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View Full Version : How do people shoot out to 300meter/yd w/ iron-sight!?


Jicko
02-19-2006, 5:58 PM
How do people shoot out to 300meter/yd w/ iron-sight!?

I can hardly see my target at that range(100meter)..... and how to even aim!? The M16/AR15 is supposed to be able to shoot at "point target" out to those ranges, right?

jmlivingston
02-19-2006, 6:52 PM
Easy with the trigger finger, watch your breathing, aim center mass. And the most important part? Lots of practice! :D Seriously, it's all about the basics. With an M16/AR15 the front sight post will complete cover a torso type target leaving nothing but the head poking above the post.

At least that's what they taught me (and it worked) back in '87 when I was in the Army...

John

Fjold
02-19-2006, 6:58 PM
Practice, practice, practice.

PanzerAce
02-19-2006, 6:58 PM
well....I remember someone posting a picture of them shooting a 600 yard match using irons with a M14/M1A awhile ago. but I bet its really just alot of practice :/

TMC
02-19-2006, 6:59 PM
At the 3-gun nationals there were 6 10" flashers at 300-325 yard. My buddy John, with standard A2 sights took 8 shots to hit all six. The first three took about 10 seconds, the last three about the same. I have it on video, if you know someone who will host video I'll send it out.

He said afterwards that the front sight more than covered the target.

phish
02-19-2006, 7:09 PM
The aiming blacks from 200-1000 are huge in relation to the targets you usually buy for 25 cents at the range. They appear to be the width of the front sight post so it's not unmanageable.

here's a picture of a 600 yard target as an example:

http://www.zouaves.org/coalinga/Image7.jpg

bit of trivia: the fellow on the far right appeared in American Rifleman last year with his Krag

Sgt Raven
02-19-2006, 7:12 PM
Easy with the trigger finger, watch your breathing, aim center mass. And the most important part? Lots of practice! :D Seriously, it's all about the basics. With an M16/AR15 the front sight post will complete cover a torso type target leaving nothing but the head poking above the post.

At least that's what they taught me (and it worked) back in '87 when I was in the Army...

John

Roger that, Same thing in '73 at 350 meters. At 300 meters you switch from a C.O.M. hold to a head/ shoulders hold with M16A1 sights.

PanzerAce
02-19-2006, 7:13 PM
holy **** that things massive. so it really doesnt look all that small at long range then?

phish
02-19-2006, 7:18 PM
a picture of a 1000 yard target:

http://www.davidtubb.com/tcom_images/dtac/david_115_target.jpg

ocabj
02-19-2006, 7:18 PM
holy **** that things massive. so it really doesnt look all that small at long range then?

For official service rifle competition, the aiming black will be a bit over 6MOA in size for 200, 300, and 600 yards. So if you want to practice with iron sights, just shoot at any target that with a 6MOA black for the distance you will be shooting at. IE: 6" black at 100 yards.

chickenfried
02-19-2006, 7:24 PM
who's on the left in the photo?
a picture of a 1000 yard target:

[/IMG]

grammaton76
02-19-2006, 7:24 PM
holy **** that things massive. so it really doesnt look all that small at long range then?

Geez. Apparently I'm not nearly as bad a shot as I thought I was! I'd assumed that people were scoring really accurate hits at 600 yards with the same targets I still can't draw a smilie face on at 25...

phish
02-19-2006, 7:26 PM
who's on the left in the photo?

That picture was taken from David Tubb's website, that's his son on the left.

phish
02-19-2006, 7:35 PM
Here's an attached screen shot of what the sight picture should look like, in a perfect world that is. I cropped this from a screen capture from a PC game available from ISE Games.


The sight picture will vary depending on how bad your eyes are (mine are junk) and the lighting conditions.

Matt-man
02-19-2006, 8:54 PM
The sight picture is the key. Because the aiming black gets bigger as you go farther back, the sight picture stays the same. For that reason, if there's no crosswind, it isn't any harder to shoot at 600 than it is at 200. It's usually windy though, and the real skill in shooting at those distances is reading the wind.

Of course, at any distance, it's natural point of aim, sight alignment, breath control, trigger squeeze.

anotherted
02-19-2006, 8:56 PM
Anyone read "Marine Sniper". Its about Carlos Hathcock. Most of it is about his time in vietnam, but there are a few pages written about him at Camp Perry. Pretty interesting stuff. Irons at 1000 yds -- M1 Garand. There is also alot about him in Vietnam using Ma Deuce out to 2000 yds.


