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View Full Version : Do you know of any HOAs and CCRs restricting firearm possession?


Foghlai
03-30-2010, 8:00 PM
Good Evening Folks,

I am interested in finding out if any of you live in, or know people who live in, houses, condos, or apartments controlled by HOAs that restrict firearm possession in their rules/regulations, or CCRs.

I can think of one, but I am curious if it is a more wide-spread issue.

Thank you very much!

Erik

Glock-matic
03-30-2010, 8:09 PM
Not legal to do so. In Public housing (projects) these were challenged and they relented. Perhaps a good CGF atty could elaborate.

GearHead
03-30-2010, 8:18 PM
Not legal to do so. In Public housing (projects) these were challenged and they relented. Perhaps a good CGF atty could elaborate.

Can a landlord restrict you from having legally owned firearms in a rented property?

kf6tac
03-30-2010, 8:20 PM
Not legal to do so. In Public housing (projects) these were challenged and they relented. Perhaps a good CGF atty could elaborate.

The projects are under the control of a government entity, so their regulations are subject to state preemption and, in the case of federal-run projects, Heller. HOAs are, generally speaking, entities formed by property owners acting in their private, individual capacities, and as such they can agree to ban firearms in their property.

I'm sure there are plenty of nuances that I'm not aware of, but it's more than likely not nearly as simple as pointing to the fact that it can't be done in public housing.

Foghlai
03-30-2010, 8:23 PM
Can a landlord restrict you from having legally owned firearms in a rented property?

Sadly I'm sure it has happened and likely continues to happen.

As I said, I know of at least one HOA that DOES restrict firearm possession. I just wanted to know if anyone here has dealt with others or knows of anyone who has. Thanks!

Satex
03-30-2010, 8:24 PM
Can a landlord restrict you from having legally owned firearms in a rented property?

A lease agreement is a contract between the landlord and tenant. The agreement can address what color underwear is worn by the tenant if both sides so agree to.

GearHead
03-30-2010, 8:25 PM
A lease agreement is a contract between the landlord and tenant. The agreement can address what color underwear is worn by the tenant if both sides so agree to.

I wish we had a MN style law that prevents 2A rights from being diminished in housing contracts.

Nessal
03-30-2010, 8:32 PM
A lease agreement is a contract between the landlord and tenant. The agreement can address what color underwear is worn by the tenant if both sides so agree to.



But I'm sure that a contract is void if it is against the law.

kf6tac
03-30-2010, 8:36 PM
But I'm sure that a contract is void if it is against the law.

It's not against the law for a person to agree not to exercise a legal right in exchange for something else. Unless all non-disclosure agreements are void because an NDA is basically one party signing away his or her right to free speech on the topic of whatever is covered by the NDA.

jtyner
03-30-2010, 8:56 PM
My HOA bans firearms outright on association property, but I'm assuming that the ban does not extend into my home or my vehicle as I enter/exit the community. I haven't looked into it much, though, on the assumption that if they don't know I have it, I won't have to deal with them.

Glock-matic
03-30-2010, 9:14 PM
The projects are under the control of a government entity, so their regulations are subject to state preemption and, in the case of federal-run projects, Heller. HOAs are, generally speaking, entities formed by property owners acting in their private, individual capacities, and as such they can agree to ban firearms in their property.

I'm sure there are plenty of nuances that I'm not aware of, but it's more than likely not nearly as simple as pointing to the fact that it can't be done in public housing.

There is truth to this, it has been a grey area, but it does come up under the equal protection clause. No specific case law that I know of. HOA's are funny, they technically there to govern the public access areas and appearance of the house. The house is your property, the firearm, in and of itself does not present a hazard to the neighbors. I am sure people sign and abide by the agreements, but I don't know that they are legal.

Glock-matic
03-30-2010, 9:15 PM
My HOA bans firearms outright on association property, but I'm assuming that the ban does not extend into my home or my vehicle as I enter/exit the community. I haven't looked into it much, though, on the assumption that if they don't know I have it, I won't have to deal with them.

I think the key term is "association property". They don't own your house or vehicle.

OlderThanDirt
03-30-2010, 9:16 PM
An HOA could ban firearms in common areas, such as the community pool or sport courts, but could not restrict your basic constitutional rights on your property. That would be like an HOA forcing you to give up your right to free speech or illegal search and seizure. The threat of a lawsuit would make an HOA board back down pretty fast.

jtyner
03-30-2010, 11:00 PM
Here is the actual text from my HOA's rules and regulations. It turns out that it is less restrictive than I remembered.

