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todd2968
03-31-2010, 3:31 PM
This guy guy needs to be slapped up side the head, and it just gives ammo to the anti-gun nuts.
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/241528

Bobula
03-31-2010, 3:33 PM
Sounds like mall security. Didn't hear any mention of the mall having their own police force.......

Roadrunner
03-31-2010, 3:35 PM
That guy's a moron and needs to be a former security guard.

Paragun
03-31-2010, 3:47 PM
Well, I can say it worked. No one was hurt, and he got the guy. So everyone jumped because of a bang? The only problem I see is where did the bullet land?

"Quite frankly, that would have scared me," said Brooke Feazell of Roanoke.

Unlike this incident with UNARMED security.

July 22, 2007
In the Line of Duty: KMart Security Officer Shot, Killed by Shoplifter
Security guard killed at Ramona Kmart - San Diego Union Tribune
A security guard at a Ramona Kmart was shot dead while chasing a shoplifter into the parking lot today, authorities said.
The guard apparently confronted a shoplifter about 3 p.m., and a struggle ensued, said Sheriff's homicide Lt. Dennis Brugos.
The shoplifter pulled out a gun and shot the security guard in front of the Kmart's garden shop, Brugos said. He said customers took the gunman into custody and called authorities. The security guard was pronounced dead at the scene.
Ramona resident Aaron Abrahamsen, 13, witnessed the commotion. "I was just walking into the garden shop, looking for a friend, and I heard four loud shots that I thought were firecrackers," Abrahamsen said.
"They seemed to be near the front of the shop. Tons of employees came running in," shouting that someone had been shot, he said. A few minutes later, Abrahamsen said he walked outside and saw paramedics trying to revive a white man.
Deputies cordoned off the parking lot area at the store, including the Los Rancheros restaurant, on Main Street near Pala Street for more than three hours.
http://calsaga.typepad.com/calsaga/2007/07/in-the-line-of-.html

I was standing right at the front door during the incident over at the garden shop door. He was killed for small sh** from electronics. I knew him and attended his memorial. I wish he had a gun!

CSACANNONEER
03-31-2010, 3:52 PM
Security guards need to know their place! It's to observe and report. Intervention and detainment are a last resort. These guys are morons who were going to be police officers but were unable to spell academy. So, they couldn't look it up in a phone book and apply.

sytfu_RR
03-31-2010, 3:53 PM
That security guard used horrible judgment in his use of force. I'm not sure how their training is, but for me the class stressed that we could only use our firearms to defend life. The times I've worked armed at a retail establishment, I was told I was there to prevent robbery, NOT go after shoplifters. It's unfortunate that this security guard just keeps the ball rolling on the negative stereotype of security being idiots.

btw: Not all of us in the security field are idiots or wannabe cops. Many of the guys I work with are professional and know the limits of what we do. So yes I "know my place".:rolleyes:

Paragun
03-31-2010, 4:20 PM
Why do I think there should not be any problem with this?

I understand what could be taken from this article in these times, and how it can be used against gun rights. That sucks and shouldn't be any controversy, he fired a shot and stopped the thief. Everyone complains about higher prices, but this is just one time when someone got caught. What about the many others that didn't? Just like the stopping power of CCW's with or without a gun, no one knows who might have one. If everyone in San Diego might have a gun legally, who do you rob?

The only problem with the shot is, where did the bullet go? That should be it. Why is it excessive force when he didn't shoot anyone?

This story just shows how many gun virgins there are. I only see the 2nd amendment as written and by the founders thoughts, We have the right to bear arms, even if you want a howitzer in the front yard.

CSACANNONEER
03-31-2010, 4:35 PM
btw: Not all of us in the security field are idiots or wannabe cops. Many of the guys I work with are professional and know the limits of what we do. So yes I "know my place".:rolleyes:

So did I. I spent about 5 years as a rent-a-cop and met a lot of total wannabes. Of course, there were also a few profesionals security officers, retired people and other college students who I worked with.

gemini1
03-31-2010, 5:05 PM
Okay, am I missing something? The report says, "J.C. Penney security guard followed a shoplifting suspect to the mall parking lot and fired a single shot in an effort to stop him".
I would like to think that the guard prior to firing his weapon, may have shouted at the suspect to stop. No one said if the perp may have stop and faced the guard in a menacing way, which may have forced the guard to fire a warning shot?

Glock-matic
03-31-2010, 5:14 PM
Security guards need to know their place! It's to observe and report. Intervention and detainment are a last resort. These guys are morons who were going to be police officers but were unable to spell academy. So, they couldn't look it up in a phone book and apply.

Sounds like you got issues, glad you are working them out.

Glock-matic
03-31-2010, 5:17 PM
Okay, am I missing something? The report says, "J.C. Penney security guard followed a shoplifting suspect to the mall parking lot and fired a single shot in an effort to stop him".
I would like to think that the guard prior to firing his weapon, may have shouted at the suspect to stop. No one said if the perp may have stop and faced the guard in a menacing way, which may have forced the guard to fire a warning shot?

Still a lot is not in the article, it is possible he pulled out his pistol and had a ND. Who knows. But I would agree that using a gun to stop a shoplifter is poor form. He should use a 4-D cell maglight to convince him to stop like the rest of the old guard.

ElvenSoul
03-31-2010, 5:46 PM
Seems Virginia and California have the same Standards for Training. Total of 40 hours of Training. 14 Hours for Firearms. I've always thought it needed to be 48 Hours for Firearms myself. One day in the Classroom and One day at the Range is not enough in my book.

