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ChuckBooty
03-30-2010, 8:44 AM
So I'm moving my family into military housing in Dublin, Ca (https://moffett.pinnaclefamilyhousing.com/). It's hands DOWN the best military housing I've seen in my career. Then I come across THIS gem in the resident hand book (https://pinnaclemil.residentworks.com/media_library/1927/4b3ba06ce524f146.pdf):

8.35. Weapons
The use of firearms is prohibited. All personally owned firearms and weapons must be registered with the City of Mountain View Police Department and stored in accordance with all applicable regulations. This includes BB guns, paintball guns, pistols, rifles, bows, or any other weapon or firearm. Weapons and firearms may be stored in the home as long as they are locked, to include trigger locks, and stored out of the reach of children. Ammunition must be stored in a separate location from the firearm. No loaded firearms are allowed at The Villages at Moffet and Parks unless the owner is an active, full-time member of a local, state, or federal law enforcement agency or military service member and is authorized to carry the weapon during the normal course of their duties.

Can they do this? What are you thoughts?

rjf
03-30-2010, 8:54 AM
On base housing you are subject to search every time you enter the base. If not, it's their rules which you can choose to obey or not. Don't forget that kitchen knife set:)

paul0660
03-30-2010, 8:55 AM
Sounds like you are on the grounds of Camp Parks? I think they can make any demands they want.

QuarterBoreGunner
03-30-2010, 9:21 AM
Literally, their house, their rules.

sfpcservice
03-30-2010, 9:35 AM
How does Heller play into this? I know after Heller requiring a firearm to be locked in a house on federal property wouldn't pass muster. The issue here is this is a military base, but aside from that it's still a private residence. Somebody smarter than me will have to answer this one.

Robidouxs
03-30-2010, 9:37 AM
Within Mountain View there is land off base which is considered federal land and is base housing, but is not within the jurisdiction of the City of Mountain View (it is non-existent on city records and maps, but there are indeed buildings present on this piece of land and surrounded by the City of Mountain View). The other section of land within Moffett field which was old base housing was either given to the City of Mountain View at some point in time or was built out onto land which the City of Mountain View owned.

QuarterBoreGunner
03-30-2010, 9:38 AM
Why, that's not confusing at all. Clear as mud.

OleCuss
03-30-2010, 9:45 AM
How does Heller play into this? I know after Heller requiring a firearm to be locked in a house on federal property wouldn't pass muster. The issue here is this is a military base, but aside from that it's still a private residence. Somebody smarter than me will have to answer this one.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think Heller will apply. When you join the military you lose certain rights. You can be abused more than can the prisoners at Gitmo and you do not have the same freedom of speech that a civilian has, etc.

You may eventually be able to get the military to follow policies that comport with my view of how the 2A should apply - but I think that you would need a case separate from Heller and from McDonald in order to make that happen. I also think the case would be more difficult to win than either Heller or McDonald.

FWIW

tpuig
03-30-2010, 10:58 AM
To the best of my knowledge, the city of Mountain View has no requirement to register firearms. The housing referenced here is next to Moffett and is not gated. (about 5 minutes from where I live) You will be in Dublin, an hour away. I suspect that a call to the Mtn View PD to clarify this will offer you an amusing interaction...

That being said, every military base I've ever been on has a policy of checking your guns at the door, so to speak. Sometimes you can just inform the Provost about the weapons, some you need to store in the armory. Things may have changed, but you might just ask. There are others on Calguns that reside or used to reside on Camp Parks.

ChuckBooty
03-30-2010, 11:07 AM
Yeah...this is off-post housing. And it's civilian run as well. I don't see this ever being enforced either. But part of me would like to see the look on the desk clerks face at the PD office when I walk in with a burlap sack filled with firearms and gently dump them on the desk. "I'm here to register these" :)

ChuckBooty
03-30-2010, 11:08 AM
Also...I'm pretty sure they can't do walk in my home and do an "MWR" search either. Like I said...it's civilian run. I have to pay a pet deposite and all that.

HskrVern
03-30-2010, 12:17 PM
Also...I'm pretty sure they can't do walk in my home and do an "MWR" search either. Like I said...it's civilian run. I have to pay a pet deposite and all that.

Depends on your privitized housing provider. If its Forrest City they are good and will leave you alone. BUT if its Lincoln Housing they can, and will, use any excuse to search your house. I had a maintenance call about a water leak and before I knew it the housing director was inspecting every room the was in (went so far as to check under my dryer and complain about my plug in). Lincoln Housing also considers Ebay a "home buisness" and doesn't allow it, good luck on enforcing that! If you do have Lincoln, just make sure to lock your screen door, they won't mess with it to get in.

