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ca1903
03-26-2010, 4:27 PM
I just have to vent here.

Talked to a co-worker from Mexico (he does have a PhD from MIT) about the drug problem along the border. He certainly was very offended about the drug problems there because we have a market in US (I'm 200% against drug, including the coming recreational use of Marijuana). BUT he continued blaming the drug cartel buying automatic weapon from gun shops in US.

That's when I blew up telling him how badly he is mis-informed as he has no experience with any firearm. Buying a M2 Browning machine gun, or grenade launcher, from a US FFL? I told him he is just crazy and not knowing the law. I bet $100 taking him to any gun shop locally and see what the treatment he gets asking to buy an automatic weapon.

He is finally in doubt about his information. He is just a young kid from an well-off family of Mexico city. So well protected that he does not know how vicious the society can be!

I'm just so offended by such mis-information, although we all know that for long time!

B.D.Dubloon
03-26-2010, 4:35 PM
You got issues. Why would you "blow up" over this? You should be concerned about gaining self control before you tackle one person's insignificant misconception about US gun law/culture.

bomb_on_bus
03-26-2010, 4:39 PM
take him to a CA gunshop especially................ he would probably :rofl:

paul0660
03-26-2010, 4:39 PM
I'm just so offended by such mis-information,

Why offended? It isn't personal. I live in one of the bluest counties on the planet, and get a chance now and then to educate people who, like your co-worker, are misinformed and/or predisposed to a particular opinion. Educate yourself so that you can make a convincing argument and try to win some of them over.

The Director
03-26-2010, 4:42 PM
You got issues. Why would you "blow up" over this? You should be concerned about gaining self control before you tackle one person's insignificant misconception about US gun law/culture.

'Cause he blew a gasket! He flipped out, trashed the place, beat the crap out of the stupid kid, all the while trying to explain to him how rational we gun owners are!!!!!!:p

bussda
03-26-2010, 4:44 PM
Do not be offended. Ignorance comes in all shapes, sizes and colors. I am still amazed how many people are ignorant of this with many years of life, and much education.

Take it as an opportunity to educate someone. They may end up becoming a firearm enthusiast instead of thinking firearm owners are overemotional people tending to shoot first instead of the reality that they tend to be more levelheaded then the population in general.

Think about it. A firearm owner knows the implications of using a firearm, non owners don't really think about it.

POLICESTATE
03-26-2010, 4:45 PM
He is finally in doubt about his information. He is just a young kid from an well-off family of Mexico city. So well protected that he does not know how vicious the society can be!

Yeah, well-off family and well protected? Sounds like a target for a ransom kidnapping to me. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes in Mexico.

YubaRiver
03-26-2010, 5:13 PM
Take him shooting. Once people understand how it all works, they tend to
lose a lot of fear.

Merc1138
03-26-2010, 5:16 PM
I've gotten into conversations about the US guns getting sold to mexican drug cartels before, my response usually involves something along the lines of "ok... so what shop is it they're cheaply buying fully automatic weapons? I'd like to buy some." and of course "uhh, you do realize mexico has a southern border, and south of that border are a lot of countries with a lot of weapons and a whole lot less restrictions than we have, right?"

They usually stop and think about how silly of an idea it is that drug cartels are getting guns from the US, and either agree with me that it's BS, or at least have enough doubt that they say something like "hmm, that may be the case, need some evidence to support that but it's plausible", which is of course better than their original idiotic television fed train of thought.

Roadrunner
03-26-2010, 5:26 PM
I just have to vent here.

Talked to a co-worker from Mexico (he does have a PhD from MIT) about the drug problem along the border. He certainly was very offended about the drug problems there because we have a market in US (I'm 200% against drug, including the coming recreational use of Marijuana). BUT he continued blaming the drug cartel buying automatic weapon from gun shops in US.

That's when I blew up telling him how badly he is mis-informed as he has no experience with any firearm. Buying a M2 Browning machine gun, or grenade launcher, from a US FFL? I told him he is just crazy and not knowing the law. I bet $100 taking him to any gun shop locally and see what the treatment he gets asking to buy an automatic weapon.

He is finally in doubt about his information. He is just a young kid from an well-off family of Mexico city. So well protected that he does not know how vicious the society can be!

I'm just so offended by such mis-information, although we all know that for long time!

You could have taken him here (http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/) and freaked him out.

P08
03-26-2010, 6:38 PM
Take him to the Knob Creek shoot, he will grow a pair and change his mind about everything.

Blue
03-26-2010, 6:51 PM
Have him try and buy a gun for himself, and see what he says afterwards.

guntntteacher
03-26-2010, 7:22 PM
Have him try and buy a gun for himself, and see what he says afterwards.

NAh better not suggest that the questions on the DROS will prove his point that anyone can get a gun. Though most get caught in background, the fact that they ask those questions will give the lib ammo. Better yet ask him to buy an automatic in mexico and giv you the serial number, more likely its US issue to mexico in arms deal years back. hmmmmmm:eek:

jdberger
03-26-2010, 7:39 PM
In the event the OP calms down and wants to rationally change minds...

