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View Full Version : Home invasion in Sacramento, posed as US Marshalls


Maestro Pistolero
03-23-2010, 12:54 PM
This type of home invasion makes things particularly difficult for home defense, and for future officer safety. This is one reason I believe that dynamic entry should be reserved only for a very narrow scope of arrests. Evidence preservation alone should not generally, IMO, justify such tactics.

A home invader screaming "POLICE", or "US MARSHALLS" cannot automatically be trusted. If police call ahead, no matter what, I will cooperate, even put on a pot of coffee, but I am going to want to be certain they are, in fact police, before I relinquish my right to self defense. This might be very difficult to do in the fog of sleep and with only a split second to decide.
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/crime/archives/home-invasion-robbery/

ZombieTactics
03-23-2010, 1:00 PM
Wow, the thought of experiencing something like this is chilling. I can't imagine any circumstance where anyone breaking down my door will not be met will force upon entering.

There really need to be some pretty clear protocols for dynamic entry.

Crovax
03-23-2010, 1:15 PM
I will always remember one of my best friend's dad's stories.

When he was six years old he heard someone in the house, got his pellet gun and went downstairs. He saw a man holding a gun and from behind him said 'Drop it'. The man said 'I'm a police officer', and my buddy's dad just said 'Badge'. Only after seeing the badge did he lower his pellet gun.

If a 6 year old is smart enough to do this, everyone should be. Obviously pointing a gun at police officers entering your house isn't the best idea, but asking for identification is a must.

JDoe
03-23-2010, 1:32 PM
These stories come up every so often. Some people say they would fire on anyone busting their door down and then the LEOs chime in and say that they would be dead if they did.

Speaking out of ignorance of the reasons for these types of entries I do agree that they should be used in only the most extreme cases.

Well trained and well prepared law abiding citizens may not have the luxury of time before reacting to an apparent home invasion by fake cops who later turn out to be real. Oh and not all home owners who resist an apparent home invasion with lethal force wind up dead. Tragically, sometimes the LEOs get shot and killed as well.

Jicko
03-23-2010, 1:32 PM
Wow, the thought of experiencing something like this is chilling. I can't imagine any circumstance where anyone breaking down my door will not be met will force upon entering.

There really need to be some pretty clear protocols for dynamic entry.

Easy for you to say on the internet..... but I don't think you would have much chance if they breach your door with C4 or even a shotgun... and then flashbanging their way in.... :eek:

onikage
03-23-2010, 1:36 PM
Lol. Well at that point they very well are probably law enforcement and using force was never a good idea then. ;)

MT1
03-23-2010, 1:38 PM
I will always remember one of my best friend's dad's stories.

When he was six years old he heard someone in the house, got his pellet gun and went downstairs. He saw a man holding a gun and from behind him said 'Drop it'. The man said 'I'm a police officer', and my buddy's dad just said 'Badge'. Only after seeing the badge did he lower his pellet gun.

If a 6 year old is smart enough to do this, everyone should be. Obviously pointing a gun at police officers entering your house isn't the best idea, but asking for identification is a must.

Very real looking badges can be bought online without too much trouble - you can't memorize the exact look of every "real" badge out there. The only way to really know is to call the police department and see if they have officers at your residence.

POLICESTATE
03-23-2010, 1:41 PM
People who impersonate a LEO during robberies should be mandatory death sentence. They screw with the fabric of society when they do this.

Aces and 8s
03-23-2010, 1:44 PM
eff that you knock first, I look threw peep hole, you get let in at my discretion.

Come in busting my door down, my gun is drawn.

I have no reason for the police to just be stomping my door down so I wouldnt believe that bit ofr one second. I better be seeing some ID and warrants.

Aces and 8s
03-23-2010, 1:45 PM
Easy for you to say on the internet..... but I don't think you would have much chance if they breach your door with C4 or even a shotgun... and then flashbanging their way in.... :eek:

Ok thats all fine, cus what BG has access to that stuff?

Those tatics scream LEO

Casual_Shooter
03-23-2010, 1:48 PM
It appears from the article that the bad guys knocked first.

Not sure what I'd do. I always look through the peep-hole. If I saw what appeared to be LEO, I'd open the door.

ZombieTactics
03-23-2010, 1:53 PM
Wow, the thought of experiencing something like this is chilling. I can't imagine any circumstance where anyone breaking down my door will not be met will force upon entering.

I should be more clear. I mean - of course - "unless I am certain they are LE". I have no intention of suggesting irresponsible behavior or suggesting and attitude of "shoot first, figure it out later".

JDoe
03-23-2010, 2:39 PM
Ok thats all fine, cus what BG has access to that stuff?

Those tatics scream LEO

Apparently anyone.

_rtzMQC2hF4

geeknow
03-23-2010, 2:54 PM
I dont speak to strangers....period.

Now, once your identity has been conclusively established, you are no longer a stranger.

However, validation is a must....and I'm the one doing the 'validating'.

This one will get me going every time.

Me... "who are you?"

stranger... "i'm with ..."

Me.. "I didnt ask you who you were with."

...sound of door closing...

end of conversation.

I have a 'no soliciting' sign on my door for just that reason....

geeknow
03-23-2010, 2:56 PM
If I saw what appeared to be LEO, I'd open the door.

...and that is how they get you...

If LEO shows up at your door, they will have checked in with someone first. A genuine LEO will never be mad at you for verifying their creds.

Decoligny
03-23-2010, 3:05 PM
eff that you knock first, I look threw peep hole, you get let in at my discretion.

Come in busting my door down, my gun is drawn.

I have no reason for the police to just be stomping my door down so I wouldnt believe that bit ofr one second. I better be seeing some ID and warrants.

When they accidentally type 321 Shady Lane on the warrant, instead of 321 Shady Drive (the real bad guy lives there), that is enough of a reason for the police to just be "accidentally" stomping your door down.

OlderThanDirt
03-23-2010, 3:30 PM
At 1 AM I would simply 1) arm myself, 2) tell the perps to hang on a minute while I put on my pants, and then 3) call 911 and politely ask if they have officers dispatched to my address. I'm not going to rely on whether or not I think the officers are legitimate, or if their badge and ID are real. There are a lot of officers that, at least to me, look like dirtbags, especially with shaved heads being so trendy.

magsnubs
03-23-2010, 3:43 PM
I once dated a girl who's ex was a serial bank robber. One night about 4:00 am, all the doors and windows slammed open, and the room filled with feds! They grabbed me by my hair and dragged me on the floor to the living room. There was like twenty guns in my face, and they all yelled LOUDly throughout. After they got me into the living room, she came in and told them that it wasn't me, they literally leapt to their feet and left. No apology or nothing. They busted her ex the next morning. This all happened so fast, and so dramatically, there was no way I could've drawn on them. I don't care if I had a gun under my pillow, I could never have even raised it.

inbox485
03-23-2010, 3:48 PM
This type of home invasion makes things particularly difficult for home defense, and for future officer safety. This is one reason I believe that dynamic entry should be reserved only for a very narrow scope of arrests. Evidence preservation alone should not generally, IMO, justify such tactics.

