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flying2275
03-21-2010, 10:07 PM
A post on another thread got me interested in this. I didn't want to highjack that thread so I started this one I figured other military members on this site may be wondering this also.

I'm in the military stationed here in CA but I'm an Iowa resident. ( IA drivers license, vehicle registered in IA, paying IA income tax, registered to vote in IA etc etc).

I can purchase firearms here in CA with my Military ID and a copy of my military orders. In IA all I need is my drivers license. Could I go home on leave and purchace a few 1911 frames or other handguns not on the official list and bring them back here to CA and then sell them here on Calguns for the disadvantaged? Of course going threw a FFL with the person buying from me.

What would be the legalities of this?

thanks

corrupt
03-21-2010, 11:18 PM
Interesting question!

lorax3
03-21-2010, 11:38 PM
Could I go home on leave and purchace a few 1911 frames or other handguns not on the official list and bring them back here to CA and then sell them here on Calguns for the disadvantaged?
What would be the legalities of this?


Sort answer. Legally, no. Details below.

Most pistols are out. Frames/receivers may be an option depending if you consider them to meet the definition of a pistol. Frames are not specifically included to be pistols in all sections. It also brings up some straw purchase questions if you are actually buying the handgun for someone else or if you started to do this on a regular basis, etc.

Plenty of fun code to look over. :)

12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who
manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state
for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends
any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail not exceeding one year.

12126. As used in this chapter, "unsafe handgun" means any pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001, for which any
of the following is true:
(a) For a revolver:
(1) It does not have a safety device that, either automatically in
the case of a double-action firing mechanism, or by manual operation
in the case of a single-action firing mechanism, causes the hammer
to retract to a point where the firing pin does not rest upon the
primer of the cartridge.
(2) It does not meet the firing requirement for handguns pursuant
to Section 12127.
(3) It does not meet the drop safety requirement for handguns
pursuant to Section 12128.
(b) For a pistol:
(1) It does not have a positive manually operated safety device,
as determined by standards relating to imported guns promulgated by
the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
(2) It does not meet the firing requirement for handguns pursuant
to Section 12127.
(3) It does not meet the drop safety requirement for handguns
pursuant to Section 12128.
(4) Commencing January 1, 2006, for a center fire semiautomatic
pistol that is not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section
12131, it does not have either a chamber load indicator, or a
magazine disconnect mechanism.
(5) Commencing January 1, 2007, for all center fire semiautomatic
pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section
12131, it does not have both a chamber load indicator and if it has
a detachable magazine, a magazine disconnect mechanism.
(6) Commencing January 1, 2006, for all rimfire semiautomatic
pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section
12131, it does not have a magazine disconnect mechanism, if it has a
detachable magazine.
(7) Commencing January 1, 2010, for all semiautomatic pistols that
are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it
is not designed and equipped with a microscopic array of characters
that identify the make, model, and serial number of the pistol,
etched or otherwise imprinted in two or more places on the interior
surface or internal working parts of the pistol, and that are
transferred by imprinting on each cartridge case when the firearm is
fired, provided that the Department of Justice certifies that the
technology used to create the imprint is available to more than one
manufacturer unencumbered by any patent restrictions.

12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be
interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol,"
"revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."
(b) As used in this title, "firearm" means any device, designed to
be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a
projectile by the force of any explosion or other form of combustion.
(c) As used in Sections 12021, 12021.1, 12070, 12071, 12072,
12073, 12078, 12101, and 12801 of this code, and Sections 8100, 8101,
and 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, the term "firearm"
includes the frame or receiver of the weapon.

Kind of makes me wonder how we offer for sale non-rostered handguns for PPT's. Perhaps I have not found the exemption yet.

Deamer
03-22-2010, 12:02 AM
Safe handgun roster has nothing to do with it. According to federal law for firearms purchases a military member is a resident of the state that are on your orders.
From the ATF website:
Section 921(b) of the GCA provides that a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located. The purchaser's official orders showing that his or her permanent duty station is within the State where the licensed premises are located suffice to establish the purchaser's residence for GCA purposes. In combination with a military identification card, such orders will satisfy the Brady Act's requirement for an identification document, even though the purchaser may actually reside in a home that is not located on the military base.

lorax3
03-22-2010, 12:07 AM
Safe handgun roster has nothing to do with it. According to federal law for firearms purchases a military member is a resident of the state that are on your orders.


There is no question that he can legally purchase firearms in either state. The issue is at a state level and importation of 'unsafe handguns'.

Deamer
03-22-2010, 12:16 AM
If he is stationed in Ca he cannot legally buy a handgun in Iowa. If you read the part I copied from the ATF website it states it right there. The only exemption is if he is stationed in one state and commutes daily from another state. Then he can buy in both states.

cltitus
03-22-2010, 12:26 AM
If he is stationed in Ca he cannot legally buy a handgun in Iowa. If you read the part I copied from the ATF website it states it right there. The only exemption is if he is stationed in one state and commutes daily from another state. Then he can buy in both states.

