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View Full Version : 14.5 in Barrel Question


sean168472
02-13-2006, 3:04 PM
I have noticed on the AR-15 picture thread a lot of people have 14.5 in barrels with a permanant flash suppressor attached. My question is this, can you have a 14.5 in barrel with a removable flash suppressor in which you would pay $200 to the ATF and register it as a short barrel rifle? Or is this a big no no for people who live in california? I plan on having a standard 20 in barrel myself and have always thought that it was a little strange to sacrifice bullet effectiveness for maneuverability..... I am just curious of the law.

C.G.
02-13-2006, 3:11 PM
No SBRs in CA

And 16" is the minimum length in CA.

grammaton76
02-13-2006, 3:13 PM
And 16" is the minimum length in CA.

Minimum overall barrel length. Perm. affixed flash hiders are ok to bring the length up, otherwise CWS wouldn't be selling the 14.5" barrels with perm. flash hiders.

Stanze
02-13-2006, 3:16 PM
I believe as long as your barrel and flash hider are 16" it's CA-Legal on your fixed mag AR. I know folks who have Bushmaster 11.5 barrels with permanent 5.5 flash hiders for a total length of 16".

I would opt for the extra velocity of the 16", but 14.5" is more accurate for a M4-orgery.

sean168472
02-13-2006, 3:26 PM
When people purchase the 14.5 in barrels...Is it required that they are imported with a permantly attached flash hider or could they install it themselves before attaching it legally to their fixed 10rd lower?

ArmedBear
02-13-2006, 3:29 PM
You can have a 5" barrel with a welded-on 11" muzzlebrake if you want - better make it 11.1" to be safe. The law doesn't care about the bore, just concealability. So anything that's fixed at 16"+ long, with the bullet traveling inside, is legal.

Stanze
02-13-2006, 3:29 PM
When people purchase the 14.5 in barrels...Is it required that they are imported with a permantly attached flash hider or could they install it themselves before attaching it legally to their fixed 10rd lower?

Less than 16" barrels are legal to purchase, it could be a replacement part of your pre-ban AR pistol.:D

You have to permanently attach the flash hider to the barrel, before installing. Otherwise you have a illegal SBR.

grammaton76
02-13-2006, 3:31 PM
When people purchase the 14.5 in barrels...Is it required that they are imported with a permantly attached flash hider or could they install it themselves before attaching it legally to their fixed 10rd lower?

I don't think you can legally import it yourself. Hector over at CWS has an AW permit, and I know he imported one and fixed a flash hider before selling it when he ran out of the Stag limited 14.5's like the one I bought.

I don't think YOU can import a less-than-16" barrel, but AW permit holders can do so, de-SBR it by perm. affixing the barrel, and sell it to you.

Now, I could be wrong on this, and it would be cool if I am. But I don't think so.

sintax
02-13-2006, 4:20 PM
you can bring in what ever you like. You can bring in a few boxes of 10.5" barrels if you like. Just dont put them on anything with a stock and you'll be in good shape.

bobfried
02-13-2006, 5:12 PM
Yup, you can bring in any kind of parts you want, as long as it's not a reciever or regulated (Class 3, NFA all of which are illegal in PRK anyways) your good to go.

ohsmily
02-13-2006, 5:32 PM
I don't think you can legally import it yourself. Hector over at CWS has an AW permit, and I know he imported one and fixed a flash hider before selling it when he ran out of the Stag limited 14.5's like the one I bought.

I don't think YOU can import a less-than-16" barrel, but AW permit holders can do so, de-SBR it by perm. affixing the barrel, and sell it to you.

Now, I could be wrong on this, and it would be cool if I am. But I don't think so.

well, it is cool then, because you are wrong. No constructive possession of a short barrel. You can buy the short barrel, "import" it, and then permanently affix a brake or flash suppressor (SB23 applies to the flash suppressor).

shopkeep
02-13-2006, 6:19 PM
you can bring in what ever you like. You can bring in a few boxes of 10.5" barrels if you like. Just dont put them on anything with a stock and you'll be in good shape.

This is true, however like in the case of off-list lowers, many folks won't sell them out of paranoia.

sean168472
02-24-2006, 12:54 AM
Is it expensive for a gunsmith to perm fix a flash suppressor to your barrel?

akjunkie
02-24-2006, 6:37 AM
here's my answer from bushmaster when i ordered a 14.5 with a Phantom FH from them post 9/14/04 (actually sent my upper in for barrel replacement).

