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markw
03-30-2010, 9:57 PM
Ok, I usually point this out in other threads, but to keep it short, and make it searchable, here it is. I enjoyed the non-resident card at various duty stations for 20 years. Now I'm seeing a ton of posts telling military members they must register handguns within 60 days. First this bothers me, since they're not residents. Second, if a junior enlisted gets orders out here, unless he reads the PC they'll cough up $19/per and if they have a few handguns that could add up. Most of those guys are strapped for cash as it is.

So, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not, as I can read. :)

The 60 day requirement stems from 12072(f)(2) (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12072.html)

12072(f)(2) (A) On or after January 1, 1998, within 60 days of bringing a
handgun into this state, a personal handgun importer shall do one of
the following:

It goes on to say register it, sell it, turn it in.

The key here is "Personal Handgun Importer" which is defined by 12001(n) (http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12001.html)

12001(n) As used in this chapter, a "personal handgun importer" means
an individual who meets all of the following criteria:

(n) lists 13 items _ALL_ of which have to be met to be a personal handgun importer.

The item of concern for active duty non-residents is 12001(n)(6)

(6) He or she moves into this state on or after January 1, 1998, as a resident of this state.

As most military know you can fill out the non-resident form at the DMV and not have to pay VLF on your vehicle. Yeah, that 2009 BMW costs $46/year for tags. :) That's not the only thing California exempts you from.

12001(o)(2) says:
(o) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (n):
(2) In the case of members of the Armed Forces of the United
States, residency shall be deemed to be established when he or she
was discharged from active service in this state.

Now, like I said, correct me if I'm wrong.

Active duty military who are not residents of the state of California do not meet the requirements of 12001(n) as they do not meet the 12001(n)(6), and are actually specifically excluded by 12001(o)(2).

The requirement to fill out form AB991 (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf) _ONLY_ applies to personal handgun importers. Since 12001 specifically excludes active duty military from being personal handgun importers, the PC 12072(f)(2) does not apply. Therefore, they are not required to register handguns within 60 days.

Thoughts?? :) If you read the form it even has spots for using a military ID, kind of like an underground regulation. "It's on the form, it must be law, it must apply to the military."

As I pointed out in the other thread, we all know the DOJ wouldn't put up false information.

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf

racky
03-30-2010, 10:20 PM
so what you're saying is.... the handguns that got lost during my "tragic boating accident" didn't have be registered?

markw
03-30-2010, 10:30 PM
I'm just pointing out what the PC says vs what everyone assumes. :) You ever go down to personal without knowing what you were talking about, or did you go down with regs to back you up?

Decoligny
03-31-2010, 8:07 AM
Absolutely correct. Active Duty Military who are stationed in CA, who were NOT CA residents when they joined the Military, are indeed exempt from having to register handguns.

Call_me_Tom
03-31-2010, 9:29 AM
Absolutely correct. Active Duty Military who are stationed in CA, who were NOT CA residents when they joined the Military, are indeed exempt from having to register handguns.
Yes, this is true BUT if a military members command directs that he register their weapons they have too or they are in violation of disobeying a direct and lawful order under the UCMJ.

yelohamr
03-31-2010, 9:42 AM
I had to register mine on base but not with the state.

Noonanda
03-31-2010, 9:45 AM
Yes, this is true BUT if a military members command directs that he register their weapons they have too or they are in violation of disobeying a direct and lawful order under the UCMJ.

Registering on base, or registering out in town. Yes they can make you register it on base, that is a military/base requirement, but they cannot order you to register them with the state, that is a civil matter and as an active duty military member as previously stated you are excempt from the state requirement

markw
03-31-2010, 9:58 AM
Yes, this is true BUT if a military members command directs that he register their weapons they have too or they are in violation of disobeying a direct and lawful order under the UCMJ.

What command is directing members to register weapons with the state? You have to let the base know if you have it in base housing, and if your base housing is on base they want you to keep them at the armory. AFAIK no commands around San Diego are mandating that you go register handguns with the state. Some base commander at Ft Cambell tried a similar thing and it got rescinded really quick. http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/campbell.asp

The provost marshalls office web page for Pendelton is erroneously saying the state requires it, but that's not a directive, and I guarantee who ever wrote the page looked at DOJ form and not PC.

