PDA

View Full Version : Is this pepper spray legal to carry?


BlackDrop50
03-25-2010, 5:14 PM
http://www.copquest.com/21-1500.jpg
http://www.copquest.com/21-1500-head-r.jpg


In the instructions it says WARNING: This may be classified as an impact device.

However this thing is kinda too small to be a club or baton.

Aleksandr Mravinsky
03-25-2010, 5:39 PM
I have been wondering the same thing. I don't see how it would be illegal. Looks to be the size of a kubaton. Unless kubatons are illegal, I don't see where this would be illegal either (insofar as being an 'impact device').

I, too, am wondering about pepper spray laws. I will be carrying a knife soon (Spyderco Persistence), but not for defence. What are the laws regarding pepper spray? Age limits, prohibited places, et cetera.

yelohamr
03-25-2010, 5:55 PM
It has a keyring, just like my kubaton. I believe it is legal.

Bearclaw
03-25-2010, 5:55 PM
I have been wondering the same thing. I don't see how it would be illegal. Looks to be the size of a kubaton. Unless kubatons are illegal, I don't see where this would be illegal either (insofar as being an 'impact device').

I, too, am wondering about pepper spray laws. I will be carrying a knife soon (Spyderco Persistence), but not for defence. What are the laws regarding pepper spray? Age limits, prohibited places, et cetera.

If this little device were illegal, and if a kubaton were illegal, then it would be illegal to be in possesion of any little twig or rock you picked up off the ground.

inbox485
03-25-2010, 6:05 PM
Kubatons are a 12020(1) violation (can be considered either a billy, or metal knuckles). In order to avoid the 12020 violation their needs to be a lawful use other than use which gets it the 12020 prohibition and that use needs to be reasonable under the circumstances you possessed it under. Since it is legal to carry OC spray in CA (12403.7), that would be fine. Same goes for things like aluminum flashlights. You can also claim the kubaton is your favorite prostate massager and see how long it takes a cop to hand it back.

The basic guideline is don't carry anything that doesn't have a lawful use related to your circumstances at the time of possession.

It has recently become a fuzzy area. For example, carrying a padlock on a chain with no bike has long been ruled a billy / sap. But carrying a bike petal loose in your pocket was recently ruled not to be metal knuckles despite it having the same rationale as the lock on the chain. I haven't had a chance to look up and read the recent case, but the summary looks like it may have changed the criteria at least somewhat.

inbox485
03-25-2010, 6:06 PM
If this little device were illegal, and if a kubaton were illegal, then it would be illegal to be in possesion of any little twig or rock you picked up off the ground.

If you carry a rock or a stick with the intent to use it as a weapon, your right it is illegal.

Bearclaw
03-25-2010, 6:07 PM
seems like none of these "criteria" ever have any logic or consistencty to them anyway

inbox485
03-25-2010, 6:47 PM
I was able to find the metal knuckle case. Metal knuckles now have to be wearable rather than simply holdable which was the long standing interpretation. The news article made it sound like an alternative use rationale which is why I was confused by it. It is just a nit picking with the words case.

Kubatons are therefore not metal knuckles but can still be considered billy clubs AFAIK.

If it helps anyway, there is no reason to carry a "Kubaton" when you can just carry a "tac light" with a "glass breaking bezel". Not even TSA will stop you from carrying a flashlight.

inbox485
03-25-2010, 6:49 PM
seems like none of these "criteria" ever have any logic or consistencty to them anyway

The law was written to ban common "thug" hand weapons both deliberately manufactured and improvised. The criteria reflects that intent. I think the law is stupid, but it is reasonably well defined. If you are carrying a hand weapon, there is a good chance it is regulated by 12020. Welcome to CA.

yelohamr
03-25-2010, 8:14 PM
The kubaton I've carried the last 25 + years, has a keyring on it, so it has a purpose other than as a defensive weapon. I carry it in my waistband with just the keys visible.