A home invader screaming "POLICE", or "US MARSHALLS" cannot automatically be trusted. If police call ahead, no matter what, I will cooperate, even put on a pot of coffee, but I am going to want to be certain they are, in fact police, before I relinquish my right to self defense. This might be very difficult to do in the fog of sleep and with only a split second to decide.
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/crime/archives/home-invasion-robbery/

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

If you are a law abiding citizen, and somebody kicks their way into your house screaming police, assume they are a lying ball of scum bent on killing you and act accordingly. Yes police get wrong addresses, and I'd never want to shoot a real one, but it is their risk when they choose to do no knock entries or when they play the "I knocked twice as the battering ram was swinging" games.

inbox485
03-23-2010, 3:51 PM
I once dated a girl who's ex was a serial bank robber. One night about 4:00 am, all the doors and windows slammed open, and the room filled with feds! They grabbed me by my hair and dragged me on the floor to the living room. There was like twenty guns in my face, and they all yelled LOUDly throughout. After they got me into the living room, she came in and told them that it wasn't me, they literally leapt to their feet and left. No apology or nothing. They busted her ex the next morning. This all happened so fast, and so dramatically, there was no way I could've drawn on them. I don't care if I had a gun under my pillow, I could never have even raised it.

Another reason why I say, if you have a chance to shoot, don't waste it. The real deal generally won't give you that chance.

Glock-matic
03-23-2010, 3:59 PM
Forced entry by police is a tactic that should be outright illegal. it is an accident waiting to happen every time they kick someone's door down. Police officers should also be held accountable for their mistakes in these entries, if you F-up, you go to jail. A LEO should serve the same penalty as anyone else if they knock down the wrong door, hold someone at gunpoint, and otherwise disturb the peace.

wikidklown
03-23-2010, 4:07 PM
Wow, a string of home invasion report right below the article.....

grammaton76
03-23-2010, 4:10 PM
One non-foolproof thing you could do is look for flashing blue lights. LEO-impersonating perps are unlikely to mount those and operate them while doing a home invasion ruse, as they don't want to attract a bunch of side attention. I don't think I've heard of any of these invasions pulling up in a car equipped with the appropriate flashers.

"If you're really a cop, turn on your vehicle's red-and-blue's for a moment."

Maestro Pistolero
03-23-2010, 4:15 PM
One non-foolproof thing you could do is look for flashing blue lights. LEO-impersonating perps are unlikely to mount those and operate them while doing a home invasion ruse, as they don't want to attract a bunch of side attention. I don't think I've heard of any of these invasions pulling up in a car equipped with the appropriate flashers.

"If you're really a cop, turn on your vehicle's red-and-blue's for a moment."

Um, police are NEVER going to broadcast their presence in a dynamic entry by flashing their lights. That would put the officers at risk and ruin the surprise party for all concerned. They are probably not even going top park in front of the house for that same reason.

Jicko
03-23-2010, 4:20 PM
It appears from the article that the bad guys knocked first.

Not sure what I'd do. I always look through the peep-hole. If I saw what appeared to be LEO, I'd open the door.

For legit LEO....

1) Never open, unless you checked with dispatch

2) Never open, even if you have checked with dispatch, since if they have no warrant, they have no business in your house

3) If they have a warrant, let them kick in..... a door is cheap.... and if they got the wrong house, you can sue them for damage...

4) You can always talk to them across the door, if all they want to do is talk...

IMO....



Bad guys don't use a battering ram & flashbangs to get it. They talk their way in like in this case. If a group of guys in Police garb comes to my door threatening this & that, I won't open the door but would call 911 & ask for verification. If it's an actual Police team with a warrant, they'll break the door down no matter what.

+1

Actually.... for some less serious "warrant", they *may* ask first.... but still.... a door is cheap...

WokMaster1
03-23-2010, 4:20 PM
Bad guys don't use a battering ram & flashbangs to get it. They talk their way in like in this case. If a group of guys in Police garb comes to my door threatening this & that, I won't open the door but would call 911 & ask for verification. If it's an actual Police team with a warrant, they'll break the door down no matter what.

grammaton76
03-23-2010, 4:27 PM
Bad guys don't use a battering ram & flashbangs to get it. They talk their way in like in this case. If a group of guys in Police garb comes to my door threatening this & that, I won't open the door but would call 911 & ask for verification.

Right.

Um, police are NEVER going to broadcast their presence in a dynamic entry by flashing their lights. That would put the officers at risk and ruin the surprise party for all concerned. They are probably not even going top park in front of the house for that same reason.

I wasn't talking about a dynamic entry - I'm talking about the scenario above, where an "LEO" is at the door demanding entry. If they claim there's no time for you to dial 911, AND can't flash their lights for you (most likely because they don't have any to flash), there's no way in hades they're actual LEOs.

JeepsRcool
03-23-2010, 5:50 PM
I shudder to think what I would do....If anyone breaks down my door at any time They WILL be met with force till the situation is worked out, if they are indeed police and can provide me with convincing id's then they will be asked to step outside and the terms of their entry will be discussed, if they draw and aim their weapons at me, well bad things will happen, if they wont cooperate then they are assumed to be BG's and will be treated as such, IE if they make any sudden movements its over....No matter who it is they will have an ar in their face....
The military is not allowed to attack civilians, so why are police allowed to attack civilians while acting like the MILITARY?!?!?!? It boggles the mind how these people get away with policies like this and live through the year....
And if the police demand entry to my home the door will already be closed, and if they try to push in, see above.....
I could have sworn there was a site that had a map with botched PARA Military Style raids:rolleyes:
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

Texas Boy
03-23-2010, 6:30 PM
Wow! I never knew home invasion was such a popular crime in the Sac area. Very disturbing. There should be extremely harsh penalties for this type of crime - esp the ones who impersonate officers.

I agree - no knock warrants are a bad idea - unsafe for the occupants and unsafe for the police. Wrong address or bad lead? Doors busted, dogs shot, people traumatized - and that is if all goes smooth.

I would also agree - if someone comes bustin' into your home, shoot if you can - regardless of what they might be yelling or look like. Chances are it isn't the police. And chances are, unless you keep your side arm on your hip at all times when home (and honestly, how many do?), it will be unlikely you can reach your gun, much less aim and shoot. We all need down time, and that happens at home. Which makes a sudden invasion that much harder to respond to. Your are home with your family, not at war.

Now if someone comes to the door - look through the peep hole, and DO NOT OPEN THE DOOR unless you recognize the person. Even if they claim to be the police. If they claim to be the police, ask why they are here, and then call 911 to verify. Obviously, if it is the police, don't let them in without a warrant. And depending on the circumstances, you may or may not want to talk with them.

OleCuss
03-23-2010, 6:51 PM
magsnubs is worth listening to. LEO and military teams which are doing room entry are typically well-trained and you're simply not likely to have a chance to respond with a weapon unless you knew they were coming. Room entry is done fast!

So if someone breaks in, retreat to the interior if you can while preparing to shoot the presumed BG's. But be sure you don't shoot a family member or friend. Too easy to go hair trigger and just shoot anything that comes into sight.

Sometimes the cops just have crappy planning and don't control the area rapidly enough (don't know the layout or there's just no way to insert enough force throughout in the few seconds they've got). Even a convenient closet can be deadly to a cop.

Forced entry should be avoided if possible due to risk to the personnel. And if you have time to shoot them then they're probably not law enforcement and should be ventilated.

AJAX22
03-23-2010, 7:05 PM
Easy for you to say on the internet..... but I don't think you would have much chance if they breach your door with C4 or even a shotgun... and then flashbanging their way in.... :eek:

You ever see what a simple bungee cord does to a dynamic entry?

Its funny to watch....

Standard breeching technique has the guy trained to chuck the flashbang IMMEDIATLY... no checking to see if the door stayed open.

something like this

g92yFFuJD_c

tyrist
03-23-2010, 7:49 PM
When they accidentally type 321 Shady Lane on the warrant, instead of 321 Shady Drive (the real bad guy lives there), that is enough of a reason for the police to just be "accidentally" stomping your door down.


Spoken like somebody who has no idea how warrants are done. A mistype on the warrant is not going to cause an accident since not only do you have to type an address but you have to describe the building, which direction it faces, what architectural feature it has, where the front door is etc.

