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View Full Version : 2 fellas busted on the way to Chabot rifle range..


Centurion_D
03-21-2010, 8:12 PM
Wasn't planning a range trip today but at the last minute changed my mind and went to Chabot rifle range. Stayed for an hour. On my way out I saw a car pulled over by two motorcycle cops on the road into Chabot park. They had their gun bags on the hood of the vehicle and two fellas we're handcuffed sitting on the side of the road. Wondering if they might have gotten popped for some illegal guns. :confused:

SJgunguy24
03-21-2010, 8:18 PM
Wasn't planning a range trip today but at the last minute changed my mind and went to Chabot rifle range. Stayed for an hour. On my way out I saw a car pulled over by two motorcycle cops on the road into Chabot park. They had their gun bags on the hood of the vehicle and two fellas we're handcuffed sitting on the side of the road. Wondering if they might have gotten popped for some illegal guns. :confused:

Motorcycle cops up there? Were they East Bay park and rec cops or ACSO? If they were park cops they were probably speeding and they seen the cases. Handcuffed for officer safety is what I'd guess.

Shotgun Man
03-21-2010, 8:20 PM
Or legal guns.

bwiese
03-21-2010, 8:32 PM
Can folks out that way find out more please and keep me posted?

Were the motorcycle cops OPD?

joelogic
03-21-2010, 9:04 PM
There was a motorcycle cop parked just inside the entrance to the chabot shooting range. Bike was a harley and all white with only Police on the side of the gas tank. There others in the car and I could not tell what city the bike cop was from. This was at 2:15pm today.

BigDogatPlay
03-21-2010, 9:23 PM
If they were hanging out at the head of the road down to the range, then they'd almost certainly be EBRPD-PDor ACSO. The park guys look like this....

http://www.ebparks.org/files/u10/police.jpg

Most of their motors are dirt bikes.

Centurion_D
03-21-2010, 9:36 PM
Can folks out that way find out more please and keep me posted?

Were the motorcycle cops OPD?

As far as I can tell they were not OPD but I can't be certain.

Centurion_D
03-21-2010, 9:37 PM
If they were hanging out at the head of the road down to the range, then they'd almost certainly be EBRPD-PDor ACSO. The park guys look like this....

http://www.ebparks.org/files/u10/police.jpg

Most of their motors are dirt bikes.

That looks more like the motorcycles the officers had. Looks like the same bike and color.

Gryff
03-21-2010, 10:54 PM
East Bay Parks doesn't have Harley street bikes. It's either a BMW or possibly a Honda.

battleship
03-21-2010, 11:06 PM
Harleys carn't handle those hills:scooter: im kidding.
This could be interesting or just a traffic ticket.

oaklander
03-21-2010, 11:10 PM
Whoever this was needs to contact CGF.

Seesm
03-22-2010, 12:43 AM
I have got a few tickets over the years with no handcuffing of me btw...

Ford8N
03-22-2010, 4:28 AM
Doesn't California have some kind of law against "ambushing" drunks out side of bars at closing time? If so, are cops "ambushing" gun owners leaving shooting ranges? :TFH:

RP1911
03-22-2010, 5:58 AM
That looks like a Honda ST1300.

LHC30
03-22-2010, 7:46 AM
Doesn't California have some kind of law against "ambushing" drunks out side of bars at closing time?

Nope


If so, are cops "ambushing" gun owners leaving shooting ranges? :TFH:

Wont know till there are more FACTS about this particular activity...

ROCKILLER
03-22-2010, 8:12 AM
I have got a few tickets over the years with no handcuffing of me btw...

I've been asked "told" to exit the vehicle, searched, and made to sit on the curb while officers searched the vehicle and inspected the guns. They were all legal and we left without a citation or anything (originally stopped because my buddy is dumb). However, I dont see cuffing them up as necessarily too extreme depending on attitudes/circumstances. Definitely need more info before forming any kind of opinion.

Ron-Solo
03-22-2010, 8:16 AM
Doesn't California have some kind of law against "ambushing" drunks out side of bars at closing time? If so, are cops "ambushing" gun owners leaving shooting ranges? :TFH:

Nope

IGOTDIRT4U
03-22-2010, 8:27 AM
Chabot? Location? I'm not familiar with this range.

joelogic
03-22-2010, 8:51 AM
google "chabot shooting range". Castro Valley, CA.

BigDogatPlay
03-22-2010, 8:53 AM
Chabot Gun Club (http://www.chabotgunclub.com/)

The physical address is 9999 Redwood Road, Castro Valley. The range is up in the hills on the western slope. There is a long road ( 1/2 - 3/4 mile IIRC) from Redwood Road down to the range. It's all within the Lake Chabot Regional Park of EBRPD.

Texas Boy
03-22-2010, 10:13 AM
Not making any assumptions about what happened, but trying to understand what could/should/might happen if you were stopped entering or exiting Chabot for a traffic violation...

Assuming you take the 5th, don't admit to having any guns, don't consent to a search, there is no range gear visible to an officer peering into the car, and there are no other factors (like someone just robbed a bank with the same make/model/color car, etc), how legal would it be for the officer to tell you to leave the car, cuff you, and search your vehicle?

IGOTDIRT4U
03-22-2010, 10:27 AM
Chabot Gun Club (http://www.chabotgunclub.com/)

The physical address is 9999 Redwood Road, Castro Valley. The range is up in the hills on the western slope. There is a long road ( 1/2 - 3/4 mile IIRC) from Redwood Road down to the range. It's all within the Lake Chabot Regional Park of EBRPD.

Eh, so it sounds a lot like Burro Cnayon, where you are basically funneled through one road to accesss the area and it would not be hard for PD to literally stop every and anyone coming and going.

There's got to be more to the story (obviously).

xrMike
03-22-2010, 11:44 AM
That looks like a Honda ST1300.Yep, that's an ST.

Swiss
03-22-2010, 11:54 AM
Chabot's my favorite range. Please stay on top of this and let us know what happened.

bodger
03-22-2010, 2:29 PM
I've been asked "told" to exit the vehicle, searched, and made to sit on the curb while officers searched the vehicle and inspected the guns. They were all legal and we left without a citation or anything (originally stopped because my buddy is dumb). However, I dont see cuffing them up as necessarily too extreme depending on attitudes/circumstances. Definitely need more info before forming any kind of opinion.


Did you give consent for that search?
I've become extremely cautious these days going to and from the ranges. A Place To Shoot in Saugus or Burro.
All my firearms are legally configured, but nevertheless I keep them in locked containers and the containers covered with moving blankets.

I hope we get more info on this Chabot stop.

CEDaytonaRydr
03-22-2010, 2:38 PM
Handcuffed for officer safety is what I'd guess.

I've always wondered about this...

Is there any way to lawfully refuse this, or something (like you can refuse to consent to search)?

What if you have a disability that might be aggrevated by being cuffed with your hands behind your back. Can you at least request to have your hands cuffed in front?

sytfu_RR
03-22-2010, 3:07 PM
2 Weeks ago I was pulled over on redwood leaving Chabot range too; by Regional Parks Police. Officer told me that my 3rd brake light was out. I'd rather not post all the details, but they ended up checking the rifles. At first the officer believed they were AW, due to no mag in the magwell. However when his supervisor came, the supervisor checked, saw the maglocks, and stated the rifles were GTG. We were on the side of redwood for over an hour while they "checked". My friends and I sat on the hood of the cruisers while they did their business. The officer that pulled me over was polite and explained everything that was happening. His cover unit wasn't so friendly, but the supervisor that showed up was very nice and seemed to be in the know in regards to OLL's. Hopefully the guys in question today had legally configured firearms.

Glock22Fan
03-22-2010, 3:32 PM
Not making any assumptions about what happened, but trying to understand what could/should/might happen if you were stopped entering or exiting Chabot for a traffic violation...

Assuming you take the 5th, don't admit to having any guns, don't consent to a search, there is no range gear visible to an officer peering into the car, and there are no other factors (like someone just robbed a bank with the same make/model/color car, etc), how legal would it be for the officer to tell you to leave the car, cuff you, and search your vehicle?