Drug cartels' new weaponry means war (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-mexico-arms-race15-2009mar15,0,229992.story)

The Feb. 21 attack on police headquarters in coastal Zihuatanejo, which injured four people, fit a disturbing trend of Mexico's drug wars. Traffickers have escalated their arms race, acquiring military-grade weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, armor-piercing munitions and antitank rockets with firepower far beyond the assault rifles and pistols that have dominated their arsenals.

Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semiauto- matic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California.

The proliferation of heavier armaments points to a menacing new stage in the Mexican government's 2-year-old war against drug organizations, which are evolving into a more militarized force prepared to take on Mexican army troops, deployed by the thousands, as well as to attack each other.

These groups appear to be taking advantage of a robust global black market and porous borders, especially between Mexico and Guatemala. Some of the weapons are left over from the wars that the United States helped fight in Central America, U.S. officials said.

corrupt
03-26-2010, 9:10 PM
Well, everyone says that 90-95% of the weapons are being bought out of gun shops legally. How much of that is fud or not I dunno, but I've heard it from everyone, including a masked interviewed cartel member on AC360 ;)

Also, come on, the demand is a huge part of the equation. If it were the other way around, I would guarantee you that we'd be having a problem running drugs in to Mexico. People will always break the law to make money if the money outweighs the risk, and boy does the money outweigh the risk. If there was no demand here, they wouldn't be smuggling drugs our way. If there were no drugs from Mexico, we'd get them some other way.

fred40
03-26-2010, 9:20 PM
You'll find the nicest colt 38 supers in Mexico. Some are way too exagerrated and some are collection pieces

Nor-Cal
03-26-2010, 9:26 PM
Jst take ur time and inform him as well with others.

CCWFacts
03-26-2010, 9:33 PM
The cartels in Mexico have revenues of BILLIONS of dollars. They will get guns from somewhere, or else they will manufacture them themselves.

As long as the cash flow is there, they will continue to have a supply of guns, and Mexico will continue to be a war zone, regardless of what we do in this country.

I can't imagine anything you can't buy if you have billions of dollars. They could buy any type of weapon imaginable. The only reason they don't have fighter planes and tanks is because those things wouldn't serve any of their needs.

The one thing we can do that would completely end the cartel's violence would be legalize drugs, let pharmaceutical companies here supply it at free market competitive prices, and the cartels will cease to exist. But currently that is beyond the realm of what Americans would consider doing, so the War on Drugs will continue to ensure that drug profits are enormous and the cartels continue to flourish.

audiophil2
03-26-2010, 9:42 PM
Take him to the Knob Creek shoot, he will grow a pair and change his mind about everything.

Big Sandy is this weekend and only a state away.

SJgunguy24
03-26-2010, 10:06 PM
I took a buddy from work shooting and he went from tepid to gunny in one range day.
Well one day at work we were talking about hog hunting and I said I'd bring my AK so I don't have to work a bolt for a follow up shot. One guy starts into me with the whole MG crap and how am I gonna eat it if I pump 500 rounds into it with the squeeze of a trigger.

I didn't even get a chance to open my mouth before my newly minted gunny buddy lays into this dude like he slapped his mother. He told him to put down the video games and take a sniff of the real world. Then calmly explains the differences between an AW and a semi auto like my AK's. My buddy is 4 years older then me but man was I proud.

That is what a large part of being a CGN member is to change public opinions and the attitudes of the misinformed.

Carlosa
03-26-2010, 11:11 PM
I know how you feel, i lived in Mexico city as a kid, and moved to el paso texas when i was a teen. el paso for those who don't know borders the city of juarez Mexico which is now the most violent city in the world.

a few months ago i went back to el paso for my 10 year high school reunion, and it was very sad to see how naive and miss informed both my family and friends from el paso were about the hole situation in Mexico (guns/violence).
People in El Paso are so brained washed by the local media and politicians that most gun stores have been forced to stop selling Ar rifles and other EBRs.

As for the specific attitude of the guy you had issue with...
i see this all the time, Mexican people like me, that have migrated, been educated, work and live in the u.s, yet still have some romantic ideal of how much better and pure the mother land is. i blame it mostly to a lack of identity, and true disconnect to Mexican culture. many of times i found this kind of folks talking about how terrible aspects of American life is, yet the choose to live and work here.

i had a kid just like this one tell me.. that if it wasn't for Americans need to have tanks and nuke's that Mexico wouldn't be in the place it in right now (I just laughed this kid was not listener :D).

anyway just remember that there are other Mexicans and People of Mexican descent in the u.s, that consider themselves American first, are smart enough to see that Mexico's problems come from years and years of corruptions, and are also proud owners of firearms and practitioners of the second amendment.

By the way, the argument that i have had the most success with at educating my friends and family is the following....

I tell them how the limited supply of fully automatic weapons, such as an AK-47, in the states where it is legal for citizen with a federal license to own automatic weapons has driven the cost to over $15,000 per rifle.

i let tell them that the actual cost of this rifles from the country that make them to organizations that can buy them in bulk is under $500.

I then pose the question..
why would a global criminal organization, with unlimited budget, control of landing strips, ports, roads, that has infiltrated almost all branches of government spend $15,000 for a single rifle and run the risck of losing their investment by going through US customs, when they can buy 30 of the same rifles for the same price and have them shipped to their backyards from places like Russia, China, South America, North Korea etc, with out the risk of being intercepted?

most people get it once you take the guns out of the argument, and you presented them with the economics of such a business :)

cheers,
LOs.

jdberger
03-26-2010, 11:41 PM
^^
Bingo.