Aleksandr Mravinsky
03-25-2010, 8:17 PM
Thanks for clearing up the kubaton issue. You said it is legal to carry OC spray. Does that mean legal for everyone, or only people over the age of 18 without a criminal record?

inbox485
03-25-2010, 8:46 PM
CA PC 12043.7:
Notwithstanding any other law, any person may purchase,
possess, or use tear gas and tear gas weapons for the projection or
release of tear gas if the tear gas and tear gas weapons are used
solely for self-defense purposes, subject to the following
requirements:
(a) No person convicted of a felony or any crime involving an
assault under the laws of the United States, the State of California,
or any other state, government, or country or convicted of misuse of
tear gas under subdivision (g) shall purchase, possess, or use tear
gas or tear gas weapons.
(b) No person who is addicted to any narcotic drug shall purchase,
possess, or use tear gas or tear gas weapons.
(c) No person shall sell or furnish any tear gas or tear gas
weapon to a minor.
(d) No person who is a minor shall purchase, possess, or use tear
gas or tear gas weapons.
(e) (1) No person shall purchase, possess, or use any tear gas
weapon that expels a projectile, or that expels the tear gas by any
method other than an aerosol spray, or that contains more than 2.5
ounces net weight of aerosol spray.
(2) Every tear gas container and tear gas weapon that may be
lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant to this section
shall have a label that states: "WARNING: The use of this substance
or device for any purpose other than self-defense is a crime under
the law. The contents are dangerous--use with care."
(3) After January 1, 1984, every tear gas container and tear gas
weapon that may be lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant
to this section shall have a label that discloses the date on which
the useful life of the tear gas weapon expires.
(4) Every tear gas container and tear gas weapon that may be
lawfully purchased pursuant to this section shall be accompanied at
the time of purchase by printed instructions for use.
(f) Effective March 1, 1994, every tear gas container and tear gas
weapon that may be lawfully purchased, possessed, and used pursuant
to this section shall be accompanied by an insert including
directions for use, first aid information, safety and storage
information, and explanation of the legal ramifications of improper
use of the tear gas container or tear gas product.
(g) Any person who uses tear gas or tear gas weapons except in
self-defense is guilty of a public offense and is punishable by
imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months, or two or three years
or in a county jail not to exceed one year or by a fine not to exceed
one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment,
except that, if the use is against a peace officer, as defined in
Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2,
engaged in the performance of his or her official duties and the
person committing the offense knows or reasonably should know that
the victim is a peace officer, the offense is punishable by
imprisonment in a state prison for 16 months or two or three years or
by a fine of one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and
imprisonment.


CA PC 12043.8:
(a) Notwithstanding paragraph (4) of subdivision (a) of
Section 12403.7, a minor who has attained the age of 16 years may
purchase and possess tear gas or tear gas weapons pursuant to this
chapter if he or she is accompanied by a parent or guardian, or has
the written consent of his or her parent or guardian.
(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of Section
12403.7, a person may sell or furnish tear gas or a tear gas weapon
to a minor who has attained the age of 16 years and who is
accompanied by a parent or guardian, or who presents a statement of
consent signed by the minor's parent or guardian.
(c) Any civil liability of a minor arising out of his or her use
of tear gas or a tear gas weapon other than for self-defense is
imposed upon the person, parent, or guardian who signed the statement
of consent specified in subdivision (b) who shall be jointly and
severally liable with the minor for any damages proximately resulting
from the negligent or wrongful act or omission of the minor in the
use of the tear gas or a tear gas weapon.

So, it would be illegal for somebody to sell or furnish (give, lend, trade, etc.) to a minor under 16, and a minor aged 16 or 17 needs written parent permission and or parental supervision.

Nate
03-25-2010, 8:47 PM
I was able to find the metal knuckle case. Metal knuckles now have to be wearable rather than simply holdable which was the long standing interpretation. The news article made it sound like an alternative use rationale which is why I was confused by it. It is just a nit picking with the words case.

Kubatons are therefore not metal knuckles but can still be considered billy clubs AFAIK.

If it helps anyway, there is no reason to carry a "Kubaton" when you can just carry a "tac light" with a "glass breaking bezel". Not even TSA will stop you from carrying a flashlight.

I am confused. How can the Kubaton be considered a billy club? I understand the use of it, but just trying to relate it to a billy club. Isn't is just a piece of plastic connected to a key chain.

So are the legal, or illegal?

Thanks

BlackDrop50
03-26-2010, 9:47 AM
Well I thought it was legal because it is #1 OC spray, couldn't find anything in the law that was specific about "impact weapons", only clubs.


I will also be using it as a keyring besides OC so I guess it should be OK.

