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maxicon
02-12-2006, 11:16 PM
OK, all the goodies came in over the last week, after a bit of sweating over the upper delivery, and I got this puppy together this weekend. Haven't taken it out yet, but a range report should follow soon.

http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-1a.jpg

It's a bit of an odd beast - lots of discount stuff here, which is how I swing, and since I'm a bit broke right now, I did a little creative assembly to get it set up.

Lower: Fulton FAR-15
Upper: DPMS CMP22LR A2 upper, 20" SS bull barrel
LPK: RRA
Handguards: First Samco M44L
Grip: ZM pistol grip (1911 angle)
Buttstock: 6 pos clone stock with First Samco stock saddle
Optic: Fake Aimpoint RDS

Most of it came from the ar15.com equipment exchange except the lower and pistol grip, which are from calguns.

I got the upper used on ar15.com with 4 mags. It's not on DPMS' web site, and appears to be a special they made for cheaper than dirt. It's similar to their DCM upper (http://www.dpmsinc.com/10Browse.asp?catID=1351), except it comes with standard rifle handguards that aren't free-floated and doesn't appear to have a NM rear sight.

The LPK is supposed to be RRA, but the trigger's not nearly as nice as my other RRA LPK or my JT Distributing kit. I haven't looked closely yet, but it cams up a bit on the trigger pull, so I'll have to fiddle with that when I get a chance.

This is my first A2 upper, and I don't have any red dot mounts for one, only an ARMS #02 for the top of the carry handle, and they're too high to co-witness. I didn't want to pony up for a decent gooseneck right now or buy a cheap clone, so I pulled the standard handguards and put on the M44L handguards I've had kicking around for a bit. Lots of folks don't consider them sturdy enough for optics mounts, but I'm thinking they'll hold up well on a .22 range gun. This'll be a decent test for them in any case.

The fake Aimpoint has been a pretty good one so far, and the cantilever mount gives a nice center co-witness with the iron sights. I'll know better after I get it sighted in, but I've got high hopes for it.

I put the 6 pos stock on it because my son likes a shorter LOP than an A2 stock gives, and the stock saddle gives a much nicer cheekweld compared to the regular adjustable stock. I got a stock like it last year that was solid and tight, but this one is a bit loose and rattly.

It's pretty muzzle heavy, like any 20" bull barrel, and the whole getup weighs 9 lb 4 oz with an unloaded mag.

So far, I'm pretty pleased with how it's turned out, even it it looks a little "tactical" for a .22. I'd rather have the flattop M4 version, but this was pretty cheap, and I'm looking forward to checking it out.

Here are some pics of the bolt, which is blow-back operated. The ejector is part of the mag. I've fun a few snap caps through it, and it doesn't like them a bit, so I'll have to get to the range to see if it's going to fly.

http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22_bolt-1a.jpg

http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22_bolt-2a.jpg

max

EBWhite
02-12-2006, 11:54 PM
SWEET. love those cheap .22's

Nice evil pistol grip :-)

what did it cost you minus the lower?

Erik

Stanze
02-13-2006, 12:34 AM
Very nice! I bet it has zero kick!:cool:

SirMikeAlot
02-13-2006, 6:48 AM
Very Nice. Me likes. :D

xenophobe
02-13-2006, 7:11 AM
This is what I've been talking about... detachable magazine is fine with this build!

maxicon
02-13-2006, 7:56 AM
Hmm... Cost... Let me dig thru the archives.

LPK - $60
Pistol grip - $20?
Handguards - $75
Stock and saddle - $77
Red dot and mount - $75
Upper and 4 mags - $340 w/ shipping

All told, it ran about $650, minus the lower. That could have bought a 10/22, a CZ 452, and about 5k rounds of ammo!

It would have been fine without the handguards and sight, but I like red dots these days, and I already had that and the grip sitting around. Without that stuff, it would have been $458 to build the basic lower and slap on the upper.

I've got BRD (Black Rifle Disease). The doctor says I might get better, but I'll never get well...

max

maxicon
02-23-2006, 10:11 PM
Well, I took it out a few times this weekend. First time was just a function check and put a hundred or so rounds through it for fun with my son, and it worked fine - no problems. It was set up just as in the picture above.

Next time was to check accuracy with different ammo. I wanted to try it in 3 different setups:

- Iron sights - A2 style rear with the large and small apertures. I only used the small one.
- Aimpoint RDS 1x30 clone on a cantilever mount attached to the M44L handguard rails.
- Leupold VX1 4-12x40 in Leupold QRW low rings, mounted on an ARMS #02 carry handle mount. The scope was left on 12x.