Wrong

Since Your int he military and you do not have a choice of living you have some exemptions. All firearms that are legal are legal in California but you will have to apply for permits which are easy to get. Yes you can go on leave buy a gun back home and travel back with it but once you bring it will have to register it. For assault rifles you will have to apply for assault rifle permit which you will get because exceptions in the federal law. Your a federal employee not a state employee Federal > State., but as for laws local state then government. Believe me on this I get people asking me this all the time at work. Talk to your Base Marshall Service they will tell you the steps that need to be completed.

Deamer
03-22-2010, 12:30 AM
This ATF newsletter explains it a little more.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2004-08.pdf

cltitus
03-22-2010, 12:31 AM
If he is stationed in Ca he cannot legally buy a handgun in Iowa. If you read the part I copied from the ATF website it states it right there. The only exemption is if he is stationed in one state and commutes daily from another state. Then he can buy in both states.


ATF regulars yes but as a Active Military Member your residency unless he decides to change his residency to California he legally can go home purchase handgun in Iowa, since he is a registered tax payer in Iowa.

Deamer
03-22-2010, 12:44 AM
Did you guys even read the ATF Items I posted? State residency for taxes and guns are two different beings. They spelled it out in the gun control act so military could buy gun where they are stationed. Here it the ATF quote one more time. "Section 921(b) of the GCA provides that a member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his permanent duty station is located."

ya, you can probably get away with it but it is illegal. As far as the Military Permit that is a one time permit to bring guns you already own into the state. It is supposed to be filled out and approved before you bring the guns into Ca.

ke6guj
03-22-2010, 12:44 AM
Kind of makes me wonder how we offer for sale non-rostered handguns for PPT's. Perhaps I have not found the exemption yet.

here's the exemption for PPTs
12132. This chapter shall not apply to any of the following:
(a) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm pursuant to Section 12082 in order to comply with subdivision (d) of Section 12072.
(b) The sale, loan, or transfer of any firearm that is exempt from the provisions of subdivision (d) of Section 12072 pursuant to any applicable exemption contained in Section 12078, if the sale, loan, or transfer complies with the requirements of that applicable exemption to subdivision (d) of Section 12072.

lorax3
03-22-2010, 1:00 AM
here's the exemption for PPTs

Gracias.

JDay
03-22-2010, 6:16 AM
Your state of residence is where your permanent duty station is, unless that's in Iowa you are no longer legally a resident of Iowa.

JDay
03-22-2010, 6:28 AM
There is no question that he can legally purchase firearms in either state. The issue is at a state level and importation of 'unsafe handguns'.

WRONG! The only way this would be legal is if he commutes from Iowa to California each day.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html

Q: What constitutes residency in a State?

The State of residence is the State in which an individual is present; the individual also must have an intention of making a home in that State. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained. An alien who is legally in the United States is considered to be a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in that State and has resided in that State continuously for a period of at least 90 days prior to the date of sale of the firearm. See also Item 5, “Sales to Aliens in the United States,” in the General Information section of this publication.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf

State of residence. The State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains his home. Temporary stay in a State does not make the State of temporary stay the State of residence.

ETA: He also needs to pay CA income tax, register to vote in CA, get a CA drivers license, register his vehicle in CA (if its in CA), etc.

JDay
03-22-2010, 6:35 AM
ATF regulars yes but as a Active Military Member your residency unless he decides to change his residency to California he legally can go home purchase handgun in Iowa, since he is a registered tax payer in Iowa.

This is the kind of advice that can get people prison terms. He's also paying taxes in the wrong state.

ChuckBooty
03-22-2010, 6:56 AM
This is the kind of advice that can get people prison terms. He's also paying taxes in the wrong state.

No he's not. Active military CAN elect to continue paying taxes in their home of record. That's an IRS law. But they can NOT choose to buy firearms in their home of record (that's an ATF law).

troysland
03-22-2010, 7:02 AM
To the OP: yes you can. Whithout inquiring with the details, it happens all the time. More easily between CA & NV-AZ. (Shorter commute)

JDay
03-22-2010, 7:11 AM
To the OP: yes you can. Whithout inquiring with the details, it happens all the time. More easily between CA & NV-AZ. (Shorter commute)

He doesn't live in NV, AZ or even IA for that matter, see quoted ATF faq above.

flying2275
03-22-2010, 9:35 AM
This ATF newsletter explains it a little more.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2004-08.pdf

That link pretty much clears it up for me. I am considered an Iowa resident up to the point of buying firearms. Which then I'm a CA resident.
Evan though I may get away with buying back in IA it's not worth it to me. Now all I need to do is get orders to a free state!

Grigs
03-22-2010, 10:11 AM
Uh oh.... I didn't realize this. I just bought a shotgun in Texas as I am a Texas resident stationed in California. What a rediculous law.

LeftyShooter
03-22-2010, 12:25 PM
]



ETA: He also needs to pay CA income tax, register to vote in CA, get a CA drivers license, register his vehicle in CA (if its in CA), etc.