Carlosa
03-27-2010, 12:36 AM
Well, everyone says that 90-95% of the weapons are being bought out of gun shops legally. How much of that is fud or not I dunno, but I've heard it from everyone, including a masked interviewed cartel member on AC360 ;)

Also, come on, the demand is a huge part of the equation. If it were the other way around, I would guarantee you that we'd be having a problem running drugs in to Mexico. People will always break the law to make money if the money outweighs the risk, and boy does the money outweigh the risk. If there was no demand here, they wouldn't be smuggling drugs our way. If there were no drugs from Mexico, we'd get them some other way.

The 90 percent stat is a twisted factoid.
Only 10 percent of the fire arms siezed in Mexico were reported of that 10 percent 90 percent were marked made in the USA, so they assume that they came from the US.

Meplat
03-27-2010, 12:41 AM
I have at least half a dozen weapons in my safe that could be full auto before sun up (it's 12.45 AM) using only the most rudimentary tools found in most american homes. Tell him to get over it.

Carlosa
03-27-2010, 12:42 AM
Well, everyone says that 90-95% of the weapons are being bought out of gun shops legally. How much of that is fud or not I dunno, but I've heard it from everyone, including a masked interviewed cartel member on AC360 ;)

Also, come on, the demand is a huge part of the equation. If it were the other way around, I would guarantee you that we'd be having a problem running drugs in to Mexico. People will always break the law to make money if the money outweighs the risk, and boy does the money outweigh the risk. If there was no demand here, they wouldn't be smuggling drugs our way. If there were no drugs from Mexico, we'd get them some other way.

Here's the real deal ;)
Myth: The United States is the source of 90% of dr ug syndicate guns in Mexico

Fact: This is an often misquoted data point from t he BATFE, who said 90% of the
firearms that have been interdicted in transport t o Mexico or recovered in Mexico came
from the United States. Thus the 90% number includ es only the firearms American and
Mexican police stop in transport.70

Fact: The original number was derived from the num ber of firearms successfully traced, not the total number of firearms. For 2007-2008, Mexican officials recovered
approximately 29,000 firearms from crime scenes an d asked for BATFE traces of 11,000. Of those, the BATFE could trace roughly 6,000 of which 5,114 wer e confirmed to have come from the United States. T hus, 83% of the crime guns recovered in Mexico hav e not been or cannot be traced to America.71

sources....

70 Mexico's Massive Illegal weapons coming from Ch ina and the U.S., American Chronicle, March 14, 20 09

71 The Myth of 90 Percent, Fox News, April 2, 2009 , BATFE data distilled by William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott

72 Southwest Border Region--Drug Transportation and Homeland Security Issues, National Drug Intelligence Center, October 2007

73 Drug cartels' new weaponry means war, Los Angel es Times, March 15, 2009

74 The Myth of 90 Percent, William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott, Fox News, April 2, 2009

75 Senate Committee Judiciary, William Hoover, istant Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Fir earms, March 17, 2009

Meplat
03-27-2010, 12:50 AM
Thank you.;)


I know how you feel, i lived in Mexico city as a kid, and moved to el paso texas when i was a teen. el paso for those who don't know borders the city of juarez Mexico which is now the most violent city in the world.

a few months ago i went back to el paso for my 10 year high school reunion, and it was very sad to see how naive and miss informed both my family and friends from el paso were about the hole situation in Mexico (guns/violence).
People in El Paso are so brained washed by the local media and politicians that most gun stores have been forced to stop selling Ar rifles and other EBRs.

As for the specific attitude of the guy you had issue with...
i see this all the time, Mexican people like me, that have migrated, been educated, work and live in the u.s, yet still have some romantic ideal of how much better and pure the mother land is. i blame it mostly to a lack of identity, and true disconnect to Mexican culture. many of times i found this kind of folks talking about how terrible aspects of American life is, yet the choose to live and work here.

i had a kid just like this one tell me.. that if it wasn't for Americans need to have tanks and nuke's that Mexico wouldn't be in the place it in right now (I just laughed this kid was not listener :D).

anyway just remember that there are other Mexicans and People of Mexican descent in the u.s, that consider themselves American first, are smart enough to see that Mexico's problems come from years and years of corruptions, and are also proud owners of firearms and practitioners of the second amendment.

By the way, the argument that i have had the most success with at educating my friends and family is the following....

I tell them how the limited supply of fully automatic weapons, such as an AK-47, in the states where it is legal for citizen with a federal license to own automatic weapons has driven the cost to over $15,000 per rifle.

i let tell them that the actual cost of this rifles from the country that make them to organizations that can buy them in bulk is under $500.

I then pose the question..
why would a global criminal organization, with unlimited budget, control of landing strips, ports, roads, that has infiltrated almost all branches of government spend $15,000 for a single rifle and run the risck of losing their investment by going through US customs, when they can buy 30 of the same rifles for the same price and have them shipped to their backyards from places like Russia, China, South America, North Korea etc, with out the risk of being intercepted?

most people get it once you take the guns out of the argument, and you presented them with the economics of such a business :)

cheers,
LOs.