Umm, not at all, unless the cop can think of a really imaginative reason why this is necessary.

Otherwise they could just do that with any and every vehicle they see on the street.

WokMaster1
03-22-2010, 4:26 PM
2 Weeks ago I was pulled over on redwood leaving Chabot range too; by Regional Parks Police. Officer told me that my 3rd brake light was out. I'd rather not post all the details, but they ended up checking the rifles. At first officer believed they were AW, due to no mag in the magwell. However when his supervisor came, the supervisor checked, saw the maglocks, and stated the rifles were GTG. we were on the side of redwood for over an hour while they "checked". My friends and I sat on the hood of the cruisers while they did their business. The officer that pulled me over was polite and explained everything that was happening. His cover unit wasn't so friendly, but the supervisor that showed up was very nice and seemed to be in the know in regards to OLL's. Hopefully the guys in question today had legally configured firearms.

OP, did you get a name to report to "the Right People"?
Looks like it's time for CGF to say hello to EBRP PD just as a reminder.

Must be really slow for these folks or they were asked to get some "income" for the dept.

Reminder to all folks. Make sure your vehicle is in good condition ie, all parts working. Carry the SAC PD memo with your firearms/OLLs.

HokeySon
03-22-2010, 4:33 PM
I've always wondered about this...

Is there any way to lawfully refuse this, or something (like you can refuse to consent to search)?

What if you have a disability that might be aggrevated by being cuffed with your hands behind your back. Can you at least request to have your hands cuffed in front?

you can certainly ask, but it all comes down to what is reasonable under the circumstances. Pretty fuzzy.

bodger
03-22-2010, 4:34 PM
2 Weeks ago I was pulled over on redwood leaving Chabot range too; by Regional Parks Police. Officer told me that my 3rd brake light was out. I'd rather not post all the details, but they ended up checking the rifles. At first officer believed they were AW, due to no mag in the magwell. However when his supervisor came, the supervisor checked, saw the maglocks, and stated the rifles were GTG. we were on the side of redwood for over an hour while they "checked". My friends and I sat on the hood of the cruisers while they did their business. The officer that pulled me over was polite and explained everything that was happening. His cover unit wasn't so friendly, but the supervisor that showed up was very nice and seemed to be in the know in regards to OLL's. Hopefully the guys in question today had legally configured firearms.

Were the rifles in plain sight when they stopped you?

CEDaytonaRydr
03-22-2010, 4:54 PM
you can certainly ask, but it all comes down to what is reasonable under the circumstances. Pretty fuzzy.

I think that's a ridiculous conclusion to draw, when I hear cops say that...

"Sir, I'm going to handcuff you for my own safety."

:confused:

"Wow, officer! I didn't think I was any type of threat to you, seeing as you have a baton, a can of pepper spray, a tazer, a gun, 30 rounds of ammunition and a badge that gives you the authority to use any, or all of them. Who do you think I am? Chuck Norris???" :rolleyes:

2Bear
03-22-2010, 4:56 PM
At first officer believed they were AW, due to no mag in the magwell.

Alas. I should probably get one of those translucent 10rd mags to leave empty and locked in the magwell just for transpo purposes.

To which gov. agency can I send the invoice? Is there an Uninformed Detainment Division?

sytfu_RR
03-22-2010, 5:02 PM
OP, did you get a name to report to "the Right People"?
Looks like it's time for CGF to say hello to EBRP PD just as a reminder.

Must be really slow for these folks or they were asked to get some "income" for the dept.

Reminder to all folks. Make sure your vehicle is in good condition ie, all parts working. Carry the SAC PD memo with your firearms/OLLs.

I had the CGF flow chart as well as the Sac PD Memo, but since the SGT, cleared it all, I never bothered to bring them out. However in hindsight I should have left the officer with my copies, that way next time he hopefully can tell on his own.

Were the rifles in plain sight when they stopped you?

I drive an SUV, so he could see all the rifle cases stacked up in the back. However due to someone mentioning something the officer didn't ask about, the officer knew we had firearms in the vehicle anyways.

Kerplow
03-22-2010, 5:10 PM
I had the CGF flow chart as well as the Sac PD Memo, but since the SGT, cleared it all, I never bothered to bring them out. However in hindsight I should have left the officer with my copies, that way next time he hopefully can tell on his own.



I drive an SUV, so he could see all the rifle cases stacked up in the back. However due to someone mentioning something the officer didn't ask about, the officer knew we had firearms in the vehicle anyways.

why do people do this?

i was with a friend once when he got pulled over and the LEO asked him if he'd had anything to drink. the truth of the matter was, he had 1 beer over 6 hours ago. hes 6 ft, 250+.

i understand the concept of honesty being a good policy, but he could just as well have said NO and we would have been on our way. instead it was a FST and a very thorough search of the car. about an hour of our lives wasted all because he gave the officer information he didn't need to and should not have. he blew a .000;) the best part is he could have still gotten a DUI based solely on officer discretion and he offered somewhat of a confession to prove it.

ScorpioVI
03-22-2010, 5:22 PM
If an officer asks "Do you have any guns/knives/bazookas in the car?" are you legally obligated to answer that question truthfully?

Noobert
03-22-2010, 5:28 PM
If an officer asks "Do you have any guns/knives/bazookas in the car?" are you legally obligated to answer that question truthfully?

You are obligated to stay silent

wilit
03-22-2010, 5:53 PM
FYI, for anyone who has never been to Chabot or just haven't paid much attention, once you pass the golf course and start heading up the hill, the speed limit is 25. It is VERY easy to exceed this speed limit, and I have seen numerous LEO's sitting and waiting in the turn outs for speeders. It's a pretty popular motorcycle road, so it draws a lot of attention.

GrizzlyGuy
03-22-2010, 6:53 PM
If an officer asks "Do you have any guns/knives/bazookas in the car?" are you legally obligated to answer that question truthfully?

No, do this (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3551753&posted=1#post3551753) instead.

NorcalGSG
03-22-2010, 7:03 PM
OMG that is the funniest friggin' movie I have seen in awile sytfu_RR I love that Chris Rock video. Seriously, that was awesome!!!!!!!!!! Words to live by man.

Cos
03-22-2010, 7:20 PM
I went to the Chabot park for a walk yesterday around 4 o'clock and have seen two police cars and one bike gutting out some black sedan. I've seen some sort of bags on the hood of the stopped car, but haven't seen anyone handcuffed around it. That was about half way between the entrance to the park and the road fork before the range.

Perhaps was another incident - am not sure.

SJgunguy24
03-22-2010, 8:16 PM
FYI, for anyone who has never been to Chabot or just haven't paid much attention, once you pass the golf course and start heading up the hill, the speed limit is 25. It is VERY easy to exceed this speed limit, and I have seen numerous LEO's sitting and waiting in the turn outs for speeders. It's a pretty popular motorcycle road, so it draws a lot of attention.

Exactly why I posted what I did on page 1. I have a friend with ACSO who's pretty high up there and he warned me about Redwood road. I used to shoot IDPA and when I lived off B st in Hayward, Chabot was my spot.

Experimentalist
03-22-2010, 8:20 PM
FYI, for anyone who has never been to Chabot or just haven't paid much attention, once you pass the golf course and start heading up the hill, the speed limit is 25. It is VERY easy to exceed this speed limit, and I have seen numerous LEO's sitting and waiting in the turn outs for speeders. It's a pretty popular motorcycle road, so it draws a lot of attention.

Ooohhhhh....... it is so very, very tempting. When that winding road appears before you. Not that I've ever let my car rocket towards the sky in a turbocharged effort to slip the surly bonds of earth. No, 25 m.p.h. all the way for me. :)

Kerplow
03-22-2010, 9:28 PM
so the moral of the story is... when visiting the Cabot range be extra careful and mindful of traffic laws as the police are in full effect and they wanna see everybody's guns.

timdps
03-22-2010, 10:03 PM
so the moral of the story is... when visiting the Cabot range be extra careful and mindful of traffic laws as the police are in full effect and they wanna see everybody's guns.