Sgt Raven
03-31-2010, 5:54 PM
Okay, am I missing something? The report says, "J.C. Penney security guard followed a shoplifting suspect to the mall parking lot and fired a single shot in an effort to stop him".
I would like to think that the guard prior to firing his weapon, may have shouted at the suspect to stop. No one said if the perp may have stop and faced the guard in a menacing way, which may have forced the guard to fire a warning shot?

You never, ever, ever, ever fire a warning shot. If deadly force is warranted, then you shoot to stop the threat! ;) Where did the warning shot land? You have your name on every round you cut loose.

CSACANNONEER
04-01-2010, 7:54 AM
Sounds like you got issues, glad you are working them out.

Did that one hit too close to home for you? Really, in the +5 years that I got paid to sit and study while playing rent-a-cop, I found that between 80% and 90% of those I met, who work in the field, fall into this catagory.

Fot
04-01-2010, 8:17 AM
I was faced with the same situation years ago–I was working for a smaller security organization, me were regularily rotated between 4 stations. A local Food City supermarket was designated Sector Alpha-Niner, the Jiffy Lube was Bravo-Lima-Fiver, the local $1 movie theater was Golf-16 and finally, the most coveted assignment, the local mall or Zebra-1.Back then, before the corporate sponsorship, our gear was severely limited due to out of pocket expenses. I was armed with a Glock17 (one of the first into the country, given to me by Gaston Glock personally in honor of my former black-ops experiences) and a Rem870P 14" bbl folder loaded with 000 magnums.On this particular fateful day my team was assigned to patrol Sector Zebra-1, the mall. It was an uneventful day, until the unthinkable happened…It was about 8:45PM, and the mall was closing and nearly empty. Me and my ’shadow’ were sweeping quadrant 069E, the mall arcade, a known hotspot for Asian Gangs and assorted thugs. The arcade was located at the far east end of the mall, next to the movie theater and the orange julius.I smelled trouble, and couldn’t spot any movement from the arcade, which was unusual due to the presence of a new Mortal Compact arcade game. Those Asians Gangs love Mortal Combat.I went to “condition red,” and discretely unholstered my Glock17 loaded with Black Talons. I motioned to my partner to sweep right to flank the arcade, but he was already in motion sensing the trouble in my facial expression. My partner drew his S&W 1006 and went prone behind a potted palm tree.I crept towards the arcade, when the power went out. It was an ambush! I could still see relatively well due to the full moon, shining through the building’s skylights, and years in a dark secret Russian prison center had honed my natural night vision to that of a tomcat.A perp popped up from behind the Orange Julius counter with a full auto Kalashnikov with a 75rd drum, and opened up in the direction of my partner, meanwhile two perps popped up from behind the skeeball machine with sawed off 12 gauges. Another two perps appeared on the upper level and brought down hell-fire on us from above. One had a Winchester Model 70 in .30-06 with a 10x scope and the other was laying down suppressive fire with a Mac10 variant. The perps were all sporting cheap russian NVGs.I dove under a metal bench, and lined my sights on the AK bandit. A double-tap to the chest, and a quick follow-up to the head brought him down like a sack of potatos. My partner had been hit in the leg by some buckshot but he kept fighting like a champ, he took out one of the shotgunners with a 10mm hollowpoint to the temple, while I started unloading into the glass partition that surrounded the upper level. When the sniper ran for cover I drew a bead on him, adjusted for distance, and dropped two into his abdomen. The Mac-man ran for it, at the sight of the bloody guts pouring out his partner’s stomach.I did a quick tactical reload, grabbed the 870P from the harness on my back, and did some rolls over to the movie theater and back flipped over the concession counter while unloading the 5 rounds of 000 into the skeeball machine. My partner was pinned down, I tossed the empty 870, and realized I couldn’t hit the remaining perp due to my the poor angle of attack. I had to act fast or my partner was done for. I leap over the counter again, and low crawled towards the arcade unseen. I crept behind the Mrs. PacMan game, and when I heard the perp reload, jumped up with my trusty K-Bar, and threw it into the perp’s arm, pinning him against the wall behind him.When the smoke cleared, we had three dead perps, and two very scared prisoners. My partner was slighting wounded but he would live to fight another dayl. The company goons came in fast by chopper, to cover up the situation. The remaining perps were flown to a company detention center, and we never found out what happened to them, or why they made such a vicious attack. My belief is that they were planning to hijack the coveted Mortal Combat game unit.The remaining customers and employees were paid off to cover their emotional distress and to keep their mouths shut. Later an unknown shadowy figure in an expensive black suit (obviously a high ranking company guy) came to me as I was reloading my Rem870 (in case of a second wave of attackers) and offered me the job opportunity of a lifetime…

I don’t know if I made the right decision that day. I will always fondly remember the days of mall security, the expressions on the thankful patrons you saved from certain molestation in the mall bathrooms. The look of pain in the drooling face of the shoplifter you just choke-holded to unconciousness.

paul0660
04-01-2010, 8:32 AM
We missed you, Gecko45.

welchy
04-01-2010, 8:38 AM
If I post in this thread will I get banned too?

welchy
04-01-2010, 8:38 AM
OHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! We are all banned!

dilligaffrn
04-01-2010, 9:12 AM
Must be April 1st. (BANNED)

The media seldom gets things right.