ChuckBooty
03-30-2010, 12:45 PM
Depends on your privitized housing provider. If its Forrest City they are good and will leave you alone. BUT if its Lincoln Housing they can, and will, use any excuse to search your house. I had a maintenance call about a water leak and before I knew it the housing director was inspecting every room the was in (went so far as to check under my dryer and complain about my plug in). Lincoln Housing also considers Ebay a "home buisness" and doesn't allow it, good luck on enforcing that! If you do have Lincoln, just make sure to lock your screen door, they won't mess with it to get in.

I think it's a company called Pinnacle or something. I'm not worried about it. NOBODY is getting in my house without my permission. And the whole "firearms" part of that handbook, IMO, was nothing more than a CYA move so that if another MAJ Hassan thing happens they can say, "See? Well the guy didn't follow OUR rules. It's not OUR fault".

JDay
03-30-2010, 1:24 PM
Just take your BAH and find another place if you don't like it.

campperrykid
03-30-2010, 2:43 PM
FWIW:
Discuss the situation with either:
IG's office.
Congress rep or Senator.

Something just ain't right.

ChuckBooty
03-30-2010, 4:21 PM
FWIW:
Discuss the situation with either:
IG's office.
Congress rep or Senator.

Something just ain't right.

I'll do that if it becomes an issue. I don't see this going anywhere.

Call_me_Tom
03-30-2010, 5:47 PM
If it's military housing & you are a military member you fall under the UCMJ. Any MP or others from your chain of command can come into your house without your permission. You have no say in the matter.

On Camp Pendlton housing weapons must be registered with the Provost Marshal Office & checked into the armory.

bodega bob
03-30-2010, 6:12 PM
Like tpuig said, Dublin is a long way from Mt. View and Moffat.
Nobody would want to commute from there to Dublin.

I suspect that nobody has read those rules since Moffat Field was closed as a Naval Air Station in 1994, and taken over by NASA Ames Research Center.

todd2968
03-30-2010, 6:18 PM
The base housing has absolutely nothing to do with the government except they are a Government contractor. As long as you are legal to CCW it should be none of their business. UCMJ does not apply they are under the jurisdiction of the local law enforcement not base security.

I submitted a question to their website referencing their rules and the following questions. I'll keep you posted if they respond.

Is your Village patroled by armed guards over and above that of law enforcement?
Please explain what measures you have to keep my family safe, since I am not personally allowed to myself?

Glock-matic
03-30-2010, 6:41 PM
If it's military housing & you are a military member you fall under the UCMJ. Any MP or others from your chain of command can come into your house without your permission. You have no say in the matter.

On Camp Pendlton housing weapons must be registered with the Provost Marshal Office & checked into the armory.

Not entirely true, you and your car can be searched any time when on a military base, but off-post housing still requires a warrant. Even some on-post housing requires a warrant. There are still exclusionary rules for evidence gathered w/o warrant. There are some good to go warrantless searched, but they are usually linked to controlled weapons or classified materials.

HskrVern
03-30-2010, 6:51 PM
If it's military housing & you are a military member you fall under the UCMJ. Any MP or others from your chain of command can come into your house without your permission. You have no say in the matter.

On Camp Pendlton housing weapons must be registered with the Provost Marshal Office & checked into the armory.

Don't you mean the MP free gun rental office??

todd2968
03-30-2010, 7:28 PM
Pendleton housing is on base!!!!

ChuckBooty
03-30-2010, 7:46 PM
This is NOT on Camp Parks. It's not on a military installation. In fact, the way that you pay the rent is by setting up an allotment for all of your BAH to the company (as opposed to the old-style of just simply NOT GETTING your BAH). So this is nothing more than a normal rental property that simply rents to military members. Your rent happens to be based upon your BAH, that's all.

And I don't know how the Marines operate...but in the active Army, your unit can NOT simply walk into your military housing (the barraks is a different story) and do a check. The MP's need to do it and they need PC or a warrent to enter.

And besides, I'm not saying that I'm not going to comply....

todd2968
03-30-2010, 7:50 PM
Swore an oath to Support and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic and it looks like this place is an enemy of the 2nd ammendment to the constitution. Enough said!!!

Glock-matic
03-30-2010, 8:03 PM
This is NOT on Camp Parks. It's not on a military installation. In fact, the way that you pay the rent is by setting up an allotment for all of your BAH to the company (as opposed to the old-style of just simply NOT GETTING your BAH). So this is nothing more than a normal rental property that simply rents to military members. Your rent happens to be based upon your BAH, that's all.

