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pullnshoot25
04-08-2010, 10:06 AM
So how does an ffl determine if a firearm is stolen? Does an ffl have access to a special database? Does an ffl have to run a dros first?

Curiosity pervades me.:)

pullnshoot25
04-08-2010, 6:40 PM
Seriously? No one?

*Crickets*

tenpercentfirearms
04-08-2010, 8:18 PM
There are two ways for me to find out if a gun is stolen. #1: on handguns run it through DROS. If the serial number is stolen, then I will get a delay response. #2: call the local PD and ask them to run a number to see if it is stolen.

That is it.

pullnshoot25
04-08-2010, 8:39 PM
Could you be more specific? What is the scenario? FFL assumes the weapon is stolen and contacts the A.T.F.? Stolen while in transit to the FFL? Stolen after FFL took possession?

I am not a FFL, but I could tell you, the A.T.F. would have all your answers.

Besides, its only stolen if someone reports it so. ;)

Scenario: You have a gun that you want to buy (say, a C&R rifle) but you want to make sure that it is not stolen before you go through with the purchase.

There are two ways for me to find out if a gun is stolen. #1: on handguns run it through DROS. If the serial number is stolen, then I will get a delay response. #2: call the local PD and ask them to run a number to see if it is stolen.

^^Perfect. This is EXACTLY what I needed to know.

That is it.

kemasa
04-09-2010, 3:22 PM
Unfortunately, the BATF does not keep a database of stolen firearms that is made available to FFLs or to non-law enforcement. Local law enforcement do keep track of stolen firearms, but it is not centralized. Personally, I think that a central database of stolen firearms would be a good thing, but how do you get someone with the resources to do it?

I think that one reason why people did not answer is due to the fact that the request could be an attempt to figure out how to sell a stolen firearm without getting caught.

pullnshoot25
04-09-2010, 3:33 PM
Unfortunately, the BATF does not keep a database of stolen firearms. Local law enforcement do keep track of stolen firearms, but it is not centralized. Personally, I think that a central database of stolen firearms would be a good thing, but how do you get someone with the resources to do it?

I think that one reason why people did not answer is due to the fact that the request could be an attempt to figure out how to sell a stolen firearm without getting caught.

So basically... the DOJ does not have a list of stolen firearms that can be checked? What happens if someone is DROS'd a stolen firearm in another locale?

I ask these questions for purely legitimate reasons. Given my documented propensity for following even the most asinine of laws, I think that any conjectures about the information I seek being for shady purposes, especially on a public board that is read by every government underling this side of hell, is a little far-fetched.

kemasa
04-09-2010, 3:56 PM
I think the DOJ might have a list, but they do not tell people or FFLs about it, so it can not be used for long guns. It is nothing that is public.

A long gun DROS does not have the serial number. If the DOJ checks the serial numbers for stolen handguns and if they share the information with the place that it was reported stolen, then it should get flagged.

I am not saying that the reason why you are asking is shady, but that it is an area in which people may not want to answer. One would not want to give anyone an idea on a public forum as to how they might be able to sell a stolen firearm and get away with it, regardless of what your intent is.

warbird
04-09-2010, 4:07 PM
The real question is whether you are looking to see if the gun was reported stolen or is the person you are buying it from the last recorded owner of record through the DROS process. Many guns have still been sold without the DROS being done over the last decade in this state and while the gun might not be stolen, sold on a written bill of sale, the sale would not be reflected in the DROS records. But it isn't a stolen gun either. And not all local agencies have turned in every stolen gun report. There are a couple of sites on the internet where you can go https://www.stolenweapon.com/Stolen-Gun-Search.html or http://www.hotgunz.com/. There are others as well in addition to law enforcement only lists.

pullnshoot25
04-09-2010, 4:08 PM
I think the DOJ might have a list, but they do not tell people or FFLs about it, so it can not be used for long guns. It is nothing that is public.

A long gun DROS does not have the serial number. If the DOJ checks the serial numbers for stolen handguns and if they share the information with the place that it was reported stolen, then it should get flagged.

I am not saying that the reason why you are asking is shady, but that it is an area in which people may not want to answer. One would not want to give anyone an idea on a public forum as to how they might be able to sell a stolen firearm and get away with it, regardless of what your intent is.

Fair enough, fair enough. Hmmph...

halifax
04-09-2010, 4:08 PM
NCIC is the FBI's database that includes stolen firearms but access is only available to LE.

tenpercentfirearms
04-10-2010, 6:27 AM
I think that one reason why people did not answer is due to the fact that the request could be an attempt to figure out how to sell a stolen firearm without getting caught.

I am not quite sure why anyone would be concerned about this. The easiest way to buy a stolen firearm without getting caught is to give the guy the money and take the gun. If that isn't obvious to you readers out there, then we are definitely drawing from the bottom of the pool here.