The breaching warrants are special warrants; they are high risk and require the suspect to have a violent history or gang affiliation.

The way you can know if it's really the police or not...one are you a criminal? If you are not a criminal then the chances of the police showing up at your door are very rare.

The Director
03-23-2010, 7:52 PM
^Okay, you're the cop - tell me how you would've handled the fake US marshalls.

Glock-matic
03-23-2010, 7:55 PM
Spoken like somebody who has no idea how warrants are done. A mistype on the warrant is not going to cause an accident since not only do you have to type an address but you have to describe the building, which direction it faces, what architectural feature it has, where the front door is etc.

The breaching warrants are special warrants; they are high risk and require the suspect to have a violent history or gang affiliation.

The way you can know if it's really the police are not...one are you a criminal? If you are not a criminal then the chances of the police showing up at your door are very rare.

There have been accidents where homeowners have been shot in their own homes because the breeching team entered the wrong house. There is no requirement for surveillance or other means to insure they have the correct house and the correct subject. Run a search on google, if that doesn't make you mad, imagine if it was your house, and it was your dog, wife, or kid on the floor riddled with bullet holes and the cops responsible say OOPS and go home scott free.

tyrist
03-23-2010, 8:06 PM
There have been accidents where homeowners have been shot in their own homes because the breeching team entered the wrong house. There is no requirement for surveillance or other means to insure they have the correct house and the correct subject. Run a search on google, if that doesn't make you mad, imagine if it was your house, and it was your dog, wife, or kid on the floor riddled with bullet holes and the cops responsible say OOPS and go home scott free.

Wrong house or had the suspect moved?
Wrong house or the informant lied?
Landlord put the wrong numbers up? Didn't maintain the proper building numbers?
So many things can go into it I am just stating that making a typo on the warrant is not going to cause the issue it takes a much larger reason. The reason you not only need an address but a complete and thorough description of the property is to stop issues like that.

Glock-matic
03-23-2010, 8:12 PM
Wrong house or had the suspect moved?
Wrong house or the informant lied?
Landlord put the wrong numbers up? Didn't maintain the proper building numbers?
So many things can go into it I am just stating that making a typo on the warrant is not going to cause the issue it takes a much larger reason. The reason you not only need an address but a complete and thorough description of the property is to stop issues like that.

Agreed, if it were up to me, and we all know that anyone on Calguns would qualify for public service, I would require surveillance on the property in question to ensure the suspect is in the house prior to any breeching. Alternatives should be researched prior to launching explosives or going full auto.

AEC1
03-23-2010, 8:20 PM
look just understand that all cops are Andy Griffeth. they are perfect, dont make mistakes. If there was a mistake, we have to forgive them because they risk their lives every day and cannot or should not be held accountable.

However the US military gets charged with brutality for punching a terrorest... gues how much money this Military member gives to LEO foundations and charity. NOTHING!!!!

Meplat
03-23-2010, 8:23 PM
I don't car about a chance, I just want to be able to get off a shot or two.:43:

Easy for you to say on the internet..... but I don't think you would have much chance if they breach your door with C4 or even a shotgun... and then flashbanging their way in.... :eek:

Meplat
03-23-2010, 8:29 PM
It appears from the article that the bad guys knocked first.

Not sure what I'd do. I always look through the peep-hole. If I saw what appeared to be LEO, I'd open the door.

Not me. I will call first. And I want to at least see a cruiser whos livery I recognize.

Meplat
03-23-2010, 8:33 PM
I'm ready to die if they are. Let's do it.

When they accidentally type 321 Shady Lane on the warrant, instead of 321 Shady Drive (the real bad guy lives there), that is enough of a reason for the police to just be "accidentally" stomping your door down.

SVPRApps
03-23-2010, 8:34 PM
so if i hear someone breaking down my door with guns drawn stating they are police....and i point a gun at them as well..


and they are/are not really cops...


am i ****ed in either situation?

bambam8d1
03-23-2010, 8:36 PM
so if i hear someone breaking down my door with guns drawn stating they are police....and i point a gun at them as well..


and they are/are not really cops...


am i ****ed in either situation?

lol my thought too... id imagine so

Meplat
03-23-2010, 8:40 PM
The truth is, I would probably not even wake up unless the dogs were raising hell for a minuet or too. Everyone I know says they could jack up my house and move it down the street on dollies and I would not wake unless it was raining! But on the off chance I get a chance to get a shot off, well, it was a good day to die. No matter who breaks down my door.


I once dated a girl who's ex was a serial bank robber. One night about 4:00 am, all the doors and windows slammed open, and the room filled with feds! They grabbed me by my hair and dragged me on the floor to the living room. There was like twenty guns in my face, and they all yelled LOUDly throughout. After they got me into the living room, she came in and told them that it wasn't me, they literally leapt to their feet and left. No apology or nothing. They busted her ex the next morning. This all happened so fast, and so dramatically, there was no way I could've drawn on them. I don't care if I had a gun under my pillow, I could never have even raised it.

Hunt
03-23-2010, 8:40 PM
... If police call ahead, no matter what, I will cooperate, even put on a pot of coffee, but I am going to want to be certain they are, in fact police...
http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/crime/archives/home-invasion-robbery/

yep I hear ya, I was sleeping in a motel on Sunset Blvd zzzzzz 2 AM BANG BANG BANG "open up LAPD" these guys were about ready to kick the door down. I was unarmed I had NO reason to be getting a visit from the cops, I thought I was being robbed. I couldn't see them, and they showed no badges just blinded me with lights through the window. I told them I am not opening the door I am calling 911 then they turned up their radios and I heard the dispatch so I let them in. They took one look at me "oh ****" outa here guys.
I am a white guy they were looking for a much wanted black guy with the same name. They weren't there 60 seconds looked under bed in bathroom all four of these guys as big as a truck were gone. They didn't even apologize.

Meplat
03-23-2010, 8:43 PM
Sounds like good agvice to me.


Another reason why I say, if you have a chance to shoot, don't waste it. The real deal generally won't give you that chance.

yellowfin
03-23-2010, 8:43 PM
I'm a law abiding person, so anyone breaking into my home by force is doing so illegally, no ifs ands or buts. They're either illegally intruding by accident or on purpose, either way is illegal and that constitutes crime with threat of lethal force. The details on their end aren't my problem.

zenmastar
03-23-2010, 8:43 PM
My 70cm HT picks up SC sheriff and SJPD dispatch channels on receive only. Seems like a bad guy can use that trick easily.

tyrist
03-23-2010, 8:46 PM
^Okay, you're the cop - tell me how you would've handled the fake US marshalls.

Ask for their dept issued photo ID. We are all required to carry it.

yellowfin
03-23-2010, 8:49 PM
Ask for their dept issued photo ID. We are all required to carry it.Someone breaks into your home, startles you, points a gun or several at you, and you're going to demand for THEM to stop and present ID?


Wow. That much faith in divine providence I wish I could say I have. Not to mention iron clad nerves. That's like having your crotch being bitten by a pit bull and responding "Hahaha! That tickles!"

Meplat
03-23-2010, 8:49 PM
I would rather it happen to the judge that issued the warrant. Or, if the warrant was exceeded. The supervisor who planned the show. I know from listening to scanner traffic that we have one SWAT supervisor in this town who is an accident waiting for a place to happen.


Forced entry by police is a tactic that should be outright illegal. it is an accident waiting to happen every time they kick someone's door down. Police officers should also be held accountable for their mistakes in these entries, if you F-up, you go to jail. A LEO should serve the same penalty as anyone else if they knock down the wrong door, hold someone at gunpoint, and otherwise disturb the peace.