Firearms and Explosives:
To maintain the safety of our community and all residents, the use or discharge of firearms or potentially dangerous devices of any kind is strictly prohibited anywhere within the community’s Association Property, generally referred to as the Association’s “Common Area,” including, but not limited to the Association’s green belt areas, tot lot, pool complex, streets and sidewalks. This prohibition applies to pistols, rifles, shotguns, automatic and semi-automatic weapons, bb guns, pellet guns, paint-ball guns, bows and arrows, slingshots, fireworks and other explosive devices of any kind, as well as any and all other similar potentially dangerous devices. Law enforcement personnel are exempt from this prohibition when acting in their official capacity.

rabagley
03-30-2010, 11:21 PM
That only prohibits use. It does not prohibit possession or transport.

fairfaxjim
03-30-2010, 11:34 PM
Firearms and Explosives:
To maintain the safety of our community and all residents, the use or discharge of firearms or potentially dangerous devices of any kind is strictly prohibited anywhere within the community’s Association Property, generally referred to as the Association’s “Common Area,” including, but not limited to the Association’s green belt areas, tot lot, pool complex, streets and sidewalks. This prohibition applies to pistols, rifles, shotguns, automatic and semi-automatic weapons, bb guns, pellet guns, paint-ball guns, bows and arrows, slingshots, fireworks and other explosive devices of any kind, as well as any and all other similar potentially dangerous devices. Law enforcement personnel are exempt from this prohibition when acting in their official capacity.

That language is redundant - state and local law already prevents - and preempts - the described actions. Wasted ink.

CSDGuy
03-31-2010, 12:10 AM
Yep. That HOA rule prohibits use. Possession and transport are different from the actual use/discharge of those implements. What gets interesting is if they try to apply those rules to persons that are not beholden to them...

I work in a private community. We have people within the community that do NOT belong to the HOA. As such, "the rules" do not apply to them whatsoever. Parking restrictions, appearance/color of property restrictions, authorized vehicles... all of those don't apply.

I wonder if "the rules" would apply non-residents...

Otherwise, generally speaking, there are laws about that (usually) and the rules are redundant. However, it does bring up an interesting point... you shoot "something" on common property, you could be fined by the HOA and you'd still be subject to criminal prosecution.

Alaric
03-31-2010, 12:54 AM
Archstone Apartments (http://www.archstoneapartments.com/) (with numerous complexes all over the state) restrict simple firearm possession by their tenants.

13. PROHIBITED CONDUCT.
13.1 In General. You will not engage in, and you will not permit Occupants or Guests to engage in, the following activities in the Apartment Community: (1) loud or obnoxious conduct; (2) disturbing or threatening the rights, comfort, health, safety, or convenience of others or our employees, agents or vendors; (3) engaging in or threatening violence; (4) marking or defacing any building, structure or any other property; (5) discharging a firearm; (6) displaying or possessing a gun, knife or other item, which is intended to be used as a weapon; (7) soliciting business or contributions; (8) storing anything that is flammable; (9) tampering with utilities or any sub-meter or other measuring device or system for utilities; (10) possessing or handling hazardous materials; (11) using candles or lamps, which create or contain a flame; (12) disrupting our business operations; and (13) engaging in any other conduct prohibited by the Lease.

IMHO I think they're begging for a class-action suit against them on behalf of every lessee who is having their freedoms trampled upon when they sign a lease in good faith.

campperrykid
03-31-2010, 1:13 AM
+1
Archstone looks like a very juicey possible/probable target for a law suit.
:owned:

AEC1
03-31-2010, 1:52 AM
My Military housing just says they have to be locked up seperate from ammo. I dont obey....

CaliforniaCarry
03-31-2010, 1:54 AM
My girlfriend lives in an apartment complex that prohibits firearms... in Texas, no less, and not in the safest part of town either :(

Foghlai
03-31-2010, 3:00 AM
Archstone Apartments (http://www.archstoneapartments.com/) (with numerous complexes all over the state) restrict simple firearm possession by their tenants.



IMHO I think they're begging for a class-action suit against them on behalf of every lessee who is having their freedoms trampled upon when they sign a lease in good faith.

Thank you sir! This is the sort of thing I am looking for!

BananaTyrant
03-31-2010, 5:28 AM
Archstone Apartments (http://www.archstoneapartments.com/) (with numerous complexes all over the state) restrict simple firearm possession by their tenants.

