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View Full Version : Selling an 03A3 ?


hylander
04-17-2010, 10:09 PM
So I have an 03A3 that has been sporterized.
Can I sell this FTF since it is over 50yr. old ?
I do not have a C&R

littlejake
04-18-2010, 2:07 AM
So I have an 03A3 that has been sporterized.
Can I sell this FTF since it is over 50yr. old ?
I do not have a C&R

I think so. It may have lost C&R status by being a sporterized former military rifle. But, the exemption in Penal Code 12078 (t)(2) is not predicated on C&R status -- just a long gun 50 years old or greater.

You don't need a C&R license to sell under 12078 (t)(2) to another CA resident. Nor does the receiving party.

EOD Guy
04-18-2010, 9:09 AM
I think so. It may have lost C&R status by being a sporterized former military rifle. But, the exemption in Penal Code 12078 (t)(2) is not predicated on C&R status -- just a long gun 50 years old or greater.

You don't need a C&R license to sell under 12078 (t)(2) to another CA resident. Nor does the receiving party.

The Penal Code exception requires the rifle to be both over 50 years old AND a C&R under Federal law.

littlejake
04-18-2010, 9:17 AM
The Penal Code exception requires the rifle to be both over 50 years old AND a C&R under Federal law.

You are correct --

"(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor. "

I believe the 03A3 sporter lost its C&R status because the federal law defining C&R requires military arms to be in original configuration.

I'm not seeing the phrase original configuration in the CFR. But, the ATF website states:
"Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list."

See: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/

I see a lot of folks on gunbroker.com who seem to ignore the original configuration requirement; but, I believe they are potentially setting themselves up for an illegal transfer.

IMO, the OP loses the question of a FTF, non-CA dealer transfer; and the safest way is to PPT via a CA dealer.

hylander
04-18-2010, 11:37 AM
So what if I put it back in a crappy original stock ?

littlejake
04-18-2010, 12:00 PM
So what if I put it back in a crappy original stock ?

Restoring to original configuration is an option that would seem to put it back under the 12078(t)(2) transfer exemption.

AngryPossum
04-18-2010, 12:26 PM
Who is to say your 1903A3 wasn't sporterized Over 50 years ago?

Argonaut
04-18-2010, 12:33 PM
I agree.......There is a guy always at the local gun shows that has tables full of (C&R) guns that he sells under the nose of the Cal DOJ and ATF. Many are "sporterized" military rifles. I bought a M1917 from him that has the stock cut down, the ears milled off, and is drilled/tapped for a scope mount.

hylander
04-18-2010, 12:54 PM
Who is to say your 1903A3 wasn't sporterized Over 50 years ago?

Actually I'm pretty sure it was in the 50's.
Anyways I'm wanting to trade it for a Marlin 30-30

emcon5
04-18-2010, 6:05 PM
"(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor. "The referenced section of the Federal Regs says 2 things about "Original configuration", Jack and schidt.

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

The ATF pulled the "Original Configuration" thing out of their arse by globally applying requirements outlined "ATF Ruling 85-10" which dealt with importing surplus firearms to all C&Rs. Text can be found Here, bottom of the page (http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/cnrfaq/index.asp).

I'm not seeing the phrase original configuration in the CFR. But, the ATF website states:
"Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list."

See: http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/

The referenced definition form the Penal Code does not talk about ATF Ruling 85-10, it talks about 27 C.F.R. § 478.11.

I would love see someone challenge ATF on that. I certainly understand that if say, an Ishapore Enfield made in 1970 was sporterized it would lose C&R status, as it is a C&R by name but not by age, but by the Federal definitions, a firearm only has to meet one of the requirements. By the words of the regulation, once it is 50 years old, it is C&R, and I can't see how they can claim otherwise.

EOD Guy
04-19-2010, 6:37 AM
The referenced section of the Federal Regs says 2 things about "Original configuration", Jack and schidt.



The ATF pulled the "Original Configuration" thing out of their arse by globally applying requirements outlined "ATF Ruling 85-10" which dealt with importing surplus firearms to all C&Rs. Text can be found Here, bottom of the page (http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/cnrfaq/index.asp).



The referenced definition form the Penal Code does not talk about ATF Ruling 85-10, it talks about 27 C.F.R. § 478.11.