+1

Only been there once and noticed the absolutely absurd 25 mph speed limit. It just reeked of speed trap, so I kept it to 25....

tim

CHS
03-23-2010, 7:01 AM
If an officer asks "Do you have any guns/knives/bazookas in the car?" are you legally obligated to answer that question truthfully?

Absolutely not.

You are free to lie and say "no sir", or you can deflect the question, or you can ignore it.

But you are not obligated in any way to answer truthfully.

Res
03-23-2010, 7:37 AM
Yea unfortunately it happened. I was thinking..great...maybe I should have all passengers in my vehicle watch this video.

*NSFW*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

uj0mtxXEGE8

Classic.

Also: Police carry Rock Islands now? :p 3:03

Gryff
03-23-2010, 7:46 AM
Absolutely not.

You are free to lie and say "no sir", or you can deflect the question, or you can ignore it.

But you are not obligated in any way to answer truthfully.

Er...lying to police isn't a smart policy. Memorize the following phrase, "I have nothing illegal in my car. I do not give you permission to search."

Barbarossa
03-23-2010, 7:51 AM
Lots of school zones heading down redwood...

CHS
03-23-2010, 8:27 AM
Er...lying to police isn't a smart policy. Memorize the following phrase, "I have nothing illegal in my car. I do not give you permission to search."

I would argue that lying to a police officer and simply stating "no" is far smarter than teeing them off by being a smart-aleck with a phrase like "I have nothing illegal in my car. I do not give you permission to search."

Gryff
03-23-2010, 8:37 AM
I would argue that lying to a police officer and simply stating "no" is far smarter than teeing them off by being a smart-aleck with a phrase like "I have nothing illegal in my car. I do not give you permission to search."

Do you know why Martha Stewart went to prison? It wasn't for Insider Trading. It was for lying to authorities during her interview.

I'm not saying it's a crime to lie about guns being in the car (I don't know if it is or is not). But cops do not have the right to search your car because you are being a "smart alek." And most cops know this.

CHS
03-23-2010, 8:41 AM
Do you know why Martha Stewart went to prison? It wasn't for Insider Trading. It was for lying to authorities during her interview.


Martha went to jail for lying when it was illegal to lie.

If a cop asks you a question because he's simply fishing, it's absolutely not illegal to lie to him.


I'm not saying it's a crime to lie about guns being in the car (I don't know if it is or is not). But cops do not have the right to search your car because you are being a "smart alek." And most cops know this.

It's not a crime.

I'm a fan of not being hassled by the police.

If a simple "no" is all it takes to not be hassled, then you're damn right I'm going to lie, especially when it's my right to and not in any way shape or form illegal.

If you like extended stays on the side of the road, feel free to be a smart-aleck. I'll wave to you as I'm driving by.

Texas Boy
03-23-2010, 9:02 AM
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but my layman's understanding of the law is lying to law enforcement is never legal. Taking the 5th, however, is legal, and much safer. As far as not being a smart alek, I like the statement offered by GrizzlyGuy the best:

'Hey officer, I know you're just doing your job, and I respect that. By law I'm not required to answer any of your questions, and I'm not going to, and I hope that you respect that as well'.

You acknowledge his question and his work while letting him know you have nothing to gain by answering and will therefore exercise your 5th amendment rights.

On the other hand, if you lied and said "no", and the officer spotted a casing, smelled gun powder, or some such, he would now had PC - because there was evidence you might have a gun AND you LIED to conceal the fact - giving him reason to suspect something illegal is afoot. When he then searches and finds guns, you are going to be in a lot more hot water because now he has caught you in a lie.

CHS
03-23-2010, 9:34 AM
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but my layman's understanding of the law is lying to law enforcement is never legal. Taking the 5th, however, is legal, and much safer. As far as not being a smart alek, I like the statement offered by GrizzlyGuy the best:


Nope. Lying is not illegal in most situations. Lying is sometimes the smartest thing to do. Especially if a cop is on a fishing expedition and asking questions he has no right or PC to.


On the other hand, if you lied and said "no", and the officer spotted a casing, smelled gun powder, or some such, he would now had PC - because there was evidence you might have a gun AND you LIED to conceal the fact - giving him reason to suspect something illegal is afoot. When he then searches and finds guns, you are going to be in a lot more hot water because now he has caught you in a lie.

Not really. You're still not going to get in trouble for lying to him. If you're ACTUALLY breaking the law, you will suffer those penalties, but there are no additional penalties for lying.

BigDogatPlay
03-23-2010, 9:41 AM
Not really. You're still not going to get in trouble for lying to him. If you're ACTUALLY breaking the law, you will suffer those penalties, but there are no additional penalties for lying.

Aside from getting arrested for obstructing, no, there's not. :)

Be polite, be respectful, be as forthcoming as you want to be, but outright lying will often come back to bite you on the rear end. And trying to play word games with the police is, usually, a recipe for a disaster.

POLICESTATE
03-23-2010, 9:43 AM
The 2 times I know you don't want to lie is when being questioned by a federal agent (so don't answer) and when you are under oath (so again don't answer)

That being said, I probably wouldn't lie to a LEO anyway, just not answer.

Glock22Fan
03-23-2010, 9:49 AM
Aside from getting arrested for obstructing, no, there's not. :)

Be polite, be respectful, be as forthcoming as you want to be, but outright lying will often come back to bite you on the rear end. And trying to play word games with the police is, usually, a recipe for a disaster.

You are only obstructing when your lies knowingly prevent an officer from finding out the facts about an actual crime. No crime to investigate? no obstruction.

Having said that, I don't advise lies. And yes, I have used "Officer, to the best of my knowledge there is nothing illegal in this boat" and, after repeating it a few times, ended up having a nice chat with the officer (actually British Customs & Excise, but if anyone knows them, they know that they have big teeth).

inbox485
03-23-2010, 10:34 AM
I'd say lying is a bad idea. I'd also say that not having a voice recorder on you at all times is a bad idea. Here's a youtube link for why:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/K3q7zXJ_yMc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/K3q7zXJ_yMc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
While I'm well aware that the majority of officers have this little thing called integrity, but just like criminals are the exception among civilians, there are bad cops. Getting them on record means that not only any false accusations they make against you go away, but everything they have ever submitted into evidence or testified to can be re-evaluated.

My response would be "I'm sorry, but I value my privacy. I'd prefer to resolve the reason I was stopped and be on my way." I try to avoid the "I do not consent to searches" lines.

POLICESTATE
03-23-2010, 10:43 AM
I would like some cybernetic eyes and ears that could record everything to a memory card in a hidden port in my noggin. There is so much random crap I would love to capture. Not to mention cybernetic eyes would really help with my long-range shot placement :43:

1BigPea
03-23-2010, 10:57 AM
Alas. I should probably get one of those translucent 10rd mags to leave empty and locked in the magwell just for transpo purposes.

To which gov. agency can I send the invoice? Is there an Uninformed Detainment Division?


Just leave a 10 round mag in with the bolt locked back...

CharAznable
03-23-2010, 10:58 AM
I love how the cops can lie to us but we're not supposed to lie to them. Yeah, that's fair.

SixPointEight
03-23-2010, 11:12 AM
The 2 times I know you don't want to lie is when being questioned by a federal agent (so don't answer) and when you are under oath (so again don't answer)

That being said, I probably wouldn't lie to a LEO anyway, just not answer.

How do you propose to not answer when they ask if you have a gun? Just stay silent? That's a good way to be in handcuffs on the side of the road, ask how I know.

My new answer is to lie and play with words, just like they do.

Do you have any guns or weapons in the car?
No(I have guns in the TRUNK, and a knife, but that's a tool)

Haven't had the displeasure of being pulled over since I've adopted this policy though.

Meplat
03-23-2010, 11:21 AM
Which is going to get you about ten times as close to a search as a white lie. If you are legal it is much better to be plausibly evasive. Then if it goes south you just say: "Oh, I thought you meant any illegal guns knives or bazookas."

Er...lying to police isn't a smart policy. Memorize the following phrase, "I have nothing illegal in my car. I do not give you permission to search."