I think he has a legitimate concern that he is buying a gun from a guy and he doesn't want to buy a stolen gun.

Another option is to tell the seller (whether it is a handgun or a long gun) that you will not pay him until the gun clears background. Think of the FFL as an escrow agent. The gun sits in a ten day escrow and when it clears, you will give him the money. You might even ask the FFL to hold onto the money in an envelope and when it clears, the seller can come pick it up.

Now only handguns are going to get caught this way, but if you know anyone in law enforcement, you might ask a favor to run the serial number on a long gun. If it comes up stolen, then drop a dime and the police can go recover a stolen gun from the dealer. You might be out the $35 for a PPT, but someone gets their gun back and you get your money back from the dealer. Sucks to be the seller, but hey, don't deal in stolen firearms.

I generally don't care if guns are stolen or not as there isn't much I can do about it unless someone comes in and says their guns were stolen and to keep an eye out. However, the idea of helping someone get their property back does excite me because I know how much that must hurt to have something taken from you. If I could help get it returned, I would be game.

kemasa
04-10-2010, 9:44 AM
Wes, please read what was said and try to understand the issues involved. It is not about how to buy a stolen firearm, as that is easy to as you know what is involved. The real issue involved is how to sell a stolen firearm without getting caught. It is assumed that the seller knows whether the firearm is stolen and that the buyer does not.

Yes, it is a concern when you buy a firearm from a person. What you don't want to do is to give information to a person who wants to sell a stolen firearm to make it easier for them to sell such a firearm. If the firearm is unique and can be spotted by just the pictures, then the person would have to be more careful. On the other hand, if the firearm is common, you don't want to tell a person how they can sell the firearm as if it were not stolen. You want them to try to sell it in a way that the buyer would assume that there is some issue with it.

I personally care if guns are stolen as I don't want to get involved in such things and you should feel the same way too. While there is not much that I can do about it, I will not do a transfer if it seems that there is some issue with the firearm. Asking questions can help to catch people with stolen firearms.

tenpercentfirearms
04-10-2010, 1:17 PM
Wes, please read what was said and try to understand the issues involved. It is not about how to buy a stolen firearm, as that is easy to as you know what is involved. The real issue involved is how to sell a stolen firearm without getting caught. It is assumed that the seller knows whether the firearm is stolen and that the buyer does not.

Yes, it is a concern when you buy a firearm from a person. What you don't want to do is to give information to a person who wants to sell a stolen firearm to make it easier for them to sell such a firearm. If the firearm is unique and can be spotted by just the pictures, then the person would have to be more careful. On the other hand, if the firearm is common, you don't want to tell a person how they can sell the firearm as if it were not stolen. You want them to try to sell it in a way that the buyer would assume that there is some issue with it.

I personally care if guns are stolen as I don't want to get involved in such things and you should feel the same way too. While there is not much that I can do about it, I will not do a transfer if it seems that there is some issue with the firearm. Asking questions can help to catch people with stolen firearms.

Again, it is pretty much common sense that if you sell a long gun and no serial number is submitted, it could be stolen and no one would ever know. I am not sure how talking about it in this thread makes it less of a secret when we do nothing but tell people there is no long gun registration in all of the other threads.

Just take the flip side, this thread is how to protect yourself from buying a stolen gun. And possibly, if you suspect it is stolen, a way to get it in the dealers hand, notify police, and get that firearm returned to its rightful owner at only a potential cost of $35.

jksupplyco
04-10-2010, 1:20 PM
The Automated Firearms System is Californias database for firearms. If I recall correctly, it can be accessed through the CLETS system by Law Enforcement. Obviously in Ca, if a handgun serial is run in the AFS, it will come back with a registered owner, not so much for long guns. However, if a long gun is reported stolen, and the agency that takes the report imputs that info into the AFS, the long gun becomes flagged as stolen, providing the reporting party had a serial number to report. If by chance you purchased a stolen long gun that had been reported by serial number as such, and you got through the DROS process, you may never know that you were in possession of a stolen firearm, nor would anyone else for that matter. Now, if by unfortunate circumstance, you had interaction with an LEO that ran the serial numbers in the AFS, and it came back stolen, you may have issues. You would however, likely be absolved from liability for said stolen property, as the FFL that facilitated the PPT would have record of where, when, and from whom the long gun was transfered.

halifax
04-10-2010, 1:50 PM
If FFLs can provide a service for LE, why is LE so adverse to running numbers for FFLs?

jksupplyco
04-10-2010, 2:24 PM
If FFLs can provide a service for LE, why is LE so adverse to running numbers for FFLs?

Have you contacted your local Sheriffs Dept to inquire?

halifax
04-10-2010, 3:18 PM
Have you contacted your local Sheriffs Dept to inquire?