On the surface it looks like the rent-o-cop miss-used DF, but I do not know the FACTS so...

bigcalidave
04-01-2010, 10:02 AM
ROFL, I immediately thought of Gecko45 with this thread, thanks for posting that again fot!

pdq_wizzard
04-01-2010, 10:23 AM
I was faced with the same situation years ago–I was working for a smaller security organization, me were regularily rotated between 4 stations. A local Food City supermarket was designated Sector Alpha-Niner, the Jiffy Lube was Bravo-Lima-Fiver, the local $1 movie theater was Golf-16 and finally, the most coveted assignment, the local mall or Zebra-1.Back then, before the corporate sponsorship, our gear was severely limited due to out of pocket expenses. I was armed with a Glock17 (one of the first into the country, given to me by Gaston Glock personally in honor of my former black-ops experiences) and a Rem870P 14" bbl folder loaded with 000 magnums.On this particular fateful day my team was assigned to patrol Sector Zebra-1, the mall. It was an uneventful day, until the unthinkable happened…It was about 8:45PM, and the mall was closing and nearly empty. Me and my ’shadow’ were sweeping quadrant 069E, the mall arcade, a known hotspot for Asian Gangs and assorted thugs. The arcade was located at the far east end of the mall, next to the movie theater and the orange julius.I smelled trouble, and couldn’t spot any movement from the arcade, which was unusual due to the presence of a new Mortal Compact arcade game. Those Asians Gangs love Mortal Combat.I went to “condition red,” and discretely unholstered my Glock17 loaded with Black Talons. I motioned to my partner to sweep right to flank the arcade, but he was already in motion sensing the trouble in my facial expression. My partner drew his S&W 1006 and went prone behind a potted palm tree.I crept towards the arcade, when the power went out. It was an ambush! I could still see relatively well due to the full moon, shining through the building’s skylights, and years in a dark secret Russian prison center had honed my natural night vision to that of a tomcat.A perp popped up from behind the Orange Julius counter with a full auto Kalashnikov with a 75rd drum, and opened up in the direction of my partner, meanwhile two perps popped up from behind the skeeball machine with sawed off 12 gauges. Another two perps appeared on the upper level and brought down hell-fire on us from above. One had a Winchester Model 70 in .30-06 with a 10x scope and the other was laying down suppressive fire with a Mac10 variant. The perps were all sporting cheap russian NVGs.I dove under a metal bench, and lined my sights on the AK bandit. A double-tap to the chest, and a quick follow-up to the head brought him down like a sack of potatos. My partner had been hit in the leg by some buckshot but he kept fighting like a champ, he took out one of the shotgunners with a 10mm hollowpoint to the temple, while I started unloading into the glass partition that surrounded the upper level. When the sniper ran for cover I drew a bead on him, adjusted for distance, and dropped two into his abdomen. The Mac-man ran for it, at the sight of the bloody guts pouring out his partner’s stomach.I did a quick tactical reload, grabbed the 870P from the harness on my back, and did some rolls over to the movie theater and back flipped over the concession counter while unloading the 5 rounds of 000 into the skeeball machine. My partner was pinned down, I tossed the empty 870, and realized I couldn’t hit the remaining perp due to my the poor angle of attack. I had to act fast or my partner was done for. I leap over the counter again, and low crawled towards the arcade unseen. I crept behind the Mrs. PacMan game, and when I heard the perp reload, jumped up with my trusty K-Bar, and threw it into the perp’s arm, pinning him against the wall behind him.When the smoke cleared, we had three dead perps, and two very scared prisoners. My partner was slighting wounded but he would live to fight another dayl. The company goons came in fast by chopper, to cover up the situation. The remaining perps were flown to a company detention center, and we never found out what happened to them, or why they made such a vicious attack. My belief is that they were planning to hijack the coveted Mortal Combat game unit.The remaining customers and employees were paid off to cover their emotional distress and to keep their mouths shut. Later an unknown shadowy figure in an expensive black suit (obviously a high ranking company guy) came to me as I was reloading my Rem870 (in case of a second wave of attackers) and offered me the job opportunity of a lifetime…

I don’t know if I made the right decision that day. I will always fondly remember the days of mall security, the expressions on the thankful patrons you saved from certain molestation in the mall bathrooms. The look of pain in the drooling face of the shoplifter you just choke-holded to unconciousness.

:laugh::useless::rofl2:

Glock-matic
04-01-2010, 5:13 PM
Did that one hit too close to home for you? Really, in the +5 years that I got paid to sit and study while playing rent-a-cop, I found that between 80% and 90% of those I met, who work in the field, fall into this catagory.

Maybe its different in your experience, but Security is a natural for those that wish to be or those that have been in law enforcement. Yes, there are the Paul Blarts in this world, but most of the guards I've known were students or retired. I think a little more therapy, and you'll have that one licked/:batman:

B.D.Dubloon
04-01-2010, 5:42 PM
That security guard used horrible judgment in his use of force. I'm not sure how their training is, but for me the class stressed that we could only use our firearms to defend life. The times I've worked armed at a retail establishment, I was told I was there to prevent robbery, NOT go after shoplifters. It's unfortunate that this security guard just keeps the ball rolling on the negative stereotype of security being idiots.

btw: Not all of us in the security field are idiots or wannabe cops. Many of the guys I work with are professional and know the limits of what we do. So yes I "know my place".:rolleyes:

+1. It's hard being a guard:(

Fot
04-01-2010, 8:46 PM
:laugh::useless::rofl2:

Sorry the nature of my missions mean my identity must remain safe. I will share a picture of my trusty side arm.. retired of course.


http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i296/ssboatlover/8120Badass.jpg

cineski
04-02-2010, 7:58 AM
Criminal activity like this would actually slow down drastically if all criminals would get shot at.