2Bear
03-23-2010, 11:40 AM
Just leave a 10 round mag in with the bolt locked back...

Good point, but I do have a Wilson Combat Extended Oversized Bolt Catch Release installed in the vertical configuration. This can inadvertently release the bolt during transpo in my tactical case.

This image shows the product in the horizontal configuration...

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/bgprod/49095.jpg

1BigPea
03-23-2010, 11:45 AM
Good point, but I do have a Wilson Combat Extended Oversized Bolt Catch Release installed in the vertical configuration. This can inadvertently release the bolt during transpo in my tactical case.

This image shows the product in the horizontal configuration...



Oh I see...yeah you're definitely more prone to a release while packed away.

SteveH
03-23-2010, 11:50 AM
The Two relevant sections to be aware of when lying to the police in California are CPC 148.9 and CPC 529.3.

CPC 148.9 is a misdemeanor. Providing false ID to police when lawfuly detained.

CPC 529.3 is false impersonation, a felony. Such as giving the cops your brothers name when pulled over.

inbox485
03-23-2010, 11:50 AM
I would like some cybernetic eyes and ears that could record everything to a memory card in a hidden port in my noggin. There is so much random crap I would love to capture. Not to mention cybernetic eyes would really help with my long-range shot placement :43:

I've thought about getting a pen cam for that exact reason.

Meplat
03-23-2010, 11:54 AM
Do you know why Martha Stewart went to prison? It wasn't for Insider Trading. It was for lying to authorities during her interview.

I'm not saying it's a crime to lie about guns being in the car (I don't know if it is or is not). But cops do not have the right to search your car because you are being a "smart alek." And most cops know this.

Those were federal officers. Don't lie to the feds.

State and local officers you can lie to. I think there is a dichotomy here that is rarely addressed. If you have to shoot someone, or shoot at someone, or are involved in anything serious, dummy up, don't lie, but don't talk until you talk to your lawyer. Do it in the politest way you can, but dummy up.

On the other hand I think our amateur lawyers (not talking about the real lawyers we have, just schmucks like me) are overthinking this traffic stop thing. Cops have short patients for attitudes. I still say you are better off with a white lie than a canned response that reeks of attitude.

One of the big parts of law enforcement is writing reports that make everything they do look legal and proper, if not brilliant. It's their job. A big part of my job is writing reports and justifications, not LE related. Trust me, if they want to search the car, they will search the car, and they will have RS that will hold up, it may not be right but it's their job and they get good at it.

The trick is not to make them want to.

2Bear
03-23-2010, 11:54 AM
FWIW, I think the best reply is a variation on Inbox485's suggestion:

"Sir, I'd prefer to resolve the reason I was stopped and be on my way."

Less is more.

The officer may well assume you're an attorney with such a response.

If you're feeling randy you might add, "I respect you for your service sir. I wish I had applied to be an LEO when I was a younger man." And then go back to name, rank and serial number.

(This 'respect the LEO' line works better when you're twice the LEO's age...)

Soldier415
03-23-2010, 12:21 PM
Interested in hearing more details.

POLICESTATE
03-23-2010, 12:21 PM
I've thought about getting a pen cam for that exact reason.

Are they any good? What do they store to?

inbox485
03-23-2010, 1:31 PM
On the other hand I think our amateur lawyers (not talking about the real lawyers we have, just schmucks like me) are overthinking this traffic stop thing. Cops have short patients for attitudes. I still say you are better off with a white lie than a canned response that reeks of attitude.

Between the two, I agree, but lying should still be avoided. A lot of officers have a strong hunting instinct, and being a di<k to the police is like bundling up in bear fur and running in the forest on all fours during hunting season. Lying is like ducking down in the brush in the previously mentioned outfit. I there is an alternative to wearing bear fur or going naked (because you have "nothing to hide"), and that is wearing head to toe blaze orange. You aren't exposing yourself, but you aren't painting a target on your forehead.

FWIW, I think the best reply is a variation on Inbox485's suggestion:

"Sir, I'd prefer to resolve the reason I was stopped and be on my way."

Less is more.

The officer may well assume you're an attorney with such a response.

If you're feeling randy you might add, "I respect you for your service sir. I wish I had applied to be an LEO when I was a younger man." And then go back to name, rank and serial number.

(This 'respect the LEO' line works better when you're twice the LEO's age...)

I didn't elaborate on why I worded it the way I did, but perhaps I should. The phrase "I'm sorry, but I value my privacy. I'd prefer to resolve the reason I was stopped and be on my way." covers the statements:

Why am I being stopped?
Am I free to go?
I don't consent to any searches.

Without:
Sounding like a first year law dropout
being disrespectful
Avoiding or ignoring the question asked
Making any statements

inbox485
03-23-2010, 1:37 PM
Are they any good? What do they store to?

I imagine they are on par with a lot of cell phone video cameras. The ones Ive seen store to flash memory. I don't have one so I can't recomend specifics, but if you Google "pen camera" and "spy pen" you'll find a wealth of offerings. If you search for reviews, I'm sure somebody has posted sample videos from some of the cheaper models.

greasemonkey
03-23-2010, 2:14 PM
I have an audio recorder on my iPod Touch that seems to work pretty good.

2Bear
03-23-2010, 3:02 PM
Are they any good? What do they store to?

Warning: The site linked below is pretty awesome and may make you buy a lot of cool stuff you don't really need.

http://www.dealextreme.com/search.dx/search.video#812

OleCuss
03-23-2010, 3:13 PM
If an officer asks "Do you have any guns/knives/bazookas in the car?" are you legally obligated to answer that question truthfully?

I'd take this as a two part question/answer:

1. You are not obligated to answer at all. Saying something like, "I've identified myself and will not be answering questions and I do not consent to any search", is usually the best response.

2. If you do answer the question, you should do so truthfully. If you lie to them and they catch you out for some reason (like a stupid friend who answers questions) - they can get you for obstruction. The cops can lie to you but you don't get to lie to them.

CHS
03-23-2010, 3:31 PM
2. If you do answer the question, you should do so truthfully. If you lie to them and they catch you out for some reason (like a stupid friend who answers questions) - they can get you for obstruction. The cops can lie to you but you don't get to lie to them.

I don't know how many times this can be said, or how many ways it can be said, but no, that's not true.

You are well within your legal rights to lie to the cops. You cannot get in trouble for obstruction.

OleCuss
03-23-2010, 4:19 PM
I don't know how many times this can be said, or how many ways it can be said, but no, that's not true.

You are well within your legal rights to lie to the cops. You cannot get in trouble for obstruction.

Thank you for correcting me. I didn't know that.

I'd had lawyers, cops, etc. all telling me that lying to cops can get you in a world of hurt that way.

paul0660
03-23-2010, 4:25 PM
You cannot get in trouble for obstruction.

Unless you are in fact breaking a law.

HokeySon
03-23-2010, 4:47 PM
I would like some cybernetic eyes and ears that could record everything to a memory card in a hidden port in my noggin.

Nixon thought this was a great idea too. The problem is, although we all think we are law abiding citizens, nothing ever looks the same two months later. Frankly, the idea of my every move being captured for eternity scares me to death. In fact, the generation coming of age right now has so many issues that mine never had to deal with .... I am glad pictures from my fraternity parties never showed up on you tube!!

Oh, and it is a better policy not to lie to the cops, ... you never know what they already know. Say for example, the nice LEO was in the bushes and saw you load your AK into your trunk, but was no close enough to see if it was legal. He stops you ... you lie .... I think that would amount to PC for a search (and I have argued suppression motions BTW so I have some experience with what would fly and what would not). Plus the whole situation has now taken a turn for the worse as the LEO is going to know you are not above lying to him. Much better off to say you are not going to answer his questions and I really like the quote above ('Hey officer, I know you're just doing your job, and I respect that. By law I'm not required to answer any of your questions, and I'm not going to, and I hope that you respect that as well'.). But hey, your mileage may vary, so do what you think is best.

OleCuss
03-23-2010, 4:55 PM
Unless you are in fact breaking a law.