I sometimes carry a flashlight at night but not always at daytime. I just need OC because I have had to deal with more dirty mentally unstable aggressive bums than usual and I don't want their possibly mutagen infested blood on me.

inbox485
03-26-2010, 12:28 PM
I am confused. How can the Kubaton be considered a billy club? I understand the use of it, but just trying to relate it to a billy club. Isn't is just a piece of plastic connected to a key chain.

So are the legal, or illegal?

Thanks

In general they are just long enough that you can swing with them (and having trained with them, I know techniques that involve swinging them), so while obviously not a "club" they could potentially be ruled a billy. I've yet to find any cases on kubatons/kobutans/Ywaras so AFAIK it is untested waters and I have a strong preference towards not being a test case. So, there is not a simple legal not legal answer, but my opinion is that it is an unacceptable risk given the availability of equivalent alternatives.

H.M.
03-26-2010, 12:28 PM
(e) (1) No person shall purchase, possess, or use any tear gas
weapon that ....contains more than 2.5
ounces net weight of aerosol spray.

Is this correct? Big containers of OC are illegal for citizens?

DVLDOC
03-26-2010, 12:50 PM
WTF! everything seems to be illegal in CA :mad:

:rant:

CEDaytonaRydr
03-26-2010, 1:22 PM
Is this correct? Big containers of OC are illegal for citizens?

Yep...

Which also means the those big bottles of bear repellant that could be used in lieu of firearms in state parks are also illegal.

...and since you can't carry a gun in CA State Parks, I guess you'll have to just duke it out with that Black Bear when you go hiking. :rolleyes:

Btown
03-26-2010, 1:27 PM
I work security at an office complex in the bay area. We're not issued anything - meaning no weapons allowed. If somebody were to act up to us, it would be either run or use your fists. My boss said if we wanna buy ourselves over the counter pepper spray, so long as it's not mace/teargas, he would be cool as long as we kept it on the DL - so that makes me think pepper spray might not look PC, but it isn't classed as a weapon, at least in my territory. Better yet, he said we should buy walkie talkies that are heavy like a friggin brick. We could use those to bust the crap out of trespassers, etc., and they wouldn't even be considered a weapon if we got busted for excess force.

inbox485
03-26-2010, 5:08 PM
Well I thought it was legal because it is #1 OC spray, couldn't find anything in the law that was specific about "impact weapons", only clubs.


I will also be using it as a keyring besides OC so I guess it should be OK.

I sometimes carry a flashlight at night but not always at daytime. I just need OC because I have had to deal with more dirty mentally unstable aggressive bums than usual and I don't want their possibly mutagen infested blood on me.

It is absolutely legal. It is an OC keychain that happens to be durable. That is it as far as PC12020 is concerned. PC 12020 would only apply if you had an object with no lawful purpose to have possession of the item.

Just as a rule of thumb so you don't have to research the individual terms in 12020 (most are archaic out dated slang terms) pretty much any melee type weapon that looks thuggish, ninja, or improvised with junk around the house or old sporting equipment is prohibited under 12020 unless you have a plausible use for it under the circumstances you possessed it. A common example is a baseball bat. It is only a club if their is no plausible reason for you to be in possession of a baseball bat to be used as a baseball bat. In the case if the OC device, it could only be a club if you emptied it, and then continued to carry it around to use as a club. As long as you carry it for the lawful purpose of using it as an OC canister your ability to use it as a club in a weapon of opportunity role is irrelevant.

That all said, I would rather a 2 AA LED light in the 100 lumen range and a separate 2.5 oz OC canister. The light is usually more than enough to keep non aggressive weirdos at a distance, and you won't need to justify self defense afterward. They also serve as kobutans, and you can even carry them in airports (the light - not the OC)

inbox485
03-26-2010, 5:26 PM
I work security at an office complex in the bay area. We're not issued anything - meaning no weapons allowed. If somebody were to act up to us, it would be either run or use your fists. My boss said if we wanna buy ourselves over the counter pepper spray, so long as it's not mace/teargas, he would be cool as long as we kept it on the DL - so that makes me think pepper spray might not look PC, but it isn't classed as a weapon, at least in my territory. Better yet, he said we should buy walkie talkies that are heavy like a friggin brick. We could use those to bust the crap out of trespassers, etc., and they wouldn't even be considered a weapon if we got busted for excess force.

I'm not sure what you mean by OTC pepper spray but not mace/teargas. Mace is just a name brand, and tear gas is one of many generic names. Perhaps he just means no foggers or grenades.