13. PROHIBITED CONDUCT.
13.1 In General. You will not engage in, and you will not permit Occupants or Guests to engage in, the following activities in the Apartment Community: (1) loud or obnoxious conduct; (2) disturbing or threatening the rights, comfort, health, safety, or convenience of others or our employees, agents or vendors; (3) engaging in or threatening violence; (4) marking or defacing any building, structure or any other property; (5) discharging a firearm; (6) displaying or possessing a gun, knife or other item, which is intended to be used as a weapon; (7) soliciting business or contributions; (8) storing anything that is flammable; (9) tampering with utilities or any sub-meter or other measuring device or system for utilities; (10) possessing or handling hazardous materials; (11) using candles or lamps, which create or contain a flame; (12) disrupting our business operations; and (13) engaging in any other conduct prohibited by the Lease.

IMHO I think they're begging for a class-action suit against them on behalf of every lessee who is having their freedoms trampled upon when they sign a lease in good faith.

I like how (2) prohibits the the "disturbing or threatening the rights" of various people, and (6) removes(disturbs?) a right. Although on my first read through it seemed like they meant in possession on your person, not necessarily in your home.

zhyla
03-31-2010, 6:36 AM
I lived in an Archstone complex up until a couple months ago. Maybe I missed it in subsequent leases but the first one just said you couldn't brandish (or maybe it was display) firearms. Never said anything about knives.

Didn't see any mention of firearms in my new HOA.

ZombieTactics
03-31-2010, 6:45 AM
It seems to me that several of those restrictions are so impossibly vague as to be unenforceable.

You can't store "anything that is flammable"? Well, that sure means I can't put away Winter clothing in the Spring, or keep a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the medicine cabinet, eh?

"Displaying or possessing a gun, knife or other item, which is intended to be used as a weapon"? I had it displayed in my gun case for the purposes of aesthetic beauty. I possessed it for the purpose of ownership.

"Possessing or handling hazardous materials"? Well, the EPA considers fluoride a neuro-toxin, so that means no toothpaste.

ALSystems
03-31-2010, 6:49 AM
Here is the actual text from my HOA's rules and regulations. It turns out that it is less restrictive than I remembered.

Firearms and Explosives:
To maintain the safety of our community and all residents, the use or discharge of firearms or potentially dangerous devices of any kind is strictly prohibited anywhere within the community’s Association Property, generally referred to as the Association’s “Common Area,” including, but not limited to the Association’s green belt areas, tot lot, pool complex, streets and sidewalks. This prohibition applies to pistols, rifles, shotguns, automatic and semi-automatic weapons, bb guns, pellet guns, paint-ball guns, bows and arrows, slingshots, fireworks and other explosive devices of any kind, as well as any and all other similar potentially dangerous devices. Law enforcement personnel are exempt from this prohibition when acting in their official capacity.


Based on the above HOA rules:
What if you fired a BB or pellet gun or bow in your patio area (I'm assuming you have a separate fenced private patio area). I suppose that would be ok because that is not an "Common Area".

GrizzlyGuy
03-31-2010, 7:13 AM
Here is the firearm rule for my HOA:

Fireworks, Firearms, Archery. Use, including the bearing of, firearms, air guns, archery equipment or fireworks of any kind is prohibited on any Common Area or other Association-owned property, with the exception that archery equipment may be used at the {HOA name} Archery Range.

It doesn't apply to private homes and I've never heard of it being enforced, so it hasn't been an area of concern for me.

groats
03-31-2010, 7:52 AM
HOa's have gotten a bad reputation around here (nosy busybodies with too much time on their hands inevitably take over and try to run everyones' lives).

So much so, that I have had a real estate agent tell me outright that "you wouldn't want to buy here, because of the HOA".

He didn't lose a sale - such honesty should be rewarded.

Stealth
03-31-2010, 7:54 AM
>> (5) discharging a firearm; (6) displaying or possessing a gun, knife or other item, which is intended to be used as a weapon


Okay you can't fire a firearm. 5 seems harmless.

6 sounds bad at first. But the key phrase is "which is intended to be used as a weapon".

Okay so if you have a gun and say "its not intended to be used as a weapon". Your goal is to make holes in a piece a paper 50 yards away. In this case its a tool to make holes - not a weapon. Your okay.

The other funny part is "other item, which is intended to be used as a weapon". Someone in this complex who holds their keys between their fingers as a weapon is not allowed to have those keys....