RideIcon
04-02-2010, 11:22 AM
thats a good idea! load the top round with a blank, call it "the intimidator"

Aldemar
04-02-2010, 11:33 AM
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas

thrillhouse700
04-02-2010, 12:25 PM
Peanut Blart and Jelly!!!

BillCA
04-02-2010, 3:26 PM
Valley View Mall shoppers Sunday afternoon said a security guard who fired a gun to stop a suspected shoplifter Friday was too heavy-handed in his approach
Yup... I'd say that was a career-limiting move.
Unless the perpetrator did something to indicate he was armed and/or about to attack the guard.

What really gets me in this story is the way they break up a statement from a citizen so they can use part of it later in the story to sound like some "authority" was condemning the act...

"You shoot at somebody because they're shoplifting? Nobody's life is in danger," said Gene Goodman of Pearisburg.
A quote from a citizen...no attribution of any professional occupation. Then, there are two paragraphs quoting a police spokesman and referring to JC Penny managers not commenting before they add...
Goodman said the security guard in Friday's incident put bystanders in danger and should have given any findings to the police once Ware made it outside.

Security guards, especially mall guards, get the short end of the stick. If they strictly obey the rules perps get away with crimes and their companies hear complaints about effectiveness. If they get involved and anyone gets hurt, they're "dangerously untrained, reckless wanna-be cops".

Security guards need to know their place! It's to observe and report. Intervention and detainment are a last resort.
You mean "their place", like these nitwit "guards" who stood around and watched a 15 year old girl take a felony beating? I'm sure you'd feel exactly the same way if it was your daughter in the video.

YHZZdV3woM0

These guys are morons who were going to be police officers but were unable to spell academy. So, they couldn't look it up in a phone book and apply.
I knew a police officer in a bay area city during the 70's who used to say the same thing. His attitude towards any security personnel was to treat them as prime suspects in any crime reported in their area. He wasn't above verbally abusing and belittling them either. One night he sandbagged a guard leaving a retail site after midnight. When the guard's car stopped he asked the driver to step out, and in the process of trying to disarm the guard, he fumbled the guard's BHP. The gun discharged, killing the guard. The grand jury indicted him on 2nd degree homicide. After a year of delays, when his trial date came up he committed suicide.

So get some help with your hostility to security guards. Especially if you plan on being in the LE industry.

B Strong
04-02-2010, 5:26 PM
Security guards need to know their place! It's to observe and report. Intervention and detainment are a last resort. These guys are morons who were going to be police officers but were unable to spell academy. So, they couldn't look it up in a phone book and apply.

Bingo!

CSACANNONEER
04-02-2010, 6:41 PM
You mean "their place", like these nitwit "guards" who stood around and watched a 15 year old girl take a felony beating? I'm sure you'd feel exactly the same way if it was your daughter in the video.

YHZZdV3woM0




Yep, just like that. The guards were doing exactly what they were being paid to do. If they had done anything else, they could have lost their jobs. They were not being paid to protect ANY patron of that subway system. They were there to observe and report. The fact is that they are not peace officers. They were not hired to protect anyone or intervine in any altercation. They showed restraint and did their jobs as they had been trained and instructed to do.

That said, if I had been in their position, I would not have a job anymore and, I'd probably be doing time for beating on a few minors. I believe that one's duty as a human being should come before one's job. BTW, did you know that even LEOs are not employeed to protect an individual? If these had been LEOs, they would not have had a duty to protect the girl except for their duty to be decent human beings.

Glock-matic
04-02-2010, 7:06 PM
Yep, just like that. The guards were doing exactly what they were being paid to do. If they had done anything else, they could have lost their jobs. They were not being paid to protect ANY patron of that subway system. They were there to observe and report. The fact is that they are not peace officers. They were not hired to protect anyone or intervine in any altercation. They showed restraint and did their jobs as they had been trained and instructed to do.

That said, if I had been in their position, I would not have a job anymore and, I'd probably be doing time for beating on a few minors. I believe that one's duty as a human being should come before one's job. BTW, did you know that even LEOs are not employeed to protect an individual? If these had been LEOs, they would not have had a duty to protect the girl except for their duty to be decent human beings.

You think one of them would have used a cel to call 911 or something. Had they intervened, the DA would have gladly prosecuted them for violating the thugs right to beat 15YO girls.

AggregatVier
04-02-2010, 7:19 PM
If a Security Guard's job is not to protect, and court decisions have absolved police (peace) officers of the same, then who is there to protect us?

< Jeopardy theme plays in background >

Fot
04-02-2010, 7:22 PM
If a Security Guard's job is not to protect, and court decisions have absolved police (peace) officers of the same, then who is there to protect us?