And I don't know how the Marines operate...but in the active Army, your unit can NOT simply walk into your military housing (the barraks is a different story) and do a check. The MP's need to do it and they need PC or a warrent to enter.

And besides, I'm not saying that I'm not going to comply....

UCMJ is uniform to all branches of the military. Warrants are issued by the base commander based on PC and are very limited in scope. It matters not if the area to be searched is on or off post, UCMJ grants jurisdiction of MPs to any off post area where there are military personnel.

Health and welfare checks are allowed as well as personnel and equipment readiness checks without warrants, and can be any time with or without consent. However, these are specifically not allowed to procure evidence and are usually used in on-post housing.

Of issue, with firearms, is that you must comply with local and state ordinances. For example, you must register any handgun you bring in to California. Of another note, and for trivia, double jeopardy does not apply to civilian courts and UCMJ courts, it is legal for you to be judged and convicted by court marshall as well as state and federal courts.

markw
03-30-2010, 8:22 PM
Of issue, with firearms, is that you must comply with local and state ordinances. For example, you must register any handgun you bring in to California.

Ok, please, show me where active duty military must register a handgun in the state of California if they're not a resident of the state. You're only required to register a handgun if you're a "personal handgun importer" ie moving here to establish residency and bringing them with you. Active duty have to go out of the way to establish residency.

Here's 12001 which establishes what a personal handgun importer is: The out for active duty military is 12001(o)(2). You're not establishing residency until you are discharged. Therefore and active duty military member does not meet _ALL_ the requirements setforth in 12001(n).

(n) As used in this chapter, a "personal handgun importer" means
an individual who meets all of the following criteria:
(1) He or she is not a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
(2) He or she is not a licensed manufacturer of firearms pursuant
to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United
States Code.
(3) He or she is not a licensed importer of firearms pursuant to
Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United
States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) He or she is the owner of a handgun.
(5) He or she acquired that handgun outside of California.
(6) He or she moves into this state on or after January 1, 1998,
as a resident of this state.
(7) He or she intends to possess that handgun within this state on
or after January 1, 1998.
(8) The handgun was not delivered to him or her by a person
licensed pursuant to Section 12071 who delivered that firearm
following the procedures set forth in Section 12071 and subdivision
(c) of Section 12072.
(9) He or she, while a resident of this state, had not previously
reported his or her ownership of that handgun to the Department of
Justice in a manner prescribed by the department that included
information concerning him or her and a description of the firearm.
(10) The handgun is not a firearm that is prohibited by
subdivision (a) of Section 12020.
(11) The handgun is not an assault weapon, as defined in Section
12276 or 12276.1.
(12) The handgun is not a machinegun, as defined in Section 12200.
(13) The person is 18 years of age or older.

(o) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (n):
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), residency shall be
determined in the same manner as is the case for establishing
residency pursuant to Section 12505 of the Vehicle Code.
(2) In the case of members of the Armed Forces of the United
States, residency shall be deemed to be established when he or she
was discharged from active service in this state.

Call_me_Tom
03-30-2010, 8:31 PM
UCMJ is uniform to all branches of the military. Warrants are issued by the base commander based on PC and are very limited in scope. It matters not if the area to be searched is on or off post, UCMJ grants jurisdiction of MPs to any off post area where there are military personnel.

Health and welfare checks are allowed as well as personnel and equipment readiness checks without warrants, and can be any time with or without consent. However, these are specifically not allowed to procure evidence and are usually used in on-post housing.

Of issue, with firearms, is that you must comply with local and state ordinances. For example, you must register any handgun you bring in to California. Of another note, and for trivia, double jeopardy does not apply to civilian courts and UCMJ courts, it is legal for you to be judged and convicted by court marshall as well as state and federal courts.
Umm...you just made my point.


Simply put, I don't recommend living in Base Housing, on or off base. I've been on both sides of the coin from living in housing to inspecting someone elses house. Trust me, if they (MP/Command) want in, they're getting in.


The military protects democracy, they don't practice democracy.

todd2968
03-30-2010, 8:32 PM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf


look at the form

Call_me_Tom
03-30-2010, 8:34 PM
Ok, please, show me where active duty military must register a handgun in the state of California if they're not a resident of the state. You're only required to register a handgun if you're a "personal handgun importer" ie moving here to establish residency and bringing them with you. Active duty have to go out of the way to establish residency.