GaryV
03-23-2010, 8:52 PM
I am just stating that making a typo on the warrant is not going to cause the issue

It can and has. You're assuming that just because there's more info on the warrant, the officers actually look at more than the address. Sometimes they don't, because they just assume that everything is correct (or actually go to a different address than that listed because the other info is bad). Also, dynamic entry can be and often is used strictly for the preservation of evidence (which was what it was originally intended for in the law enforcement context), even when no history or evidence of violent potential exists. Check out the link that JeepsRCool posted if you want to see dozens of such documented examples.

bambam8d1
03-23-2010, 8:55 PM
Ask for their dept issued photo ID. We are all required to carry it.

not to blatantly disagree or anything... but i can just imagine it going something like this. They bust in you demand id, they yell shut the hell up and get on the ground as you are knocked to the ground and stood on...?

Meplat
03-23-2010, 9:07 PM
I think he was talking about a knock & talk type situation.

Some observations I have picked up over the years. Generally, real cops will send one guy to the door. In a two man car, if answering a complaint one guy will knock on the door and the other will be at the curb or back a ways with his hand on his gun covering his partner. Even serving an arrest warrant you will probably only see two guys. Your bushes and your ally may be thick with cops in case somebody bolts, but you'll only see two. My best friend spent the first half of his career being the Knock man because he was 6'3" & 260lb.

This may all be dated info and of course it does not pertain to dynamic entry type situations. But If I saw three guys on my porch I would not open the door, I don't car what they are wearing. They do not bring that many guys for a knock & talk.


Um, police are NEVER going to broadcast their presence in a dynamic entry by flashing their lights. That would put the officers at risk and ruin the surprise party for all concerned. They are probably not even going top park in front of the house for that same reason.

Casual_Shooter
03-23-2010, 9:07 PM
not to blatantly disagree or anything... but i can just imagine it going something like this. They bust in you demand id, they yell shut the hell up and get on the ground as you are knocked to the ground and stood on...?

I think tyrist is using the situation described in the OP article. i.e. they knock on the door.

SVPRApps
03-23-2010, 9:14 PM
I think he was talking about a knock & talk type situation.

Some observations I have picked up over the years. Generally, real cops will send one guy to the door. In a two man car, if answering a complaint one guy will knock on the door and the other will be at the curb or back a ways with his hand on his gun covering his partner. Even serving an arrest warrant you will probably only see two guys. Your bushes and your ally may be thick with cops in case somebody bolts, but you'll only see two. My best friend spent the first half of his career being the Knock man because he was 6'3" & 260lb.

This may all be dated info and of course it does not pertain to dynamic entry type situations. But If I saw three guys on my porch I would not open the door, I don't car what they are wearing. They do not bring that many guys for a knock & talk.

To make it safe in any situation (knock&talk or kickdoor&pointgun) i'll opt for calling 911 ASAP to verify that there are cops serving a warrant in my name at my current address?

champion
03-23-2010, 9:25 PM
Forced entry by police is a tactic that should be outright illegal. it is an accident waiting to happen every time they kick someone's door down. Police officers should also be held accountable for their mistakes in these entries, if you F-up, you go to jail. A LEO should serve the same penalty as anyone else if they knock down the wrong door, hold someone at gunpoint, and otherwise disturb the peace.

C'mon. Seriously? What about military then? Should they all go to prison when some civilian gets killed because they happen to live in a warzone and became collateral damage? Bad stuff happens and while there should and would be some kind of reprecussion, I think prison is a little steep. When LEO's are doing dynamic entries it's usually because some douchebag is holding his family hostage or has a drug cache at his house. They don't just run around kicking down doors everywhere. In California you can almost bet that any cop who screws up is going to get thrown under the bus. (Unfortunately). Many times in recent years I've watched LEO's doing it by the book and they still get the shaft.

Meplat
03-23-2010, 9:25 PM
The way you can know if it's really the police or not...one are you a criminal? If you are not a criminal then the chances of the police showing up at your door are very rare.

Yes, but you need to know that you are scaring the horses. Just another reason for LEOs to hang around with us dumb civilian types on CGL. I'm really disappointed that LE participation has gone down sense they got there own forum. As a biologist I can tell you that cross pollination is an important survival strategy.

Meplat
03-23-2010, 9:30 PM
Off topic, but man that seal thing sucks. Like a punch in the gut after the HC takeover. Thanks for your service.

look just understand that all cops are Andy Griffeth. they are perfect, dont make mistakes. If there was a mistake, we have to forgive them because they risk their lives every day and cannot or should not be held accountable.

However the US military gets charged with brutality for punching a terrorest... gues how much money this Military member gives to LEO foundations and charity. NOTHING!!!!

The Director
03-23-2010, 9:30 PM
Another thing that bears mention is to look for their ride. Obviously a marked cruiser with uniformed cops is the safest.....A ghost car is sketchy, lots of civilians have them. Look at the plates if you can - a true cop car doesn't have registration tags, it says CA EXEMPT.

I'm more skeptical than most, I guess. Last film I shot we had we rented a picture car from a rental house - IDENTICAL to an LAPD car in every way, markings, lights, bumper bar, you name it. Actor was wearing full on LAPD outfit down to a tee. The badge was made by the same firm that made the real badges - it just had a fake number on it.

Cost? $300 per day for the car - $150 per day for the uniform plus $75 for the badge and gadgets.

It was so good that our police escort (a real LAPD cop) couldn't tell the difference (minus the fact that none of the computers in the cruiser worked.

The film industry can put on quite a ruse. I hope to god no one uses this stuff to do something bad.

Meplat
03-23-2010, 9:33 PM
So, why not make a good account of yourself one way or the other? That will ultimately give pause to both the good guys and the bad guys.

so if i hear someone breaking down my door with guns drawn stating they are police....and i point a gun at them as well..


and they are/are not really cops...


am i ****ed in either situation?

CavTrooper
03-23-2010, 9:43 PM
get low, prone if possible, aim around a corner, and shoot high.

itll take a few seconds for them to figure out where the shots are coming from, and youll get the #1 man at least, #2 and 3# if youre lucky.

if youre gonna go out, go out strong.

champion
03-23-2010, 9:44 PM
Yes, but you need to know that you are scaring the horses. Just another reason for LEOs to hang around with us dumb civilian types on CGL. I'm really disappointed that LE participation has gone down sense they got there own forum. As a biologist I can tell you that cross pollination is an important survival strategy.

I recently made a new friend, an LA Deputy who said he won't come back to this forum because of all the cop-bashing. I haven't been here long so I don't know. Just a thought.

yellowfin
03-23-2010, 9:53 PM
I recently made a new friend, an LA Deputy who said he won't come back to this forum because of all the cop-bashing. I haven't been here long so I don't know. Just a thought.Did it occur to him as to why people don't like LA's LE? Does he acknowledge that? Or does he actually like the slime they put at the top there?

Meplat
03-23-2010, 10:04 PM
get low, prone if possible, aim around a corner, and shoot high.

itll take a few seconds for them to figure out where the shots are coming from, and youll get the #1 man at least, #2 and 3# if youre lucky.

if youre gonna go out, go out strong.

+100

But aim for the head. "High" is a little vague and reflects center mass training that all may not understand.:43:

I'll buy you a beer in Valhalla.

Meplat
03-23-2010, 10:13 PM
Please try to impress on him that knowing the pulse of the public is a valuable tool for him. This forum is not more anti-cop than the public at large. He needs to know the world he works in. And he has a good chance of changing the minds of many good law abiding citizens who are now on the fence. I say again, as a biologist, cross pollination is a valuable survival strategy.