B Strong
03-27-2010, 7:45 AM
I just have to vent here.

Talked to a co-worker from Mexico (he does have a PhD from MIT) about the drug problem along the border. He certainly was very offended about the drug problems there because we have a market in US (I'm 200% against drug, including the coming recreational use of Marijuana). BUT he continued blaming the drug cartel buying automatic weapon from gun shops in US.

That's when I blew up telling him how badly he is mis-informed as he has no experience with any firearm. Buying a M2 Browning machine gun, or grenade launcher, from a US FFL? I told him he is just crazy and not knowing the law. I bet $100 taking him to any gun shop locally and see what the treatment he gets asking to buy an automatic weapon.

He is finally in doubt about his information. He is just a young kid from an well-off family of Mexico city. So well protected that he does not know how vicious the society can be!

I'm just so offended by such mis-information, although we all know that for long time!

And the moment you did so, you lost the debate.

You may or may not be able to educate this fella, but in the future, don't let the ignorance, willfull or otherwise, of someone debating on behalf of gun control make you lose your cool.

Once that happens, the opportunity to educate has passed.

Mulay El Raisuli
03-27-2010, 9:34 AM
The cartels in Mexico have revenues of BILLIONS of dollars. They will get guns from somewhere, or else they will manufacture them themselves.

As long as the cash flow is there, they will continue to have a supply of guns, and Mexico will continue to be a war zone, regardless of what we do in this country.

I can't imagine anything you can't buy if you have billions of dollars. They could buy any type of weapon imaginable. The only reason they don't have fighter planes and tanks is because those things wouldn't serve any of their needs.

The one thing we can do that would completely end the cartel's violence would be legalize drugs, let pharmaceutical companies here supply it at free market competitive prices, and the cartels will cease to exist. But currently that is beyond the realm of what Americans would consider doing, so the War on Drugs will continue to ensure that drug profits are enormous and the cartels continue to flourish.


Actually, I read in the paper that SecState Clinton has just acknowledged that our appetite for drugs is part of the problem. Yes, that's a NO DUH! admission, but it might be the start of us finally taking the logical step of legalizing drugs.

Which would, as you say, end the problem once & for all.


The Raisuli

jdberger
03-27-2010, 10:10 AM
Here's the real deal ;)
Myth: The United States is the source of 90% of dr ug syndicate guns in Mexico

Fact: This is an often misquoted data point from t he BATFE, who said 90% of the
firearms that have been interdicted in transport t o Mexico or recovered in Mexico came
from the United States. Thus the 90% number includ es only the firearms American and
Mexican police stop in transport.70

Fact: The original number was derived from the num ber of firearms successfully traced, not the total number of firearms. For 2007-2008, Mexican officials recovered
approximately 29,000 firearms from crime scenes an d asked for BATFE traces of 11,000. Of those, the BATFE could trace roughly 6,000 of which 5,114 wer e confirmed to have come from the United States. T hus, 83% of the crime guns recovered in Mexico hav e not been or cannot be traced to America.71

sources....

70 Mexico's Massive Illegal weapons coming from Ch ina and the U.S., American Chronicle, March 14, 20 09

71 The Myth of 90 Percent, Fox News, April 2, 2009 , BATFE data distilled by William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott

72 Southwest Border Region--Drug Transportation and Homeland Security Issues, National Drug Intelligence Center, October 2007

73 Drug cartels' new weaponry means war, Los Angel es Times, March 15, 2009

74 The Myth of 90 Percent, William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott, Fox News, April 2, 2009

75 Senate Committee Judiciary, William Hoover, istant Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Fir earms, March 17, 2009

Great post. Could you edit it to include the link, please?

1JimMarch
03-27-2010, 1:43 PM
Anybody who thinks banning pot is a good idea is far more seriously misinformed than the gent from Mexico described in the first post.

Colt-45
03-27-2010, 3:54 PM
May I remind them, there were civil wars in el salvador, nicargua and other central American countries during the 80's. The wars are long over but the guns don't just simply disappear into the air and those countries are 3rd world countries corruption is worse than in Mexico. That's where some of the fully automatic machine guns, grenades and bazookas come from. Plus, Mexican cartels are rich, what makes us think they can't get full auto machine guns and explosives from Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia???

Now, as for Colt 1911's yes they all do come from the US. Some imported legally before 1976(that's when they started writing their gun laws) and some imported illegaly 1976-->present.

Meplat
03-27-2010, 5:00 PM
including a masked interviewed cartel member on AC360 ;)
.

WOW! Now there's a reliable, verifiable source!:rolleyes:

turbosbox
03-27-2010, 5:03 PM
and look how beautifully gun control laws are working there. they take the guns out of the hands of the lawful citizens, and allow the criminal gangs to run wild. what a formula for success.

vantec08
03-27-2010, 5:27 PM
The worst ignorance comes from those who dont know that they dont know. People who dont know and KNOW they dont know are teachable. Its usually from the "intelligent" and/or "educated". They arent redeemable.