Here's 12001 which establishes what a personal handgun importer is: The out for active duty military is 12001(o)(2). You're not establishing residency until you are discharged. Therefore and active duty military member does not meet _ALL_ the requirements setforth in 12001(n).

(n) As used in this chapter, a "personal handgun importer" means
an individual who meets all of the following criteria:
(1) He or she is not a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
(2) He or she is not a licensed manufacturer of firearms pursuant
to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United
States Code.
(3) He or she is not a licensed importer of firearms pursuant to
Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United
States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) He or she is the owner of a handgun.
(5) He or she acquired that handgun outside of California.
(6) He or she moves into this state on or after January 1, 1998,
as a resident of this state.
(7) He or she intends to possess that handgun within this state on
or after January 1, 1998.
(8) The handgun was not delivered to him or her by a person
licensed pursuant to Section 12071 who delivered that firearm
following the procedures set forth in Section 12071 and subdivision
(c) of Section 12072.
(9) He or she, while a resident of this state, had not previously
reported his or her ownership of that handgun to the Department of
Justice in a manner prescribed by the department that included
information concerning him or her and a description of the firearm.
(10) The handgun is not a firearm that is prohibited by
subdivision (a) of Section 12020.
(11) The handgun is not an assault weapon, as defined in Section
12276 or 12276.1.
(12) The handgun is not a machinegun, as defined in Section 12200.
(13) The person is 18 years of age or older.

(o) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (n):
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), residency shall be
determined in the same manner as is the case for establishing
residency pursuant to Section 12505 of the Vehicle Code.
(2) In the case of members of the Armed Forces of the United
States, residency shall be deemed to be established when he or she
was discharged from active service in this state.
Base or command order will say that he has to register it. A military member is governed by a different set of laws.

markw
03-30-2010, 8:44 PM
Base or command order will say that he has to register it. A military member is governed by a different set of laws.

Yeah, I was there for 20 years. I know all about it. Most base commanders make you comply with local laws. The PC 12072(f)(2) is based on Residency or establishing residency. Unless a military member goes out of his/her way to establish themselves as a resident of CA (just getting a CDL doesn't do it). They're not a Resident. Trust me, I played the Non resident card every year on any cars I had registered in CA and filled out the little form to save on the license fee. $46/year for tags, yeah, I'll take that option. :)

markw
03-30-2010, 8:49 PM
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf

look at the form


Yes, it says "NEW RESIDENT HANDGUN OWNERSHIP REPORT"

What part of Active Duty Military aren't RESIDENTS of California unless they're from California did you miss? I'm going by california PC not a form created by the DOJ. PC says _NOT A RESIDENT UNTIL DISCHARGED_ therefore not a personal handgun importer.

The DOJ would _NEVER_ put up a form that's wrong. :eek:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/awguide.pdf


12001 defines personal handgun importer and 12072(f)(2) says a personal handgun importer must register the firearm in 60 days.

BigDogatPlay
03-30-2010, 10:45 PM
I worked for many years at a DoD facility that had housing on post as well as off. All the off post was under propietary jurisdiction meaning the government had landlords rights but most all criminal and civil matters were handled by local city and county authorities. The post had local commander's rules regarding registration of firearms, and those rules extended to the off post housing to all active duty members and their dependents. They could be stored securely in the home, just had to be registered.

I filled out a lot of those cards at the front desk during my time.

The basic question here; who owns the housing? I understand that it is not physically on post however,

a) If it's DoD owned but managed by a contractor, all DoD established rules including local command authority can and will apply. That includes "rules of the house" from the housing office. And good luck getting Heller to apply.

b) If it's privately owned and leased for use of DoD under some kind of arrangement or contract, then "rules of the house" can and do still apply, however any prohibition on firearms might be contrary to Heller, however since it is not a federal enclave, but Heller doesn't apply until after a favorable ruling on McDonald.

The recent win against San Francisco Housing Authority might be a lever, depending on the land use / property ownership situation.

JDay
03-31-2010, 2:26 AM
Ok, please, show me where active duty military must register a handgun in the state of California if they're not a resident of the state. You're only required to register a handgun if you're a "personal handgun importer" ie moving here to establish residency and bringing them with you. Active duty have to go out of the way to establish residency.

If you live in the state and your permanent duty station is in the state you are legally a resident of California. The only way you would not be a resident of the state your permanent duty station is in is if you commute from another state every day.

JDay
03-31-2010, 2:31 AM
Yes, it says "NEW RESIDENT HANDGUN OWNERSHIP REPORT"

What part of Active Duty Military aren't RESIDENTS of California unless they're from California did you miss?

