PDA

View Full Version : LUCC and police interaction


Chatterbox
03-21-2010, 5:52 PM
So my friend had a question....

OK, I have a question. :) What are your responsibilities during interaction with the police during something like a Terry stop, if you are LUCCing. Are you required to open the container containing the firearm? Could the act of unlocking the container invalidate your LUCC defense?

The reason I ask is that I recently caught a story on NPR about how NYPD has hugely boosted number of people arrested for marijuana posession. A bit of background - in NY, it's legal to possess small quantities of marijuana out of public view. The story below describes the rest:

http://www.cannabisnews.com/news/24/thread24966.shtml
Here's how the police do it. NYPD commanders direct officers to stop and question many young people and make arrests for possessing "contraband." In 2008, the NYPD made more than half a million recorded stop and frisks and an unknown number of unrecorded stops, disproportionately in black, Latino and low-income neighborhoods. By far, the most common contraband young people might possess is a small amount of marijuana.

According to U.S. Supreme Court decisions, police are allowed to thoroughly pat down the outside of someone's clothing looking for a gun, which is bulky and easy to detect. But police cannot legally search inside a person's pockets and belongings without permission or probable cause.

However, police officers can legally make false statements to people they stop, and officers can trick people into revealing things. So in a stern, authoritative voice, NYPD officers will say to the young people they stop:

"We're going to have to search you. If you have anything illegal you should show it to us now. If we find something when we search you, you'll have to spend the night in jail. But if you show us what you have now, maybe we can just give you a ticket. And if it’s nothing but a little weed, maybe we can let you go. So if you’ve got anything you’re not supposed to have, take it out and show it now.”

When police say this, the young people usually take out their small amount of marijuana and hand it over. Their marijuana is now "open to public view." And that – having a bit of pot out and open to be seen – technically makes it a crime, a fingerprintable offense. And for cooperating with the police, the young people are handcuffed and jailed.


It seems to me a potentially similar legal point. The moment the firearm has been brought out in the open, you're at best UOC (at worst - brandishing or something similar) and are subject to GFSZ prosecution etc.
What do y'all think?

AJAX22
03-21-2010, 6:09 PM
They would need Probable cause or a warrant to open the box.

Its locked... don't open it.

Be polite, be firm, and tell them its none of their business.

socalblue
03-21-2010, 6:16 PM
By consenting to the search you would not generally be liable for any crime opening the case would otherwise bring. GFSZ (626.9PC) is a different matter, as it prohibits possession of firearms within 1,000ft unless authorized, except or on private property.

adamsreeftank
03-21-2010, 6:58 PM
Tell them your attorney keeps the conbination for the lock, and you will need to call him to open it.

If they have a right to open it, they will find a way to get it open. Asking you if they can take a look, or to check if it's loaded is a shortcut via you giving up your rights.

stag1500
03-21-2010, 7:00 PM
By consenting to the search you would not generally be liable for any crime opening the case would otherwise bring. GFSZ (626.9PC) is a different matter, as it prohibits possession of firearms within 1,000ft unless authorized, except or on private property.

If it's unloaded and in a locked container, it doesn't matter if you're within 1000ft of a school or not.

Liberty1
03-21-2010, 7:58 PM
and carry a recorder!!

hoffmang
03-21-2010, 8:44 PM
A Terry stop doesn't allow a police officer to open e.g. a locked briefcase. You aren't "armed and dangerous" if the arm is inside a locked container.

DO NOT CONSENT TO THE SEARCH. If they search anyway, it's well worth it to have a damaged and formerly locked container.

-Gene

Shotgun Man
03-21-2010, 9:42 PM
A Terry stop doesn't allow a police officer to open e.g. a locked briefcase. You aren't "armed and dangerous" if the arm is inside a locked container.

DO NOT CONSENT TO THE SEARCH. If they search anyway, it's well worth it to have a damaged and formerly locked container.

-Gene

And also keep in mind, if you're asked if you have any weapons, you can honestly answer "no," because a reasonable person would not think that a locked, unloaded firearm, not readily fireable, is a weapon.

GrizzlyGuy
03-21-2010, 9:47 PM
Avoid the whole scenario: Don't talk to cops (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=3551753&posted=1#post3551753).

Lone_Gunman
03-21-2010, 9:54 PM
you -"I do not consent to any warrantless search of my person or my property"

cop-"What's in the case."

you-"Private property."

cop-"What do you have to hide?

you-"Am I being detained or am I free to go?"

corrupt
03-21-2010, 9:58 PM
I loves you, Gene.

Untamed1972
03-22-2010, 10:22 AM
you -"I do not consent to any warrantless search of my person or my property"

cop-"What's in the case."

you-"Private property."

cop-"What do you have to hide?

you-"Am I being detained or am I free to go?"

cop-"What do you have to hide?

Would an acceptable answer be "Naked pictures of your wife!" LOL

adamsreeftank
03-22-2010, 11:16 AM
cop-"What do you have to hide?

Would an acceptable answer be "Naked pictures of your wife!" LOL

Only if you want to be tased - bro!

:p

choprzrul
03-22-2010, 11:30 AM
cop-"What do you have to hide?

Would an acceptable answer be "Naked pictures of your wife!" LOL

Only if you want to be proned out bro'

AJAX22
03-22-2010, 12:35 PM
Hrmmmmm..... Why am I suddenly tempted to walk around In downtown NYC with a padlocked pistol case containing a soiled marital aid?

Frisk me baby.... I dare ya ;)

Jk

unusedusername
03-22-2010, 12:43 PM
LUECC

"Locked Unloaded Eww Concealed Carry"

grammaton76
03-22-2010, 1:33 PM
One of the primary defenses LUCC has, is that the only way for an officer to get into the case without a warrant OR the cooperation of an IDIOT (LUCCer willing to open it), pretty much automatically throws away the evidence over lack of due process.

vrand
03-22-2010, 7:32 PM
And also keep in mind, if you're asked if you have any weapons, you can honestly answer "no," because a reasonable person would not think that a locked, unloaded firearm, not readily fireable, is a weapon.

Good point :thumbsup:

Texas Boy
03-22-2010, 7:46 PM
And also keep in mind, if you're asked if you have any weapons, you can honestly answer "no," because a reasonable person would not think that a locked, unloaded firearm, not readily fireable, is a weapon.

Better to just decline to answer ANY questions. "I'm sorry officer, I'm not going to answer any questions. Am I free to go?" should be the response.

Remember, LE can legally lie to you and use intimidation tactics, and it is a crime for you to lie to them. Avoid this trap by simply refusing to answer any questions or consent to any search.

BillCA
03-22-2010, 8:37 PM
The main question is why he wants to look inside a locked container in the first place. But since we're futzing around, let's suppose your "locked container" is obviously for a firearm. It's the Blue Sig/S&W box or a gun-rug with a padlock on the zippers, etc. So the cop isn't dumb.

If he asks what's in the "gun rug" or "gun box", which do you think is the best answer:
a) Personal property
b) My Ruger GP-100, unloaded.
c) Why do you call it a gun-[whatever]?
d) I am not required to answer your questions. Am I free to go?

If the cop says he believes there is a weapon in the container and he "can check to see if it is loaded" he's full of goosecrap. A locked container will require a warrant to open. A non-descript container, such as a briefcase, makes it even harder for him to articulate any PC for opening it. Even a standard rectangular "aluminum" 4-gun case could hold camera gear (especially with the Nikon sticker on it) or computer hard drives.