I recently made a new friend, an LA Deputy who said he won't come back to this forum because of all the cop-bashing. I haven't been here long so I don't know. Just a thought.

inbox485
03-23-2010, 10:24 PM
C'mon. Seriously? What about military then? Should they all go to prison when some civilian gets killed because they happen to live in a warzone and became collateral damage? Bad stuff happens and while there should and would be some kind of reprecussion, I think prison is a little steep. When LEO's are doing dynamic entries it's usually because some douchebag is holding his family hostage or has a drug cache at his house. They don't just run around kicking down doors everywhere. In California you can almost bet that any cop who screws up is going to get thrown under the bus. (Unfortunately). Many times in recent years I've watched LEO's doing it by the book and they still get the shaft.

Check out http://www.cato.org/raidmap/. Read the stories. If you still have time, read the cato reports that go with the map. What is being done is wrong. If some of those stories happened to me, prison wouldn't be nearly enough. Even after they knew they were in the wrong place dealing with innocent civilians, they continued to act like sadistic monsters. The hostage situations or active shooter situations are understandable, but I don't give two $***s if they think there is a drug stash or a possible suspect inside, which is the source of most of the botched operations. They are wrecking lives and killing people just so that some criminals have less time to destroy evidence.

Brianguy
03-23-2010, 10:51 PM
I could have sworn there was a site that had a map with botched PARA Military Style raids:rolleyes:
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
Damn theres some pretty bad stories in there.

AEC1
03-23-2010, 10:56 PM
I recently made a new friend, an LA Deputy who said he won't come back to this forum because of all the cop-bashing. I haven't been here long so I don't know. Just a thought.

Cool, I thought this place seemed better the last few times I logged on...


See the thing is that I know that most cops are great moral upstanding defenders of freedom. What ticks me off is that when they mess up, nad they do. It does not mater if it is a bad cop or an honest mistake it is covered up and every cop around defends them, and then crys cop bashing. If you VOLENTIER to be a police officer then you have to be ready to be 100% right 100% of the time. Deal with it. If as a private citizen an offense or mistake would make me a felon, then the same offense or mistake should make the cop a fellon. PERIOD. I know your job is dangerous but that is no excuse, not at all. If you cant deal with being in a dngerous job, and want to use that as an excuse to cover up your mistakes or get a free pass then quit the force and go flip burgers!!!

Nachoman
03-23-2010, 11:05 PM
so if i hear someone breaking down my door with guns drawn stating they are police....and i point a gun at them as well..


and they are/are not really cops...


am i ****ed in either situation?


Don't let them break down your door...

Serious.

You can pretty easily fortify your exterior doors to withstand pretty much anything a single human can do. If they have battering rams, then most likely they are real cops.

Meplat
03-23-2010, 11:09 PM
Cops are perennially down around 7th to 10th on the list of most dangerous jobs. firefighters, construction hands, agricultural workers, and loggers, usually rotate in the top three. Firefighters are on top most of the time.


Cool, I thought this place seemed better the last few times I logged on...


See the thing is that I know that most cops are great moral upstanding defenders of freedom. What ticks me off is that when they mess up, nad they do. It does not mater if it is a bad cop or an honest mistake it is covered up and every cop around defends them, and then crys cop bashing. If you VOLENTIER to be a police officer then you have to be ready to be 100% right 100% of the time. Deal with it. If as a private citizen an offense or mistake would make me a felon, then the same offense or mistake should make the cop a fellon. PERIOD. I know your job is dangerous but that is no excuse, not at all. If you cant deal with being in a dngerous job, and want to use that as an excuse to cover up your mistakes or get a free pass then quit the force and go flip burgers!!!

AEC1
03-23-2010, 11:10 PM
If they are real cops then they are still going to get shot at, I have not done anything that warrants a no knock entry.... so they must be there illegaly...

on second thought this post will probably be used to get the no knock warrent. please mr po po man I know you are reading this, dont raid me cause I dont trust you....

Swatguy10_15
03-23-2010, 11:10 PM
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/ :eek:

Hoop
03-23-2010, 11:37 PM
Spoken like somebody who has no idea how warrants are done. A mistype on the warrant is not going to cause an accident since not only do you have to type an address but you have to describe the building, which direction it faces, what architectural feature it has, where the front door is etc.

The breaching warrants are special warrants; they are high risk and require the suspect to have a violent history or gang affiliation.

The way you can know if it's really the police or not...one are you a criminal? If you are not a criminal then the chances of the police showing up at your door are very rare.

what he posted about did happen, in socal I believe. They raided a 2 story house on "drive" instead of a one story on "lane". That kind of thing happens a lot actually.

Maestro Pistolero
03-23-2010, 11:43 PM
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
What a great link. Doesn't happen, huh?

Texas Boy
03-24-2010, 1:31 AM
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
What a great link. Doesn't happen, huh?

Very sobering web site. Reading through several of the accounts in different states, some patterns emerge:

1. The overwhelming majority of these are "drug raids". Sometimes for something as minor as suspicion of a small amount of marijuana.
2. "No Knock" warrants are issued, or the LEA "knocks" as the battering ram busts the door down.
3. Plenty of wrong addresses and other miss-targeted raids where the LEA in question should have reasonably known better. In one case, the police could not be bothered to use a flash light to read the house number because it might give up their tactical advantage.
4. No shortage of deaths of innocent people as a result of raids on wrong addresses - even found a report of an 11 year old boy who was killed when the officers shotgun "accidentally" went off. And this was in CA.
5. The LEA and the officers conducting the badly botched raid are almost always cleared of any wrong doing. At best, the families can hope to win a civil suit - but some of the settlement amounts seem insultingly low.

I don't use drugs nor do I condone recreational drug use. However, the "war on drugs" has extracted a heavy toll on our society. Asset forfeiture laws that amount to denial of property without due process and no-knock military style raids on unarmed/non-violent citizens are just two of the more glaring examples.

The Director
03-24-2010, 8:27 AM
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/
What a great link. Doesn't happen, huh?

Dude, the socal stuff alone is sobering.....really....:(

Maestro Pistolero
03-24-2010, 8:27 AM
Unfortunately, more citizens and LE will die as a result of this militarization of our police before the policy and training shifts will occur. This is a leadership and training issue. Make no mistake, this comes from the top down, and is no reflection on the rank and file.

Has there ever been a case where they had the wrong house, and a citizen successful defended his family, and was vindicate? If so, I have never heard of it.

The Director
03-24-2010, 8:40 AM
Unfortunately, more citizens and LE will die as a result of this militarization of our police before the policy and training shifts will occur. This is a leadership and training issue. Make no mistake, this comes from the top down, and is no reflection on the rank and file.

Has there ever been a case where they had the wrong house, and a citizen successful defended his family, and was vindicate? If so, I have never heard of it.

How can you properly defend your home against multiple trained, armored, and heavily armed attackers in the dead of night with no warning? It's an impossible situation.

You'd need to live in a fortified house, have plenty of warning, cameras at your disposal, a plan, and a bunch of loaded guns. I keep like one loaded handgun out. Everything else is in the safe - yes, i have loaded mags ready for my rifles but if you bust down my door, I get 3 seconds notice - how do I win in that situation????

It's a self answering question.

Stealth
03-24-2010, 8:47 AM
In addition to many of the good tips I would check my rear exit/entrance. If I didn't see anyone I would deffinately be suspcious.

911 call with my firearm ready to defend is the next step to verify real LEOs were at my home.

inbox485
03-24-2010, 9:24 AM
Spoken like somebody who has no idea how warrants are done. A mistype on the warrant is not going to cause an accident since not only do you have to type an address but you have to describe the building, which direction it faces, what architectural feature it has, where the front door is etc.

The breaching warrants are special warrants; they are high risk and require the suspect to have a violent history or gang affiliation.

