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View Full Version : Listed Lower, not registered


Justang
02-15-2006, 6:26 AM
Lets say a person did not register an AR15 lower back in 2000, and it is now listed. How do you get rid of it without getting into any legal trouble.

Can you turn it in to local police?
Can you send it via FFL out of state?

I have a friend that has one and asked me about this new registration coming up. I told him, it's not legal for him to have his listed lower and he must get rid of it. I think I got my point across, but he doesn't know how to get rid of it w/o getting into any trouble. He doesn't care if he keeps it or loses it, just so long as he doesn't get into any trouble. Any suggestions?

HK_Fan
02-15-2006, 6:35 AM
I would say destroy it. Sawzall and garbage can...

SgtBulldog
02-15-2006, 6:37 AM
Take every part off the rifle, install it back into a new unlisted lower. Bury, destroy, or surrender the old one.

Super_tactical
02-15-2006, 6:39 AM
I can maybe 'dispose' of it for you. :cool:

marklbucla
02-15-2006, 6:40 AM
I'd be afraid of putting my name on anything, proving that I owned one during the ban period.

If it were me, I'd take a sledge hammer to it real good and not tell anyone.

Justang
02-15-2006, 6:44 AM
It has no parts on it. It's just a bare receiver. And it was forgotten about until he moved recently.

-hanko
02-15-2006, 7:13 AM
I think I got my point across, but he doesn't know how to get rid of it w/o getting into any trouble. He doesn't care if he keeps it or loses it, just so long as he doesn't get into any trouble. Any suggestions?
I'll pay his shipping to my ffl, just let me know to whom to fax a copy of my ffl's license:D. To stay legal, he needs to ship the receiver via a prk ffl who holds an "assault" weapon permit from the prk doj. If I were your friend, I'd get rid of the listed lower only...keep the rest for a build with an unlisted lower. Lemme' know...email is best.

Obviously, I do not reside in the prk at this time; shipping out of state via an ffl on your end (again, your ffl has an aw permit) is within the law.

-hanko

TonyM
02-15-2006, 7:21 AM
Tell your friend it isn't worth the possible trouble to take it anywhere to send it out of state, if it isn't a colt it's not worth more than $90 new outside California. Have him wrap it in a towel and take a good sized sledge hammer to it and dispose of all the peices.

Also, tell him as a firearm owner it is his responsibility to stay informed of the laws that are passed.


Funny how every month or so someone here has a friend that had this happen to...

anotherted
02-15-2006, 7:22 AM
I would take the financial loss and go out back, grab a sledge hammer and beat it until you could not tell it from a tin can. Then id break it into about 10 pieces, wait till trash day, and throw each piece into a different neighbors trash can. But hey, thats just me.

Justang
02-15-2006, 7:34 AM
It's destroyed.

Mute
02-15-2006, 7:35 AM
He should have a boating accident and lose it in a big body of water.

Super_tactical
02-15-2006, 7:41 AM
It's destroyed.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

bwiese
02-15-2006, 8:10 AM
Unreg'd AWs can lawfully be surrendered by prearranged agreement with police and sheriff's depts.

Nevertheless it might be a good idea to have an attorney make the arrangment.

Trying to move it out of state is riskier than retaining it at home. Possession of one AW at home can result in misdemeanor 12280(b) charges - but illegal transport (i.e., unregistered) likely results in a felony 12280(a) charge.

xenophobe
02-15-2006, 9:46 AM
Lets say a person did not register an AR15 lower back in 2000, and it is now listed. How do you get rid of it without getting into any legal trouble.

Just FYI, any receiver marked AR-15 (trademarked) would be Colt and would have to have been registered by Jan 1, 1990 as per Roberti Roos.


Can you turn it in to local police?
Can you send it via FFL out of state?


Yes, you can turn in unregistered assault weapons to the police without fear of prosecution or trouble.

No, technically you are not allowed to sell unregistered AWs out of state. If they're illegally possessed, taking or sending them across the state border would make them illegal contraband elsewhere... due to interstate commerce law. Many people still do this, but dealers in Nevada and Oregon have been warned by the DOJ and will not buy unregistered AWs from Californians without showing their AW Registration paperwork.

Or, a dealer with a FFL and a California Assault Weapons Permit may be able to purchase it or transfer it out of state, but if it's unregistered, I haven't a clue.

bwiese
02-15-2006, 10:05 AM
No, technically you are not allowed to sell unregistered AWs out of state. If they're illegally possessed, taking or sending them across the state border would make them illegal contraband elsewhere... due to interstate commerce law. Many people still do this, but dealers in Nevada and Oregon have been warned by the DOJ and will not buy unregistered AWs from Californians without showing their AW Registration paperwork.

That's scare wording only.