Meplat
03-27-2010, 5:50 PM
It will never happen. Too many people make too much money, on both sides of the law and both sides of the border. That includes pollutions* at the highest levels. The careers of thousands depend on it. It's sick, but that's reality.

* (I miss spelled politicians and that is what the spell checker coughed up, I thought it was apropos so I left it)




Actually, I read in the paper that SecState Clinton has just acknowledged that our appetite for drugs is part of the problem. Yes, that's a NO DUH! admission, but it might be the start of us finally taking the logical step of legalizing drugs.

Which would, as you say, end the problem once & for all.


The Raisuli

Carlosa
03-27-2010, 7:43 PM
Great post. Could you edit it to include the link, please?

http://www.gunfacts.info/
it's a good read for sure :D

Carlosa
03-27-2010, 7:50 PM
Actually, I read in the paper that SecState Clinton has just acknowledged that our appetite for drugs is part of the problem. Yes, that's a NO DUH! admission, but it might be the start of us finally taking the logical step of legalizing drugs.

Which would, as you say, end the problem once & for all.


The Raisuli

I'm not sure it would end it as much as displace it.
If there was no market in the us, the cartells would just flood the market of other countries to create new demand in a different market.
The u.s is not the only place the cartels can sell their product it's just the closest :D

Meplat
03-27-2010, 8:01 PM
But it's where the money is. If they want to sell in Iran it's fine by me. I'm not trying to solve Mexico's problem.

I'm not sure it would end it as much as displace it.
If there was no market in the us, the cartells would just flood the market of other countries to create new demand in a different market.
The u.s is not the only place the cartels can sell their product it's just the closest :D

Carlosa
03-27-2010, 10:08 PM
But it's where the money is. If they want to sell in Iran it's fine by me. I'm not trying to solve Mexico's problem.

Fair enough :)
I'm just pointing out that there's a very big hole in the argument of ligalisation/end of provision of illigal narcotics putting the cartels out of bussines.
I don't care either way I'm a square so I have no guilt ;)

jdberger
03-27-2010, 11:06 PM
http://www.gunfacts.info/
it's a good read for sure :D

Thanks :rolleyes:

Not so much for my benefit - but for others. My Google-fu is strong. In fact, I wrote a letter to a reporter following a "guns smuggled from the US to Mexico" article in the SF Chronicle that was similar to the above - that generated a correction (and a nice conversation with the reporter).

Anyway, part of our strength is that we provide proof of our assertions to the other side so they can check our sources. That's why I asked for the link.

Finally, in debate - never link to Gunfacts, Guncite the NRA, etc. Find the original article/study/research and link to it. It negates the other side's ability to simply dismiss your facts due to a "biased" source.

Mulay El Raisuli
03-28-2010, 5:00 AM
It will never happen. Too many people make too much money, on both sides of the law and both sides of the border. That includes pollutions* at the highest levels. The careers of thousands depend on it. It's sick, but that's reality.


That was once thought about booze. It wasn't easy, but eventually the 21A did get passed. Medical pot was the nose under the tent. The November election will be Part II.


* (I miss spelled politicians and that is what the spell checker coughed up, I thought it was apropos so I left it)


As well you should have! :rofl2:


The Raisuli

Mulay El Raisuli
03-28-2010, 5:09 AM
I'm not sure it would end it as much as displace it.
If there was no market in the us, the cartells would just flood the market of other countries to create new demand in a different market.
The u.s is not the only place the cartels can sell their product it's just the closest :D


Yes, they can export elsewhere. But, those other countries will have a bright, shining example of what NOT to do (or, what not to keep doing). The rest of the world (apparently) was observant enough to not follow our lead in re the 18A, for example. If they do learn from our example & also legalize the stuff, the cartels will go the way of the bootleggers. All they'll have left to do then is run their sons for president.


The Raisuli

Carlosa
03-28-2010, 7:45 AM
Thanks :rolleyes:

Not so much for my benefit - but for others. My Google-fu is strong. In fact, I wrote a letter to a reporter following a "guns smuggled from the US to Mexico" article in the SF Chronicle that was similar to the above - that generated a correction (and a nice conversation with the reporter).

Anyway, part of our strength is that we provide proof of our assertions to the other side so they can check our sources. That's why I asked for the link.

Finally, in debate - never link to Gunfacts, Guncite the NRA, etc. Find the original article/study/research and link to it. It negates the other side's ability to simply dismiss your facts due to a "biased" source.

sure that is the reason I put the straight sources.
I just sourced gunfacts becouse it has good argumunts that are properly sourced them selfs :)

Carlosa
03-28-2010, 7:54 AM
Yes, they can export elsewhere. But, those other countries will have a bright, shining example of what NOT to do (or, what not to keep doing). The rest of the world (apparently) was observant enough to not follow our lead in re the 18A, for example. If they do learn from our example & also legalize the stuff, the cartels will go the way of the bootleggers. All they'll have left to do then is run their sons for president.


The Raisuli
Well that's not always a good asumption to make.
There are many countries who's culture and goverments are more heavily rooted in fundamental values that would not lign up the legalization of such substances.
We can't expectext the hole world to just model their laws after us
ours. Specialy when their cultural belives can be some times so different.

groats
03-28-2010, 11:23 AM
I don't care much whether drugs are legal or illegal.
What I do want?