The way you can know if it's really the police or not...one are you a criminal? If you are not a criminal then the chances of the police showing up at your door are very rare.

You really should read some of those stories. These aren't your friendly neighborhood patrol officers we're talking about. These accidents not only happen, they are common. And after the accident happens the victims rarely get so much as an apology from the "police". Just a sample from here in SoCal:

Sometimes a transposed address is exactly what happens:

Donald and Amber Mundy

In February 2004, police in San Bernardino, California looking for cocaine break open the door to an apartment occupied by Donald Mundy and his twin sister, Amber. When officers realize they have raided apartment 204 instead of apartment 214, as specified by the warrant, they conduct a search anyway, and arrest Amber Mundy on charges of marijuana possession.

Source:

"Man says police raided wrong apartment," Ventura County Star, February 13, 2004.

Feb 12, 2004

Sometimes the details on the warrant don't matter:

Donald Harrison

On August 19, 1994, sheriff's deputies in Riverside County, California raid the mobile home of 87-year-old Donald Harrison and wife Elsie, 77. The two are in bed as police break in on a drug warrant. They had the wrong home.

Mr. Harrison would die four days later from a heart attack brought on by the experience.

According to the Harrison's relatives, the elderly couple's mobile home lacked the four-foot fence described in the warrant. The home in the warrant was also made of aluminum, while the Harrisons' home was made of fiberboard. The Harrisons' trailer was also a different color than the trailer identified in the warrant.

Source:

Steven Elbow, "Military Muscle Comes to Mayberry," Madison Capital Times, August 19, 2001.

James Bovard, "Flash. Bang. You're Dead: SWAT teams make dramatic TV but horrible justice; the increase in the number of SWAT teams has led to violent, and sometimes misguided, justice," Playboy, March 1, 2000, p. 53.

Aug 19, 1994

And sometimes they have no warrant at all:

The Celis Family

Police in SWAT gear enter the home of Rudolpho Celis and his family, then hold him and his five children at gunpoint while they search the home for a parolee.

Police had no warrant, and had entered the wrong home. "When I saw my son's face, I felt ashamed because I wasn't doing what a dad is supposed to do," Celis, 54, told a local newspaper. "I felt like I should have protected my kids. I accepted his apologies, but I keep thinking what would have happened if one of my kids had gotten scared and tried to run -- somebody could have been shot."

Lt. Bob Davenport told the paper that officers couldn't use flashlights to verify the address at the home because it would have put them at a "tactical disadvantage."

Sources:

William Fenn Bennett, "Officers raid wrong house; Resident says family traumatized," North County Times, May 6, 2005.

Apr 30, 2005

Merritt Sharp

In 1997, police raid Merritt Sharp's auto body shop on suspicion that his son is running a methamphetamine lab from the site. They have no search warrant.

Sharp is thrown to the asphalt at gunpoint, handcuffed, and held for 45 minutes while police search the premises. When they find no meth lab, they begin searching Sharp's business for stolen and illegal weapons. They find two stolen cars, though neither implicates Sharp. Sharp says officers "high-fived" over him as he lay in handcuffs, and insulted him.

In 2000, a jury found that police had conspired to violate Sharp's constitutional civil rights, and awarded him $1 million. The settlement was later thrown out by Judge Derek W. Hunt, who ruled on appeal that there was no evidence of a conspiracy.

Sources:

"When Police Cross the Line," staff editorial, Orange County Register, July 23, 2000.

John McDonald, "$1 million jury award thrown out," Orange County Register, September 13, 2000.

Jun 13, 1997

inbox485
03-24-2010, 9:31 AM
Unfortunately, more citizens and LE will die as a result of this militarization of our police before the policy and training shifts will occur. This is a leadership and training issue. Make no mistake, this comes from the top down, and is no reflection on the rank and file.

Has there ever been a case where they had the wrong house, and a citizen successful defended his family, and was vindicate? If so, I have never heard of it.

More or less. I don't have a link handy, but there was a case in the LA area Minneapolis area where a guy was able to repel a SWAT team who had the wrong house on their initial entry with a shotgun. They got medals for pressing the fight, almost ventilating his kids and stomping on his head.

Update:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=402645

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Maestro Pistolero
03-24-2010, 9:31 AM
how do I win in that situation?Correct, you don't. But any unexpected barrier (fortified door) etc. would buy a few seconds. If it's truly an honest mistake, shooting would be ridiculous. Better to hash it out in court, and make a PR nightmare out of it for the offending agency.

In the case of an actual home invasion, they often wait until an occupant opens the door, either arriving home, or from within the home. This is the time to be situationally aware. Security screen doors are useful for opening the door (which I do armed), and investigating an apparently friendly visitor.

JDoe
03-24-2010, 10:01 AM
The police say these bad raids happen so infrequently as to not be a concern for law abiding citizens.

Therefore the police should be OK with a law protecting victims of bad raids from criminal or civil liability that might arise as law abiding citizens exercise their right to defend themselves and their property from an apparent home invasion.

Law abiding citizens should not have to endure a moment of hesitation while deciding whether to defend themselves against an apparent home invasion.

oddjob
03-24-2010, 11:12 AM
In my yrs as LEO I've talked with a handful "victims" of a home invasion committed by suspects. They were never reported because they themselves were drug dealers. There was no "knock & notice", but just a door getting kicked in and two or at the most three "police officers." Rather than cuffs they would be zip tied, money, dope & guns taken and out the door. Most did not have a raid jacket. Some suspects did have raid jackets.

This is a scenario that really happened and is more chilling and calculating than the home invasion "cowboy style." Victim is a jeweler and at home with the wife & kids watching TV at night. Suddenly the power goes out. The jeweler thinks its the breaker switch & goes to the box on the side of the house. For some reason he decides to go to the box from the street side in an opposite direction than what he would normally walk from the backyard.

As he approaches the box there is a suspect holding a handgun. The victim screams and runs toward the street. The suspect fires on the victim and misses. The wife picks up the phone and the line is dead. They cut the phone line. The neighbors call 911 regarding gun shots. I'm sure they have a cell phone, but calling 911 on that could take forever to get a response. The suspect runs away & a car is heard screeching away (police are pretty sure he had a partner or two due to the time lines involved).

They were never caught and no suspects were ever named. You can well imagine what they intended to do. What saved this victim & his family was he changed up a normal routine throwing the suspects off.

Home invasions are not done randomly. Its too risky not to be calculating and have a plan. There is a specific target/goal in mind. If the bad guys target you specifically and want you bad enough your done.

kozumasbullitt
03-24-2010, 11:48 AM
More or less. I don't have a link handy, but there was a case in the LA area Minneapolis area where a guy was able to repel a SWAT team who had the wrong house on their initial entry with a shotgun. They got medals for pressing the fight, almost ventilating his kids and stomping on his head.

Update:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=402645

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that is just stupid! the police need to be damn sure they are going to the right house and act out the mission they were given. it is not a citizens responsibility to know who the person kicking the door down is but its the person kicking the door down that better know who that person is. i would probably die in the blaze of fire because there is no reason for my door to be kicked in and i will not think twice about protecting my loved ones.

on a side note. i was raised in sacramento and when i was a kid we had problems with guys pretending to be smud or utility workers for a period of time.

USAFTS
03-24-2010, 12:16 PM
One non-foolproof thing you could do is look for flashing blue lights. LEO-impersonating perps are unlikely to mount those and operate them while doing a home invasion ruse, as they don't want to attract a bunch of side attention. I don't think I've heard of any of these invasions pulling up in a car equipped with the appropriate flashers.

"If you're really a cop, turn on your vehicle's red-and-blue's for a moment."