< Jeopardy theme plays in background >

The men and women who manufacture those 185 grain hollow points :)

Seesm
04-02-2010, 9:33 PM
That poor girl in the video... I too would have no job after that night as I would have pounced on the kids doing the beating in about the first hit... The gang up factor just shows weakness... If your in a gang your a P*SSY and that is a fact!

sytfu_RR
04-02-2010, 10:16 PM
If I were those guards in the video I would have lost my job. I cannot believe they didn't at least pull the girl to safety. Unfortunate as it is, some guards have been fired for being too "active" some companies have policy in place that states if a guard does act they will be terminated. Where I work however we have no such policy as long as we're doing it to protect someone.

loopsb
04-02-2010, 10:50 PM
Obviously some people here are really confused between the roles of uniformed mall security and private companies loss prevention agents. :90:

CSACANNONEER
04-02-2010, 11:14 PM
If a Security Guard's job is not to protect, and court decisions have absolved police (peace) officers of the same, then who is there to protect us?

< Jeopardy theme plays in background >

Obama and the rest of his party??????

Obviously some people here are really confused between the roles of uniformed mall security and private companies loss prevention agents. :90:

Sorry, I was not aware that it's the role of a loss prevention agent to fire warning shots in an attempt to stop an unarmed shoplifter. Thanks for the edumacation Gecko.

intruder1_92tt
04-02-2010, 11:45 PM
I don't know where that train station is, but here in California, the guards could have used legal force to stop the attack and place the suspects under arrest. The law's requirements for a citizen's arrest are not all that different than those for law enforcement. A citizen simply cannot detain, or write citations. There are, of course, other restrictions, but any person could have stepped in and arrested those guys for assault.

As to the security guard at the mall, well, he's just an idiot. One of the first things they teach in the firearms classes for security is that you NEVER fire a warning shot. You also do not shoot a fleeing suspect, unless they are still creating an immediate threat of grave bodily harm or death to yourself or another person.

Of course, I'm lucky to be working for a security agency that not only supports LEGAL use of force and arrest, but encourages it. :)

BillCA
04-03-2010, 12:10 AM
Yep, just like that. The guards were doing exactly what they were being paid to do. If they had done anything else, they could have lost their jobs. They were not being paid to protect ANY patron of that subway system. They were there to observe and report. The fact is that they are not peace officers. They were not hired to protect anyone or intervine in any altercation. They showed restraint and did their jobs as they had been trained and instructed to do.
They showed stupidity and a lack of training, actually. Even guards who are supposed to merely "observe and report" can take a bit more active role. Letting the girl hide behind you and when her opponent attacks, you now defend yourself (and the victim) against the girl's attack. That can mean using enough force to take her into custody for assaulting you.
Unfortunately, the metro security officers in this video had a "union contract" which the metro agreed to and it almost prohibits them from taking any action except to defend themselves. And by the way...it's not a subway, it's a bus station in a tunnel. You should've listened.

That said, if I had been in their position, I would not have a job anymore and, I'd probably be doing time for beating on a few minors. I believe that one's duty as a human being should come before one's job. BTW, did you know that even LEOs are not employeed to protect an individual? If these had been LEOs, they would not have had a duty to protect the girl except for their duty to be decent human beings.+
Yup...

But did you know that you, as an individual person and employee of any security company can also be sued for an act of omission? That is, the parents of the victim may be able to sue the security company and guards for failing to act. It won't happen in this case with city and union rules limiting their options. But failing to act in a basic manner that a reasonable and prudent person would do can still get you sued.

One reason some cops hate security guards is that some get bored and call cops for all sorts of silly petty stuff. "Suspicious vehicles" topping the list. In the late 70's, a guard was watching a site of 8 new hi-value homes being built atop a hill. The road leading up used to be a popular necking spot for young couples. But he didn't know that and called in "suspicious cars" twice. Both times they were 100 yards or so away, blacked out. His company and the sheriffs told him "no more of this crap" and he was ordered to confine his reports to on-site issues only.

One October night, he watched a man breaking into a house about 120 yards away from his nearest perimeter point. Approximately 90 minutes later the man emerges carrying something and puts it into the trunk of his car before driving off. The guard went off duty at 4:30am and was awakened at 10am by police. Turns out the thief he saw entered the home, tied up the mother so she could watch him rape her 12 y/o daughter, then killed her. He carried the young girl off (later to be found dead elsewhere). When asked why he didn't report it, he pointed out he was "just following orders".

That didn't work out so well for him. The rest of the family - on a camping trip - returned and later sued the security company and guard. The company folded up after firing the guard. At 22 years of age, he found himself owing $2.5M of his future income to the family for failing to do what any reasonable and prudent person would do.

B Strong
04-03-2010, 8:56 AM
I'm the Chief of Security for a non-publicly traded corporation in California.

Security officers are in a no-win situation more often than not, but real problems start anytime the use of force becomes involved.

Take it from me - as an individual or company owner - if you as a security officer use force, or if a hired employee uses force on the job, you will be in civil court even if the use of force is determined to be lawful. I know of two companies on the S.F. peninsula - one that made an 8 figure settlement, and one that made a 7 figure settlement over use-of-force lawsuits against their hired officers. Neither use-of-force involved death...the company that made the seven figure settlement ended up closing it's doors, and the security company they had contracted with closed within 48 hours of the use-of-force incident.

The best thing any officer can do in the situations referenced is get communication started with the 911 operator, and give as accurate description as possible of the perps and any involved vehicles.