BTW.....target fuzzy, front sight focused.

dwtt
02-19-2006, 9:06 PM
I'm kinda surprised this question is coming up because shooting out to 300 meters isn't so hard. It's the 500 meters that's hard, because the front sight tip is bigger than the entire target. In NRA High Power rifle they shoot at 600 yards. Remember basic marksmanship class?
Focus on a clear front sight tip
Good sight alignment
Good sight picture
BRASS- Breathe, Relax, Aim, Stop, Squeeze

Now that thousands of off list lower receivers have made it into the hands of Calif gun owners, how likely is it that these people will take up High Power shooting and see what the AR-15 is really capable of?

m1371
02-19-2006, 9:59 PM
500yds? Piece of cake.

If memory serves correctly, the effective ranges for the M16A2 were 550yds for point targets and 800yds for area targets.

Using the basic fundamentals of marksmanship, it's very do-able.

Here's an example of the USMC KD [Known Distance] Course of Fire: http://www.usmcweapons.com/articles/m16/m16%20Qual/currentcourse/currentm16qual.html

USMC Known Distance Course of Fire
STAGE ONE:
Distance Time Rounds Type of Fire Position
200 Yards 20 Min 5 Slow Fire Sitting
5 Slow Fire Kneeling
5 Slow Fire Standing

Notes: During this stage of fire, the Marines are only allowed to load 5 rounds at a time before making a complete safe weapon and changing positions. The total time is 20 minutes for all 15 rounds.

A sling is allowed for all positions except for standing. During the standing position the shooter may either have a tight parade sling, or take it off the weapon.

STAGE TWO:

Distance Time Rounds Type of Fire Position
200 Yards 70 Sec 5/5 Rapid Standing to kneeling

Notes: 5/5= a tactical reload. The Marine is only allowed to load 5 rounds in each magazine. Therefore, the Marine has to reload for the second magazine. Makes for some interesting groups if your not careful to get that natural point of aim back.

A rapid fire means just that; Firing rapidly. (You only have 70 second to get them all out!)
STAGE THREE:
Distance Time Rounds Type of Fire Position
300 yards 5 Min 5 Slow Kneeling


STAGE FOUR:
Distance Time Rounds Type of Fire Position
300 Yards 70 Sec 5/5 Rapid Standing to kneeling

The position change from standing to kneeling is one of the better parts of the range. It really tests the Marines ability to adjust their firing position quickly, just like they might in combat. Drop to the ground and fire.
STAGE FIVE:
Distance Time Rounds Type of Fire Position
500 Yards 10 Min 10 Slow Prone

This yard line is often referred to as "gravy points" because the you really get to take your time here.

jmlivingston
02-19-2006, 10:28 PM
Very interesting! The Army course was 30 targets which would pop up at various distances, ranging from 25 meters to 300 meters.

And just because it's only been 15-20 years since I've been asked...


"Soldier! What is the maximum effective range of an M16a1 rifle!"
"Sergeant, the maximum effective range of an M16a1 is 460 meters!"


:D

John

xenophobe
02-19-2006, 11:35 PM
man size objects to 300m is easy with open sights. It's a lot easier than you would think.

CTT2
02-20-2006, 8:31 AM
Make life easier on yourself. Use a scope. Train like you fight, fight like you train. If your trying to hit something that far out with out a scope your doing yourself a disservice. But hey if you're not in a life or death situation go for it. (With open sights).

BigAL
02-20-2006, 8:43 AM
If your trying to hit something that far out with out a scope your doing yourself a disservice.

Not true at all. Nothing wrong with trying to improve your fixed sight shooting. And 300 isn't that far. IMO, people rely on scopes with big magnification way too much. Seeing someone shoot at 100 yds with a 20x scope is one of those things i'll never understand. But to each his own.

caliar15
02-20-2006, 9:50 AM
Make life easier on yourself. Use a scope. Train like you fight, fight like you train. If your trying to hit something that far out with out a scope your doing yourself a disservice. But hey if you're not in a life or death situation go for it. (With open sights).
Never bumped your scope out of zero have you? Life or death, give me irons any day.