At the risk of sounding argumentative...I'm not LE but it seems to me that when the good guys are serving a "No-Knock", they tend to make an effort NOT to announce themselves with any noise or lights.

USAFTS
03-24-2010, 12:20 PM
Right.



I wasn't talking about a dynamic entry - I'm talking about the scenario above, where an "LEO" is at the door demanding entry. If they claim there's no time for you to dial 911, AND can't flash their lights for you (most likely because they don't have any to flash), there's no way in hades they're actual LEOs.

Gotcha -

Note to self - "Self, read ahead before you post":)

Zhukov
03-24-2010, 1:22 PM
More or less. I don't have a link handy, but there was a case in the LA area Minneapolis area where a guy was able to repel a SWAT team who had the wrong house on their initial entry with a shotgun. They got medals for pressing the fight, almost ventilating his kids and stomping on his head.

Update:
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=402645


Not to derail completely - Just wanted to point out that the family was awarded $600,000+ in a settlement.

http://www.startribune.com/local/36059839.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiUncacyi8cyaiUiD3aPc:_ Yyc:aUU

A family whose lives were shattered by a mistaken police raid a year ago have been awarded a $612,498 settlement by the city of Minneapolis to make amends.

The settlement, approved by the City Council on Friday, includes a flat $600,000 payment, which includes purchase of the home, and lesser amounts for medical care and rental housing.

In addition, the city will take over remaining mortgage payments on the home, said Thomas Heffelfinger, attorney for Vang Khang and Yee Moua. He said that totals $185,000 and saves the family from possible foreclosure proceedings.

The award is the latest in several payments to victims injured by city employees during the past decade, including a $4.5 million settlement with Duy Ngo, who was shot by a fellow Minneapolis officer during an undercover operation.

"It's only a mistake for them, but it changed our lives forever," Moua said Friday at a news conference held at Heffelfinger's office. "We want what's best for our children. It's a miracle we survived that night. No amount of money can fix what we went through that night."

Acting on wrong information from an informant, a SWAT team broke into Vang Khang's north Minneapolis house last December expecting to find gang members and illegal activity.

But Vang thought the SWAT team members were criminal intruders and shot through his bedroom door to protect his wife and six children, ages 3 to 15. Three officers were hit, but were not injured because they were wearing protective gear. The family also escaped injury even though police fired at least 22 rounds.

Police later admitted that the raid was a mistake and apologized to the family. Heffelfinger said police, who were looking for black suspects, should have realized that a Hmong family resided at the home, at 1321 Logan Av. N., because of various Hmong-related "ornaments and other things" both on the outside and inside of the house.

- Just thought it was interesting and good to know they got something as a result. I still think whoever verified the "intelligence" should have been heavily reprimanded.

inbox485
03-24-2010, 2:14 PM
Not to derail completely - Just wanted to point out that the family was awarded $600,000+ in a settlement.

http://www.startribune.com/local/36059839.html?elr=KArksi8cyaiUncacyi8cyaiUiD3aPc:_ Yyc:aUU

A family whose lives were shattered by a mistaken police raid a year ago have been awarded a $612,498 settlement by the city of Minneapolis to make amends.

The settlement, approved by the City Council on Friday, includes a flat $600,000 payment, which includes purchase of the home, and lesser amounts for medical care and rental housing.

In addition, the city will take over remaining mortgage payments on the home, said Thomas Heffelfinger, attorney for Vang Khang and Yee Moua. He said that totals $185,000 and saves the family from possible foreclosure proceedings.

The award is the latest in several payments to victims injured by city employees during the past decade, including a $4.5 million settlement with Duy Ngo, who was shot by a fellow Minneapolis officer during an undercover operation.

"It's only a mistake for them, but it changed our lives forever," Moua said Friday at a news conference held at Heffelfinger's office. "We want what's best for our children. It's a miracle we survived that night. No amount of money can fix what we went through that night."

Acting on wrong information from an informant, a SWAT team broke into Vang Khang's north Minneapolis house last December expecting to find gang members and illegal activity.

But Vang thought the SWAT team members were criminal intruders and shot through his bedroom door to protect his wife and six children, ages 3 to 15. Three officers were hit, but were not injured because they were wearing protective gear. The family also escaped injury even though police fired at least 22 rounds.

Police later admitted that the raid was a mistake and apologized to the family. Heffelfinger said police, who were looking for black suspects, should have realized that a Hmong family resided at the home, at 1321 Logan Av. N., because of various Hmong-related "ornaments and other things" both on the outside and inside of the house.

- Just thought it was interesting and good to know they got something as a result. I still think whoever verified the "intelligence" should have been heavily reprimanded.

I think the key take away from this is: "No amount of money can fix what [they] went through that night."

OrovilleTim
03-24-2010, 2:33 PM
Spoken like somebody who has no idea how warrants are done. A mistype on the warrant is not going to cause an accident since not only do you have to type an address but you have to describe the building, which direction it faces, what architectural feature it has, where the front door is etc.


I wish I had that link handy that is a collection of no-knocks that were executed on the wrong locations. I was amazed at the number of them.

Anybody here know the site I'm referring to?

magsnubs
03-24-2010, 2:37 PM
Cato inst google map with pins for them. LEOs insist that these mistakes are rare, but the truth is they are common. There are very few instances where the only option is armed violent entry. I know it's kinda fun for LE, but it is NOT fun for the targets, most of whom are guilty of nothing more than possesing inanimate objects, and many of whom are guilty of nothing. Does nobody ever do a cost/benefit analysis of these things? Is it really worth preventing someone from smoking pot, all this commando raiding?

inbox485
03-24-2010, 2:43 PM
I wish I had that link handy that is a collection of no-knocks that were executed on the wrong locations. I was amazed at the number of them.

Anybody here know the site I'm referring to?

Been posted several times in this thread alone, but here it is again:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

Glock-matic
03-24-2010, 3:24 PM
I recently made a new friend, an LA Deputy who said he won't come back to this forum because of all the cop-bashing. I haven't been here long so I don't know. Just a thought.

Perhaps he doesn't like that people are not impressed with the deity status they are constantly granted in California. Hard to say, I hear very few complain about all law enforcement, but I hear quite a few express their dislike for certain tasks.

It is hard to believe in "serve and protect" when it has been decided that LEOs have no duty to actually save people from injury. When they make mistakes, even those that kill people, they are often given counsel not at their expense. They can lie to you. They can trick you. They can make up reasons to search you and you car despite a lack of PC. We have a certain few LEOs who make jokes about proning people out and possibly shooting them, even though they have done nothing illegal. We have had a dept (the other LA, Katrina style) disarm the populace, and even shot a few citizens then their police reports on the shootings don't jive with forensics. Certain PDs complain how they don't have enough resources to respond to 911 calls, answer burglar alarm calls, or deal with the gang problems; but, they have enough resources to post people at gun stores and gun ranges to bust otherwise honest citizens on technicalities.

Of course people are getting pissed, and it will get worse until changes come around. When the PD's political faction quits acting like the enemy to the law-abiding, then we will once again have our LEO's at the top of the respect pyramid.

GaryV
03-24-2010, 3:32 PM
C'mon. Seriously? What about military then? Should they all go to prison when some civilian gets killed because they happen to live in a warzone and became collateral damage? Bad stuff happens and while there should and would be some kind of reprecussion, I think prison is a little steep. When LEO's are doing dynamic entries it's usually because some douchebag is holding his family hostage or has a drug cache at his house. They don't just run around kicking down doors everywhere. In California you can almost bet that any cop who screws up is going to get thrown under the bus. (Unfortunately). Many times in recent years I've watched LEO's doing it by the book and they still get the shaft.