And that's the part that I've been told is the problem. If they search hard enough they will find something illegal - because the law is so complex and with so many built-in catches meant to nab you.

I watched the video "Don't talk to cops" (or something like that) and they pointed out a law which basically says that if you have some flora or fauna which is illegal to possess in any country - then you're screwed. So you have to know the law regarding those items in your possession for each of the U.S. states and territories and for each of the nearly 200 countries in the world in order to truthfully say that you have nothing illegal. There may be other laws which cover non-flora and -fauna stuff as well.

Net effect is that if the cop wants to get you and you answer his questions either truthfully or by lying you can get yourself into a world of hurt.

But I'm not the lawyer, I just listen to them (and imperfectly at that).

Edit: I'd note that to my knowledge I do not possess anything at all which I believe to be illegal, either at home, in my office, or in my vehicle. But not being a lawyer I might be wrong about that.

HokeySon
03-23-2010, 4:56 PM
I don't know how many times this can be said, or how many ways it can be said, but no, that's not true.

You are well within your legal rights to lie to the cops. You cannot get in trouble for obstruction.

I do not know where you got this idea ... but you are wrong. I have defended obstruction charges so I kind of know something about it.

Now, you are right to the extent that lying in and of itself to a STATE or LOCAL authority is no crime. But if there is some underlying crime and you lie about anything related to that (even arguably, tangentially related no matter how remote), you can get in trouble really fast.

Obstruction -- actually interference with a public officer's lawful duties -- is so nebulous that it can be charged for so many things you would be amazed. It can be charged, and you can be convicted of it, simply for warning someone else that there is a cop in the area.

Oh, and do not ever lie to the feds ... its a crime. In fact, don't talk to the feds at all if you can avoid it. They are very good at questioning and will likely get you turned around on some very simple thing and then ... they own you. used to joke about it at my old firm -- client calls and says some feds showed up asking questions, but everything is fine .... the agents were really nice and wanted to help me ... I told them all about it and they left ... told me everything was fine and if they needed anything else they would be in touch. Invariably, they (or the US Atty) was back in touch, and the nice agents weren't that helpful the second time around.

2Bear
03-23-2010, 5:06 PM
I'd had lawyers, cops, etc. all telling me that lying to cops can get you in a world of hurt that way.

While it's been posted on these forums before, if you haven't seen it, this is a very informative, albeit long, video on the potential ramifications of LEO interviews. Sadly, if you need to speak to LE regarding a crime, you should have a lawyer present, no matter what the situation. (Sadly for LE, not lawyers. :o )

My brother is still raving that this is the most worthwhile thing on YouTube.

Stay tuned for when the police officer comes on towards the end and confirms everything the lawyer says...

6wXkI4t7nuc

IGOTDIRT4U
03-23-2010, 5:21 PM
Last two posts are dead on.

BDS, I know you, and unless you can give us a realistic detail (law/case law) that makes you believe what you do, the best advice is what you just got. I have never disagreed with you in the past, but you are in a rabbit hole onthis one.

Please offer your details? (I'm not challenging you, just wondering where you go this idea)

2Bear
03-23-2010, 5:22 PM
I didn't elaborate on why I worded it the way I did, but perhaps I should. The phrase "I'm sorry, but I value my privacy. I'd prefer to resolve the reason I was stopped and be on my way." covers the statements:

Why am I being stopped?
Am I free to go?
I don't consent to any searches.

Without:
Sounding like a first year law dropout
being disrespectful
Avoiding or ignoring the question asked
Making any statements


Thanks for the elaboration. Very helpful. Your first sentence does indeed make good sense.

I also realized in this re-reading how much of this is all about demeanor. IME, a sincere preface of, "I'm really sorry officer," makes all the difference. Having a squeaky-clean record doesn't hurt either.

OleCuss
03-23-2010, 5:25 PM
While it's been posted on these forums before, if you haven't seen it, this is a very informative, albeit long, video on the potential ramifications of LEO interviews. Sadly, if you need to speak to LE regarding a crime, you should have a lawyer present, no matter what the situation. (Sadly for LE, not lawyers. :o )

My brother is still raving that this is the most worthwhile thing on YouTube.

Stay tuned for when the police officer comes on towards the end and confirms everything the lawyer says...

6wXkI4t7nuc

Thanx. That's the video I was referring to (but mis-identifying).

HokeySon
03-23-2010, 5:26 PM
Thanks for the elaboration. Very helpful. Your first sentence does indeed make good sense.

I also realized in this re-reading how much of this is all about demeanor. IME, a sincere preface of, "I'm really sorry officer," makes all the difference. Having a squeaky-clean record doesn't hurt either.


Inbox485's quote and the above say it best IMO.

2Bear
03-23-2010, 6:02 PM
So, in the interest of clarity...

•Lies OK if not obstructing justice. (Good luck with that.)

•Martha's interview was to SEC, SEC=Feds, so even without it being a "sworn" deposition, Lie=crime.

•In "sworn" circumstances, ie: depositions and on the stand, plead the 5th in lieu of lying.

HokeySon
03-23-2010, 6:13 PM
So, in the interest of clarity...

•Lies OK if not obstructing justice. (Good luck with that.)

•Martha's interview was to SEC, SEC=Feds, so even without it being a "sworn" deposition, Lie=crime.

•In "sworn" circumstances, ie: depositions and on the stand, plead the 5th in lieu of lying.

i'd say this is accurate.

But I would say again that the best practice is to be nice and either be quiet or tell the truth. You never know what the questioner knows and a motivated questioner is going to be able to catch you in a lie.

I would also add that in depositions (which only occur in civil matters) what I often say to clients is that I can deal with just about anything they say as long as it is the truth ... if they lie, there is precious little I can do to fix it.

Wild Squid
03-23-2010, 6:32 PM
Thank you for correcting me. I didn't know that.

I'd had lawyers, cops, etc. all telling me that lying to cops can get you in a world of hurt that way.

If you didn't know that, then why did you open your big mouth and speak about this sensitive subject like you were some kind of expert or something?

jtippins
03-23-2010, 7:01 PM
I was there on Friday afternoon and there were two vehicles at the entrance also searching a tan colored truck. One of the vehicles was a plain white SUV and the other looked like an Oakland or Hayward unit.

There were also two people sitting in cars at the range, top side, just sitting watching people load their cars. <paranoid>

As I pulled out of the park, I looked left and there was one more SUV black and whites about 100 feet off the road. Something must have spooked folks this weekend.

I also noted Friday that there was someone at the rifle range with what seemed to be a full auto, the range master kept calling them out for rapid fire, like 3 to 5 rounds per second - it happened three times.

Who knows? It spooked me a little to see all that activity that I did not go back this Monday. I hope this isn't the end for Chabot that someone is trying to make some busts on technicalities.

Wasn't planning a range trip today but at the last minute changed my mind and went to Chabot rifle range. Stayed for an hour. On my way out I saw a car pulled over by two motorcycle cops on the road into Chabot park. They had their gun bags on the hood of the vehicle and two fellas we're handcuffed sitting on the side of the road. Wondering if they might have gotten popped for some illegal guns. :confused:

HokeySon
03-23-2010, 7:18 PM
If you didn't know that, then why did you open your big mouth and speak about this sensitive subject like you were some kind of expert or something?

Maybe I shouldn't speak for him, but based on his other posts in this thread, I would say he was being sarcastic.

dfletcher
03-23-2010, 8:52 PM
I do not know where you got this idea ... but you are wrong. I have defended obstruction charges so I kind of know something about it.

Now, you are right to the extent that lying in and of itself to a STATE or LOCAL authority is no crime. But if there is some underlying crime and you lie about anything related to that (even arguably, tangentially related no matter how remote), you can get in trouble really fast.

Obstruction -- actually interference with a public officer's lawful duties -- is so nebulous that it can be charged for so many things you would be amazed. It can be charged, and you can be convicted of it, simply for warning someone else that there is a cop in the area.



If I understand correctly, if someone broke into the private home at Chabot & I was pulled over, when LE asked "where are you coming from?" if I lied, that could be obstruction. But if no crime had been committed in the area (something I could not know, I suppose) & LE asked "where are you coming from?" & I lied that would not be obstruction, correct?