Most of the shooting was 25 yards - the longest distance at the indoor range. First, I sighted in the iron sights, then the RDS clone, and the Leupold. I'm not the best rifle shooter around, and I need a good magnified scope to get decent groups, so that's the Leupold's job.

Once the clone was sighted in, the dot was right on top of the iron sight post, as it should be for an absolute co-witness. It did make the field of view cluttered, but that would have been better with the big aperture. I could also sight in above the rear site just fine, which helped a lot.

The highest brightness setting on the clone is incredibly bright indoors - even glaring - so I used the lowest one, which was still pretty bright. It's not the roundest dot I've seen, either, and the dot obscures the red and black center of the targets below at 25 yards, but it was quick and easy to use.

Now, the trigger on this lower sucks. It's stiff and uneven, and I need to fix it. I had to concentrate to keep the groups small, or I got a lot of side-to-side play from the trigger pull.

All groups are 10 rounds, shot from a rest on my range bag. For plinking, I used CCI Stingers, Federal Champions, and Zappers. For the accuracy tests, I used my favorite - SK Plus target ammo from outdoormarksman - http://www.outdoormarksman.com/product_info.php?cPath=65_2_54&products_id=1313. It's great stuff, and shoots as well as ammo costing a lot more. I figure I shot around 250 rounds total.

I had a few problems, but nothing major. The biggest one was that the hammer would sometimes follow the bolt, putting a little mark on the primer but not firing. It may have something to do with the crappy trigger, but I need to dig in a bit. I also had one failure to extract, which I pulled out with my fingernail.

The mags are pretty tight, and the metal inserts appear to be parkerized. They're a bit rough on the inside, and sometimes rounds would stick down in the mag, preventing me from loading more. Pushing the top round up and down a few times would usually loosen it up. On these mags, the ejector's part of the mag, and I was worried about a bit of looseness, but they worked fine.

Overall, it's been very good. If I bought a new one, I'd get the M4 style, with a flattop and a lighter barrel. The M44L handguards are very comfortable, if fat, with the rubber covers on the rails, and the collapsible stock with the cheekrest on it works great for this kind of shooting.

Here's a pic with the Leupold mounted.
http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-Leup12-1a.jpg

Here are some groups:

My first accuracy group - this was when I noticed how much the trigger was messing with me. 25 yards, SK Plus, Leupold scope:
http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-25yd_SK_Leup12-1a.jpg

I shot the same group again with a bit more care and got this (damn that flyer!):
http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-25yd_SK_Leup12-2a.jpg

Same group with Stingers:
http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-25yd_Stinger_Leup12-1a.jpg

(continued)

maxicon
02-23-2006, 10:12 PM
And with Zappers:
http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-25yd_Zapper_Leup12-1a.jpg

I pulled the target in to 10 yards - the group dropped about 2.25":
http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-10yd_SK_Leup12-1a.jpg

I took off the Leupold and mounted up the Aimpoint clone:
http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-25yd_SK_clone-1a.jpg

And took off the clone and used the iron sights:
http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-25yd_SK_iron-1a.jpg

After this, I remounted both the clone and the Leupold a couple of times and reshot the groups. There was very little zero shift from this, but that's harder to check well at 25 yards.

I'm pretty pleased, overall. I'll need to take it out to 50 yards at the outdoor range and see how it does, but so far, I'm pretty happy.

max

maxicon
02-23-2006, 10:32 PM
And, finally, some mag info, for those of you interested in them.

The mag case is a molded block of really hard plastic - it feels like a cross between Delrin and Bakelite. The mag itself is parkerized metal that fits into the block. There's a pin in the block that positions the mag insert, but it's a pretty tight fit in there even without it. There's a lot more wiggle of the mag in the mag well than there is the mag in the mag block.

The halves of the block are screwed together, but one of the lips is pinned so you can't get the halves apart. I tried driving the pin through, but there's not enough room, and it cracked one of the mag halves, so I cut it off with a Dremel. I'll drill out the rest if I need to open them.

On the last pic, there's a round pin that acts as the mag baseplate. When assembled, it's held in place by the mag block, but when you take it apart, nothing's holding it in. Mine's tight and needs to be pushed out, but some people say they'll fly out in theirs.

I looked at the possibility of making just the insert a removable mag, to help the .22-only legality, but it doesn't look like it would be too easy to do.