As for the walkie talkie, you can get charged with assault with a deadly weapon for taking a walkie talkie to somebody w/o justification. The point of the 80's brick walkie talkie is to avoid a 12020 charge, not to reduce excessive force liability. Hit somebody in the head with one and it had better have been to save your life or you are in a heap of trouble.

Depending on your budget, consider:
http://www.amazon.com/Kimber-Guardian-Angel-Black-Sngl/dp/B0021XAQSK/
http://www.amazon.com/Mace-Pepper-Gun/dp/B003BX2HI6/ref=sr_1_24?ie=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1269652520&sr=8-24
http://www.itaser.com/?__utma=1.320559897.1269652658.1269652658.12696526 58.1&__utmb=1.2.10.1269652658&__utmc=1&__utmx=-&__utmz=1.1269652658.1.1.utmcsr=google|utmccn=%28or ganic%29|utmcmd=organic|utmctr=c2%20taser&__utmv=-&__utmk=25141050

All are concealable so you can be discrete about it.

Nate
03-26-2010, 7:52 PM
It is absolutely legal. It is an OC keychain that happens to be durable. That is it as far as PC12020 is concerned. PC 12020 would only apply if you had an object with no lawful purpose to have possession of the item.

Just as a rule of thumb so you don't have to research the individual terms in 12020 (most are archaic out dated slang terms) pretty much any melee type weapon that looks thuggish, ninja, or improvised with junk around the house or old sporting equipment is prohibited under 12020 unless you have a plausible use for it under the circumstances you possessed it. A common example is a baseball bat. It is only a club if their is no plausible reason for you to be in possession of a baseball bat to be used as a baseball bat. In the case if the OC device, it could only be a club if you emptied it, and then continued to carry it around to use as a club. As long as you carry it for the lawful purpose of using it as an OC canister your ability to use it as a club in a weapon of opportunity role is irrelevant.

That all said, I would rather a 2 AA LED light in the 100 lumen range and a separate 2.5 oz OC canister. The light is usually more than enough to keep non aggressive weirdos at a distance, and you won't need to justify self defense afterward. They also serve as kobutans, and you can even carry them in airports (the light - not the OC)

I don't get it. You stated earlier that the Kubaton may or may not be legal. But now your stating OC on the key chain is legal. Its the same thing yet metal, and has OC. So are you saying that if it is full of OC, it is fine and not considered a club. If it is empty, then is is considered a club??

inbox485
03-26-2010, 11:20 PM
I don't get it. You stated earlier that the Kubaton may or may not be legal. But now your stating OC on the key chain is legal. Its the same thing yet metal, and has OC. So are you saying that if it is full of OC, it is fine and not considered a club. If it is empty, then is is considered a club??

What I'm saying is that 12020 charges have more to do with the purpose for possessing the item at the time you get caught with it than the potential the item has. The aluminum flashlight example is probably the closest comparison. You can have a flashlight. The flashlight can be made of aluminum. The possibility of the flashlight being used as a club is irrelevant, because you possess it as a flashlight.

So, for the OC keychain, you are allow to have oc spray (generally). An OC container can be made of metal. The possibility of the OC container being used as a club is irrelevant because you possess it as an OC container.

Keep in mind that half the stuff in your house could be a 12020 violation under the right circumstances. So it isn't the potential, it is the primary intent.

GrizzlyGuy
03-27-2010, 6:53 AM
Yep...

Which also means the those big bottles of bear repellant that could be used in lieu of firearms in state parks are also illegal.

...and since you can't carry a gun in CA State Parks, I guess you'll have to just duke it out with that Black Bear when you go hiking. :rolleyes:

Many of the large cans of bear spray (> 2.5 Oz) are legal, as there is an exception for them in the Agricultural Code. See here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=3462950&postcount=29).

SJgunguy24
03-27-2010, 7:15 AM
Yep...

Which also means the those big bottles of bear repellant that could be used in lieu of firearms in state parks are also illegal.

...and since you can't carry a gun in CA State Parks, I guess you'll have to just duke it out with that Black Bear when you go hiking. :rolleyes:

Depends on the purpose of why your carrying the large bear spray. If your packing that stuff in the forest or on your way to a hike on Bear country then it's legal. Your using it as Bear spray.