I would love see someone challenge ATF on that. I certainly understand that if say, an Ishapore Enfield made in 1970 was sporterized it would lose C&R status, as it is a C&R by name but not by age, but by the Federal definitions, a firearm only has to meet one of the requirements. By the words of the regulation, once it is 50 years old, it is C&R, and I can't see how they can claim otherwise.

Actually a firearm must meet the first part of the definition before any of the three requirements can be applied. The first part reads: "Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of such quality other than is associated with firearms for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons." Most people find it convenient to ignore this part and go directly to the 50 year rule.

The BATF ruling that military firearms must be in original configuration comes from Congressional intent when the law was written, as explained in the preamble to the regulation. The 50 year rule doesn't apply because sporterized military firearms do not meet the first part of the definition in that the BATF opinion, which existed prior to the import ruling, is that such firearms are not of special interest to collectors. As such, they are thrown out of the definition before you get to apply the 50 year rule.

Former Senator Dole, who had a hand in writing GCA 68, has also stated that Congressional intent was to include military firearms only if in original condition.

You may or may not agree with the opinion (I don't.) but it has the force of law.

Unfortunately, the only place you will find Congressional intent mentioned in writing is in several different editions of the Federal Register from 1968 where there are several discussions coming from the public comment period. As far as I know, editions of the Federal Register from that period are not available on line.

tmncali
04-19-2010, 6:55 AM
From the FAQ of the ATF pub 5300.11 rev Dec. 2007 C&R list

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/crmod.jpg

littlejake
04-19-2010, 8:30 AM
My thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. I suspect this is not the first time this issue has been discussed on Calguns.

Personally, I have wondered where the original configuration requirement came from.

This thread clarifies the origin of the original configuration requirement (although one may not agree with the requirement), its application to PC 12078(t)(2) and specifically the question of what minor changes are permitted and the implications of a sporterized stock.

It would seem that the previous two posts nail down the issue.

Kindest regards,

Jake

hylander
04-19-2010, 2:31 PM
From the FAQ of the ATF pub 5300.11 rev Dec. 2007 C&R list

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/crmod.jpg

Thanks;
Basically I need to put it back into an orignal style stock and remove
the Scope.

emcon5
04-19-2010, 4:21 PM
Actually a firearm must meet the first part of the definition before any of the three requirements can be applied. The first part reads: "Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of such quality other than is associated with firearms for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons." Most people find it convenient to ignore this part and go directly to the 50 year rule.

I disagree with your interpretation.

Lets look at it again:

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. This defines what Curios or relics are. It is not a prerequisite, or it would say so.

To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:Explains what makes a specific firearm a C&R, "of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons." Simply it has to be one of the following:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.That is why they are "of special interest..."

The intent of Senator Dole is all well and good, but that is not what the cited regulation says in remarkably plain English. I also understand why that interpretation would be applied to an import request, but I can't see how a reasonable person would come up with the "Original configuration" requirement even from the most tortured reading of the regulation.

I am not arguing that according to the current policy of ATF that Original Configuration is necessary for C&R Status, I am just saying that deriving that from the text of the regulation based on a ruling on imports is B.S.

EOD Guy
04-20-2010, 6:43 AM
I disagree with your interpretation.

Lets look at it again:

This defines what Curios or relics are. It is not a prerequisite, or it would say so.

Explains what makes a specific firearm a C&R, "of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons." Simply it has to be one of the following:

That is why they are "of special interest..."

The intent of Senator Dole is all well and good, but that is not what the cited regulation says in remarkably plain English. I also understand why that interpretation would be applied to an import request, but I can't see how a reasonable person would come up with the "Original configuration" requirement even from the most tortured reading of the regulation.

I am not arguing that according to the current policy of ATF that Original Configuration is necessary for C&R Status, I am just saying that deriving that from the text of the regulation based on a ruling on imports is B.S.

I don't agree with BATF either. I'm just stating their reasoning.

Also, courts do take Congressional intent into account when interpreting Federal law.

I wish I could get a hold of the preamble to the regulation from 1968 or the public comment discussions from the Federal Register. A law library is probably the only place I'd be able to find them. I'm retired from the University of California and I think I still have staff library privileges. I may check when I get a chance.

hylander
05-04-2010, 6:35 AM
So I read though this 85-10 ruling an it is specifically dealing with
Importers and Importing.
Also it makes referance to a "Receiver" alone, but not a "Barreled Receiver".
I see "Barreled Receivers" sold as C&R all the time

CSACANNONEER
05-04-2010, 7:07 AM
There are two ways a firearm can be considered C&R. The first is if it is listed. These guns can loos their C&R statues if not in their original configuration.