Decoligny
03-31-2010, 1:56 PM
What command is directing members to register weapons with the state? You have to let the base know if you have it in base housing, and if your base housing is on base they want you to keep them at the armory. AFAIK no commands around San Diego are mandating that you go register handguns with the state. Some base commander at Ft Cambell tried a similar thing and it got rescinded really quick. http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/campbell.asp

The provost marshalls office web page for Pendelton is erroneously saying the state requires it, but that's not a directive, and I guarantee who ever wrote the page looked at DOJ form and not PC.

Not necessarily true. On Air Force bases the only people who have to keep their firearms in the armory are the dormitory residents who own guns. If you live in family housing you are allowed to keep your gun in your house, you just have to register it with the base.

kermit315
03-31-2010, 3:15 PM
Same with Navy bases.

Call_me_Tom
04-01-2010, 5:32 PM
What command is directing members to register weapons with the state?How the heck should I know? Do you have any idea how many military commands there are in California... My command doesn't require it but some may.

Simply put, if your command orders it then you are required to do it. If you don't...well, you know you were in the wrong. That doesn't mean I agree with it.

If my command directed that I had to register a weapon with California I would do so and then I would write a letter to the directing officer via my chain of command voicing my disagreement. BUT I would follow my orders first.

kermit315
04-01-2010, 5:44 PM
Simply put, if your command orders it then you are required to do it. If you don't...well, you know you were in the wrong. That doesn't mean I agree with it.



Has to be a lawful order. So many people seem to forget that.

markw
04-01-2010, 6:08 PM
Haha, that's the difference between sailors and marines. :) An order like that would get questioned so quick in the Navy, it'd never reach the troops.

kermit315
04-01-2010, 6:12 PM
Yep, kill it before it effects anybody.

Call_me_Tom
04-02-2010, 7:39 AM
Has to be a lawful order. So many people seem to forget that.
Yes, it has to be a lawful order. Requiring one to register a weapon is not unlawful. Like I said before, I don't agree with it but you'd have to prove that the order broke the law, was morally/unethical in nature, or degrading.

Decoligny
04-02-2010, 1:56 PM
Yes, it has to be a lawful order. Requiring one to register a weapon is not unlawful. Like I said before, I don't agree with it but you'd have to prove that the order broke the law, was morally/unethical in nature, or degrading.

No, there are illegal orders and there are extra-legal orders. It is not illegal to order a soldier to register their car in the state they are stationed. However, it applies a requirement that is still outside the authority of the person giving the order, i.e. extra-legal. It is the same with weapons registration. All it would take is one phone call to a congressman to shut it down in a heartbeat. Congressional Inquiries tend to get the attention of even the highest ranking officers. They are also routed through the Inspector General Office, and the IG is not in the chain of command, so isn't under the authority of the Base Commander.

todd2968
04-02-2010, 2:12 PM
So let me get this straight.
If I had a weapon that I bought at my last duty station, that in "that" state it was not required to register, and I brought it to THE PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF CALIFORNIA and some one broke into my house and I was forced to defend myself, I would not be charged with illegal possesion of and unregistered weapon in the State of California.

That's the $10,000,000 question

markw
04-02-2010, 3:06 PM
So let me get this straight.
If I had a weapon that I bought at my last duty station, that in "that" state it was not required to register, and I brought it to THE PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF CALIFORNIA and some one broke into my house and I was forced to defend myself, I would not be charged with illegal possesion of and unregistered weapon in the State of California.

That's the $10,000,000 question

Are you a California Resident? Ie joined the service from California and maintain residency here? If not, then do you meet the 13 requirements of 12001(n) to be a "Personal Handgun Importer?"

Note that 12001(o)(2) says:
(o) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (n):
(2) In the case of members of the Armed Forces of the United
States, residency shall be deemed to be established when he or she
was discharged from active service in this state.