The assembled mag - you can see the ejector sticking up at the top.
http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-mag-1a.jpg

The mag split in half:
http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-mag-2a.jpg

The mag insert and one block half:
http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-mag-3a.jpg

And the mag in parts:
http://www.maxicon.com/guns/ar/DPMS_22-mag-4a.jpg

xenophobe
02-24-2006, 12:15 AM
I'll have a letter available shortly (I hope) from the DOJ concerning builds like this. I'll provide you with a copy if it says everything is fine and dandy...

EBWhite
03-10-2006, 11:43 AM
i went to cheaperthandirt.com and they wont ship these to CA. what a bunch of losers...

that magazine on the inside of the plastic box, is that a ruger mag???

Tyler
03-10-2006, 12:07 PM
i went to cheaperthandirt.com and they wont ship these to CA. what a bunch of losers...

that magazine on the inside of the plastic box, is that a ruger mag???

You think that is bad? Cheaperthandirt won't even send us air soft guns! http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/12649-13786-1802.html I have ordered things from them in the past, but i think i am done with that site.

thmpr
03-10-2006, 1:20 PM
I'll have a letter available shortly (I hope) from the DOJ concerning builds like this. I'll provide you with a copy if it says everything is fine and dandy...


Xeno,
Please post. I had several conversations with DOJ about this type of build and they stated that it is illegal and considered an AW due to the Lower assembly is readily and easily be converted back to a centerfire rifle.. A letter speaks louder than words! They have been twisting the law in so many forms that will not hold up in court: i.e. Fixed mag requirement.

Regards,
Thumper

thmpr
03-10-2006, 1:33 PM
Another thing I wanted to point out is how can have an assault weapon if the lower we are using with a fixed mag is not considered an AW because it is not either a Cat 1, 2 or 3. And based on the fixed mag definition in the AW guidelines, the fixed mag conversion kit meets that requirement to the "T"!!!!

maxicon
03-10-2006, 2:42 PM
i went to cheaperthandirt.com and they wont ship these to CA. what a bunch of losers...

that magazine on the inside of the plastic box, is that a ruger mag???

I ordered some airsoft stuff from CTD some time back, and have bought ammo, bayonets, and more. They may have changed policies since then, and that would be a good reason not to shop there any more.

The mag insert's not like anything I've seen before. It doesn't actually have a baseplate - just that round stainless rod, which is a friction fit inside the mag body. The plastic block keeps it from coming out when the whole thing's assembled. Some folks at arfcom say theirs will go flying if they're not careful taking it apart, but mine needs to be pushed out.

You can also see that it doesn't have a mag catch hole anywhere, just the tab with a hole that fits over a pin in the plastic block. The mag catch is part of the plastic block.

Also, I'm not sure of any other design that has the ejector built into the mag, but there may be others.

This is what the DPMS FAQ says about the mag:
"Our .22LR rifle uses the original ColtŪ .22LR magazines and our own magazines, which are based on the ColtŪ magazines."

It's also used in a Horner conversion according to Midway, which may be the same upper with a different brand name...

max

phobos512
03-10-2006, 6:39 PM
I ordered some airsoft stuff from CTD some time back, and have bought ammo, bayonets, and more. They may have changed policies since then, and that would be a good reason not to shop there any more.

They have changed quite a bit. No Airsoft toys, no pistol grips, no .50BMG ammo, just to name a few.

I was told by one of their support people that they had been threatened by CalDOJ. I don't know if I believe it though.

blacklisted
03-10-2006, 8:34 PM
They probably think that they were threatened by the DoJ, but in reality they are probably too stupid to understand the law.

BigMac
03-11-2006, 5:39 AM
If you read through the assault weapons guide it says that an AR15 is an assault weapon reguardless of caliber. I'd like to see that letter.

If they say it's OK then more power to you.

Tyler
03-11-2006, 8:33 AM
The whole point is that none of us really have AR15s yet, not until they are put on the list that is.

laabstract
03-11-2006, 1:48 PM
You think that is bad? Cheaperthandirt won't even send us air soft guns! http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/12649-13786-1802.html I have ordered things from them in the past, but i think i am done with that site.