You're confusing residency with home of record.

Call_me_Tom
03-31-2010, 5:59 AM
I'm not sure how it works in other branches of service but a few years ago the Marine Corps agreed to follow all local laws for areas their bases are located in. It was at this point the Corps required all vehicles that wished to be used on base had to get their vehicles smogged by Ca. they don't have to register them though. The corps also reports all DUI's that you recieved on base to local PD & DMV.

You may have fallen into a similar case but pertaining too gun laws. I'd check with your base legal.

markw
03-31-2010, 8:00 AM
I'm not sure how it works in other branches of service but a few years ago the Marine Corps agreed to follow all local laws for areas their bases are located in. It was at this point the Corps required all vehicles that wished to be used on base had to get their vehicles smogged by Ca. they don't have to register them though. The corps also reports all DUI's that you recieved on base to local PD & DMV.

You may have fallen into a similar case but pertaining too gun laws. I'd check with your base legal.

Navy Region Southwest requires you to smog your out of state vehicle to get a base decal. California doesn't require it.

When I was in housing, you just had to let housing know about any firearms. Most the housing in SD is off base.

todd2968
03-31-2010, 8:08 AM
If you live in the state and your permanent duty station is in the state you are legally a resident of California. The only way you would not be a resident of the state your permanent duty station is in is if you commute from another state every day.

I have an Illinois drivers license, my car tags are Illinois, and my insurance Illinois, I vote in Illinois, but due to my PCS orders I am a legal resident of California, if you don't believe me look at the bottom left corner of all the gun applications I've filled out since I've been here.
Been here 4 months and have filed out 4 applications.
Yes I'm admitting I might have a problem

markw
03-31-2010, 8:17 AM
You're confusing residency with home of record.

When were you in? Can you cite a reference?

I'm not confusing anything. I did 20 years in the Navy, and never changed my residency to where I was stationed. To do that you had to go down and register to vote, then take it to personnel and have them change it. Ie, you have to intentionally change your residency. Just because you're stationed somewhere for 2-3 years doesn't make you a resident of that state. Military members stationed in a state don't become residents unless they stay here after discharge. That's when all the just moved to California stuff kicks in like registering vehicles and firearms.

Here's how California views it.

(o) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (n):
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), residency shall be
determined in the same manner as is the case for establishing
residency pursuant to Section 12505 of the Vehicle Code.
(2) In the case of members of the Armed Forces of the United
States, residency shall be deemed to be established when he or she
was discharged from active service in this state.

Here's the military non resident form we fill out for cars registered here.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg5045.pdf

Here's the dmv site for military.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/militaryvr.htm

markw
03-31-2010, 8:20 AM
I have an Illinois drivers license, my car tags are Illinois, and my insurance Illinois, I vote in Illinois, but due to my PCS orders I am a legal resident of California, if you don't believe me look at the bottom left corner of all the gun applications I've filled out since I've been here.
Been here 4 months and have filed out 4 applications.
Yes I'm admitting I might have a problem

And being from IL, you don't pay any state income tax, let alone CA state income tax. You didn't show an HSC, just flashed your Military ID. CA only knows about the firearms you purchased here. You're allowed to purchase firearms here based on your PCS orders. You can still purchase in IL based on being a resident of IL.

ChuckBooty
03-31-2010, 8:30 AM
Also...since my command has the vast majority of it's members living in off-base housing (I actually haven't spoken with anyone IN my command that even KNOWS that Parks has military housing) I don't see them having an interest in getting into my place. And there ARE NO MP's in my housing complex. I'm safe.

But I do have some trepidation in going into housing after owning a home for the last five years. But the PCS has caused me to do a short-sale on my current home. After all the hassle for the last five years I'm kinda looking forward to not having a utility bill, a water bill, gas, electric, heating, cooling, lawn-care, etc. Well worth the BAH, in my opinion. And tac the lack of property taxes on top of all that and I'm WELL ahead.

So they can write whatever silly little rule they want in their renters handbook (notice that the renters handbook that I linked didn't have any military or government letter head) and I'll go ahead and do what I think is right.

Call_me_Tom
03-31-2010, 9:17 AM
And there ARE NO MP's in my housing complex.

Trust me, I'm on your side but the MP's can come from anywhere. They don't have to actually work your housing area.

Hell, I had a Marine mouth off, threaten and disrespect me at a court hearing. It was his hearing and I was representing the command. I called our command and let them know what had happend and the MP's from base drove to the (civilian) courthouse and arrested him in the parking lot.