So if you are not from California, (o)(2) specifically says that (n)(6) doesn't apply until you are discharged and you remain in California. So since (n)(6) doesn't apply, you don't meet all 13 requirements to be a "Personal Handgun Importer". Once you're discharged and you stay here then you meet all 13 but until then....

This is being researched by people more in the know than myself. Should be interesting since the DOJ has been collecting $$ from service members for what 12 years now?? They even have the balls to ask for a copy of your pcs orders on the AB991 form.

Call_me_Tom
04-02-2010, 8:34 PM
No, there are illegal orders and there are extra-legal orders. It is not illegal to order a soldier to register their car in the state they are stationed. However, it applies a requirement that is still outside the authority of the person giving the order, i.e. extra-legal. It is the same with weapons registration. All it would take is one phone call to a congressman to shut it down in a heartbeat. Congressional Inquiries tend to get the attention of even the highest ranking officers. They are also routed through the Inspector General Office, and the IG is not in the chain of command, so isn't under the authority of the Base Commander.
Congressional inquires are a dime a dozen. I can't even keep track of all of the bogus inquires conducted on behalf of cry baby Marines against me.

Like I said before, I think having to register a weapon is stupid but if you are ordered to do so & you don't follow through you can be charged. Better to just obey the order and then file a complaint.

Besides, we all know the game, if you make waves in your command they'll be he'll to pay down the road...not everyone is perfect & it's only a matter of time before one makes a mistake.

Decoligny
04-03-2010, 10:11 AM
Congressional inquires are a dime a dozen. I can't even keep track of all of the bogus inquires conducted on behalf of cry baby Marines against me.

Like I said before, I think having to register a weapon is stupid but if you are ordered to do so & you don't follow through you can be charged. Better to just obey the order and then file a complaint.

Besides, we all know the game, if you make waves in your command they'll be he'll to pay down the road...not everyone is perfect & it's only a matter of time before one makes a mistake.

Congressional Inquiries may be a dime a dozen, but each one has to be answered, and the answers are indeed checked for accuracy. If they are bogus, then they are determined to be bogus and are just worthless whining. But if they have weight, and they have a little bit of research backing them up, like references to the CA Penal Code which defines who needs to register a gun in California, then they are not worthless paper, they are a strong weapon.

If it's not in the heat of battle, it's better to question the validity of the order in a respectful manner and to seek clarification than it is to blindly obey and then seek retribution by filing a complaint.

I absolutely hate it when people are afraid of "possible consequences" and "repercussions" for standing up for what they believe to be right.

I did 20 years active duty, and have faced the "possible repercussions" more than once. If something is wrong, it is wrong. It doesn't matter if it is a Senior NCO or a Field Grade Officer saying "do it", it doesn't make it a lawful order. I told a 2 Star that I couldn't do what he wanted me to do and I had the stones to stand my ground, because I was right, even when he thought I was dead wrong. He was pissed off, attempted to have me severely disciplined, but later, he found out that I was actually right, and that I kept him from taking the heat for misappropriation of Government funds, he apologized.

You either stand your ground, or you fold. Character is 100% of the time, or it is 0% of the time. There is no midde ground.

Quiet
04-03-2010, 10:41 AM
Fort Bragg offers guidance to increase weapon registration awareness (http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/01/08/32659-fort-bragg-offers-guidance-to-increase-weapon-registration-awareness/)

This pic caused quite a stir when it came out last year.

Pic was taken at Fort Benning, GA.
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/ft-benning-terrorist-sign.jpg

Call_me_Tom
04-05-2010, 11:54 AM
Congressional Inquiries may be a dime a dozen, but each one has to be answered, and the answers are indeed checked for accuracy. If they are bogus, then they are determined to be bogus and are just worthless whining. But if they have weight, and they have a little bit of research backing them up, like references to the CA Penal Code which defines who needs to register a gun in California, then they are not worthless paper, they are a strong weapon.

If it's not in the heat of battle, it's better to question the validity of the order in a respectful manner and to seek clarification than it is to blindly obey and then seek retribution by filing a complaint.

I absolutely hate it when people are afraid of "possible consequences" and "repercussions" for standing up for what they believe to be right.