Yea they recently changed so they wont ship uppers to cali :mad: also they changed there prices on shipping they wanted 20 bucks to **** a bayonet cleaning patches and a handgaurd rail. was only 1.2 pounds.
Sportsmansguide.com has alot of neat stuff but wont ship to cali either :mad:

Its a dumb move on there part just lost a huge chunk of the market here in the states.

grammaton76
03-11-2006, 11:57 PM
Yea they recently changed so they wont ship uppers to cali :mad: also they changed there prices on shipping they wanted 20 bucks to **** a bayonet cleaning patches and a handgaurd rail. was only 1.2 pounds.
Sportsmansguide.com has alot of neat stuff but wont ship to cali either :mad:

Personally, I have stopped buying anything from CTD or Sportsmansguide. If they're going to refuse to send me one or two completely non-restricted products, they can lose my business on ALL OTHER legal products they're willing to send.

I also do my best to ensure none of my friends shop with either store, as well. :)

BigMac
03-12-2006, 8:57 AM
OK I just looked up the specific page and line of the catagory 2 assault weapon. AR AK...

On page 56 of the CA assault weapons guide is states:

"Category 2 assault weapons may be of any caliber, including .22 caliber rimfire."

Tread carefully.

grammaton76
03-12-2006, 11:34 AM
OK I just looked up the specific page and line of the catagory 2 assault weapon. AR AK...

On page 56 of the CA assault weapons guide is states:

"Category 2 assault weapons may be of any caliber, including .22 caliber rimfire."

Tread carefully.

Right... that basically just means "don't make the mistake of thinking you can have a listed Bushmaster if it's 22LR"

blacklisted
03-22-2006, 7:45 PM
Xenophobe, did you get that letter (not that it's necessary)?

10K2HVN
03-22-2006, 9:51 PM
Yeah, I was curious about that .22 caliber thing, too.

I was just at Tuner's Outdoorsman and saw this Walther's G22 rifle. That thing is totally "assault rifle" with that thumbhole stock + detachable magazine, by California standards!

http://www.turners.com/engage/displayad2006.php?img=../siteimages/spring2006/page19.gif&id=19

http://www.carl-walther.de/englisch/defense/defense-100.html

grammaton76
03-23-2006, 12:48 AM
Yeah, I was curious about that .22 caliber thing, too.

I was just at Tuner's Outdoorsman and saw this Walther's G22 rifle. That thing is totally "assault rifle" with that thumbhole stock + detachable magazine, by California standards!

http://www.turners.com/engage/displayad2006.php?img=../siteimages/spring2006/page19.gif&id=19

http://www.carl-walther.de/englisch/defense/defense-100.html

This is why I specifically mention the Walther G22 in the statement I take the the range with my 22LR drop-mag AR. That and the Armscorp AK22.

The assault weapon 22LR stuff applies to pistols, not to rifles. Well, or named receivers in 22LR of course.

marklbucla
04-22-2006, 9:03 PM
Any word on that letter?

Charliegone
04-22-2006, 9:27 PM
Xeno,
Please post. I had several conversations with DOJ about this type of build and they stated that it is illegal and considered an AW due to the Lower assembly is readily and easily be converted back to a centerfire rifle.. A letter speaks louder than words! They have been twisting the law in so many forms that will not hold up in court: i.e. Fixed mag requirement.

Regards,
Thumper

"Conversations" with the doj are not really valid. The guy or girl you might be talking to on the other side of the phone, email, whatever probably doesn't know what they are talking about...lets just look at what the AW law says.

"A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following"

now...lets look at the letters.

http://calgunlaws.com/Docs/ASSAULT%20WEAPONS/Articles/0120133539%20AW%20DOJ%20LTRS.pdf

Basically they say in the letters that as long as it does not have aw features it is OK. so...since the above sb23 quote applies to these rifles if it is turned into a .22 lr rifle it should not be considered an AW even with the pistol grip. If it is .22 lr it is .22lr! Considering we live in a rather anti-gun state though, it would be risky, but just thinking about the DA going to court and saying...well according to California law and our judgement:rolleyes: these weapons are AW's even in .22lr...the defense says...well....sb23 says A semiautomatic CENTERFIRE rifle....and goes on how Harrot has precendent...who do you think will win? Isn't it kind of contradictory to say its illegal even if its NOT a class I or II AW, when the law specifically says CENTERFIRE rifle and not rimfire?:confused: Gosh Cali laws are so f-n stupid...

marklbucla
04-22-2006, 10:09 PM
I'd be less cautious if my Lower were stamped .22LR. That way, it's harder to argue that it's really a centerfire carbine that happens to have a .22LR upper on it.

mr2.0
09-26-2007, 9:25 PM
Pics people pics...

marklbucla
09-26-2007, 9:37 PM
Pics people pics...

http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/3032/p3210423acy0.jpg

Stag- 6.8 lower with a DPMS .22LR Post Ban M4 upper