all.

The Meprolight front bead replaced the mashed front bead it had.

I like the idea of a light. It's pretty dark at night and the idea of knowing what I am shooting at is nice. I don't use it to find the target, just a quick blip to ID before I shoot. Mine sports a rail forearm and a LED light.

I also have 5 rounds on a butt cuff. I keep it that way as it's a house gun and I have a 4 year old. The gun is kept with an empty tube.

I have a sling for it, but I do not believe in slings for HD use.

Ironballs
02-26-2006, 4:33 AM
plane jane 870 here, plus Vanged bbl and specops stock- better grouping and less recoil and better fit means daddy trains with it more.... all mods are high speed low drag...

i could maybe see an m3 light one day (like on the nose of my hd glock), so i can tell friend from foe better at night,... form follows function

anything more than necessary, just aint-

jdberger
03-04-2006, 12:11 AM
Check out the BLING!!!


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/jdberger/DSC01325.jpg

Yup, you guessed it, that pig is sportin' a TWENTY inch barrel......and a rollmarked game scene of some sort on the receiver......

BooYaahhhh!

wheelgunner
03-04-2006, 3:42 AM
I personally prefer the more the better... LOL

Let me state that I have no tactical experience.

Really, it depends on what you want to do with it.

Trap, skeet, ppc long gun, 3 gun, home defense, sand box, hunting???

Basics with no BS extras. I do not think you can go wrong.

Competition tactical, for me with old eyes, red dot sights are magic for me. A 20 year old something shooter, the red dot would probably get in their way.

I like slings so I don't have to carry the shotgun with my hands, however slings can get in the way.

Tac light is good for me, because it is hard to operate a shotgun and hold a flashlight at the same time.

Ammo- at this time I do not carry it on my shotgun.

Black Majik
03-04-2006, 12:31 PM
I agree with many of you to leave all the accessories off. I'm definitely a believer in the KISS aspect for a defensive weapon. Accessories add weight, which makes the shotgun less maneuverable. For me, I even leave the side saddle, butt cuff and sling off of my HD shotgun.

I'm a strong believer in leaving the sling off of a HD shotgun. There really is no practical use for it. You're not gonna go carrying around your shotgun around the house, most of the time its gonna just sit in its little corner waiting to be used. All it can really do is snag on something, or even worse "when" you do have to use it. Slings can snag on doorknobs, or get caught on something and bring it to the ground making noise. Theres really no practical use for a sling on a home defense weapon. Its not like I'm gonna go tactical and clear every room in my house searching for the intruder. All I'm gonna do is get my family and retreat into the bedroom. I'll let the PD clear my house for me.

Sidesaddles are nice, but they add weight. If I want more rounds I'll just have a ext. magazine tube that will carry more rounds in the shotgun. I'm not looking for a fire fight. I'm probably not gonna end up reloading if the shotgun is needed. So, I therefore also see no reason for a sidesaddle or butt cuff.

Surefire weapon light. This is a toss-up. It might be a nice thing to have. I believe its good to identify your target, but I dont prefer weapon mounted lights since I dont want to point at family members to identify them. Of course I can point elsewhere and the surrounding light will idetify the person, but having a surefire forearm is just one more thing to worry about.

So for me, no tacticool shotguns for me. I dont' believe in ghost ring with tritium inserts, no super duper 3 point slings, no sidesaddles, no fiber optic front sights, no jumbo safeties, no compensated barrels, no hi-vis folowers, no surefire lights, no wires hanging off... If I ever feel the need to call on my trusty shotgun, I believe the operator is what makes the shotgun do its job, not the add-ons.

So for me, I have a shotgun that I feel suits my needs the best. Something simple, yet effective. Something still modified to suit what I feel is necessary.

Only thing I have is an old school blued Remington 870 12 ga. Wingmaster with a 18.5" barrel, factory +2 magazine extension, and express wood. I didn't feel the need for shiny glossy wood on my HD shotgun, therefore I felt better suited with a matte finished wood.

Even my home defense pistol has no bells and whistles. Stock Colt Government without any ext. thumb safties, no front cocking serrations, no beavertail, no magwell, no ski ramped night sights, no FLGR.... KISS :)

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/RChang824/HD11-28-05.jpg

Sorry my post got a little long. Good day. :D

whonosewhose
03-07-2006, 12:17 AM
Heheh... I do understand about simplicity being a good thing.

but I just couldn't help it myself, its just cool to build a crazy mean looking tactical shotgun

Heres what is next to my bed loaded with 10 in the mag, 1 in the chamber


I see it as, I wont be worrying about reloading..and in the dark I'll know where im aiming without having a flashlight on it to make me a target.
If the person brings 5 of his friends, I've got enough rounds to keep myself alive.
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a28/AidanN20/Guns/tacshotgun3.jpg

Brass Balls
03-07-2006, 5:01 AM
Don't know if mine meets with everyone's approval, but don't care either. It works great for me and the coil cord puts the light switch in a much more intuitive, user friendly location.