And unfortunately some of the stereotypes of security personnel is indeed true. Some guys are the worst type of wanna-be LEO, even some academy washouts and occasionally even a graduate, but every employee has the potential to turn your world upside down if they use force, even while that use is justified.

loopsb
04-03-2010, 1:11 PM
CSACANNONEER - while I agree that , not knowing any particular details from the situation, firing a warning shot sounds like a bad idea. My comment was directed towards those, including yourself several times I believe, who stated emphaticly that his/her job was "only to observe and report". THAT would get you fired if you were a loss prevention agent and paid to intervene and arrest. :seeya:

Shenaniguns
04-03-2010, 3:22 PM
Security guards need to know their place! It's to observe and report. Intervention and detainment are a last resort. These guys are morons who were going to be police officers but were unable to spell academy. So, they couldn't look it up in a phone book and apply.



WOW, that's a huge insulting assumption based on pure emotion... Are you a closet liberal? I'm a manager at a Security, Loss Prevention and Investigation company and can tell you that you should read up on what Security officers can or can't do before you make an *** out of yourself again.


Was this guy a moron? Yes
Has a cop done the same thing before? Yes

So being a Police Officer does not make you more intelligent or any less capable of being a moron. At least my guards have not shot someone for thinking that their handgun was a taser like the Bart cop.

CSACANNONEER
04-03-2010, 4:24 PM
WOW, that's a huge insulting assumption based on pure emotion... Are you a closet liberal? I'm a manager at a Security, Loss Prevention and Investigation company and can tell you that you should read up on what Security officers can or can't do before you make an *** out of yourself again.


Was this guy a moron? Yes
Has a cop done the same thing before? Yes

So being a Police Officer does not make you more intelligent or any less capable of being a moron. At least my guards have not shot someone for thinking that their handgun was a taser like the Bart cop.

Wow, I am VERY impressed that you are a Security MANAGER! I applaud you for not doing what so many rent-a-cop orginaztions do and trying to use military designations! Of course, you should have probably read the entire thread before ASSuming that I do not understand the field of private security. I have worked for contract companies, in house companies and done private in house work as well. I do completely understand what a security guard can and can not legally do, as well as, understanding that they can also be bound by their contract or employer's ideas of what is right or wrong. As far as my stereo typing goes, I'm sorry but, that has been my opinion of the majority of rent-a-cops that I have delt with. Again, I also have met college students and retirees and a few (very few) truely proffesional "security officers" who do the same work without the attitude and stupidity of the average rent-a-cop. You're also right about how not all LEOs are exceptionally intelligent. Although, I've met more than a few rent-a-cops who have not even been able to figure out how to apply for a LEO position. So, I'm guessing that all LEOs who figured out how to apply and then became LEOs are smarter than some of the wanna bees I've met.

Shenaniguns
04-03-2010, 4:31 PM
Wow, I am VERY impressed that you are a Security MANAGER! I applaud you for not doing what so many rent-a-cop orginaztions do and trying to use military designations! Of course, you should have probably read the entire thread before ASSuming that I do not understand the field of private security. I have worked for contract companies, in house companies and done private in house work as well. I do completely understand what a security guard can and can not legally do, as well as, understanding that they can also be bound by their contract or employer's ideas of what is right or wrong. As far as my stereo typing goes, I'm sorry but, that has been my opinion of the majority of rent-a-cops that I have delt with. Again, I also have met college students and retirees and a few (very few) truely proffesional "security officers" who do the same work without the attitude and stupidity of the average rent-a-cop. You're also right about how not all LEOs are exceptionally intelligent. Although, I've met more than a few rent-a-cops who have not even been able to figure out how to apply for a LEO position. So, I'm guessing that all LEOs who figured out how to apply and then became LEOs are smarter than some of the wanna bees I've met.






I'm glad you're impressed and that you seem to have barely made it as a security guard for 5 years, that's longer than I would have put up with doing it personally. For being in the industry for 5 years you sure do not seem very knowledgeable :cool:


And again, there are stupid people in every profession...

CSACANNONEER
04-03-2010, 4:39 PM
I'm glad you're impressed and that you seem to have barely made it as a security guard for 5 years, that's longer than I would have put up with doing it personally. For being in the industry for 5 years you sure do not seem very knowledgeable :cool:


And again, there are stupid people in every profession...

Yep, I "barely" made it as a secuity officer. But, that's OK. It helped finance my enginnering degree from Cal Poly. I also did another 7 years as the total security department for a private property (+400 acres just outside of Malibu) BTW, I was really trying to compliment you about your title. I find it pathertic that so many companies feel the need for their guards to have ranks. But, like you said, there are stupid people in every profession.

tonelar
04-03-2010, 6:21 PM
Okay, am I missing something? ...No one said if the perp may have stop and faced the guard in a menacing way, which may have forced the guard to fire a warning shot?

Warning Shots are BS

Glock-matic
04-03-2010, 6:53 PM
Yep, I "barely" made it as a secuity officer. But, that's OK. It helped finance my enginnering degree from Cal Poly. I also did another 7 years as the total security department for a private property (+400 acres just outside of Malibu) BTW, I was really trying to compliment you about your title. I find it pathertic that so many companies feel the need for their guards to have ranks. But, like you said, there are stupid people in every profession.


No offense, but your are coming off like a douche. I say this because I am assuming you didn't know.

BillCA
04-03-2010, 9:03 PM
It helped finance my enginnering degree from Cal Poly.
Congrats on getting your degree. Though I won't tell you about the negative experiences my late father had with graduates from Cal-Poly in the 80's. Suffice it to say that, as an aerospace professional, he thought they'd make great gardners.

I've met armed guards who were retirees and people who barely graduated high school and took their jobs seriously. Many knew how to talk to people and gain their cooperation without using force. But some people treat security guards with utter *ahem* contempt and can also find themselves at the wrong end of the law.