MY Question:

"i just got my upper back from you today. you installed a 14.5 PRE-BAN M4 barrel with a Phantom 2 Flash hider on my upper. NO where on the Receipt does it say the Flash hider is PERMANENTLY INSTALLED. is it Permanently installed????? all i see is a peel/crush washer. if it is, Can you send me Another receipt with the Same INVOICE number listed above stating that it is Permanently Installed. according to this Link> http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/barrel-assemblies/abbl-14.5a.asp "an Izzy or Phantom FH must be Permenantly attached to make this Barrel LEGAL." Please keep me posted. worst case scenario i would have to send my Upper back to you to have it Permanently WELDED so i dont become a FELON. "

THEIR Answer:

"If the flash suppressor was not permanently installed the invoice would state that it must be used on title II or NFA firearm. The part number A BBL-14M4AM2 indicates that it is permanently attached.
If it were not permanently attached there would be three part numbers. The 14.5" M4 barrel would be A BBL-14.5M4, the Phantom would be part number YHM-28-5C1 and a part number for the peel or crush washer. "

Thank you,
Jim Eden, Tech Support

hope this helps
akjunkie

Centurion_D
02-24-2006, 8:11 AM
here's my answer from bushmaster when i ordered a 14.5 with a Phantom FH from them post 9/14/04 (actually sent my upper in for barrel replacement).

MY Question:

"i just got my upper back from you today. you installed a 14.5 PRE-BAN M4 barrel with a Phantom 2 Flash hider on my upper. NO where on the Receipt does it say the Flash hider is PERMANENTLY INSTALLED. is it Permanently installed????? all i see is a peel/crush washer. if it is, Can you send me Another receipt with the Same INVOICE number listed above stating that it is Permanently Installed. according to this Link> http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/barrel-assemblies/abbl-14.5a.asp "an Izzy or Phantom FH must be Permenantly attached to make this Barrel LEGAL." Please keep me posted. worst case scenario i would have to send my Upper back to you to have it Permanently WELDED so i dont become a FELON. "

THEIR Answer:

"If the flash suppressor was not permanently installed the invoice would state that it must be used on title II or NFA firearm. The part number A BBL-14M4AM2 indicates that it is permanently attached.
If it were not permanently attached there would be three part numbers. The 14.5" M4 barrel would be A BBL-14.5M4, the Phantom would be part number YHM-28-5C1 and a part number for the peel or crush washer. "

Thank you,
Jim Eden, Tech Support

hope this helps
akjunkie

Well on the website is say's "This barrel is under the legal 16" minimum for semi-auto rifles and must be installed on registered full autos or legal short barrel rifles." If you live in the PRK you cannot have this slapped onto you lower...no ands', no if's, no but's. The PRK does not allow barrel lenghts of less than 16 inches. Trust me..I looked into it. It would be nice. Check out this site http://www.gunlaw.com/contraband.phtml Read #9 and #10

9. MACHINE GUNS, SHORT BARRELED RIFLES, SHORT BARRELED SHOTGUNS OR SMOOTH BORE PISTOLS UNDER FEDERAL LAW. Manufacture, sale and possession of these "gangster weapons" is regulated and taxed under the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934. NFA registration is also required for unserviceable machine guns, cannons, and some other war souvenirs. Mere possession of an unregistered NFA weapon may result in a prison sentence of up to ten years. No amnesty has been offered to permit voluntary registration of NFA weapons since 1968. Lawful dispositions of unregistered NFA weapons are abandonment or forfeiture to a government agency, but immunity from prosecution is not guaranteed. NFA restrictions do not apply to shotguns with barrels 18" or longer and an overall length of 26" or more, nor do NFA rules apply to rifles with barrels 16" or longer and an overall length of 26" or more.

10. MACHINE GUNS, SHORT BARRELED RIFLES, SHORT BARRELED SHOTGUNS OR SMOOTH BORE PISTOLS UNDER CALIFORNIA LAW. Special permits may be obtained from the Department of Justice to possess machine guns and short barreled rifles or shotguns, but permits are normally issued only for law enforcement or for motion picture or television production. Unlawful possession of a short barreled rifle or shotgun, or a smooth bore pistol, or machine gun may be punished as a misdemeanor, or as a felony with a sentence of three years in state prison. A person convicted of misdemeanor machine gun possession may not own any firearm in California for ten years. California does not regulate possession of machine guns or cannons that are permanently unserviceable, however, there have been successful prosecutions for "constructive possession" where one person was alleged to have all the parts necessary to assemble a machine gun. California allows ownership of specific short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns and smoothbore pistols that have been classified as Curios and Relics by the ATF and are owned in accord with Federal law