Now if your walking down Santa Clara and First street in downtown San Jose while carrying one of those large cans, that is illegal. The 2.5oz work great, I carry the stream cans. It shoots a stream about 5-6 feet and it can be aimed.

El Gato
03-27-2010, 9:03 AM
the ASP pepper spray is widely sold here in Bako...
I have 3 or four around the house...
they are cool because they can be re-loaded...
and I suggest them to clients for the pepper spray aspect...and if I had to use it as an impact weapon... well the exigency of circs would likely qualify...but I carry it as pepper....etc.. as has been said...am thinking in Kern that If I had to tell the jury it was hitting the guy with the little stick...or a magazine load of 185 gr golden saber +p's... the jury might...might...this being Kern... find it excusable...esp. if I gave him/her/it the full dose of pepper spray first....

and +1 on carrying flashlights on the plane... last time the tsa guy asked me why i needed three... cause I'm blind in one eye and have trouble in the dark...and Oh Yeah... batteries go dead...:43::43::43:

BlackDrop50
03-27-2010, 9:55 AM
and +1 on carrying flashlights on the plane... last time the tsa guy asked me why i needed three... cause I'm blind in one eye and have trouble in the dark...and Oh Yeah... batteries go dead...:43::43::43:


LOL

swhatb
03-27-2010, 3:31 PM
Good write up...

Kubatons are a 12020(1) violation (can be considered either a billy, or metal knuckles). In order to avoid the 12020 violation their needs to be a lawful use other than use which gets it the 12020 prohibition and that use needs to be reasonable under the circumstances you possessed it under. Since it is legal to carry OC spray in CA (12403.7), that would be fine. Same goes for things like aluminum flashlights. You can also claim the kubaton is your favorite prostate massager and see how long it takes a cop to hand it back.

The basic guideline is don't carry anything that doesn't have a lawful use related to your circumstances at the time of possession.

It has recently become a fuzzy area. For example, carrying a padlock on a chain with no bike has long been ruled a billy / sap. But carrying a bike petal loose in your pocket was recently ruled not to be metal knuckles despite it having the same rationale as the lock on the chain. I haven't had a chance to look up and read the recent case, but the summary looks like it may have changed the criteria at least somewhat.

SteveH
03-27-2010, 4:10 PM
http://www.copquest.com/21-1500.jpg
http://www.copquest.com/21-1500-head-r.jpg


In the instructions it says WARNING: This may be classified as an impact device.

However this thing is kinda too small to be a club or baton.

Does it have a serial number & manufacturers name? if not then CPC 12422 presumes you removed such markings and possession of same is a felony.

thefurball
03-27-2010, 4:33 PM
If you are worried about this being legal, carry a can of oven cleaner.

No law against oven cleaner.

Same result except the blindness is permanent, not temporary. :cheers2:

ElvenSoul
03-27-2010, 4:40 PM
I have been trained in Pepper Spray use by the nice folks at Saber Red. The stuff they use for Animal Control is considerably weaker than the stuff you use in self defense, and because of that they are allowed to sell to the public in bigger canisters. Back to the original poster that device is perfectly legal and a laughing stock in Security and LE Circles. The spray inside is about the weakest they dare sell. Do yourself a favor and go to a Uniform Shop or Online Uniform Supply and buy yourself Saber Red or MK III Pepper Spray in the small or medium sized container. Make sure it is at least 10% Capacium (peppers). All the other brands and junk out there do is get good people hurt. I got turned on to Saber Red by a Prison Guard who told me how they just show it to inmates and most of them surrender. I have taken in the face as part of training and will honestly tell you I never want to do that again. I have taken other brands of pepper spray, OC, Tear Gas, Mace before and they where nothing compared to Saber Red.

inbox485
03-27-2010, 4:57 PM
Depends on the purpose of why your carrying the large bear spray. If your packing that stuff in the forest or on your way to a hike on Bear country then it's legal. Your using it as Bear spray.

Now if your walking down Santa Clara and First street in downtown San Jose while carrying one of those large cans, that is illegal. The 2.5oz work great, I carry the stream cans. It shoots a stream about 5-6 feet and it can be aimed.

While I'm not confident enough to say you are mistaken, I'm not too sure about your conclusion. For your consideration:

CA PC 12041:
"Tear gas" as used in this chapter shall apply to and
include all liquid, gaseous or solid substances intended to produce
temporary physical discomfort or permanent injury through being
vaporized or otherwise dispersed in the air, but does not apply to,
and shall not include, any substance registered as an economic poison
as provided in Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 12751) of Division
7 of the Agricultural Code provided that such substance is not
intended to be used to produce discomfort or injury to human beings.