The second way, and the ONLY way that a FTF transaction can legally happen in Ca. is if, the firearm is 50 years old or older. If the gun is over 50 years old, it is over 50 years old and qualifies as a C&R based on the age of the action alone.

hylander
05-04-2010, 4:11 PM
There are two ways a firearm can be considered C&R. The first is if it is listed. These guns can loos their C&R statues if not in their original configuration.

The second way, and the ONLY way that a FTF transaction can legally happen in Ca. is if, the firearm is 50 years old or older. If the gun is over 50 years old, it is over 50 years old and qualifies as a C&R based on the age of the action alone.

So is an 03A3 listed, because it is certianly over 50 years old.

CSACANNONEER
05-04-2010, 4:33 PM
So is an 03A3 listed, because it is certianly over 50 years old.

It does not need to be listed and I'm not going to bother to check. The fact that it is over 50 years old qualifies it as a C&R.

Dr. Peter Venkman
05-04-2010, 8:03 PM
So much FUD present here.

It does not need to be listed and I'm not going to bother to check. The fact that it is over 50 years old qualifies it as a C&R.

Completely wrong.

From: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html

Q: What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?

The definition for curio or relic (“C & R”) firearms found in 27 CFR § 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.

It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable—for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.



Not original, not a C&R.

hylander
05-04-2010, 10:36 PM
So much FUD present here.
Completely wrong.
From: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/1972-2007/faq.pdf
Not original, not a C&R.

ATF Ruling 85-10 addresses Importation.
Say I have a rifle, but the stock is missing, does that disquilify it as a C&R ?

Dr. Peter Venkman
05-05-2010, 7:19 AM
ATF Ruling 85-10 addresses Importation.

It doesn't matter that 85-10 discusses importation only. This is telling me that you didn't even read what the ATF said. Re-read what I quoted. ATF updated their website and my link was old. Regardless, even before my edit it addressed your point.

Say I have a rifle, but the stock is missing, does that disquilify it as a C&R ?

Does a rifle normally have a stock? Yes. In order for it to be a C&R, it needs to have the original stock or a replacement stock that returns it to the original configuration.

hylander
05-05-2010, 5:58 PM
It doesn't matter that 85-10 discusses importation only. This is telling me that you didn't even read what the ATF said. Re-read what I quoted. ATF updated their website and my link was old. Regardless, even before my edit it addressed your point.
Does a rifle normally have a stock? Yes. In order for it to be a C&R, it needs to have the original stock or a replacement stock that returns it to the original configuration.

Thanks for th input.
I did read everything, and the way it reads is contradictive.
I realize a rifle needs a Stock, however I see barreled actions without a stock sold as C&R
on a daily basis by C&R Lisence holders. Seems everyone has a different take on this subject.
Anyway, just to be safe I will put it back in the a crappy original stock if I deside to sell it.

Dr. Peter Venkman
05-05-2010, 11:07 PM
Thanks for th input.
I did read everything, and the way it reads is contradictive.
I realize a rifle needs a Stock, however I see barreled actions without a stock sold as C&R
on a daily basis by C&R Lisence holders. Seems everyone has a different take on this subject.
Anyway, just to be safe I will put it back in the a crappy original stock if I deside to sell it.

I do agree that the ATF is all over the place, but their decision is a combination of two different rulings governing two separate things. I see it too (selling actions as C&R) however them doing it doesn't make it legal. Actions alone are NOT C&R and cannot be sold as cash and carry here in CA.

How is the original stock crappy?

hylander
05-06-2010, 6:39 AM
How is the original stock crappy?

Not to bad really, but it broke in front of the rear band and its missing most metal parts.

Dr. Peter Venkman
05-06-2010, 6:11 PM
Not to bad really, but it broke in front of the rear band and its missing most metal parts.

Just as an FYI if you were to buy a replacement stock for it (even if it was new production) it would still be C&R as long as the stock is 'normal' for it.

hylander
05-06-2010, 8:27 PM
Just as an FYI if you were to buy a replacement stock for it (even if it was new production) it would still be C&R as long as the stock is 'normal' for it.

Thanks
Appreciate the info. :)