I want the US government to drop the price supports for illegal drugs.

We pay millions each year to make sure that the Columbian drug cartels have little to no competition from less dangerous, more honest, people. One might suspect that those cartels might be tempted to show their appreciation by sending gifts to certain politicians, don't you agree? Not that any of our fine politicians would accept such gifts, of course, nor let that influence their votes....

Tenamaxtle
03-28-2010, 2:56 PM
I don't care much whether drugs are legal or illegal.
What I do want?

I want the US government to drop the price supports for illegal drugs.

We pay millions each year to make sure that the Columbian drug cartels have little to no competition from less dangerous, more honest, people. One might suspect that those cartels might be tempted to show their appreciation by sending gifts to certain politicians, don't you agree? Not that any of our fine politicians would accept such gifts, of course, nor let that influence their votes....

So true...

corrupt
03-28-2010, 3:56 PM
Here's the real deal ;)
Myth: The United States is the source of 90% of dr ug syndicate guns in Mexico

Fact: This is an often misquoted data point from t he BATFE, who said 90% of the
firearms that have been interdicted in transport t o Mexico or recovered in Mexico came
from the United States. Thus the 90% number includ es only the firearms American and
Mexican police stop in transport.70

Fact: The original number was derived from the num ber of firearms successfully traced, not the total number of firearms. For 2007-2008, Mexican officials recovered
approximately 29,000 firearms from crime scenes an d asked for BATFE traces of 11,000. Of those, the BATFE could trace roughly 6,000 of which 5,114 wer e confirmed to have come from the United States. T hus, 83% of the crime guns recovered in Mexico hav e not been or cannot be traced to America.71

sources....

70 Mexico's Massive Illegal weapons coming from Ch ina and the U.S., American Chronicle, March 14, 20 09

71 The Myth of 90 Percent, Fox News, April 2, 2009 , BATFE data distilled by William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott

72 Southwest Border Region--Drug Transportation and Homeland Security Issues, National Drug Intelligence Center, October 2007

73 Drug cartels' new weaponry means war, Los Angel es Times, March 15, 2009

74 The Myth of 90 Percent, William La Jeunesse and Maxim Lott, Fox News, April 2, 2009

75 Senate Committee Judiciary, William Hoover, istant Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & Fir earms, March 17, 2009

Great info.

WOW! Now there's a reliable, verifiable source!:rolleyes:

Thanks, captain obvious! ;)

Carlosa
03-28-2010, 5:32 PM
By the way I don't know how many of you listen to "intelligance squared" the oxford style debate show(NPR). But a few weeks back they had the motion "is America to blame for the drug war in Mexico"

here's the link

http://intelligencesquaredus.org/index.php/past-debates/america-is-to-blame-for-mexicos-drug-war/

it's a great debate.... I hope some of you listen to it and share your impressions :)

Carlosa
03-28-2010, 5:34 PM
By the way the NRA representative kicked ***!!

Kerplow
03-28-2010, 7:47 PM
Fact: The original number was derived from the num ber of firearms successfully traced, not the total number of firearms. For 2007-2008, Mexican officials recovered
approximately 29,000 firearms from crime scenes an d asked for BATFE traces of 11,000. Of those, the BATFE could trace roughly 6,000 of which 5,114 wer e confirmed to have come from the United States. T hus, 83% of the crime guns recovered in Mexico hav e not been or cannot be traced to America.71


im confused here. why were only 11000 of those 29000 asked for a trace? so basically it says that of those 11000 ~46% were traced back to america?

HowardW56
03-28-2010, 7:49 PM
im confused here. why were only 11000 of those 29000 asked for a trace? so basically it says that of those 11000 ~46% were traced back to america?


The rest were imported from elsewhere...

Kerplow
03-28-2010, 7:56 PM
The rest were imported from elsewhere...

so basically it comes down to 5114 of 29000 came from the US which is basically 18%?

KylaGWolf
03-28-2010, 8:11 PM
I know how you feel, i lived in Mexico city as a kid, and moved to el paso texas when i was a teen. el paso for those who don't know borders the city of juarez Mexico which is now the most violent city in the world.

a few months ago i went back to el paso for my 10 year high school reunion, and it was very sad to see how naive and miss informed both my family and friends from el paso were about the hole situation in Mexico (guns/violence).
People in El Paso are so brained washed by the local media and politicians that most gun stores have been forced to stop selling Ar rifles and other EBRs.

As for the specific attitude of the guy you had issue with...
i see this all the time, Mexican people like me, that have migrated, been educated, work and live in the u.s, yet still have some romantic ideal of how much better and pure the mother land is. i blame it mostly to a lack of identity, and true disconnect to Mexican culture. many of times i found this kind of folks talking about how terrible aspects of American life is, yet the choose to live and work here.

i had a kid just like this one tell me.. that if it wasn't for Americans need to have tanks and nuke's that Mexico wouldn't be in the place it in right now (I just laughed this kid was not listener :D).

anyway just remember that there are other Mexicans and People of Mexican descent in the u.s, that consider themselves American first, are smart enough to see that Mexico's problems come from years and years of corruptions, and are also proud owners of firearms and practitioners of the second amendment.

By the way, the argument that i have had the most success with at educating my friends and family is the following....