Gunfighter01
02-24-2006, 3:54 PM
Be careful on the less than 16" barrels, i actually called DOJ firearms div on this very subject. The Agent told me its a very gray area concerning permant muzzle brakes. A rifle with a less than 16" barrel should actually be approved by DOJ before you do this, and he told me, you still have certain DA's in certain counties that wont buy it, they will press for actuall barrel length. Thats what i was told by an Agent, and for me, an inch and a half aint worth the hassles.

BigAL
02-24-2006, 4:00 PM
Be careful on the less than 16" barrels, i actually called DOJ firearms div on this very subject. The Agent told me its a very gray area concerning permant muzzle brakes. A rifle with a less than 16" barrel should actually be approved by DOJ before you do this, and he told me, you still have certain DA's in certain counties that wont buy it, they will press for actuall barrel length. Thats what i was told by an Agent, and for me, an inch and a half aint worth the hassles.


It has already been shown that the DOJ cannot be trusted to give accurate info over the phone.

akjunkie
04-02-2006, 5:25 AM
Well on the website is say's "This barrel is under the legal 16" minimum for semi-auto rifles and must be installed on registered full autos or legal short barrel rifles." If you live in the PRK you cannot have this slapped onto you lower...no ands', no if's, no but's. The PRK does not allow barrel lenghts of less than 16 inches. Trust me..I looked into it. It would be nice. Check out this site http://www.gunlaw.com/contraband.phtml Read #9 and #10

9. MACHINE GUNS, SHORT BARRELED RIFLES, SHORT BARRELED SHOTGUNS OR SMOOTH BORE PISTOLS UNDER FEDERAL LAW. Manufacture, sale and possession of these "gangster weapons" is regulated and taxed under the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934. NFA registration is also required for unserviceable machine guns, cannons, and some other war souvenirs. Mere possession of an unregistered NFA weapon may result in a prison sentence of up to ten years. No amnesty has been offered to permit voluntary registration of NFA weapons since 1968. Lawful dispositions of unregistered NFA weapons are abandonment or forfeiture to a government agency, but immunity from prosecution is not guaranteed. NFA restrictions do not apply to shotguns with barrels 18" or longer and an overall length of 26" or more, nor do NFA rules apply to rifles with barrels 16" or longer and an overall length of 26" or more.

10. MACHINE GUNS, SHORT BARRELED RIFLES, SHORT BARRELED SHOTGUNS OR SMOOTH BORE PISTOLS UNDER CALIFORNIA LAW. Special permits may be obtained from the Department of Justice to possess machine guns and short barreled rifles or shotguns, but permits are normally issued only for law enforcement or for motion picture or television production. Unlawful possession of a short barreled rifle or shotgun, or a smooth bore pistol, or machine gun may be punished as a misdemeanor, or as a felony with a sentence of three years in state prison. A person convicted of misdemeanor machine gun possession may not own any firearm in California for ten years. California does not regulate possession of machine guns or cannons that are permanently unserviceable, however, there have been successful prosecutions for "constructive possession" where one person was alleged to have all the parts necessary to assemble a machine gun. California allows ownership of specific short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns and smoothbore pistols that have been classified as Curios and Relics by the ATF and are owned in accord with Federal law

guess you didnt live in or were to Young to purchase an AW in Calif pre Y2K.

guess u also never seen one of these Legally Sold in Calif pre Y2K either...

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/pre-ban/bura2b11555.asp

11.5 barrel with a PERMANENTLY welded 5.5 inch Flash Hider.

also last year to buy an AW (1999) u could've bought a 9mm or 45acp semi-auto STEN carbine. the barrel was around 10inches and it was sold with a Welded PIPE (not a Flash Hider or God damn muzzle break, but a PIPE!!) to make it meet the minimum 16inches.

hope this helps,
akjunkie

ljg17
08-01-2007, 10:18 AM
The welded pipe being hollow it would seem to me could fall under suppressor definition under federal law.