IMHO the rule is weak and full of holes.

crackerman
03-31-2010, 7:58 AM
My apartments actually have a separate rider you sign that agrees to immediate eviction if you "negligently discharge a firearm". Exact wording. I liked the wording because it seems they allow Self Defense affirmatively.

I could just see this conversation;
Them "We are evicting you because you shot a guy"
Me "He was trying to rape my wife"
Them "oh OK since you meant to shoot him, never mind"

ocspeedracer
03-31-2010, 8:54 AM
it's kind of like race restrictions, sure some still have them in there but are they inforcible...NOPE

Dragunov
03-31-2010, 10:12 AM
Archstone Apartments (http://www.archstoneapartments.com/) (with numerous complexes all over the state) restrict simple firearm possession by their tenants.



IMHO I think they're begging for a class-action suit against them on behalf of every lessee who is having their freedoms trampled upon when they sign a lease in good faith.

I called Archstone and spoke with both the central office and the local office in pleasanton. They do not restrict firearms possession. I told them I have firearms and was told by both offices that firearms possession is not restricted. As a matter of fact, I myself live in a nice, gated community and they told me it was illegal for them to restrict firearms possession by tennants.

Just FYI

jtyner
03-31-2010, 1:34 PM
HOa's have gotten a bad reputation around here (nosy busybodies with too much time on their hands inevitably take over and try to run everyones' lives).

And deservedly so.

I ran (again) and won a seat on my HOA's board this year mostly to address the sorry state of its finances but also to slow, stop, and/or reverse the nosy busybody trend in our association, but I digress. Fortunately, our rules are in the process of being repealed for other reasons, and if the effort succeeds, the firearm restriction would be removed as well.

Alaric
03-31-2010, 1:52 PM
I called Archstone and spoke with both the central office and the local office in pleasanton. They do not restrict firearms possession. I told them I have firearms and was told by both offices that firearms possession is not restricted. As a matter of fact, I myself live in a nice, gated community and they told me it was illegal for them to restrict firearms possession by tennants.

Just FYI

When I lived in an Archstone complex in San Diego County, over a year ago, I was told that firearms are prohibited and shown the provision in the lease I quoted to back it up. I get the feeling the lease is boilerplate, and how it's interpreted is up to the onsite management. The complex I lived in clearly veered to a strict interpretation of the rules. While I lived there they also banned barbecues and continually hassled anyone with anything stored on their patio.

Seems to me that if you mess with a man's guns and burnt meat you're just asking for trouble. :43:

IGOTDIRT4U
03-31-2010, 3:59 PM
And deservedly so.

I ran (again) and won a seat on my HOA's board this year mostly to address the sorry state of its finances but also to slow, stop, and/or reverse the nosy busybody trend in our association, but I digress. Fortunately, our rules are in the process of being repealed for other reasons, and if the effort succeeds, the firearm restriction would be removed as well.

I've been on our HOA for 10 of the 13 years I have lived here (and our tract has existed). So far, no one has even mentioned a firearm restriction, but I don't see that ever being an issue as we are individual houses, and one of the Board members is a gun loving cop. :43:

loather
03-31-2010, 5:04 PM
HOAs are evil. Usually a bunch of petty people who live an unfulfilled life and have nothing better to do than get in the way of someone else's life. I will not again live somewhere bound by an HOA or ridiculous CC&Rs. Damnit, if I want to paint my house purple, I'm going to paint it purple. I don't get into your business on or about your property, so stay out of mine. HOAs don't make a drop of sense for detached housing anyways.

HOAs have far too much power. The power to evict a homeowner from his property -- think about that for a moment. The power to tell you what you can and cannot do in your own home. No, I dislike tyranny in all forms. HOAs are over-the-top in that department and I won't have any part of it.

campperrykid
04-02-2010, 3:18 AM
I guess milage varies . Getting involved in HOA or a condo work & policy making can be some great experience in retail politics . In most states , HOA's are like little constitutional republics under the umbrella of the state law.
The basic framework is there. How the place is actually run all comes down to the voters and who they elect.

dfletcher
04-02-2010, 8:51 AM
HOAs are evil. Usually a bunch of petty people who live an unfulfilled life and have nothing better to do than get in the way of someone else's life.


Actually, I think Hitler was home schooled in an HOA. ;)

campperrykid
04-03-2010, 10:01 AM
Rings true:
Actually, I think Hitler was home schooled in an HOA. ;)

An HOA that was dominated by a small inbred group of people who were ALWAYS RIGHT , but tragically...... everybody else was always wrong.