HokeySon
03-23-2010, 9:02 PM
If I understand correctly, if someone broke into the private home at Chabot & I was pulled over, when LE asked "where are you coming from?" if I lied, that could be obstruction. But if no crime had been committed in the area (something I could not know, I suppose) & LE asked "where are you coming from?" & I lied that would not be obstruction, correct?

yup. its is hard to express the nuances adequately, but that is basically right. an easier illustration would be a plice officer asking if you have a gun in the car and you lie by saying you do not when you do. If the officer conducts a search (assume a legal search to keep the illustration simple) and you have an illegal assault rifle in the car, you could theoretically be charged and convicted of obstruction. If the officer finds a legally configured rifle in your car, your lie would not amount to obstruction.

Meplat
03-23-2010, 9:24 PM
[QUOTE=paul0660;4005580]Unless you are in fact (provably) Knowingly breaking a law.[/QUOTE

Fixed it for you

Meplat
03-23-2010, 9:29 PM
And that's the part that I've been told is the problem. If they search hard enough they will find something illegal - because the law is so complex and with so many built-in catches meant to nab you.

I watched the video "Don't talk to cops" (or something like that) and they pointed out a law which basically says that if you have some flora or fauna which is illegal to possess in any country - then you're screwed. So you have to know the law regarding those items in your possession for each of the U.S. states and territories and for each of the nearly 200 countries in the world in order to truthfully say that you have nothing illegal. There may be other laws which cover non-flora and -fauna stuff as well.

Net effect is that if the cop wants to get you and you answer his questions either truthfully or by lying you can get yourself into a world of hurt.

But I'm not the lawyer, I just listen to them (and imperfectly at that).

Edit: I'd note that to my knowledge I do not possess anything at all which I believe to be illegal, either at home, in my office, or in my vehicle. But not being a lawyer I might be wrong about that.

:hide::willy_nilly:

Meplat
03-23-2010, 9:35 PM
Jeez! Like I said before. You are over thinking a traffic stop.i'd say this is accurate.

But I would say again that the best practice is to be nice and either be quiet or tell the truth. You never know what the questioner knows and a motivated questioner is going to be able to catch you in a lie.

I would also add that in depositions (which only occur in civil matters) what I often say to clients is that I can deal with just about anything they say as long as it is the truth ... if they lie, there is precious little I can do to fix it.

inbox485
03-23-2010, 9:37 PM
Just a thought. There are speed trap laws in this state. Somebody up there might want to get a copy of the traffic study on that street to see what justification they have for the speed limit. If the speed is not enforceable, make it known in writing to both the LEAs that have jurisdiction and the city / county. Then if any body gets busted you have documentation saying that they knew the speed limit was not enforceable and any detainment based on speed limit violation is unlawful.

HokeySon
03-23-2010, 9:54 PM
Jeez! Like I said before. You are over thinking a traffic stop.

well, as I said before, do what you think is best.

oaklander
03-23-2010, 10:10 PM
I have been going to Chabot for years, and have never seen anyone use an FA weapon on the public range (or if they did, it was in SA mode only).

What you likely witnessed was a malfunctioning SA weapon. If a LPK is not installed correctly, or is out-of-spec, certain rifles will "double." This is easy to fix, and is revealed without even firing the gun by doing a simple function check.

The function check is the same for every SA weapon:

1) make sure the weapon is NOT loaded, and pointing in the "safest" direction (there is NO such thing as a "safe" direction). The magazine should not be in the weapon. Check the weapon several times to make sure it is not loaded. Put your finger in the empty chamber to verify that your eyes are not lying to you.

2) while holding the trigger down, pull back the bolt.

3) let the bolt slam forward while still holding the trigger down.

4) release the trigger VERY slowly (as slowly as you can), this is important.

5) the trigger should "reset" with an audible "click" and the hammer should NOT FALL WHEN YOU RELEASE THE TRIGGER.

6) pull the trigger now, and the hammer should fall.

You have TWO possible failure modes:

1) hammer falls when you release trigger - this is bad

2) hammer does not stay back when you release bolt into battery - this is also bad

If you have situation #1 above, what you have it a problem with the disconnector/hammer interface that creates a "sweet spot." This is essentially an FA weapon if you hold the trigger in that sweet spot. Very bad and entirely illegal.

If you have situation #2 above, you have the classic "hammer follow" problem. This is also bad, and creates an FA weapon that does not care how the trigger is pulled. Very illegal.

THE FOLLOWING IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE

Both situations above can subject you to LE involvement, even though the problems are entirely attributable to faulty equipment and/or wear. If you encounter either of these problems, disassemble the weapon immediately and take the parts to a gunsmith, or fix it yourself if you know what you are doing. If the problem is due to a defective part, you should exercise discretion, as mere possession of defective parts could be problematic, since constructive possession DOES apply to FA parts.

ETA: not only are these situations (failure modes) illegal, they are also dangerous to the operator and anyone nearby. True FA weapons have FCGs that are designed to not allow the weapon to fire out of battery. Defective SA weapons do not have this important safeguard.

I also noted Friday that there was someone at the rifle range with what seemed to be a full auto, the range master kept calling them out for rapid fire, like 3 to 5 rounds per second - it happened three times.

greasemonkey
03-23-2010, 11:05 PM
Isn't that just a bit shady?! Somethin don't seem right. Oak, I know you're not scared to go check this out and run a voice recorder!

I was there on Friday afternoon and there were two vehicles at the entrance also searching a tan colored truck. One of the vehicles was a plain white SUV and the other looked like an Oakland or Hayward unit.

There were also two people sitting in cars at the range, top side, just sitting watching people load their cars. <paranoid>

As I pulled out of the park, I looked left and there was one more SUV black and whites about 100 feet off the road. Something must have spooked folks this weekend.

I also noted Friday that there was someone at the rifle range with what seemed to be a full auto, the range master kept calling them out for rapid fire, like 3 to 5 rounds per second - it happened three times.

Who knows? It spooked me a little to see all that activity that I did not go back this Monday. I hope this isn't the end for Chabot that someone is trying to make some busts on technicalities.

oaklander
03-23-2010, 11:32 PM
Might make sense for someone to call EBRPD and ask what, if anything, is going on.

KevH
03-24-2010, 2:31 AM
This has to be one of the silliest threads I've ever seen on this forum full of a myriad of assumptions.

So the OP sees two motor cops pull over two guys, detain them and search their vehicle.

Nothing else about this stop is known.

You don't know if the driver had a traffic warrant, a criminal warrant, was driving on a suspended license, was on searchable probation or was involved in some other nefarious activity.

For all you know the guy could have threatened the range staff when he was called out on a safety infraction at the range. It's happened before.

You don't know anything regarding this stop.

I highly doubt the East Bay Regional Park Police has decided to sit outside Chabot and screw with law abiding gun owners. This seems a tad far fetched.

To quote Chris Rock contact with the police is fairly simple. "Obey the law" and "Be polite."

Yes, there are some cops that act like jackasses, but most of us aren't out here to be jerks. We certainly aren't out here to take guns away from law abiding citizens. I want to take guns away from gang-bangers and thugs, not Joe Citizen.

If you are stopped don't try to be a street lawyer and get in an argmuent with the police over what the officer can or can't do and don't lie. No matter how great you think you are you are not so great that a cop is going to risk his own civil liability on you. You aren't that great he or she is going to risk being sued so most of the decisions he or she is making are probably based upon sound case law and tactics.

...and if a cop says he is going to put you handcuffs for his safety then let him do it. If he's crossed the threshold that cuffs are coming out then getting in an argument or trying to fight him may get you hurt and with a charge of 148 PC. Just go along and if you haven't committed a crime they'll come off...and if you have then he obviously had good reason to put you in them anyway.

If you're transporting an Off List Lower or something else pushing the envelope of our crappy state firearms law than bring the Calguns chart with you. Chances are the cop has seen it before and will recognize it. If you're in my city the cop will probably have one in his or her Posse box anyway since it's part of our briefing training.

