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ArmedBear
02-20-2006, 2:57 PM
As I understand it, California law specifically allows one to carry loaded firearms, openly or concealed, on one's own property.

How does that apply to the property owned in common with other condo owners? Anyone know?

troyPhD
02-20-2006, 3:16 PM
I would think that once you step out of your immediate living area, you are in "public." If you stumble down the hall buck naked and/or drunk, you can be cited for indecent exposure/public drunkeness, right? I would think the same applies for carry.

1911_sfca
02-20-2006, 3:18 PM
We have discussed this before -- you might find some posts on a search.

The bottom line, to me at least, is that opinions here differ, and for a definitive answer it would be best to consult an attorney.

bwiese
02-20-2006, 4:23 PM
When you're outside your door in a condo complex, you're in "common area".
Not really much different than an apt complex.

ArmedBear
02-20-2006, 4:30 PM
Common area, owned, in part, by me. Patrolled by a guard 24/7, paid for, in part, by me. Streets are privately owned and maintained.

It is clearly NOT public property. And I am legally entitled to use it per the HOA agreements, since I'm a % owner. But we can throw out anyone else we want.

So, brandishing laws, indecent exposure laws, etc. that involve what others see would apply, just as they would through the window of my own property. But concealed carry is legal on private property.

Not arguing, just explaining why I'm wondering.

Omega13device
02-20-2006, 4:52 PM
The property is owned by the condo association. You are a member of the association, but you do not own, or have a share of ownership in, the community property. If you did, you would get a title for that too.

ArmedBear
02-20-2006, 4:55 PM
AFAIK per the deed, I own a 1/200th (or whatever the exact number) undivided share of the entire property.

And the law specifies that I can carry on my private property or private property that I legally occupy.

Santa Cruz Armory
02-20-2006, 5:08 PM
Hmmm, I think you're in a grey area there...

Due to the fact that you say you own 1/200th or some part there of the complex, it would be very difficult to determine where that 1/200th area was outside of your actual condo/ home. Even though its a "common" area its also the other owners common area as well.

There may be rules of your HOA that define such things you may want to look before you venture into the "grey space".

Not to be nosey, but why would you want to carry in the common area of your complex anyway?

Black_Talon
02-20-2006, 6:46 PM
Here's (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=24464) an earlier Calguns thread about this topic.

Mr. Beretta
02-20-2006, 6:59 PM
Hi

Anytime you venture outside the walls of your immediate residence or business CCW (and you donít have a license, etc.) absent some type of genuine emergency, youíre probably subject to arrest. Common areas, public areas etc., in an apartment, condiduim or business setting are just that, public areas. An owner, renter, etc. has no expectation of privacy or exclusive use of these areas. It may be jointly owned but itís not a person residence or business. Inside / outside walkways, driveways and parking lots are all places a public visitor usually has legal temporary access to. They are not residences or businesses.

A manís home is his castle! Everything else outside however is part of the kingdom!

Just my humble, respectful opinion. :)

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

MaceWindu
02-20-2006, 8:48 PM
your immediate residence or business CCW

If it's "CCW" THEN HOW IS ANYONE GONNA KNOW?!?! Geez...splittin hairs here...

Shovelhead
02-21-2006, 4:19 AM
Your HOA should have it in a written policy somewhere. Having a tiny portion of ownership probably doesn't hold water... I would imagine some sort of greater good issue takes precedent. And MaceWindu makes a good point you cross a line even with a CCW when you allow others to see your weapon.

I think the best place to find the answer you seek is in your HOA contract agreement whatever it is called, the HOA "leadership" and or a lawyer that specializes in weapon issues. I would imagine with all due respect to my fellow forum members that unless one of them is a lawyer that has researched the topic any info you get here is not likely to be relevant or helpful to your needs.

My personal recommendation is, why bother, keep your pistol in your condo when you are walking around. I wouldn't want to give some wack job the opportunity to accidently see that I was carrying a certain type of weapon. I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility that said nutjob could later say after an arguement with you. "officer he had a big scary black looking pistol on his right hip when he was arguing with me and threatened to shoot me" they do a search and oh lookie there a big scary looking semi auto with a right hand carry rig. Stranger things have happened and I wouldn't personally want to get in trouble just because I wanted to push the envelope.

Out of curiosity why would you want to carry a concealed weapon in the common areas of your condo complex? It sounds like there is adequate security if I read you correctly.

glen avon
02-21-2006, 8:27 AM
are you asking us for advice, or telling us why you have reached your conclusion?

the other thread sets forth just about all arguments for and against.

If, after reading that thread, you still think you can carry a concealed weapon in your condo common area without a permit, I think you are in for a rude and expensive surprise. but that's just my opinion, it's your butt on the line, your choice to make.

bwiese
02-21-2006, 11:37 AM
If it's in a public area, it ain't yours. In fact, these are called "common areas".

Fractional undivided ownership (as you would have in a condo situation of the areas outside your residence) without exclusive use & control isn't relevant.

In many condo/townhouse developments, patios and garages are termed "exclusive use common areas" so the HOA can exert control over storage (i.e., no old tires or hazmat stuff stacked in patio) and use of garage ("Bob's midnight discount auto repair") - for safety, wear & tear, and apperances.

ArmedBear
02-21-2006, 1:23 PM
If it's in a public area, it ain't yours. In fact, these are called "common areas".

Fractional undivided ownership (as you would have in a condo situation of the areas outside your residence) without exclusive use & control isn't relevant.


Thanks Bill. That's the answer I was fishing for.

The law doesn't say "private property of which I am the exclusive legal occupant or owner" but case law would cover this better. And case law is a lot harder to find.

And yes, to those who asked, there is a reason I asked. It's not because I want to carry every day around the complex. And our guards aren't armed.

The one time it really came up for me was a situation where I would have been "covered" by other provisions of CA law (immediate threat and self-defense), but it started me wondering.

bwiese
02-21-2006, 2:12 PM
Thanks Bill. That's the answer I was fishing for.
The law doesn't say "private property of which I am the exclusive legal occupant or owner" but case law would cover this better. And case law is a lot harder to find.


There is some case law discussed in Machtinger's "How to Own a Gun in Calif and Stay Out of Jail". It involved an apartment owner who carried on his rental apt complex. I believe he resided on the property too, in one of the units (could be wrong on this). The "it's my property" thing didn't hold water since it was a public area.

BTW, condos are very funny things even inside. You really only own from the paint inwards: that is, you've bought a "right to occupy" a unit, use HOA services, etc. along with an undivided ownership share of the property. If the condo has 217 units, you own 1/217th of the common interest, likely regardless if you have the biggest/smallest, cheapest or most expensive condo. (Most developments, everyone pays the same HOA fee. Some do not however).

Once past the walls, it's not your unit. Wanna repipe? That's the HOA's job.
Limited surface work (i.e., new kitchen cabinets) are prob OK.