The bear spray definitely qualifies as a "substance registered as an economic poison". And by design, it is "not intended to be used to produce discomfort or injury to human beings." Now the reason, i would say you might be right is if the courts decide that "intended" refers to intent of possession (similar to 12020 rulings) rather than intent of manufacture.

ElvenSoul
03-27-2010, 5:02 PM
The bear stuff is so weak. You would cause someone more discomfort by hitting them with the can. I believe those are 3 to 5% Capacium. Most Self Defense stuff is 8 to 10%. Police issue 10 to 12.5%

inbox485
03-27-2010, 5:09 PM
Does it have a serial number & manufacturers name? if not then CPC 12422 presumes you removed such markings and possession of same is a felony.

:bofud: Read that one again. It isn't a violation if the SN was never there. It is up to the manufacturer and vendor to comply with that law. Given that it comes from ASP, I'd imagine they know enough to serialize the refill cartridges.

If you are worried about this being legal, carry a can of oven cleaner.

No law against oven cleaner.

Same result except the blindness is permanent, not temporary. :cheers2:

I'd imagine CA PC 12401 could easily be construed to include oven cleaner if carried on your person in public. That and the whole excessive force, the civil liability, the fact that 2.5oz of good pepper spray works bloody fine enough, the fact that the can of oven cleaner is huge and clumsy...

Meplat
03-27-2010, 5:30 PM
Totally off topic. But your avatar reminds me of the really sad ending of "Electraglide In Blue". Gives me chills.:(

Yep...

Which also means the those big bottles of bear repellant that could be used in lieu of firearms in state parks are also illegal.

...and since you can't carry a gun in CA State Parks, I guess you'll have to just duke it out with that Black Bear when you go hiking. :rolleyes:

fleegman
03-27-2010, 5:46 PM
If you are worried about this being legal, carry a can of oven cleaner.
No law against oven cleaner.

Read the can.... bet it says something like "it is a violation of federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling", or some such.

Frankly, I carry what I choose to carry, not what Barbara Boxer Et. Al. say I can carry.

I learned all I needed to know about California's anti-defense laws from this ad in CTD a few years ago. It was an ad for pepper spray which declared:

SELF-DEFENSE PEPPER SPRAY.
RECOMMENDED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT.
(not legal for California residents to purchase or own)

lead slinger
03-27-2010, 5:47 PM
I have been trained in Pepper Spray use by the nice folks at Saber Red. The stuff they use for Animal Control is considerably weaker than the stuff you use in self defense, and because of that they are allowed to sell to the public in bigger canisters. Back to the original poster that device is perfectly legal and a laughing stock in Security and LE Circles. The spray inside is about the weakest they dare sell. Do yourself a favor and go to a Uniform Shop or Online Uniform Supply and buy yourself Saber Red or MK III Pepper Spray in the small or medium sized container. Make sure it is at least 10% Capacium (peppers). All the other brands and junk out there do is get good people hurt. I got turned on to Saber Red by a Prison Guard who told me how they just show it to inmates and most of them surrender. I have taken in the face as part of training and will honestly tell you I never want to do that again. I have taken other brands of pepper spray, OC, Tear Gas, Mace before and they where nothing compared to Saber Red.

I heard that INFERNO that cold steel sells is the worst,so Iam told.

Meplat
03-27-2010, 5:58 PM
I am totally confused by all the trade names and legal mish-mash. Is there anything effective that can be legally carried by a 13 year old girl?


The bear stuff is so weak. You would cause someone more discomfort by hitting them with the can. I believe those are 3 to 5% Capacium. Most Self Defense stuff is 8 to 10%. Police issue 10 to 12.5%

Aleksandr Mravinsky
03-27-2010, 8:48 PM
I am totally confused by all the trade names and legal mish-mash. Is there anything effective that can be legally carried by a 13 year old girl?

If I understand what has been said in this topic correctly, then a can of OC spray is illegal for anyone under sixteen, and anyone over sixteen and under eighteen without parent consent. Kubatons are illegal. Small, kubaton-sized flashlights are fine.