I tell them how the limited supply of fully automatic weapons, such as an AK-47, in the states where it is legal for citizen with a federal license to own automatic weapons has driven the cost to over $15,000 per rifle.

i let tell them that the actual cost of this rifles from the country that make them to organizations that can buy them in bulk is under $500.

I then pose the question..
why would a global criminal organization, with unlimited budget, control of landing strips, ports, roads, that has infiltrated almost all branches of government spend $15,000 for a single rifle and run the risck of losing their investment by going through US customs, when they can buy 30 of the same rifles for the same price and have them shipped to their backyards from places like Russia, China, South America, North Korea etc, with out the risk of being intercepted?

most people get it once you take the guns out of the argument, and you presented them with the economics of such a business :)

cheers,
LOs.

A friend of ours and her mom are from Mexico. As the daughter puts it...the normal citizen cannot have guns ask them how well that works for them. She is pro gun pro second amendment and anti FUD that the media puts out. She considers herself American although she still has family in Mexico and says she is so glad when she comes back here. I think a big part of the FUD is the media on both sides of the border regarding the whole "gun" thing.

dustoff31
03-28-2010, 8:35 PM
im confused here. why were only 11000 of those 29000 asked for a trace?

Probably because the others were instantly recognized as blackmarketed/lost/stolen from the Mexican military/police.

1JimMarch
03-28-2010, 8:50 PM
I'm in southern Arizona. It's well known that SOME guns and ammo are indeed flowing south to Mexico from US retail channels.

However, the guns in question are not what are feeding the drug wars down there. The guns in question are almost always either .380 autos, .38Spl revolvers or .36cal open-top percussion Colt clones (1851 type, or Remmies in .36 are highly prized).

You can't find a percussion .36 for love or money down here. We know full well what's happening. They're going to Mexico legally as front-stuffers and down south they're being fitted with homemade .38Spl cylinders and modified hammers. The resulting guns "work" to a given value of "work"...for a while. Long enough to sight in and scare off a mugger with.

.380 ammo supplies are bad all over but they're terrible down here near the Mexican border. Why? Because in Mexico, some guns are "more illegal" than others. It's actually barely possible to get a permit for a .380 or .38Spl handgun down there, or if you're caught with one illegally it's not as bad because they're "not military calibers or power levels". You'll often get away with paying a small bribe.

All of these guns (and the ammo for 'em) are going down there as last-ditch self defense weapons for people who are trying to stay "mostly legal" - in other words, not drug runners or other forms of criminals.

These aren't the guns feeding the violence.

dustoff31
03-28-2010, 9:05 PM
However, the guns in question are not what are feeding the drug wars down there. The guns in question are almost always either .380 autos, .38Spl revolvers or .36cal open-top percussion Colt clones (1851 type, or Remmies in .36 are highly prized).

You can't find a percussion .36 for love or money down here. We know full well what's happening. They're going to Mexico legally as front-stuffers and down south they're being fitted with homemade .38Spl cylinders and modified hammers. The resulting guns "work" to a given value of "work"...for a while. Long enough to sight in and scare off a mugger with.


Interesting. I've been told by LEOs that pretty much any stolen small caliber pistol, at least in AZ, is almost certainly headed south for all the reasons you mention. But I hadn't heard of the percussion pistols being such "hot" items.

Carlosa
03-28-2010, 10:29 PM
you are correct the Mexican constitution does allow citizens to own firearms for self defense. Citizens are limited to handguns of calibers no larger than 38. And rifles which are not of military calibers.

I'm in southern Arizona. It's well known that SOME guns and ammo are indeed flowing south to Mexico from US retail channels.

However, the guns in question are not what are feeding the drug wars down there. The guns in question are almost always either .380 autos, .38Spl revolvers or .36cal open-top percussion Colt clones (1851 type, or Remmies in .36 are highly prized).

You can't find a percussion .36 for love or money down here. We know full well what's happening. They're going to Mexico legally as front-stuffers and down south they're being fitted with homemade .38Spl cylinders and modified hammers. The resulting guns "work" to a given value of "work"...for a while. Long enough to sight in and scare off a mugger with.

.380 ammo supplies are bad all over but they're terrible down here near the Mexican border. Why? Because in Mexico, some guns are "more illegal" than others. It's actually barely possible to get a permit for a .380 or .38Spl handgun down there, or if you're caught with one illegally it's not as bad because they're "not military calibers or power levels". You'll often get away with paying a small bribe.

All of these guns (and the ammo for 'em) are going down there as last-ditch self defense weapons for people who are trying to stay "mostly legal" - in other words, not drug runners or other forms of criminals.

These aren't the guns feeding the violence.

cortayack
03-28-2010, 11:09 PM
I know how you feel, i lived in Mexico city as a kid, and moved to el paso texas when i was a teen. el paso for those who don't know borders the city of juarez Mexico which is now the most violent city in the world.

a few months ago i went back to el paso for my 10 year high school reunion, and it was very sad to see how naive and miss informed both my family and friends from el paso were about the hole situation in Mexico (guns/violence).
People in El Paso are so brained washed by the local media and politicians that most gun stores have been forced to stop selling Ar rifles and other EBRs.

