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View Full Version : Help me educate a seller re: long guns (generally) not registered


Psy Crow
04-19-2010, 1:18 PM
I'm currently trying to educate a seller that his C&R rifle is not registered and that the FFL he bought it from is the only one with a record of the sale. The seller wants to make sure "his name is off" the rifle. He spoke to his FFL and the FFL told him he would need to do a PPT to be legal. (IMO the FFL sees an opportunity to make a few $$$.)

I've given the seller printouts of PC 12078(t)(2), question 14 of the CA AG Public FAQ (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#9), and this CA AG bulletin (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/infobuls/9824.pdf#xml=http://search.doj.ca.gov:8004/AGSearch/isysquery/b2680053-90b8-48bf-a502-8447d7831fa3/4/hilite/) indicating private party transfers of C&R long guns are an exception to the DROS requirement.

As I understand CA law, long guns are not registered as part of the DROS process, and that DOJ is required by law to destroy long gun DROS info transmitted to them after 30 days.

Searching the Calguns forums turns up many statements of "long guns are not registered" and "data destroyed after 30 days", but no cite of law (or lack of law) to back up these statements.

I'm looking for cites of the above in CA law or applicable regulations. I've searched CA Code and the calgunswiki with no luck.

OTOH, if the seller did voluntarily register is there any requirement to do a PPT through an FFL? Or would a voluntary registration (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/volreg.pdf)? on my part "get his name off" the rifle?

TIA.

Merc1138
04-19-2010, 1:22 PM
If a seller doesn't want to do a cash and carry c&r transaction, you can't force them to. Personally, it's something I'd never bother with either in this state with the way firearm laws are currently since all it takes is a re-barreling that I may not be away of to cause the rifle to no longer be c&r and then cause problems. Yes, I'm aware long guns aren't registered, but that's not my point.

zinfull
04-19-2010, 1:33 PM
It feels so good to give the guy money and walk away with a gun it is the one last thing we have. Please do not let the seller get suckered into a dros. This will just feed onto it self and soon it will be a "law".

If the receiver is 50 yrs old you can do what you want and it will still be 50 yrs old but not C&R.


jerry

Psy Crow
04-19-2010, 1:41 PM
... all it takes is a re-barreling that I may not be away of to cause the rifle to no longer be c&r and then cause problems.

If the receiver is 50 yrs old you can do what you want and it will still be 50 yrs old but not C&R.jerry

To clarify this before it gets out of control: the rifle in question is all original, matching numbers, and listed in ATF 5300.11 - definitely C&R.

GrizzlyGuy
04-19-2010, 3:21 PM
See here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Firearms_registration#Private_Sales), the statutes and DOJ source info are referenced in that wiki page.

scootergmc
04-19-2010, 3:36 PM
He spoke to his FFL and the FFL told him he would need to do a PPT to be legal. (IMO the FFL sees an opportunity to make a few $$$.)


The FFL time for a PPT is never worth the $10 they get (assuming the charge the correct fee). Trust me, the FFL isn't seeing this as an opportunity. They're trying to help a paranoid gun owner...

Merc1138
04-19-2010, 4:13 PM
To clarify this before it gets out of control: the rifle in question is all original, matching numbers, and listed in ATF 5300.11 - definitely C&R.

I'm not saying the rifle in question wasn't c&r, but the reality of the situation is that we know california's gun laws are a complicated mess, and maybe he just doesn't want to deal with it and would rather just DROS the thing and be done with it because he already knows for sure that route is fine. While I understand that you want to educate the seller, you're also assuming that he's going to care to read any of it when he already knows he can just do the normal PPT and that works just fine(except the state gets $25 plus sales tax)

zinfull
04-19-2010, 4:29 PM
If the gun is less than 50 yrs old and C&R with no FFL03 then go to the FFL01 and you pay the DROS and wait 10 days.
If the gun is 50+ yrs old just buy it from him or if he wants to feel better and use a FFL01 then take the price of DROS and the return trip off the asking price.

jerry

Dimitri A.
04-19-2010, 4:35 PM
I've been having the same issue. I have an M48 Mauser I'm trying to sell and wanted to go through an FFL because I get so much conflicting info from DOJ.

I recently filled out a form to get a copy of all firearms registered to me and guess what? All pistols, no long guns. In fact, here's a copy of the letter they sent me.

Psy Crow
04-19-2010, 5:07 PM
See here (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Firearms_registration#Private_Sales), the statutes and DOJ source info are referenced in that wiki page.

Thanx GrizzlyGuy, question #26 of that FAQ infers there is such law but doesn't have a cite. :(

I'm not saying the rifle in question wasn't c&r, but the reality of the situation is that we know california's gun laws are a complicated mess, and maybe he just doesn't want to deal with it and would rather just DROS the thing and be done with it because he already knows for sure that route is fine. While I understand that you want to educate the seller, you're also assuming that he's going to care to read any of it when he already knows he can just do the normal PPT and that works just fine(except the state gets $25 plus sales tax)

The seller has indicated a willingness to learn about the twisty minefield that is CA law. And I'm unwilling to give the state any more of my money than I absolutely have to. :D

If the gun is 50+ yrs old just buy it from him or if he wants to feel better and use a FFL01 then take the price of DROS and the return trip off the asking price. jerry

Yep, that will be the final fallback position. I want to exhaust all other legal avenues first.