Many, many CA folks moved their AWs out of CA rather than registering them. They store, possess and use them out of state quite legally and just do not bring them into CA. They would be perfectly legal to sell these legally-owned firearms to a AZ, NV, OR, etc. FFL like any other rifle. The out of state FFL would not be in a position to determine if the rifle had just come from CA, or had been stored in a Reno storage locker for the last 6 years...

I would love to see a copy of that letter.

The real risk is on the trip out of state - due to a 12280(a) felony violation of illegal transport of unreg'd AW on top of a misdemeanor unreg'd AW possession.


Or, a dealer with a FFL and a California Assault Weapons Permit may be able to purchase it or transfer it out of state, but if it's unregistered, I haven't a clue.

If you had an illegal/unreg'd AW that would be almost self-incriminatory to try to sell it via a permitted CA AW dealer. I'm sure some red lights would go off somewhere...

xenophobe
02-15-2006, 10:24 AM
That's scare wording only.

Many, many CA folks moved their AWs out of CA rather than registering them. They store, possess and use them out of state quite legally and just do not bring them into CA. They would be perfectly legal to sell these legally-owned firearms to a AZ, NV, OR, etc. FFL like any other rifle. The out of state FFL would not be in a position to determine if the rifle had just come from CA, or had been stored in a Reno storage locker for the last 6 years...

I would love to see a copy of that letter.


We display and buy at the Reno show religiously. I don't think I've seen a letter, only been informed of this by NV dealers via word of mouth whom we've tried to arrainge AW sales for people who didn't reg their AWs. They won't take them. Reno is coming up next month, if you go maybe you could ask a NV dealer or two and get clarification.

EDIT: I'm also being very literal with what the laws that I've been informed are, and I have to be. Personally, if you own an unregistered AW, moving out of state, or finding someone that will store it for you are just fine... look at Front Site... aren't they still storing AWs for California residents? Moving them or retaining ownership of them out of state are not issues that I'm aware have been brought up. Californians transporting illegal firearms across the border to sell, including to licensed FFLs is not legal, from what I have been told. Also, my answers, unless I'm stating personal opinion is what I legally need to tell someone who comes into the store and asks. I cannot offer illegal advice, nor can I recommend a way to circumvent existing law. Doing so would just be reckless and could put myself, or the store I work at in some kind of legal tight spot that I'm not willing to get into.



If you had an illegal/unreg'd AW that would be almost self-incriminatory to try to sell it via a permitted CA AW dealer. I'm sure some red lights would go off somewhere...

I would be worred about that too. Since we're not an AW dealer, I am not informed as to how that works. We do have a High-Cap Mag Permit, and there is a seperate book where we log in aquisitions and dispositions. Perhaps CA AW Dealers would have to do something similar. I also don't have a clue if they need to call and verify the legal/registration status of a AW with the DOJ when taking it in from a California citizen.

Justang
02-15-2006, 7:15 PM
Technically it was an XM15.

xenophobe
02-15-2006, 7:48 PM
Technically it was an XM15.

Are you talking about the CAR-15 or the XM-177E1/E2?

AR-15 is a Colt Trademark, and is named on the California list. I'm not aware if Colt has the name XM-177 trademarked, but it is not a named weapon as all Colt CAR-15's and XM-177's are machine guns and were never made by Colt in semi-auto configurations, at least to the best of my knowlege.

PIRATE14
02-15-2006, 7:59 PM
A FFL in Cali w/ a AW cannot accept a unregistered lower for transfer out of state..........crazy but true.

It's contraband and it's easiest to just destroy the lower or get a lawyer to turn it in.

There are other ways but it all involves risk.............

EBWhite
02-15-2006, 8:10 PM
He should have just kept it hidden away, or moved it out of state and sold it at a out of state gun show, private party. Sure maybe not legit but the laws force good citizen to jump through hoops

gidddy169
02-15-2006, 8:11 PM
I have been to the Reno gun show a few times and each time I have met a new guy form CA with a so called unregistered AW and everytime there has been a table more than willing to accept there rifle for $500 to $600. Personally all the rifles I have seen were worth way more than that.

xenophobe
02-15-2006, 9:48 PM
Bushmaster lowers are marked Mod. XM15-E2S.

XM177E2 was a US Army designation (USAF was GAU-5 even though it wasn't actually an aircraft mounted gun) for the first generation carbines fitted with telescoping buttstocks and 11 1/5" barrels, and no, there were never any semi-auto versions. Some were fitted with a longer flash suppressor which was actually classified as a sound suppressor by the ATF because it reduced the report to roughly that of a 20" barreled rifle.

Colt tried and failed to copyright M4 for themselves and lost, even though they did most of the R&D on their own.

