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Robidouxs
04-17-2010, 7:05 PM
I recently purchased a rifle within California from a California resident. The transaction was cash and carry. Since I possess a C&R License, should I enter the received rifle into my logbook?

TRICKSTER
04-17-2010, 7:10 PM
Yes, any C&R firearm that you acquire while licensed must be entered in you book.

Robidouxs
04-17-2010, 7:19 PM
Thank you.

Fate
04-18-2010, 7:45 AM
Yes, any C&R firearm that you acquire or dispose of while licensed must be entered in you book.

Added a bit to cover all the bases ;)

Interloper
04-18-2010, 11:10 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's only if you acquired that gun while licensed. If you had it before, it stays out of the book.

Mssr. Eleganté
04-18-2010, 11:29 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
That's only if you acquired that gun while licensed. If you had it before, it stays out of the book.

The law says licensed collectors have to log each C&R firearm disposed of.

Cokebottle
04-18-2010, 11:41 AM
The law says licensed collectors have to log each C&R firearm disposed of.
So should guns owned at the time the 03 was issued be entered as "previously existing" so as to prevent any discrepancies when disposed of or in the event of an audit?

ke6guj
04-18-2010, 11:49 AM
So should guns owned at the time the 03 was issued be entered as "previously existing" so as to prevent any discrepancies when disposed of or in the event of an audit?

correct. The way I've read is that you log in that fiream and state "pre-license acquisition" or words to that effect. YOu then log out the firearm ot the buyer.

Mssr. Eleganté
04-18-2010, 11:49 AM
So should guns owned at the time the 03 was issued be entered as "previously existing" so as to prevent any discrepancies when disposed of or in the event of an audit?

Yes. You only enter them in the bound book if you dispose of them. You fill out the correct info in the "description" and "disposition" sections and then put something like you suggested in the "acquisition" section. I always put "acquired prior to license".

Cokebottle
04-18-2010, 11:58 AM
Okay... so it only needs to be entered if it is disposed of.
My first thought was if it came up during an audit... but I had overlooked the fact that 03 and commercial 0x audits are different and an agent isn't going to be coming into my home and inspecting my safe (unless I invite them in).

Interloper
04-18-2010, 1:07 PM
Hmmm...can you guys cite this? I hang out on a lot of C&R specific forums and this question comes up all the time. The advice usually given is that guns owned prior to being licensed stay out of the book and are not inspected during an ATF audit.

ke6guj
04-18-2010, 1:18 PM
Hmmm...can you guys cite this? I hang out on a lot of C&R specific forums and this question comes up all the time. The advice usually given is that guns owned prior to being licensed stay out of the book and are not inspected during an ATF audit.nobody said you have to log ALL of your pre-license acquistions in your bound book. And if they aren't in the bound book, they aren't subject to inspection.

What has been said is that if you sell a C&R firearm while you are licensed, that you must log it in your bound book. Even if the firearm wasn't previously looged in your bound book because it was acquired pre-license.


§ 478.125 Record of receipt and disposition.

(f) Firearms receipt and disposition
by licensed collectors. Each licensed
collector shall enter into a record each
receipt and disposition of firearms curios
or relics. The record required by this paragraph
shall be maintained in bound form
under the format prescribed below. The
purchase or other acquisition of a curio or
relic shall, except as provided in paragraph
(g) of this section, be recorded not
later than the close of the next business
day following the date of such purchase or
other acquisition. The record shall show
the date of receipt, the name and address
or the name and license number of the
person from whom received, the name of
the manufacturer and importer (if any), the
model, serial number, type, and the caliber
or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The
sale or other disposition of a curio or relic
shall be recorded by the licensed collector
not later than 7 days following the date of
such transaction. When such disposition is
made to a licensee, the commercial record
of the transaction shall be retained, until
the transaction is recorded, separate from
other commercial documents maintained
by the licensee, and be readily available
for inspection. The record shall show the
date of the sale or other disposition of
each firearm curio or relic, the name and
address of the person to whom the firearm
curio or relic is transferred, or the name
and license number of the person to whom
transferred if such person is a licensee,
and the date of birth of the transferee if
other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee
shall—

Cokebottle
04-18-2010, 4:36 PM
The best way to remember it is you are licensed, you don't use the license.
Any C&R transactions that take place while you are licensed must be logged... acquisitions or disposal... even if it would be a legal cash-and-carry for a non-licensed person.

The only way a C&R can be logged out as a disposition is if it is first logged in.
My question was more related to when it must be logged in... and I guess it doesn't really matter... it doesn't need to be logged until it is sold, though I don't see the harm in logging it in at any time prior to sale.

The exception to the "you/use" is that even though the 03 is licensed, non-C&R are not required to be included in the bound book.

C.W.M.V.
04-18-2010, 5:19 PM
I just got my C&R recently but I didn't get anything about a log book? Someone square me away?

Cokebottle
04-18-2010, 5:28 PM
I just got my C&R recently but I didn't get anything about a log book? Someone square me away?
You should be getting a packet from the BATF that lists the various laws and some guides... but I think they're running behind.
I got my 03 in just under 3 weeks, but I still have not received that packet.

Regardless, you are required to have a "bound book" that lists your acquisitions and dispositions of all C&R firearms.

Interloper
04-18-2010, 8:35 PM
The best way to remember it is you are licensed, you don't use the license.
Any C&R transactions that take place while you are licensed must be logged... acquisitions or disposal... even if it would be a legal cash-and-carry for a non-licensed person.

The only way a C&R can be logged out as a disposition is if it is first logged in.


Seems like a contradiction.

Cokebottle
04-19-2010, 4:47 PM
Seems like a contradiction.
Nahh...

Your entire collection doesn't have to be logged... only transactions that take place while licensed.
This includes both purchases and disposals.
You can't log a disposal on a gun that isn't in the book, so when you dispose of it, you simply log the disposal as you would any other, but under the acquisition section of the log sheet, you simply indicate that it was a part of the collection prior to you being licensed... you don't need to fill in the information on the party it was purchased from.

Some will go ahead and log all existing, but that can be a PITA because if/when you are called for an audit, everything in the book needs to be inspected... and if you are smart, this means carried to the local BATF field office where you have scheduled an appointment.

If you allow your license to expire and then apply for a new one the following year, that's it... the entire collection becomes "previously existing".