30Cal
02-20-2006, 9:55 AM
Make life easier on yourself. Use a scope. Train like you fight, fight like you train. If your trying to hit something that far out with out a scope your doing yourself a disservice. But hey if you're not in a life or death situation go for it. (With open sights).

But shooting with a scope doesn't take any skill. If you can figure out which end of the rifle the bullet comes out of, you'll be able hit a 300yd target with a scope. Why play T-ball when you can play baseball?

http://webpages.charter.net/tyoberg/upload/DSCN7774.JPG

Yute
02-20-2006, 10:13 AM
Current Army Qual is 40 man sized targets from 50m up to and including 300m (not including alibis). I have gone through the qual process twice and while 300 shots can be harder, they can get done! And I'm not that great of a shot. First year sucked, couldn't hit any of the 300m targerts, heck I was firing at other peoples targets ("STAY IN YOUR LANE THERE HERO"). Those targets look small, but as long as you aim center mass and stick to the basic fundementals and you made your your rifle was zeroed in on the 25m range all you have to do is breath (maybe monopod the rifle on the mag if you're in the prone unsupported.. I do that, shhh...), get a good sight picture, hold and squeeze. Nothing more satisfying that seeing that 300 target go down. You don't even have to mess with your sights - locked in at center mass with a BZO from 50 to 300. Second year, thanks to someone giving me 5 extra rounds, I scored 41 out of 40. People wanted to kill me.
God I miss the Army!


And the m16a2s maximum effective range at a Point Target is 550m, Sgt!

NRAhighpowershooter
02-20-2006, 12:32 PM
Hey Ty... Thanks for posting my 300 rapid prone clean!! :D hehehee ;)

dwtt
02-20-2006, 2:03 PM
Make life easier on yourself. Use a scope. Train like you fight, fight like you train. If your trying to hit something that far out with out a scope your doing yourself a disservice.
Learning to shoot out to 500 yards with iron sights is not a disservice but is actually a benefit because it makes a person learn and practice good marksmanship skills. A scope will allow a shooter to see the target better, but it won't make up for an unstable hold, jerking the trigger, or poor breathing control. Have you ever shot a High Power match with a service rifle?

30Cal
02-20-2006, 5:02 PM
Hey Ty... Thanks for posting my 300 rapid prone clean!! :D hehehee ;)

Hehehe, Smarty! I'll let you know when I get a picture of "your" next clean target!

Ty

m1371
02-20-2006, 8:34 PM
Make life easier on yourself. Use a scope. Train like you fight, fight like you train. If your trying to hit something that far out with out a scope your doing yourself a disservice. But hey if you're not in a life or death situation go for it. (With open sights).

We need to get you out to HQMC ultra-fast so you can set things straight. :rolleyes:

The Marines have been doing themselves a disservice for HOW many decades, shooting out to 500m+ with ironsights only? :confused:

Geez, and to think I wasted all those years in the Corps going 10 for 10 at the 500yd line every time I did rifle qual. :eek:

jtv3062
02-20-2006, 8:55 PM
did anybody say dry fire? good practice for trigger control. my 1 time I got 9/10

Jicko
02-25-2006, 1:14 AM
I guess... when I first ask the question.... I wasn't thinking about just hitting a "man-sized" target....

I am used to pistol practical/competition shooting... that I actually aim for head, or torso..... so when I am trying to aim for head for a target that is out @ 100 or 200 yards/meters.... I found myself hardly even able to SEE the target... forget about aiming for the head....

Also, as the rear sight of the standard ARs is just a ring... sometimes i find it hard to know exactly i had put the tip of the frontsight post to the center of the ring....

Lastly, I am trying to shoot @ Orange "White Flyers" plates that I put out @ 100yards and more... and I am having a HARD time getting them.... both with my iron-sight as well as my EOTech....

CTT2
02-25-2006, 3:25 AM
I guess... when I first ask the question.... I wasn't thinking about just hitting a "man-sized" target....

I am used to pistol practical/competition shooting... that I actually aim for head, or torso..... so when I am trying to aim for head for a target that is out @ 100 or 200 yards/meters.... I found myself hardly even able to SEE the target... forget about aiming for the head....

Also, as the rear sight of the standard ARs is just a ring... sometimes i find it hard to know exactly i had put the tip of the frontsight post to the center of the ring....