Yep. I was told that those services are for official use only and they even have to justify their use of it. :confused:

pullnshoot25
04-10-2010, 4:34 PM
Yep. I was told that those services are for official use only and they even have to justify their use of it. :confused:

And I can tell you from personal experience that a lot of cops just absolutely LOOOOVE running serials.

tenpercentfirearms
04-11-2010, 7:18 AM
My relationship with local law enforcement is such that I probably wouldn't have a hard time finding out if a gun was stolen or not. If coppers can run serial numbers at traffic stops, then it isn't going to be too hard to run a serial number for a gun dealer that suspects a stolen firearm.

kemasa
04-11-2010, 10:36 AM
People do not know all of the details of the paperwork and what happens to it. If they did, then they would never put their social security numbers on the 4473 as it serves no purpose to do so.

Do most people know that if you sell two hanguns within 5 days to the same person that you have to fill out a form and report it? No, they don't. They also don't know if there is a process to check to see if firearms are stolen or not.

taperxz
04-11-2010, 12:13 PM
Not all gun dealers want to help you get your stuff back. Tabor in San Bruno sold me a couple long rifles that were then stolen from me. When i went back to him to see if he could look up the serials for me he said he didnt have time. He was more than thrilled to sell me a couple new rifles though.

kemasa
04-11-2010, 1:52 PM
It can be difficult to go through all the records, but it still would be nice if they tried, as time permitted.

Honestly, anything that you buy that has a decent value to you should be recorded in a safe location. This can help with recovery and/or convicting the criminal. This includes cell phones, GPS devices, radar detectors, TVs, stereos, electronics, stoves, computers, etc.

jksupplyco
04-11-2010, 2:35 PM
It can be difficult to go through all the records, but it still would be nice if they tried, as time permitted.

Honestly, anything that you buy that has a decent value to you should be recorded in a safe location. This can help with recovery and/or convicting the criminal. This includes cell phones, GPS devices, radar detectors, TVs, stereos, electronics, stoves, computers, etc.



+10000000000

:)

taperxz
04-11-2010, 2:40 PM
I agree and i thought i had the info!! I know its not easy for the store owner but i had purchased 8 firearms from him in the past. The shop in Colusa that i purchased my new socom from (replacement) told me they would have no problem getting that number to me if i bought it from them to help LE locate that stolen weapon. I got the same reply from all other dealers. I just hope Tabor knows i will never buy a firearm from him again and will tell all my buddies the story. I to am in business and word of mouth rules in my opinion.

BTW i gave him the year and the month i bought the socom from him.

yzernie
04-11-2010, 5:30 PM
I have never had any problem calling the local LE and ask them to run the serial number of a gun to see if it is stolen. ;)

ugimports
04-12-2010, 12:32 PM
I agree and i thought i had the info!! I know its not easy for the store owner but i had purchased 8 firearms from him in the past. The shop in Colusa that i purchased my new socom from (replacement) told me they would have no problem getting that number to me if i bought it from them to help LE locate that stolen weapon. I got the same reply from all other dealers. I just hope Tabor knows i will never buy a firearm from him again and will tell all my buddies the story. I to am in business and word of mouth rules in my opinion.

BTW i gave him the year and the month i bought the socom from him.

For future reference you can request copies of your 4473. It isn't standard practice to hand it out, but there's nothing restricting the FFL from providing you copies. In fact, some manufacturers require copies of your 4473 for warranty registration. I've made copies for any customer that has requested them and of DROS paperwork too if so requested.

In short, if you want to make sure you always have an "official" copy of paperwork for your firearms always ask for a copy of your 4473. Not only will it have your serial number info on it it will have the exact date that you took possession of your firearm.

halifax
04-12-2010, 1:09 PM
I have never had any problem calling the local LE and ask them to run the serial number of a gun to see if it is stolen. ;)

Nice to have friends in high places Ernie :p

You are former(?) LE aren't you?

thomashoward
04-12-2010, 2:35 PM
Stolen? or reported stolen. Used to be a statute of limitation 3 years and one day after a gun was REPORTED stolen. Doesn't mean you are going to be allowed to keep it

yzernie
04-12-2010, 6:09 PM
Nice to have friends in high places Ernie :p

You are former(?) LE aren't you?
LOL, still active but only for 1yr, 9mos, 3 days and 10 hours and 50 minutes....but, I'm not counting!!! :D

yzernie
04-12-2010, 6:12 PM
Stolen? or reported stolen. Used to be a statute of limitation 3 years and one day after a gun was REPORTED stolen. Doesn't mean you are going to be allowed to keep it
The Statute of Limitations does not come into play after it was reported stolen. It will stay listed as stolen in NCIC forever or until recovered.

pullnshoot25
04-12-2010, 10:59 PM
I have never had any problem calling the local LE and ask them to run the serial number of a gun to see if it is stolen. ;)

How about 20-30 at a time?