I've been having the same issue. I have an M48 Mauser I'm trying to sell and wanted to go through an FFL because I get so much conflicting info from DOJ.

I recently filled out a form to get a copy of all firearms registered to me and guess what? All pistols, no long guns. In fact, here's a copy of the letter they sent me.

Dmitri, that's awesome! May I have your permission to show the letter as evidence of no long gun registration?

Reading AB 1810 led me to PC 11106(b) and may have answered my questions definitively about long gun non-registration and info destruction:

(b) (1) Except as provided in subdivision (d), the Attorney
General shall not retain or compile any information from reports
filed pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 12078 for firearms that
are not handguns, from forms submitted pursuant to Section 12084, as
that section read prior to being repealed by the act that amended
this section, for firearms that are not handguns, or from dealers'
records of sales for firearms that are not handguns. All copies of
the forms submitted, or any information received in electronic form,
pursuant to Section 12084, as that section read prior to being
repealed by the act that amended this section, for firearms that are
not handguns, or of the dealers' records of sales for firearms that
are not handguns shall be destroyed within five days of the clearance
by the Attorney General, unless the purchaser or transferor is
ineligible to take possession of the firearm. All copies of the
reports filed, or any information received in electronic form,
pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 12078 for firearms that are
not handguns shall be destroyed within five days of the receipt by
the Attorney General, unless retention is necessary for use in a
criminal prosecution.
(2) A peace officer, the Attorney General, a Department of Justice
employee designated by the Attorney General, or any authorized local
law enforcement employee shall not retain or compile any information
from a firearms transaction record, as defined in paragraph (5) of
subdivision (c) of Section 12071, for firearms that are not handguns
unless retention or compilation is necessary for use in a criminal
prosecution or in a proceeding to revoke a license issued pursuant to
Section 12071.
(3) A violation of this subdivision is a misdemeanor.

This aligns precisely with Dimitri's letter from DOJ.

Dimitri A.
04-19-2010, 5:55 PM
Of Course you can, Psy Crow. It's cleared up concerns for me. Now I can relist my rifle as cash and carry. The key words here are "voluntary registration of rifles and shotguns". Also, as I understand this letter, this would seem to apply to all non-assult rifle long guns, regardles of whether or not they are C&R.

Librarian
04-19-2010, 5:58 PM
Thanx GrizzlyGuy, question #26 of that FAQ infers there is such law but doesn't have a cite. :(


If something is required to be registered, it's in the law. Unfortunately, if you have something omitted, the 'requirement' doesn't apply to it - and there is never a statement similar to 'we left out x y and z on purpose', laws don't work that way.

PC 12077 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/4/2/1/4/s12077) says this is what the dealer records - if the transaction goes through a dealer at all:(c)(1)For firearms other than handguns,
information contained in the register or record of electronic transfer shall be << LIST format added >>

the date and time of sale,
peace officer exemption status pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 12078 and the agency name,
auction or event waiting period exemption pursuant to subdivision (g) of Section 12078,
California Firearms Dealer number issued pursuant to Section 12071,
dangerous weapons permitholder waiting period exemption pursuant to subdivision (r) of Section 12078,
curio and relic waiting period exemption pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (t) of Section 12078,
full name of purchaser,
purchaser's complete date of birth,
purchaser's local address, if current address is temporary, complete permanent address of purchaser,
identification of purchaser,
purchaser's place of birth (state or country),
purchaser's complete telephone number,
purchaser's occupation, purchaser's sex, purchaser's physical description,
all legal names and aliases ever used by the purchaser,
yes or no answer to questions that prohibit purchase, including, but not limited to, conviction of a felony as described in Section 12021 or an offense described in Section 12021.1, the purchaser's status as a person described in Section 8100 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, whether the purchaser is a person who has been adjudicated by a court to be a danger to others or found not guilty by reason of insanity, whether the purchaser is a person who has been found incompetent to stand trial or placed under conservatorship by a court pursuant to Section 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code,
signature of purchaser,
signature of salesperson (as a witness to the purchaser's signature),
salesperson's certificate of eligibility number if he or she has obtained a certificate of eligibility,
name and complete address of the dealer or firm selling the firearm as shown on the dealer's license,
the establishment number, if assigned,
the dealer's complete business telephone number,
any information required by Section 12082,
and a statement of the penalties for any person signing a fictitious name or address or for knowingly furnishing any incorrect information or for knowingly omitting any information required to be provided for the register.

(2)Effective January 1, 2003, the purchaser shall provide his or her right thumbprint on the register in a manner prescribed by the department. No exception to this requirement shall be permitted except by regulations adopted by the department.

(3)The firearms dealer shall record on the register or record of electronic transfer the date that the firearm is delivered.