There's a huge difference between the police operating in communities whose citizens they are hired to serve and soldiers fighting in a war zone. The two aren't even remotely comparable as far as their level of responsibility for "collateral damage". The police can't call in air strikes or fire missions, or even use suppressive fire, to suppress resistance or threats specifically because they are not legally allowed any "collateral damage". Police officers should get no special pass on accidental or, more to the point, negligent killing of innocent people. If they do, then we live in a police state, where our lives are not as important as those of government employees who are there to serve us.

Activities that are demonstrably a threat to the safety of the community, such as no-knock warrants, should only be allowed when the threat they are used to stop is greater than the threat of the police action. While a drug cache may be a threat to people who are stupid enough to voluntarily use, it does not rise to anything like the threat of death to innocent people.

Preserving evidence, except possibly if it was something like information needed to stop a terrorist attack, is simply not a remotely valid reason for using that kind of military tactic. And officers who do use it, and negligently injure or kill someone without justification as a result, should suffer the same legal consequences that anyone else would were they to do the same thing.

OleCuss
03-24-2010, 4:06 PM
LEO doesn't generally do "dynamic entry" if they don't think they have to. Too risky in a whole bunch of ways.

I won't begrudge them the need to occasionally take that action and I hope that if they ever make the mistake of trying it in my house that they won't begrudge me my need to fight back if I have the chance.

If they knock at the door and I can confirm that they are LEO and that they have a warrant - I'll let them in no problem. As I said, I don't think I own anything which is illegal.

champion
03-24-2010, 4:16 PM
Well said. It has occurred to me while reading your post that Law Enforcement is actually held to a "higher standard" (In principle, not always in reality). So I have to agree with you.

There's a huge difference between the police operating in communities whose citizens they are hired to serve and soldiers fighting in a war zone. The two aren't even remotely comparable as far as their level of responsibility for "collateral damage". The police can't call in air strikes or fire missions, or even use suppressive fire, to suppress resistance or threats specifically because they are not legally allowed any "collateral damage". Police officers should get no special pass on accidental or, more to the point, negligent killing of innocent people. If they do, then we live in a police state, where our lives are not as important as those of government employees who are there to serve us.

Activities that are demonstrably a threat to the safety of the community, such as no-knock warrants, should only be allowed when the threat they are used to stop is greater than the threat of the police action. While a drug cache may be a threat to people who are stupid enough to voluntarily use, it does not rise to anything like the threat of death to innocent people.

Preserving evidence, except possibly if it was something like information needed to stop a terrorist attack, is simply not a remotely valid reason for using that kind of military tactic. And officers who do use it, and negligently injure or kill someone without justification as a result, should suffer the same legal consequences that anyone else would were they to do the same thing.

Seesm
03-24-2010, 4:36 PM
Pretty scary... Wow at my place I hope this does not happen cuz I would not just take it for fact the anyone is LEO or a U.S. Marshall... It would get ugly as my family is important to me... This is a perfect reason to just change it where the real eo can not just BARGE in... Someone is going to die for sure.

magsnubs
03-24-2010, 6:02 PM
I agree with the anti special treatment of LE on this one, but I gotta say (having been in a house that was raided) you guys will not get a chance to fight back. They are incredibly quick and very purposeful about these things. They plan for everything, and if you happen to be prepared (armed and ready) they will gun you down in a blink of an eye! I hope for ya'll's sake they hit you when your guns are locked away or at least out of reach. These guys are itching to shoot the first thing that they feel scared by, and that might just be you! Now in a home invasion, you'll want to kill as many as possible, so my taxes don't have to pay for another trial! Actually more so nobody has to be threatened with death or worse by them again. I would have typed it, but I hate the term "LOL".

tyrist
03-24-2010, 6:53 PM
Because it would take me a week to train you all and debunk most of what you believe to be the truth; I will state this, how did a conversation about identifying real vs fake officers turn into a discussion about no knock warrants?

As far as the real examples, not nearly enough information to draw conclusions about what specifically went wrong.

I never stated the police don't go to a house where the suspect/evidence is gone. I merely stated a simple typo on the warrant itself should not cause a mistaken "dynamic" entry. When you move up to the level of no knock the amount of recon and the length of the warrants/reports and the level it needs to reach for a judge to sign is high.

Dragunov
03-24-2010, 6:55 PM
C'mon. Seriously? What about military then? Should they all go to prison when some civilian gets killed because they happen to live in a warzone and became collateral damage? Bad stuff happens and while there should and would be some kind of reprecussion, I think prison is a little steep. When LEO's are doing dynamic entries it's usually because some douchebag is holding his family hostage or has a drug cache at his house. They don't just run around kicking down doors everywhere. In California you can almost bet that any cop who screws up is going to get thrown under the bus. (Unfortunately). Many times in recent years I've watched LEO's doing it by the book and they still get the shaft.

Unfortunately??? If a LEO mistakenly busts into my home and shoots/kills one of my kids? I will SEE to it that he gets thrown "under the bus". I respect LEOs but if they make that kind of mistake, they need to be punished SEVERELY!! This is the risk a LEO takes when he/she takes the job. You take the bad with the good. You screw up that badly?? You should pay.

And as far as soldiers go? That's different and DON'T even go there!

Police are not military. They are civilians who's job requires them to carry a gun.

GaryV
03-24-2010, 7:36 PM
I merely stated a simple typo on the warrant itself should not cause a mistaken "dynamic" entry.

You're absolutely right, it shouldn't. But what you posted before is that it couldn't. Having been an LEO for several years myself and seeing the reports of several of these mistakes, I know for a fact that sometimes it does happen. Sometimes officers just get too gung-ho, or too careless, or just aren't willing to take the time to double check their info, even if some of it is conflicting. Simple typos, misreadings, and bad assumptions can and do cause these problems, even on no-knock warrants.

The reason no-knocks became an issue here is that the fact that police (over) use of this tactic makes the innocent victim vulnerable to home invasions where the perps claim to be police. People who might otherwise resist a forced entry have to consider whether they are setting themselves up to be murdered by the police or convicted of a crime if they defend themselves against what could very well be a robbery or worse.

No-knocks should be made illegal except in cases of credible direct threats to human life. There's really no justification for them otherwise. Evidence is not worth an innocent life. And, despite your claim that they are exclusively used for cases of a violent threat, they were originally invented by the Nixon administration specifically in order to protect evidence, as part of Nixon's declaration of the War on Drugs - and are still widely used for this purpose.

Rob454
03-25-2010, 5:02 AM
eff that you knock first, I look threw peep hole, you get let in at my discretion.

Come in busting my door down, my gun is drawn.

I have no reason for the police to just be stomping my door down so I wouldnt believe that bit ofr one second. I better be seeing some ID and warrants.

Im with you. There is absolutely no reason for the cops to be ripping my door down

jaq
03-25-2010, 6:35 AM
Because it would take me a week to train you all and debunk most of what you believe to be the truth; ...
I never stated the police don't go to a house where the suspect/evidence is gone. I merely stated a simple typo on the warrant itself should not cause a mistaken "dynamic" entry. When you move up to the level of no knock the amount of recon and the length of the warrants/reports and the level it needs to reach for a judge to sign is high.

Are you serious? You really ought to think about getting a clue. Here are a couple of free ones: there are a buttload of current and former military and police on this board. There are also a lot of legal professionals here. There are educated people among this group who are qualified scholars. And YOU are going to talk to them like this? Please read widely and with an open mind so that you don't come across as so uninformed.

Dynamic entries on wrong addresses have been widely reported over the years. The results have been tragic beyond belief. The "War on Drugs" is a blight on our nation (it is most enlightening that it was created by Richard "I am not a crook" Nixon). It has corrupted our government institutions and officials. If it isn't rectified, the end of it will be the destruction of this nation as we know it.