And I believe there is no age limit for carrying knives, but they are not very effective for self-defence and would be very suspicious for a thirteen-year-old girl to be carrying one.

Pens are also fine; sort of like a pointy-stabby kubaton that draws less attention.

inbox485
03-27-2010, 9:41 PM
I am totally confused by all the trade names and legal mish-mash. Is there anything effective that can be legally carried by a 13 year old girl?

As far as the various tear gases, there is nothing prohibiting a 13 year old from possessing tear gas, but it is illegal to sell or furnish it to a 13 year old. There are not however safe storage laws for tear gas, so if an adult sets it somewhere careless and the 13 year picks it up a carries it off, no law has been broken. minors under 16 cannot purchase or possess.

The exact same goes for stun guns / tasers (CA PC 12651).

There are no age related restrictions on knives that I know of.

Also pertinent to most minors is California Education Code, Sec. 48915:

(a) Except as provided in subdivisions (c) and (e), the principal or the superintendent of schools shall recommend the expulsion of a pupil for any of the following acts committed at school or at a school activity off school grounds, unless the principal or superintendent finds that expulsion is inappropriate, due to the particular circumstance:

(1) Causing serious physical injury to another person, except in self-defense.

(2) Possession of any knife or other dangerous object of no reasonable use to the pupil.

(3) Unlawful possession of any controlled substance listed in Chapter 2 (commencing with Section 11053) of Division 10 of the Health and Safety Code, except for the first offense for the possession of not more than one avoirdupois ounce of marijuana, other than concentrated cannabis.

(4) Robbery or extortion.

(5) Assault or battery, as defined in Sections 240 and 242 of the Penal Code, upon any school employee.

I'd be willing to bet that any of the above would be deemed dangerous objects, and self defense is not a reasonable use in the eyes of this state's indoctrination institution. And to answer your next question, educators on the whole would much rather risk a 13 year old girl getting kidnapped, raped and murdered than to see her grow up thinking she has a right to self defense.

Aleksandr Mravinsky
03-27-2010, 10:14 PM
As far as the various tear gases, there is nothing prohibiting a 13 year old from possessing tear gas, but it is illegal to sell or furnish it to a 13 year old.

Wait, so the 'and possess' from this bit:

(a) Notwithstanding paragraph (4) of subdivision (a) of
Section 12403.7, a minor who has attained the age of 16 years may
purchase and possess tear gas or tear gas weapons pursuant to this
chapter if he or she is accompanied by a parent or guardian, or has
the written consent of his or her parent or guardian.

is just reaffirming that a minor over the age of 16 with written consent from the parents may possess OC spray, but does not restrict those under 16 from possessing it otherwise?

inbox485
03-27-2010, 10:35 PM
Wait, so the 'and possess' from this bit:



is just reaffirming that a minor over the age of 16 with written consent from the parents may possess OC spray, but does not restrict those under 16 from possessing it otherwise?

Your right. I just caught that and fixed my post.

Nate
03-28-2010, 12:17 AM
What I'm saying is that 12020 charges have more to do with the purpose for possessing the item at the time you get caught with it than the potential the item has. The aluminum flashlight example is probably the closest comparison. You can have a flashlight. The flashlight can be made of aluminum. The possibility of the flashlight being used as a club is irrelevant, because you possess it as a flashlight.

So, for the OC keychain, you are allow to have oc spray (generally). An OC container can be made of metal. The possibility of the OC container being used as a club is irrelevant because you possess it as an OC container.

Keep in mind that half the stuff in your house could be a 12020 violation under the right circumstances. So it isn't the potential, it is the primary intent.


I think I understand your point. As with all Ca. laws, its not clear.

But if you a carry a piece of plastic that helps you maintain control of your keys as to not lose them, it is ok. But if you call it a Kubaton, it may be considered an illegal weapon.

I think Ca. law makers need to pull their head out of their a**!! What else is new!!

2Bear
03-28-2010, 2:37 AM
and +1 on carrying flashlights on the plane... last time the tsa guy asked me why i needed three... cause I'm blind in one eye and have trouble in the dark...and Oh Yeah... batteries go dead...:43::43::43:

Think I'll slip my 6 D-Cell Mag Light in the umbrella pocket of my carry on...

http://www.maglite.com/product.asp?psc=6DCELL

http://www.maglite.com/images/pdmain_dcell.jpg

These are really handy when "walking the dog", by the way.