Note that on the list I edited in are no mentions of manufacturer, model, caliber, barrel length, or serial number - without those, no individual weapon can be traced back to the owner, so in that sense "firearms other than handguns" are not registered.

Extending the omission argument, there are no penalties for possessing unregistered firearms (with the exception of unlicensed CCW), so there is no requirement that any firearm be registered while the transfer through an FFL requires the DROS process for handguns, which effectively supplies that information and registers the gun.

But guns never gone through DROS (transferred before 1991) and guns imported here before 1998 and not subsequently transferred in CA are NOT registered and need not be - because there is no requirement that that happen.

But there is no affirmative law that says that - you have to conclude it from what IS required.

ETA: that's how both Off List Lowers (OLL) and Unloaded Open Carry (UOC) are legal; using UOC, because it's easier to see, PC 12025 generally prohibits CONCEALED carry without CCW, and PC 12031 generally prohibits LOADED carry in public, so if you carry neither CONCEALED nor LOADED you violate no law - but there is no affirmative law that UOC is 'legal' - it's just not 'illegal' anywhere.

Cokebottle
04-19-2010, 6:57 PM
Dmitri, that's awesome! May I have your permission to show the letter as evidence of no long gun registration?
Long guns CAN be registered... but they are not (currently) automatically registered at the time of DROS.... in fact, the serial number, and I believe manufacturer and model are not even on the DROS... simply "Joe Schmoe bought a long gun on April 12 2010".

However, using the Voluntary Registration form and $19, any gun can be registered by the owner. Some people feel that it is an aid to recovery should the gun ever be stolen... particularly people who live/work in different areas so some of their guns are unattended for extended periods and a theft may not be "noticed" or reported for weeks or months.

Cokebottle
04-19-2010, 7:01 PM
ETA: that's how both Off List Lowers (OLL) and Unloaded Open Carry (UOC) are legal; using UOC, because it's easier to see, PC 12025 generally prohibits CONCEALED carry without CCW, and PC 12031 generally prohibits LOADED carry in public, so if you carry neither CONCEALED nor LOADED you violate no law - but there is no affirmative law that UOC is 'legal' - it's just not 'illegal' anywhere.
Or even more simple....

That's how it is legal to drive down the road with your doors locked, or unlocked, or your windows up, or down.

The PC (or VC) generally do not indicate what is legal unless it is an exception to something that is otherwise illegal.

Librarian
04-19-2010, 7:19 PM
Or even more simple....

That's how it is legal to drive down the road with your doors locked, or unlocked, or your windows up, or down.

Or drive any speed from 1 - 24 in a 25 MPH zone.

The PC (or VC) generally do not indicate what is legal unless it is an exception to something that is otherwise illegal. Right.

But a lot of people are so nervous about CA law - and really, without a lawyer on speed-dial, who can blame them? - that the idea that we still live in a state where legally "what is not prohibited is permitted" is hard to remember.

PORCH
04-19-2010, 7:22 PM
Librarian are you saying that having an unregistered handgun is not illegal? I remember being told that it was a crime. But if I understand your post correctly then I was being fed a bunch of FUD.

Cokebottle
04-19-2010, 7:26 PM
Librarian are you saying that having an unregistered handgun is not illegal? I remember being told that it was a crime. But if I understand your post correctly then I was being fed a bunch of FUD.
Handguns purchased after 1991 must be registered at the time of purchase.
Handguns imported into the state by new residents must be registered within (IIRC) 60 days.

Handguns purchased prior to 1991 do not need to be registered.

Possession of an unregistered handgun is not a crime, however, use of that handgun in the commission of a "wobbler" will push the charge to "felony".
There are also specific restrictions on gang members and affiliates being in possession of unregistered handguns.

PORCH
04-19-2010, 7:29 PM
Thanks cokebottle. I can see how the FUD was created now.

Cokebottle
04-19-2010, 7:34 PM
Thanks cokebottle. I can see how the FUD was created now.
Ya... it's borderline FUD, simply because any handgun sold in the state in the last 19 years must have been registered as a part of that sale...
It's like high-capacity magazines. Possession and use is not a crime, but current law would be broken in the process of obtaining said pistol or magazine.

But there is one very potent exception....

If you build your own pistol from an 80% lower/flat, such as an AK or an AR, registration is purely voluntary.

Librarian
04-19-2010, 7:40 PM
Librarian are you saying that having an unregistered handgun is not illegal? I remember being told that it was a crime. But if I understand your post correctly then I was being fed a bunch of FUD.

Yes, exactly.

There's a difference between "all handguns DROS'd through CA FFL's ARE registered" and "all handguns MUST BE registered".

The first is true; the second is false.

Psy Crow
04-20-2010, 7:45 AM
Dmitri A.: Thanx for permission to use your letter.

Librarian: Thanx for the cite of PC 12077(c)(1).

Cokebottle: Agreed that long guns CAN be registered, but are NOT registered automatically via DROS. I'm educating the seller on the latter. :)

I knew Calguns wouldn't let me down. :D