There are groups within the "security" world too. Loss Prevention in retail stores is much different than average rent-a-cops, as you put it. There are corporate security folks you don't want to mess with. The security guards at certain facilities have much more leeway to detain and take people into custody too, even though they are not officially California peace officers.

There's no profession so pure that one cannot find an idiot, dolt, jerk or nitwit as a member. The same applies to any group of people.

In the instance of the OP, I said that the use of a firearm was certainly going to be a career-limiting move. But I'm not going to paint every guard with a broad brush because of one or two dimwits.

Deja-Vu
04-03-2010, 10:57 PM
There was a guy on a motorcycle being chased buy the cops in front of my house, he crashed two houses down. I came out of my house to see what happening, the man on the bike ran by me then I see the cop he pulls out his gun and yell at the man to stop, well he didn't stop so the cop shots a round into the ground in front of my house, that still didn't stop the man from running. So the cop just rehosterd his gun and they got him later down the street.
I told my Mom the story she told her friend that works for the police the story and she came back and told my Mom that it was reported as a accidental discharge.
I guess the security guard just needs to learn how to fill out a report a little better like the big boys do.

SJgunguy24
04-03-2010, 11:04 PM
You never, ever, ever, ever fire a warning shot. If deadly force is warranted, then you shoot to stop the threat! ;) Where did the warning shot land? You have your name on every round you cut loose.
This is correct, the warning was issued when there was an order to stop. If you draw your firearm the shoplifter is now a threat and is now attemping to commit a felony.

197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.



Yup... I'd say that was a career-limiting move.
Unless the perpetrator did something to indicate he was armed and/or about to attack the guard.

What really gets me in this story is the way they break up a statement from a citizen so they can use part of it later in the story to sound like some "authority" was condemning the act...


A quote from a citizen...no attribution of any professional occupation. Then, there are two paragraphs quoting a police spokesman and referring to JC Penny managers not commenting before they add...


Security guards, especially mall guards, get the short end of the stick. If they strictly obey the rules perps get away with crimes and their companies hear complaints about effectiveness. If they get involved and anyone gets hurt, they're "dangerously untrained, reckless wanna-be cops".


You mean "their place", like these nitwit "guards" who stood around and watched a 15 year old girl take a felony beating? I'm sure you'd feel exactly the same way if it was your daughter in the video.

YHZZdV3woM0


I knew a police officer in a bay area city during the 70's who used to say the same thing. His attitude towards any security personnel was to treat them as prime suspects in any crime reported in their area. He wasn't above verbally abusing and belittling them either. One night he sandbagged a guard leaving a retail site after midnight. When the guard's car stopped he asked the driver to step out, and in the process of trying to disarm the guard, he fumbled the guard's BHP. The gun discharged, killing the guard. The grand jury indicted him on 2nd degree homicide. After a year of delays, when his trial date came up he committed suicide.

So get some help with your hostility to security guards. Especially if you plan on being in the LE industry.

I'm not going to poke or prod anybody here. I know those security guys are in a fu*ked spot there. You can only do so much before your hung out to dry by any company. Now as a private citizen, if I seen an as* whuppin like that happening in front of me. I would've done something, if I was legally carrying, there might have been a body laying there. See my reply up top. A felonius assualt can be stopped with force, you will go through the ringer, and maybe sued in civil court, but sometimes the right thing isn't the cheapest thing to do.

beyaaah
04-03-2010, 11:26 PM
Read a related security gaurd story over on CALCCW.COM about a guard drawing down and proning out some kids for being rowdy. Good thing they didn't make any "furtive" movements :eek:

http://www.calccw.com/Forums/sams-saloon/14163-gun-pointed-my-16-yo-son.html

packnrat
04-04-2010, 9:40 AM
mall "cops" are just people like us. NOT leo's at all, the guy discharged a weapon in public, with No reguard for others. were did the bullet go?? a car? wall? tree? person? uknown? :eek:

now for on the fence. :confused:

he should be good to go for shooting a fleeing suspect, as should anybody. :)

as he has this job of security he should have a radio and a video camcorder on him...NOT a gun. video the guy going away, and turn it over to the real leo's. :cool2:

protecting life is a good use of deadly force, taking a blender...not so.

as the late great number 5 once said....need input.

:TFH:

.

Mike61982
04-04-2010, 1:24 PM
Well First off why are you shotting an unarmed suspect that is fleeing? Second, where is his common sense, you don't open firearm unless it's warranted. The guard should be charged with fireing a gun in public. and being reckless with a firearm. Thats just my 2 cents....

Meplat
04-04-2010, 2:03 PM
We often jump to the most likely assumption, to our later undoing when the facts are known. In this case the obvious assumption is that there are damn few places one could point ones gun in that environment that would be safe, other than straight up. He may have actually found a safe option.



Why do I think there should not be any problem with this?

I understand what could be taken from this article in these times, and how it can be used against gun rights. That sucks and shouldn't be any controversy, he fired a shot and stopped the thief. Everyone complains about higher prices, but this is just one time when someone got caught. What about the many others that didn't? Just like the stopping power of CCW's with or without a gun, no one knows who might have one. If everyone in San Diego might have a gun legally, who do you rob?

The only problem with the shot is, where did the bullet go? That should be it. Why is it excessive force when he didn't shoot anyone?