Lastly, I am trying to shoot @ Orange "White Flyers" plates that I put out @ 100yards and more... and I am having a HARD time getting them.... both with my iron-sight as well as my EOTech....


Practice makes perfect. I remember at 10 meter's I couldn't hit at 2 1/2" target. Now at 10 meter's I can hit a pin head. At 100 meters hit a 6" target.

dwtt
02-25-2006, 8:01 AM
Also, as the rear sight of the standard ARs is just a ring... sometimes i find it hard to know exactly i had put the tip of the frontsight post to the center of the ring....

Lastly, I am trying to shoot @ Orange "White Flyers" plates that I put out @ 100yards and more... and I am having a HARD time getting them.... both with my iron-sight as well as my EOTech....
Are you shooting from the offhand, prone, sitting, or kneeling position? How are you using the sling on the rifle? I would really recommend shooting a few High Power matches since a person can learn a lot about sight alignment, sight picture, steady hold, and good trigger squeeze. You'll also learn about breathing control and getting your natural point of aim. After a while, it'll all seem normal, and when things aren't just right, you'll know it. Of course, it may just be your rifle isn't inherently accurate.

Demented_Mind
02-25-2006, 8:10 AM
What everyone is saying is true, practice, practice, practice. Just have to be sure you are not practicing bad habits. Dryfire is good, give yourself a "grass week" (most should know what I'm talking about). It all boils down to the fundamentals of marksmanship, and consistancy is key. Proper sight alignment, proper sight picture, focusing on a clear front sight post. Solid cheekweld with a high firm grip on the pistolgrip. Aim at the target, close your eyes then take a few breaths, open your eyes to see where you are aiming, natural point of aim should keep your front sight post lined up on the target, if not move your position don't muscle it back on target. You should fire at your natural respritory pause, don't hold your breath. You should use slow steady pressure to the rear on the trigger, notice I said pressure, not squeeze. Don't anticipate the shot, each "crack" should catch you off guard. And follow through with each shot, continue to hold the trigger to the rear for a few moments. These last few items if done correctly should prevent you from jerking the trigger. These are the basics, there are many more advanced shooting techniques but once these are learned and become second nature or "muscle memory" they will help you shoot out to the maximum effective range of your rifle. Given you have decent eyesight and the wind is not gusting too badly.

Just a side note for anyone interested. The USMC rifle couse has changed. It is now standing to sitting at the 200yd line rapid fire and standing to prone at the 300yd line rapid fire with 60 seconds vs. 70 for each rapid fire stage. Also, the Marine is allowed to use any type of sling setup throughout the entire course of fire, including the 200yd line offhand and the 500yd line which once required a loop sling.

Jicko
02-25-2006, 2:41 PM
Position wise, I have been trying many different ones.... my main concerns is that I can hardly SEE my targets.... as they are 6in Orange-colored WhiteFlyers....

Regarding sling.... i don't have one....

Are you shooting from the offhand, prone, sitting, or kneeling position? How are you using the sling on the rifle? I would really recommend shooting a few High Power matches since a person can learn a lot about sight alignment, sight picture, steady hold, and good trigger squeeze. You'll also learn about breathing control and getting your natural point of aim. After a while, it'll all seem normal, and when things aren't just right, you'll know it. Of course, it may just be your rifle isn't inherently accurate.

I'm down south in San Diego county..... any HighPowerMatch around?

Demented_Mind
02-25-2006, 2:50 PM
If possible, you should try to use a white background with a black target. IMO it should be the easiest to see. You should get a sling, it will help keep your firing position tight. It may sound dumb, but do you wear glasses? Are you using them? I don't know how many times I have been coaching on a range trying to help a troubled shooter only to find out that he is not wearing his glasses!!! DOH!!

mechandy
02-25-2006, 4:23 PM
I like to use about a 24" round gong to hear the report.
It's a quick gratification thing.
You can paint it any way you want and working it with a spotter at first is a good training aid.
I know you are discussing rifles but this is a great training aid for pistols as well.
For me there aint nothing better than constantly banging the gong with my P1640 @ 200 yards.

Pthfndr
02-25-2006, 6:26 PM
I'm down south in San Diego county..... any HighPowerMatch around?

The only ones near SD I'm aware of are the ones at the Santa Margerita club.

Here's a link to their web site: http://www.santamargaritagunclub.org/

Click on "schedule" to see when they have matches, not "matches".