The shotgun is a Remington Competition Master.

http://home.comcast.net/~1911brass/HD_Shotgun.jpg

Omega13device
03-07-2006, 5:38 AM
One other thing to think about is that if you end up in court (for whatever reason) after a home defense shooting, a blinged out shotgun may make it easier for the other side to portray you as an armchair commando just looking for an excuse to shoot someone.

ArmedBear
03-07-2006, 6:01 AM
A shotgun is made to fit and to be pointed, with the shooter's eyes focused on the target. This takes skill and practice, and it's way different from the way most rifles and handguns are intended to be aimed.

For home defense, though, that means that there are few if any accessories that make sense.

A flashlight? It just blinds you to a potential second adversary and indicates your position more clearly, and it throws off the important balance of the shotgun.

Magazine extension? Some people don't even like those because they mess up the gun's balance and weigh it down. It's a toss-up, since shotguns can be "topped off" easily at any time without even taking them off the shoulder

A laser? A distraction to someone who knows how to shoot a shotgun.

Ghost rings? PLEASE! It takes a good deal longer to use rifle-style sights than it does to use a plain shotgun, if you know how. And they're invisible in the dark unless you use night sights, which are another distraction from what's really important: the intruder who threatens your life. You don't need rifle sights to hit an intruder 10 feet away, if you can hit a moving clay pigeon 30 yards away by using proper shotgun pointing technique.

Extra shells might give an extra measure of confidence, though it is unlikely you will need them for home defense. On the other hand, riots do happen, and buttstock cuffs are really cheap.

And I won't even get INTO heat shields...:)

A recoil-absorbing stock could be good, but only if it fits the shooter. I do question whether an M4-style buttstock really fits most people well enough to shoot a shotgun as intended, or provides a good cheek-weld, but I haven't tried it.

If the gun is used for competition, hey, all that stuff could be useful. But for close-range home defense, light, simple and reliable make the most sense to me. I shoot shotguns a lot and am confident in my ability to put shot on target with a familiar gun without anything extra sticking out of it.

What's important to remember is that a shotgun is not a rifle, and that most everything you know about rifle shooting is a liability when you learn to shoot a shotgun.

Brass Balls
03-07-2006, 6:21 AM
I think a mounted light makes sense when there are multiple family members in a dwelling as it can enable one to clearly identify the target. However I don't like a shotgun for house clearing so the light would be used to light up a hallway or stairway from preplanned defensive positions. A light certainly does give your position away, but used properly the beam of light can be followed almost instantaneously with 00 buckshot.

jmho, not trying to convince anyone else about what's best for them.

ArmedBear
03-07-2006, 9:24 AM
With modern technology, a small but bright flood LED light mounted on the side of the receiver makes sense. You don't need it to be super bright, just to have a good wide beam.

A big heavy flashlight on the slide makes no sense to me, though.

BTW if you don't mind giving away your position in the dark, modern LED headlamps are great. They're light and they let you look around freely in ways that a shotgun light does not. I am concerned about a gun-mounted light creating black spots that I can't see and thus being a liability. In a hallway, that's not a problem, of course.

crs1
03-07-2006, 3:14 PM
Don't forget too that you can use your homefield to your advantage when someone breaks into your home. I can move all over my house at night without light...its called night vision (no, not the electric optics, the God given kind). Also, my dog would probably be a better judge of a hostile at night than I, having been suddenly awoken from a slumber. The point is, sometimes you may be better off hiding behind the couch, then planting a nine iron in the grill of the intruder than messing with lasers, lights, red dots, loading up ammo, etc.

I have found that the M4 stock is handy in that it can serve to shorten the length of pull for tactical situations, or heavy clothing, then lengthened for other shooting...and it looks cool...But that's pretty much it.

ArmedBear
03-07-2006, 7:31 PM
WRT the stock, even there I'd rather have a stock that fits like what I shoot when I shoot trap or go hunting. Makes pointing a lot easier and more accurate.

crs1
03-08-2006, 7:34 AM
What if you have a thick jacket on or something...Or your wife need to shoot it...Just playing advocate:D

-hanko
03-08-2006, 10:31 AM
You go to any gun forum, and there's always those grumpy old timers complaining about accessories on shotguns, and how their tried and true Ithaca with wood furniture is their go to shotgun.
Not quite an old timer:D . The Ithaca is still the smoothest operating pump:p . Easier/faster to load, and empty shells eject downward so it's also ideal if you're a southpaw.

Read Armed Bear's posts; I think generally your better off to spend the money on more shells & practice v. create something that's too heavy to effectlively point & shoot.