Always have your stuff secured the way it should be. If you are one of the open carry guys make sure your crap is all locked up while you're rolling around in your car. If the cop asks to hold on to your gun during the stop don't get in a huge argument over it. People do weird crap, he doesn't know you and it is safer for all parties involved if he holds on to it until the stop is over with and he gives it back.

I'll say it again...don't break the law and be polite and you'll have nothing to worry about.

B Strong
03-24-2010, 5:07 AM
This has to be one of the silliest threads I've ever seen on this forum full of a myriad of assumptions.

So the OP sees two motor cops pull over two guys, detain them and search their vehicle.

Nothing else about this stop is known.

You don't know if the driver had a traffic warrant, a criminal warrant, was driving on a suspended license, was on searchable probation or was involved in some other nefarious activity.

For all you know the guy could have threatened the range staff when he was called out on a safety infraction at the range. It's happened before.

You don't know anything regarding this stop.

I highly doubt the East Bay Regional Park Police has decided to sit outside Chabot and screw with law abiding gun owners. This seems a tad far fetched.

To quote Chris Rock contact with the police is fairly simple. "Obey the law" and "Be polite."

Yes, there are some cops that act like jackasses, but most of us aren't out here to be jerks. We certainly aren't out here to take guns away from law abiding citizens. I want to take guns away from gang-bangers and thugs, not Joe Citizen.

If you are stopped don't try to be a street lawyer and get in an argmuent with the police over what the officer can or can't do and don't lie. No matter how great you think you are you are not so great that a cop is going to risk his own civil liability on you. You aren't that great he or she is going to risk being sued so most of the decisions he or she is making are probably based upon sound case law and tactics.

...and if a cop says he is going to put you handcuffs for his safety then let him do it. If he's crossed the threshold that cuffs are coming out then getting in an argument or trying to fight him may get you hurt and with a charge of 148 PC. Just go along and if you haven't committed a crime they'll come off...and if you have then he obviously had good reason to put you in them anyway.

If you're transporting an Off List Lower or something else pushing the envelope of our crappy state firearms law than bring the Calguns chart with you. Chances are the cop has seen it before and will recognize it. If you're in my city the cop will probably have one in his or her Posse box anyway since it's part of our briefing training.

Always have your stuff secured the way it should be. If you are one of the open carry guys make sure your crap is all locked up while you're rolling around in your car. If the cop asks to hold on to your gun during the stop don't get in a huge argument over it. People do weird crap, he doesn't know you and it is safer for all parties involved if he holds on to it until the stop is over with and he gives it back.

I'll say it again...don't break the law and be polite and you'll have nothing to worry about.

It happened for a period of time back in the 1980's - somebody didn't like the advent of three-gun matches and/or black rifles in general.

The club newsletter went out with a warning to members that the Park Police were stopping vehicles coming and going, and going for consent searchs.

greasemonkey
03-24-2010, 6:28 AM
KevH, I understand your frustration with 'cop bashing' threads and this just isn't one of them. Thank you for your knowledge in the OLL arena and recognizing case law. Your post comes across as "cut it out with the constitutional rights bit, STFU and just do what I want and you'll be free to go soon enough."
I understand from your perspective that you just want to catch thugs, setting up 4+ units at a range is pushing reason just a bit.

When I set up a booth for a 3 day 100k+ attendant expo here in the central valley, you should've seen how many LEO's who love recreational shooting/hunting thought we were displaying what non-LE can't own in CA, it's easier for us to figure out how to play your game and exercise our rights in order to not be searched than it is to find out that this officer doesn't know the law and we're now being arrested for an AW, remember not all of them are as knowledgable and professional as yourself. If you'll notice, the conversation in this thread is honed in on how to know our rights and interact in a way that we're not being rude or condescending.

If you believe that us 'lesser folk' knowing/using our rights is a problem, that's exactly the mindset that is a problem.

greasemonkey
03-24-2010, 6:34 AM
Camping out at a range and pulling nearly everyone over to see if a crime has been committed is not okay.

pMcW
03-24-2010, 6:36 AM
Good point, but I do have a Wilson Combat Extended Oversized Bolt Catch Release installed in the vertical configuration. This can inadvertently release the bolt during transpo in my tactical case...

I've started to use these:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=535054

Like so:
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OleCuss
03-24-2010, 7:58 AM
This has to be one of the silliest threads I've ever seen on this forum full of a myriad of assumptions.

So the OP sees two motor cops pull over two guys, detain them and search their vehicle.

Nothing else about this stop is known.

You don't know if the driver had a traffic warrant, a criminal warrant, was driving on a suspended license, was on searchable probation or was involved in some other nefarious activity.

For all you know the guy could have threatened the range staff when he was called out on a safety infraction at the range. It's happened before.

You don't know anything regarding this stop.

I highly doubt the East Bay Regional Park Police has decided to sit outside Chabot and screw with law abiding gun owners. This seems a tad far fetched.

To quote Chris Rock contact with the police is fairly simple. "Obey the law" and "Be polite."

Yes, there are some cops that act like jackasses, but most of us aren't out here to be jerks. We certainly aren't out here to take guns away from law abiding citizens. I want to take guns away from gang-bangers and thugs, not Joe Citizen.

If you are stopped don't try to be a street lawyer and get in an argmuent with the police over what the officer can or can't do and don't lie. No matter how great you think you are you are not so great that a cop is going to risk his own civil liability on you. You aren't that great he or she is going to risk being sued so most of the decisions he or she is making are probably based upon sound case law and tactics.

...and if a cop says he is going to put you handcuffs for his safety then let him do it. If he's crossed the threshold that cuffs are coming out then getting in an argument or trying to fight him may get you hurt and with a charge of 148 PC. Just go along and if you haven't committed a crime they'll come off...and if you have then he obviously had good reason to put you in them anyway.

If you're transporting an Off List Lower or something else pushing the envelope of our crappy state firearms law than bring the Calguns chart with you. Chances are the cop has seen it before and will recognize it. If you're in my city the cop will probably have one in his or her Posse box anyway since it's part of our briefing training.

Always have your stuff secured the way it should be. If you are one of the open carry guys make sure your crap is all locked up while you're rolling around in your car. If the cop asks to hold on to your gun during the stop don't get in a huge argument over it. People do weird crap, he doesn't know you and it is safer for all parties involved if he holds on to it until the stop is over with and he gives it back.

I'll say it again...don't break the law and be polite and you'll have nothing to worry about.

You actually sound like the kind of cop I like to deal with.

I agree that it is too easy to speculate about the stop that started the thread - but the rest of it is mostly figuring out how to properly interact with cops in such a way that neither of us is subject to too much bother.

Some cops do weird stuff. I was once on a freeway and from a hilltop saw a highway patrol car pulled off to the side with another vehicle. I figured it was a routine traffic stop and I pulled into the left hand lane for safety and security purposes at least 1/4 of a mile before I arrived at the scene. Just before I get to the scene the cop pulls back onto the freeway, cuts into the left hand lane and then into the median, turns on the lights and pulls me over saying that I tried to cut him off! I was driving an old gutless diesel car and couldn't have even dreamed of outperforming a cop car! I don't for a moment doubt I'd have been cited and maybe arrested but I had 3 friends with me who backed me up all the way. I still can't figure out what was going on in his head.

When my CAARNG battalion went to Iraq (as I went to Afghanistan) the biggest problem with discipline and corruption was with LA area cops who were with one of our companies. They were actually running protection rackets!

I love a good cop and count several as friends. Unfortunately, cops tend to have certain behaviors excused/legalized and many begin to think they should not have to follow the laws the rest of us must follow. It is a corrupting situation and it takes a better than average person to stay a good and strictly honest cop.

Oh, and I have quite a few LEO's who are acquaintances. I regularly thank them for their service because I truly do appreciate what you all do.

Thank you for all that you do - including hanging out with us on this forum to add your perspective.

Remember one other thing. If you ever need someone to watch your back - I'd bet at least 95% of those on this forum would risk life and limb to save yours.