As for the specific attitude of the guy you had issue with...
i see this all the time, Mexican people like me, that have migrated, been educated, work and live in the u.s, yet still have some romantic ideal of how much better and pure the mother land is. i blame it mostly to a lack of identity, and true disconnect to Mexican culture. many of times i found this kind of folks talking about how terrible aspects of American life is, yet the choose to live and work here.

i had a kid just like this one tell me.. that if it wasn't for Americans need to have tanks and nuke's that Mexico wouldn't be in the place it in right now (I just laughed this kid was not listener :D).

anyway just remember that there are other Mexicans and People of Mexican descent in the u.s, that consider themselves American first, are smart enough to see that Mexico's problems come from years and years of corruptions, and are also proud owners of firearms and practitioners of the second amendment.

By the way, the argument that i have had the most success with at educating my friends and family is the following....

I tell them how the limited supply of fully automatic weapons, such as an AK-47, in the states where it is legal for citizen with a federal license to own automatic weapons has driven the cost to over $15,000 per rifle.

i let tell them that the actual cost of this rifles from the country that make them to organizations that can buy them in bulk is under $500.

I then pose the question..
why would a global criminal organization, with unlimited budget, control of landing strips, ports, roads, that has infiltrated almost all branches of government spend $15,000 for a single rifle and run the risck of losing their investment by going through US customs, when they can buy 30 of the same rifles for the same price and have them shipped to their backyards from places like Russia, China, South America, North Korea etc, with out the risk of being intercepted?

most people get it once you take the guns out of the argument, and you presented them with the economics of such a business :)

cheers,
LOs.

Interesting you said that, because the Lady next door, who is Mexican, tried to tell me that all the Mexican gangs up here in the States are not Mexicans but other Hispanic or Latin people....:rolleyes:

Not saying all Mexicans are Gangbangers.... or all hispanic gangs are all Mexican....Just incase what I said wasn't PC......;)

ChrisO
03-29-2010, 12:56 AM
STUPID a** title. (MEXICAN CO WORKER) what does it matter? I have heard white guys blame the US for the same thing (our FFL's selling MG's to the drug cartel) Wich is bull. There are stupid people out there regardless of race... quit crying and b******g about it and inform him.

Carlosa
03-29-2010, 1:30 AM
Interesting you said that, because the Lady next door, who is Mexican, tried to tell me that all the Mexican gangs up here in the States are not Mexicans but other Hispanic or Latin people....:rolleyes:

Not saying all Mexicans are Gangbangers.... or all hispanic gangs are all Mexican....Just incase what I said wasn't PC......;)

lol*
yeah I've seen this too, and the reverse as well, sense Mexicans make up majority of the Hispanic population here in California we often trump / suppress the voices culture and heritage of other Hispanic groups such as Salvadorian Cubans Dominicans etc... We tend to pursue social causes As if we were the only brown people in town. But I guess this is common practice of majorities within a minority.*

Mulay El Raisuli
03-29-2010, 4:39 AM
Well that's not always a good asumption to make.
There are many countries who's culture and goverments are more heavily rooted in fundamental values that would not lign up the legalization of such substances.
We can't expectext the hole world to just model their laws after us
ours. Specialy when their cultural belives can be some times so different.


I'm not saying that it would be automatic. Or that it would happen overnight in any event. But, there are people looking at the experience of Portugal & thinking that this is the way to go. Giving them an ever bigger success story can only help to spread the sanity.

But, even if no other country buys into the sanity, this country would still be better off. To NOT spend BILLIONS on a fool's quest would do wonders for this country. Having no market here would also mean no need for 'turf wars' here either, which would severely weaken our gangs. Yes, other countries could ignore all of this, but that would be their worry & not ours.


The Raisuli

whitey
03-29-2010, 6:08 AM
I just have to vent here.

Talked to a co-worker from Mexico (he does have a PhD from MIT) !

Mexico, PHD, MIT Must be affirmative action move, An everyone wonders way the dot com crashed. If M.I.T get watered down any more we are going to have big problems.

ca1903
03-29-2010, 9:50 AM
Gee! I did not expect to see so many posts.

I went to SJ range and had a good time during the weekend. But the pollens got me in a most terrible allergy attack; turned the beautiful weekend to a miserable one!

Thanks for many good advices and inputs. The kid is decently smart, but naive - just too young. My upset was toward the propaganda from the administration, not at the poor kid. He was so offended that Mexico becomes the drug cartel country - due to the market demand of the drug in US.

Ya, winning people over is the key goal. Under his H1 visa, although I can take him to range, he can't yet own any firearm as I understand. So we'll see when he is up to have fun with the firework!

KALIDAWG8996
03-29-2010, 11:03 AM
Mexico, PHD, MIT Must be affirmative action move, An everyone wonders way the dot com crashed. If M.I.T get watered down any more we are going to have big problems.

??? If you ever went to any college or university, you would see that many foreigners are invited to study in America from all over the world. Don't hate.

bomb_on_bus
03-29-2010, 11:38 AM
??? If you ever went to any college or university, you would see that many foreigners are invited to study in America from all over the world. Don't hate.

"don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his mockasins".............. good quote hanging up the wall in our living room but yet that train of thought seems to evade so many.