This story just shows how many gun virgins there are. I only see the 2nd amendment as written and by the founders thoughts, We have the right to bear arms, even if you want a howitzer in the front yard.

Meplat
04-04-2010, 2:18 PM
I was faced with the same situation years ago–I was working for a smaller security organization, me were regularily rotated between 4 stations. A local Food City supermarket was designated Sector Alpha-Niner, the Jiffy Lube was Bravo-Lima-Fiver,

You had to ruin it by using "Fiver".:( "There is no "Fiver".

Meplat
04-04-2010, 3:14 PM
BTW, did you know that even LEOs are not employeed to protect an individual? If these had been LEOs, they would not have had a duty to protect the girl except for their duty to be decent human beings.

The difference is if LEOs intervene and screw it up they get a pass in most cases.

The real IQ test here is:

Do you want a job with all the head aces of LE and none of the perks or protections?

Meplat
04-04-2010, 3:17 PM
Got a mirror?


If a Security Guard's job is not to protect, and court decisions have absolved police (peace) officers of the same, then who is there to protect us?

< Jeopardy theme plays in background >

Meplat
04-04-2010, 3:27 PM
There was nothing in the article about a "WARNING" shot just mentioned that a shot was fired. character assassination is practiced daily by our media, simply by leaving things out.


I don't know where that train station is, but here in California, the guards could have used legal force to stop the attack and place the suspects under arrest. The law's requirements for a citizen's arrest are not all that different than those for law enforcement. A citizen simply cannot detain, or write citations. There are, of course, other restrictions, but any person could have stepped in and arrested those guys for assault.

As to the security guard at the mall, well, he's just an idiot. One of the first things they teach in the firearms classes for security is that you NEVER fire a warning shot. You also do not shoot a fleeing suspect, unless they are still creating an immediate threat of grave bodily harm or death to yourself or another person.

Of course, I'm lucky to be working for a security agency that not only supports LEGAL use of force and arrest, but encourages it. :)

Meplat
04-04-2010, 4:08 PM
Calling it an AD just says: "I'm not just stupid, I'm dangerous."


There was a guy on a motorcycle being chased buy the cops in front of my house, he crashed two houses down. I came out of my house to see what happening, the man on the bike ran by me then I see the cop he pulls out his gun and yell at the man to stop, well he didn't stop so the cop shots a round into the ground in front of my house, that still didn't stop the man from running. So the cop just rehosterd his gun and they got him later down the street.
I told my Mom the story she told her friend that works for the police the story and she came back and told my Mom that it was reported as a accidental discharge.
I guess the security guard just needs to learn how to fill out a report a little better like the big boys do.

Meplat
04-04-2010, 4:15 PM
mall "cops" are just people like us. NOT leo's at all, the guy discharged a weapon in public, with No reguard for others. :eek:
:TFH:
.

How do you know that? Do you pick up info the rest of us don't have on that tin foil hat?

intruder1_92tt
04-05-2010, 6:03 AM
There was nothing in the article about a "WARNING" shot just mentioned that a shot was fired. character assassination is practiced daily by our media, simply by leaving things out.

That is true, however, unless the suspect was still reported as running away from the security guard. You simply cannot shoot a fleeing suspect that is not creating a threat to others.


I'm the Chief of Security for a non-publicly traded corporation in California.

Security officers are in a no-win situation more often than not, but real problems start anytime the use of force becomes involved.

Take it from me - as an individual or company owner - if you as a security officer use force, or if a hired employee uses force on the job, you will be in civil court even if the use of force is determined to be lawful. I know of two companies on the S.F. peninsula - one that made an 8 figure settlement, and one that made a 7 figure settlement over use-of-force lawsuits against their hired officers. Neither use-of-force involved death...the company that made the seven figure settlement ended up closing it's doors, and the security company they had contracted with closed within 48 hours of the use-of-force incident.

The best thing any officer can do in the situations referenced is get communication started with the 911 operator, and give as accurate description as possible of the perps and any involved vehicles.

And unfortunately some of the stereotypes of security personnel is indeed true. Some guys are the worst type of wanna-be LEO, even some academy washouts and occasionally even a graduate, but every employee has the potential to turn your world upside down if they use force, even while that use is justified.

That's odd, because we usually have multiple use of force incidents each night, and we have never been successfully sued over any of them.

bubbagump
04-05-2010, 10:16 AM
"Roanoke police spokeswoman Aisha Johnson said a J.C. Penney security guard followed a shoplifting suspect to the mall parking lot and fired a single shot in an effort to stop him"

"Uniformed mall security guards were not carrying guns Sunday"

Paragun
04-05-2010, 10:24 AM
This just shows how twisted and perverted the laws are. Whatever happened to the term I hear in these forums? Thinning out the herd was it?

Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't! We all would like less crime, but how many are afraid to lose the "job" or "get sued". So the guy was caught, so a shot was fired, sometimes it takes a lot to stop the crime.

BillCA
04-06-2010, 1:12 PM
So the guy was caught, so a shot was fired, sometimes it takes a lot to stop the crime.
Irrelevant.

The issue is whether the use of deadly force is appropriate over a misdemeanor crime. In almost all states, it is rare that lethal force can be used to stop a misdemeanor - such as shoplifting.

Even if this was "the old west", firing a shot to stop a thief from stealing an apple or a pair of socks would have been seen as excessive.

In addition, the perp was fleeing. Flight + misdemeanor crime ≠ a threat to life. No life threatening situation means that deadly force is inappropriate and illegal.