Big Negative on this.

I'm an out of state resident stationed here in California.

I hold a valid out of state driver's license, have that state on my W-4 for my state residency for income tax, and vote by absentee ballot from that state.

I do register my vehicle in Cali but don't have to (I've previously been stationed here and kept my vehicle registered in my legal residence state.) Cali has an exemption for Military Non-residents stationed here that waives the majority of the vehicle license fees.

The majority of the Marines I serve with are NOT California residents and normally maintain their residency in the state they joined from.

The Servicemembers Civil Relief Act (formerly known as the Soldiers and Sailors Civil Relief Act) governs this, NOT the ATF or the Gun Control Act.

LeftyShooter
03-22-2010, 12:35 PM
No he's not. Active military CAN elect to continue paying taxes in their home of record. That's an IRS law. But they can NOT choose to buy firearms in their home of record (that's an ATF law).

Home of Record is not the same as Legal Residence and has nothing to do with taxes etc.

Home of Record is simply where the person lived when they joined.

Your Home of Record could be the same as your Legal Residence, but does not have to be.

My Home of Record is in one state (where I joined the military from), my Legal Residence is another, and I'm stationed here in Cali.

My state of Legal Residence is what goes on my W-4 for tax purposes not my Home of Record.

You can change your Legal Residence, but the only way you can change your Home of Record is if you get out (discharged) and then join back up. At that time you can change it. (I don't believe there are any other exceptions)

Whether it's technically legal or not I'm not arguing, but I've known people that bought weapons both here in Cali where they are stationed and in their state of Legal Residence.

AEC1
03-22-2010, 9:34 PM
You do not have to pay CA taxes. You do not have to register in CA or get a DL for that matter.

I am stationed at NI as well. shoot me a PM and we can talk about it rationaly. WAY TO MUCH FUD HERE!!!

markw
03-22-2010, 11:08 PM
Wrong

Since Your int he military and you do not have a choice of living you have some exemptions. All firearms that are legal are legal in California but you will have to apply for permits which are easy to get. Yes you can go on leave buy a gun back home and travel back with it but once you bring it will have to register it. For assault rifles you will have to apply for assault rifle permit which you will get because exceptions in the federal law. Your a federal employee not a state employee Federal > State., but as for laws local state then government. Believe me on this I get people asking me this all the time at work. Talk to your Base Marshall Service they will tell you the steps that need to be completed.

Active duty military are exempt from the 60 day registration. California doesn't start the clock on the residency portion of a "personal handgun importer" until a person is discharged and stays in California. Only personal handgun importers have to register and pay the $19 per gun, and those are people establishing residency.


12001 (o) For purposes of paragraph (6) of subdivision (n):
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), residency shall be
determined in the same manner as is the case for establishing
residency pursuant to Section 12505 of the Vehicle Code.
(2) In the case of members of the Armed Forces of the United
States, residency shall be deemed to be established when he or she
was discharged from active service in this state.

markw
03-22-2010, 11:22 PM
This is the kind of advice that can get people prison terms. He's also paying taxes in the wrong state.

He's paying them in the right state. Active duty have to put extra effort into establishing residency in any state they're stationed in. Just because he lives here doesn't mean he's a resident. He can even buy a house here and still be a resident of Iowa. California recognizes this and cuts active duty breaks on stuff like vehicle registration. They even have forms for military non-resident.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/forms/reg/reg5045.pdf

He can bring a genuine AW into CA and register it as an AW. The only thing he can't do is legally bring in hicap magazines.

There's a quite a few benefits of being active duty. He's a resident of IA until discharged, and not a resident of CA.

Deamer
03-22-2010, 11:40 PM
You do not have to pay CA taxes.

Adding "unless you have job income in the state other than military."

Accurate info in your, Leftyshooters and markw's post. I was worried about the buying a house aspect when I bought mine a few years ago. Been stationed in Ca for 20 years and am still a Missouri resident. That will probably change this year if I retire.

Leftyshooter, I wonder if military purchasing handguns from their home state is something the ATF just doesn't worry to much about. Ya, it probably happens all the time but that doesn't make it legal.

markw
03-23-2010, 12:20 AM
Yeah, CA income. Also, 50% of your military pay if you're married and your wife is civilian residing here. The military non-resident doesn't extend to spouses. I found it cheaper to register vehicles here as it's just the 46 bucks or so even on a new car. Buy it in Iowa, pay the Iowa sales tax which is something like 5 or 6%, then when it comes up for renewal, go down to DMV and file non-resident. :)

As for the ATF/GCA rule it appears to establish precedence to allow active duty to buy firearms in the state they're stationed in. I can't see the ATF going after active duty for purchasing a firearm while home on leave. The whole time I was on active duty, I retained my IA residency.

Re-reading the post on 962. If he quoted it properly, it says that permanent duty station orders are enough to establish residency for the purpose of the GCA. It doesn't remove residency from their home state. I know guys buy firearms when on leave all the time. Ones stationed in CA just have to be careful with what they bring back from leave.