11.5 barrel with a PERMANENTLY welded 5.5 inch Flash Hider.

also last year to buy an AW (1999) u could've bought a 9mm or 45acp semi-auto STEN carbine. the barrel was around 10inches and it was sold with a Welded PIPE (not a Flash Hider or God damn muzzle break, but a PIPE!!) to make it meet the minimum 16inches.

hope this helps,
akjunkie[/QUOTE]

BossHogg
08-01-2007, 12:15 PM
You can leagaly buy any size barrel/upper you want in california. Model one sells 7.5 inchers all day. It is your own responsibility to follow the law. If you own a rifle lower and have a barrel/pem affixed flash shorter than 16" you are breaking the law even if you do not put them together. And yes you can own a SBR leagaly in CA. You must first be a FFL. Then you must apply for your class 3 and sell a certain dollar amount of them a year. Not an easy task.

BossHogg
08-01-2007, 12:28 PM
prior to having it shipped to my house, I removed my 2 complete lowers and took them over to my girlfriends house (no constructive intent this way)

Smart Man

bwiese
08-01-2007, 12:41 PM
Quote removed at poster's request.


That's still cutting it way close to the edge. I think that could go either way in court, esp if your GF is not a gunnie.

I also will not order even *bare* 14.5" barrels, let alone uppers, and I recommend y'all do the same.

If you really want a 14.5"-->16" bbl, order the bbl with the perm affixed flash hider or muzzle device.

CrazyJeep
08-01-2007, 12:44 PM
That's still cutting it way close to the edge. I think that could go either way in court, esp if your GF is not a gunnie.

I also will not order even *bare* 14.5" barrels, let alone uppers, and I recommend y'all do the same.

If you really want a 14.5"-->16" bbl, order the bbl with the perm affixed flash hider or muzzle device.

Good to know, thanks.

ljg17
08-01-2007, 1:28 PM
I want to set up my 10/22 to use the super colibri ammo, initially I was thinking about the SSS 60 grain subsonic but the 1 in 9 barrel and other mods were adding up and then I read a review of the ammo from www.silencerresearch.com and it seems to have a lot of unburned powder residue, and it is not really all that quiet. (however using SSS with a Ciener kit in a 1 in 9 AR upper would be interesting)

So the issue with the super colibri is that they do not recommend it for rifles as the bullets may become lodged in the bore, well I saw this auction today on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/Ruger-10-22-RIFLE-1-2x28-tpi-11-5-THREADED-BARREL-NEW_W0QQitemZ190135852070QQihZ009QQcategoryZ31709Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
for the 11.5 " threaded barrel and thought that the thread pattern should work with a bushmaster CAR Flash suppressor, so can I order the barrel and perm affix the Flash Hider and be legal? Or is constructive possession still an issue before the barrel is mounted in the receiver?

ar15barrels
08-01-2007, 1:39 PM
That's still cutting it way close to the edge. I think that could go either way in court, esp if your GF is not a gunnie.

I also will not order even *bare* 14.5" barrels, let alone uppers, and I recommend y'all do the same.

If you really want a 14.5"-->16" bbl, order the bbl with the perm affixed flash hider or muzzle device.

I sell 14.5" barrels WITH your choice of permanently attached muzzle device already installed.

uzigalil
08-01-2007, 1:44 PM
And as a Randall Customer, His work is great.

PIRATE14
08-01-2007, 3:48 PM
Well any of the 58 DAs could drag you into court if they think they have a case...........;) Plus you'll have the FEDs to deal w/ as well.

So, you can't be too cautious w/ short barreled uppers, you can buy but make sure your intent is to stay w/in the laws....:)

arguy15
08-01-2007, 4:03 PM
If you had a AR Pistol it would be Okay to own a short barrel. The single shot AR Pistol is looking good.:chris:

ar15barrels
08-01-2007, 5:19 PM
If you had a AR Pistol it would be Okay to own a short barrel. The single shot AR Pistol is looking good.:chris:


Use the right tool for the job...
If you want a single shot pistol, just get a TC Contender or Encore.

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/g2Contender.php

psriley
08-01-2007, 5:28 PM
Not to thread-jack here, but where are the actual legal measuring points? Does the barrel extension count as part of the barrel, or only the portion of the barrel outside of upper receiver?

ar15barrels
08-01-2007, 5:39 PM
Not to thread-jack here, but where are the actual legal measuring points? Does the barrel extension count as part of the barrel, or only the portion of the barrel outside of upper receiver?

You measure from breech face to the end of any permanently attached muzzle devices, otherwise to the muzzle.

The barrel extension is NOT part of the length.

Here is where the bolt will be when locked into the extension:

http://ar15barrels.com/tech/ar15bolt-extension.gif