Blackhawk556
03-24-2010, 9:00 AM
The Two relevant sections to be aware of when lying to the police in California are CPC 148.9 and CPC 529.3.

CPC 148.9 is a misdemeanor. Providing false ID to police when lawfuly detained.

CPC 529.3 is false impersonation, a felony. Such as giving the cops your brothers name when pulled over.


holy crap my friend did this, he swears he can still buy a gun. I better pass the info to him. He thinks he didn't get charged for this but i'm not sure if he's 100% sure.

i'll give him a call and give him the bad news

KevH
03-24-2010, 9:33 AM
If EBRPD is indeed hanging out outside of Chabot and pulling over cars with the sole intent of trying to search cars for weapons and then check the legality of the guns they find then I disagree with what they're doing and it would quite frankly piss me off a bit.

Let's just hope there is a bit more to the story of these two guys.

greasemonkey-

I've learned more from 3-gunners in terms of both equipment and shooting then I care to admit and I'm sorry if they were screwing with you guys. I believe that being aware of your rights is part of being a complete citizen. What I'm trying to get at in my post is that trying to argue with the cop in the field is rarely going to go well. The better forum is to argue it in court later on.

Ron-Solo
03-24-2010, 9:36 AM
holy crap my friend did this, he swears he can still buy a gun. I better pass the info to him. He thinks he didn't get charged for this but i'm not sure if he's 100% sure.

i'll give him a call and give him the bad news

It it often only charged as a misdemeanor, so he may be good to go; BUT, it can be charged as a felony and is listed that way at the time of booking.

Merc1138
03-24-2010, 9:51 AM
Ok, so 112 posts into this thread and we've managed to conclude nothing.

Someone saw some people pulled over and gun bags were on the hood of the car.

Other people saw black and whites near a shooting range(as if this is a rare occurrence, they use the range too).

No one has heard anything that indicates the stop was due to firearms.

For all we know the people got stopped for speeding on a road where people commonly break the speed limit, and then someone in the car said "yes, we have guns in the back" so the cops took a look. We don't even know if anything was confiscated, someone went to jail, car impounded, or even a ticket issued.

This is nothing but an exercise in paranoia.

Texas Boy
03-24-2010, 10:39 AM
KevH,

I agree - we don't know anything really about this stop. The discussion has morphed more into how do deal with a stop, what exactly are your rights and obligations, etc.

I also agree that being rude or a wise guy is going to get you no where fast. Let me also thank you for your service, the difficult job you perform, and for participating in this discussion.

When an officer makes a stop, most of the time he doesn't know if the person stopped is a psyko criminal or an honest law abiding citizen. He or she may be legitimately concerned for his/her safety. Most people are good, law abiding people, but it only takes one bad one to get you killed. And don't forget, the officers job is to arrest people braking the law.

Unfortunately, the motorist is in a similar same dilemma. Most cops are honest, and many are well informed. But there are bad and corrupt cops, and plenty of ill informed cops too. And the laws are stacked against the citizen. If he doesn't know the law, he can go to jail, and if the officer doesn't know the law, the citizen can go to jail (and endure the expense and hassle of correcting the mistake). The officer has all the cards except one - the citizen don't have to answer questions or give consent for a search.

So what is being advocated here, and in numerous web sites, Youtube videos, and advice from legal professionals (and I am by NO means a legal professional), is to politely exercise your 5th amendment rights. Quite honestly, I would love to assist the police in finding the bad guys and make sure they don't waste time pursuing the wrong people (like me). But the way the laws are written, answering questions and consenting to searches risks everything and gains me nothing.

Gorblimey is correct - recent developments like the "Patriot act" and the "war on drugs" show a disturbing trend of eroding individual rights. These laws designed to make it easier for LE to catch the bad guys, are slowly leading us down the road to a police state and create an us vs them atmosphere.
I see this forum and the CGF as an effort to push back on this trend and preserve what made this country great. I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, the 2A is just the canary in the coal mine for me - I want my children and grandchildren to have the rights and freedoms I at least thought I had when I was young.

HokeySon
03-24-2010, 12:33 PM
What I'm trying to get at in my post is that trying to argue with the cop in the field is rarely going to go well. The better forum is to argue it in court later on.

quoted for their truth.

Told my son the exact same thing a little while ago.

Glock-matic
03-24-2010, 2:49 PM
Perhaps it is a good idea to ask, "Can I legally say no" when asked to be searched. It will tell you a lot about the officer and their motivations and could give you atty something to use later. Also, you are allowed to specify areas to be searched and can terminate the search at any time. The officer could search anything at anytime; however, if he does so illegally, and without your consent, it may not be used against you in a court. Police are allowed to search the immediate area around the occupants for weapons that are a danger to the officer without PC or without your permission, perhaps a good reason to keep your gun cases locked and in the trunk, remember, out of sight, out of mind.

If you say I don't consent to a search, and quizzed for a reason why, tell them you've heard these searches take too long and you need to get moving. Or, you can say that you don't feel comfortable with strangers going through your things. Try not to make a Supreme Court case out of it, give a reasonable reason that doesn't make you sound guilty or like a smart *** and move on.

Keep a cool head, don't get agitated, if they are making you feel uncomfortable at any point, ask to have a supervisor or Sergeant present.

Foefinga
03-24-2010, 3:57 PM
Wasn't planning a range trip today but at the last minute changed my mind and went to Chabot rifle range. Stayed for an hour. On my way out I saw a car pulled over by two motorcycle cops on the road into Chabot park. They had their gun bags on the hood of the vehicle and two fellas we're handcuffed sitting on the side of the road. Wondering if they might have gotten popped for some illegal guns. :confused:

To let you guys know it was my cousin and I if this incident happened 3-21-10 from about 2:30-4:30pm. My cousin had just got his scope and wanted to sight it in so we went. Our guns were legal store bought. He had a basic gsg5 and i had a sig 522. Again they are LEGAL with no mods. What sucks the most was we didnt get to shoot. I'd like to tell more but i have to get ready for work so ill check back again later.

inbox485
03-24-2010, 4:17 PM
To let you guys know it was my cousin and I if this incident happened 3-21-10 from about 2:30-4:30pm. My cousin had just got his scope and wanted to sight it in so we went. Our guns were legal store bought. He had a basic gsg5 and i had a sig 522. Again they are LEGAL with no mods. What sucks the most was we didnt get to shoot. I'd like to tell more but i have to get ready for work so ill check back again later.

Chances are you probably should not tell more until you have had a chance to discuss the matter with one of the right people.

ivanimal
03-24-2010, 4:18 PM
PM sent please call me.

Please let us talk to him before posting questions. I dont wish to close the thread.

greasemonkey
03-24-2010, 5:21 PM
Foefinga, you and your cousin are now in good hands, glad you checked the forum here and I hope this goes well for you guys!

2Bear
03-24-2010, 6:06 PM
I've started to use these:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=535054
]

I LIKE it.

Ordering...

OrovilleTim
03-24-2010, 6:16 PM
Ok, so 112 posts into this thread and we've managed to conclude nothing.

S.O.P.

Foefinga
03-24-2010, 6:51 PM
Hello calgun members. I just spoke with Ivan and was advised not to get to deep into it. Long story short is everything is worked out and we got our guns back.

2Bear
03-24-2010, 6:54 PM
KevH, <...> Your post comes across as "cut it out with the constitutional rights bit, STFU and just do what I want and you'll be free to go soon enough."

That's not how I interpreted KevH's post. The way he set it up I felt he effectively stated that because you don't know who you're dealing with, and being an LEO myself, my best advice is to do <this and that> and you'll be more inclined to have a nice day.

I find this is often the problem with text conversations versus face-to-face. We humans are good at picking up subtleties in F2F dialog, and hence the online medium is in effect prone to a wider range interpretations. For instance sarcasm often conveys quite poorly online, (without a smiley.)

This is actually why the smiley was first adopted: to clarify sarcasm and the like.

Never underestimate the power of Smiley. :)

ivanimal
03-24-2010, 7:52 PM
Looks like all ended as it should have, except for time spent dealing with the issue. Thread now closed.