I did 20 years active duty, and have faced the "possible repercussions" more than once. If something is wrong, it is wrong. It doesn't matter if it is a Senior NCO or a Field Grade Officer saying "do it", it doesn't make it a lawful order. I told a 2 Star that I couldn't do what he wanted me to do and I had the stones to stand my ground, because I was right, even when he thought I was dead wrong. He was pissed off, attempted to have me severely disciplined, but later, he found out that I was actually right, and that I kept him from taking the heat for misappropriation of Government funds, he apologized.

You either stand your ground, or you fold. Character is 100% of the time, or it is 0% of the time. There is no midde ground.
I've read your comment along with other SNCO's, field grade officers and a couple of civilians here in my office. We found your comment about disobeying a flag grade officer amusing.


Your advice is not sound and anyone who wishes to follow it will have a hard road ahead of them.

Decoligny
04-05-2010, 2:59 PM
I've read your comment along with other SNCO's, field grade officers and a couple of civilians here in my office. We found your comment about disobeying a flag grade officer amusing.

Your advice is not sound and anyone who wishes to follow it will have a hard road ahead of them.

Giggle away.

So, are you saying that the next time a flag officer wants to use funds fenced by Congress for one and only one specific purpose for a totally different and unrelated purpose, I should let him misappropriate the funds and have both him and me spend some time together in federal prison? Not gonna happen!

If you know FOR A FACT that you are right, and can back it up, always stand your ground.

NiteQwill
04-05-2010, 3:11 PM
I've read your comment along with other SNCO's, field grade officers and a couple of civilians here in my office. We found your comment about disobeying a flag grade officer amusing.


Your advice is not sound and anyone who wishes to follow it will have a hard road ahead of them.
There is a line that must not be crossed when giving/following orders. You can't blindingly follow an order than you KNOW is illegal/wrong.

Too many times I have seen stripes and brass abuse their rank to rationalize an order.

I, like Decoligny, have been in a situation where a flag officer ordered me to identify personnel and perform a duty that I clearly knew "was not right." I wear stripes and my first priority is the mission and the wellfare of my Soldiers; the order I was given clearly did not take those two things into account. I fought tooth and nail to protect my lower enlisted, even with the threat of possible UCMJ over my head... but in the end I was found in the right.

markw
04-05-2010, 8:08 PM
The original post was pointing out what California PC says vs what the DOJ forms say. Whether or not your CO can order you to register your firearm with with the state is a different subject.

Right now from reading PC, 12001(o)(2) specifically exempts military non residents from the 12072(f)(2) 60 day requirements. It may be interesting to see what comes of this.

groats
04-06-2010, 6:00 AM
Fort Bragg offers guidance to increase weapon registration awareness (http://www.army.mil/-news/2010/01/08/32659-fort-bragg-offers-guidance-to-increase-weapon-registration-awareness/)

This pic caused quite a stir when it came out last year.

Pic was taken at Fort Benning, GA.
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/ft-benning-terrorist-sign.jpg

Doubly funny, since GA has no (zero, zip) firearms registration.
Therefore, it is only a base regulation. So.... the Army considers a soldier with an unregistered gun to be a terrorist?

Call_me_Tom
04-15-2010, 5:28 PM
How the heck should I know? Do you have any idea how many military commands there are in California... My command doesn't require it but some may.

Simply put, if your command orders it then you are required to do it. If you don't...well, you know you were in the wrong. That doesn't mean I agree with it.

If my command directed that I had to register a weapon with California I would do so and then I would write a letter to the directing officer via my chain of command voicing my disagreement. BUT I would follow my orders first.
Just a little update as I was doing some research on another thread.

My command does in fact require all military members regardless of their state of residence to register their handguns with the Ca DOJ.

Base Order 5000.2k

This pertains to Camp Pendleton only and is current as of 18 Feb 2010.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=4129332&postcount=13


I wanted to get this word out before anyone decided to follow the poor advice previously given. I would hate to see some good intentioned Marine, Soldier, Sailor or Airman disobey a flag grade officer and get slammed.