-hanko

ArmedBear
03-08-2006, 11:48 AM
Not quite an old timer:D . The Ithaca is still the smoothest operating pump:p . Easier/faster to load, and empty shells eject downward so it's also ideal if you're a southpaw.

Read Armed Bear's posts; I think generally your better off to spend the money on more shells & practice v. create something that's too heavy to effectlively point & shoot.

-hanko
I'm not that old, either.

But you know, go to any gun forum, and there are a few Tactical Tommies who have a mag extension AND a sidesaddle, big old flashlight, and some other crap hanging on their shotgun for "home defense", and the first thing you know when they start going off is...

They have absolutely NO IDEA how to shoot a shotgun.:p

crs1
03-08-2006, 1:13 PM
I would agree with that 100% if you concede that there are different methods for different situations, different ways to shoot a shotgun. Someone who spends their time shooting in tactical situations can't apply the same techniques on a 'clays course. Tactical shooting squares you off against a target. You can't square yourself up with the longer pull of a clays or trap gun.

Just like different guns for every situation. A shotgun with EoTech, red dots and lights of all flavors may be good for tactical entry (when you can turn on everything before you go in), but are you going to tell me that you would use the same gun for home defense? Waking up in the middle of the night, turning on all that crap, combined with the stress of the situation? You would be better off with something bare bones simple or a baseball bat.

ArmedBear
03-08-2006, 3:09 PM
There are primarily a couple of ways to use a shotgun.

1. To shoot moving targets.
2. As a brute force weapon at close range.

Real tactical shooting is about a lot besides shooting. See this http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/CCI_Shotgun.asp for a quick summary of what I mean.

The point of shotgun competition where you stand and shoot at a still target escapes me, but a lot of stuff does. Blunderbus shooting takes practice, too. I guess it teaches you to get back on target quickly and to not be scared of the recoil.

So I guess that depends on what you mean by "tactical."

A HD shotgun is essentially a modern blunderbus. You can improve its utility and accuracy on moving targets by shooting it more like a field shotgun, which is to say, to point it well and use your body.

A real tactical shotgun, used by SWAT and SpecOps with similar missions, is a brute-force, offensive entry weapon. Therefore, it can take various forms, as you say, because you can turn on all the doo-hickeys before you blast through the door.

Home defense is a different mission.

crs1
03-09-2006, 9:50 AM
Agreed, I think we are on the same page here...Next subject.:)

Justang
03-10-2006, 11:52 PM
I am also a purist. I have 2 Mossberg 500's. One is my traditional shotty, nothing but a sling added. Although I want a slug gun, so I may get a new barrel with rifle sights. My other is my home defense. It has the Knoxx recoil reducing pistol grip with folding stock.

I also have an old Stevens 12ga with a 28" barrel. It was my grandpappy's shotgun when he was young and living on a farm. I really never shoot it.

Brass Balls
03-11-2006, 6:22 AM
But you know, go to any gun forum, and there are a few Tactical Tommies who have a mag extension AND a sidesaddle, big old flashlight, and some other crap hanging on their shotgun for "home defense", and the first thing you know when they start going off is...

They have absolutely NO IDEA how to shoot a shotgun.:p

So you know what you're doing, but folks who have their shotgun setup different than you should be called names and they don't know how to shoot? Strong argument. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

taloft
03-11-2006, 11:30 PM
I personally don't like lights on my weapons. The BG may not see you but, he sure can see the light. You know, the one bolted to the gun 2' in front of your face. I'm sure as hell not bolting it to my head! If he shoots at the light, you're screwed. If I'm going to use it for home defense, then I'm going to take a defensive position. That means I can put a mag light on the floor of the master bedroom, and shoot anything that comes through the door. This is providing that the lights in the house are down. Sometimes you just need to try a switch.:D I will call the PD, and wait till they arrive. They can do the room to room.
I have nothing in my house worth dying for except my family. If I have to round up the family, I do it with a handgun and a maglight. Parkerized is about the only thing I really like in a HD gun. Ghost rings are B.S. you don't have to be a marksman with a shotgun when the target is right in front of you. I'm not opposed to extended tubes but, I don't require them. If you need more shots than the shotgun can normally hold, something has gone very, very wrong. If all that stuff makes you feel better then go for it. Of course, your mileage may vary.:p :D

This has been just one opinion.

CowtownBallin
03-13-2006, 4:38 PM
One great thing about America is being able to cash my paycheck and take it to a store and buy something I like. Maybe you like your 870 unmolested and simple..maybe you read a paper map to get directions. Some people choose to spend the extra $1500 for the DVD navigation system in their cars. It's their money, let them spend it as they please :D You don't have to like it, but then again, it's not your money they're spending