I was just wondering why he brought up XM15 and he didn't quote anyone. I got lost in the convo. Now I realize that's the receiver he's talking about. heh

Well, the CAR-15 was the first Commando and predecessor to the XM177E1 which the government spec'd based off the CAR-15. The E1 was based on the first M-16 without a forward assist and a few other features. I'm pretty sure the E2 added forward assist. I know some of the early Colts were indeed marked XM177E2, and we had a few Colt XM-177 receiver guns in basic training at Ft Benning. Although all of the rest of the components were replaced at one time, the receivers were still in use some 30 years later.

m1aowner
02-15-2006, 9:49 PM
Can we see some pics of the destruction please.:) MUST SEE SMASHED METAL!

Justang
02-15-2006, 11:04 PM
It was a Bushy XM15. I don't know where all this Colt stuff came from. I never mentioned Colt. I said AR15, but, well, that's just slang for this type of gun.

EBWhite
02-15-2006, 11:13 PM
I think the owner who distroyed a fine piece of machinary should be distroyed himself. lol

Justang
02-15-2006, 11:17 PM
I think the owner who distroyed a fine piece of machinary should be distroyed himself. lol

Yes it's much better he go to jail over it instead of destroying it and getting an off list lower. ;)

EBWhite
02-16-2006, 1:06 AM
Well, he had 2 better choices...

Hide it and forget it....(its been okay for 5+ years now)
Go to a NV gun show and sell it private party. It will pay for the trip there and he could pick up some cool stuff there anyways...

trbon8r
02-16-2006, 5:32 AM
bwiese has it right. There is nothing illegal about selling unregistered California AWs in Arizona or Nevada assuming the weapons were moved out of the state prior to the ban. SB 23 permitted owners of AWs to lawfully remove them from the state in lieu of registration. However, the "friend" you are talking about is in a tougher spot since he did not remove the receiver from CA before the registration period had closed.

The long arm of the DOJ isn't long enough to reach into free America, as much as they would like to think otherwise.

ohsmily
02-16-2006, 7:06 AM
Well, he had 2 better choices...

Hide it and forget it....(its been okay for 5+ years now)
Go to a NV gun show and sell it private party. It will pay for the trip there and he could pick up some cool stuff there anyways...

well, you keep offering up the idea of bringing to an out of state gun show...but this would require him to transport it there, and if he got caught doing it, he would be charged with a felony...some of us don't like to take those risks...
So, what you see a better option is an inferior choice to many of us.

bwiese
02-16-2006, 8:36 AM
Well, he had 2 better choices...

Hide it and forget it....(its been okay for 5+ years now)
Go to a NV gun show and sell it private party. It will pay for the trip there and he could pick up some cool stuff there anyways...

Dude,

You don't get it. It's worth the $500-$700 bucks to expose himself to multiple felony charges?

Illegal transport of an AW (and ureg'd AW) is a more severe law than simple possession of an unreg'd AW.

One burnt out taillight or speeding ticket and your gun rights are gone for life - let alone felony charges, fine and jail time.

You may not value your life and freedom much, and $500-$700 may be a lot of money to you, but don't go telling other folks to do this unless you wanna do their cell time.

Justang
02-16-2006, 4:48 PM
Dude,

You don't get it. It's worth the $500-$700 bucks to expose himself to multiple felony charges?

Illegal transport of an AW (and ureg'd AW) is a more severe law than simple possession of an unreg'd AW.

One burnt out taillight or speeding ticket and your gun rights are gone for life - let alone felony charges, fine and jail time.

You may not value your life and freedom much, and $500-$700 may be a lot of money to you, but don't go telling other folks to do this unless you wanna do their cell time.

Exactly.

And it's probably worth less than $100 since it's a bare receiver.

edwardm
02-16-2006, 5:07 PM
Dude,

You don't get it. It's worth the $500-$700 bucks to expose himself to multiple felony charges?

Illegal transport of an AW (and ureg'd AW) is a more severe law than simple possession of an unreg'd AW.

One burnt out taillight or speeding ticket and your gun rights are gone for life - let alone felony charges, fine and jail time.

You may not value your life and freedom much, and $500-$700 may be a lot of money to you, but don't go telling other folks to do this unless you wanna do their cell time.

How do you get from a burned out tail light, to probable cause to execute a vehicle search? Seems like a jump to me.

blacklisted
02-16-2006, 5:10 PM
How do you get from a burned out tail light, to probable cause to execute a vehicle search? Seems like a jump to me.

They do this all the time, I've even seen it on COPS. Pull someone over for a busted taillight or failing to signal and searching the vehicle.

It's definately not worth the risk for ~$100

ady
02-16-2006, 5:10 PM
I think you made the right choice and commend you in your decision.life is hard enough and can become very fragile in a hurry.

Justang
02-16-2006, 5:57 PM
How do you get from a burned out tail light, to probable cause to execute a vehicle search? Seems like a jump to me.

Not really. I've been on ride a longs with friends and we pull people over for stupid ****, simply because my friend knows these people have drug priors. He finds a reason to search, and they go down.
Cops are sneaky. They have to be.