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View Full Version : Lead ammo ban exemption for defense?


freshdesigns@hotmail.com
03-21-2010, 3:23 PM
Is there an exemption in the CA condor lead-free zone for self defense against bear or other animals (including 2-legged animals!)? If I'm out camping, and I use HARD CAST bullets for self defense against bear or cougar, is this an issue (if I'm in "the zone")?

rromeo
03-21-2010, 3:34 PM
Isn't the lead ban from the DF&G? If you're defending yourself, you're not hunting.

acanales
03-21-2010, 5:28 PM
Is there an exemption in the CA condor lead-free zone for self defense against bear or other animals (including 2-legged animals!)? If I'm out camping, and I use HARD CAST bullets for self defense against bear or cougar, is this an issue (if I'm in "the zone")?


There is no "exemption" for self defense uses against animal threats. The law and subsequent regulations involve the take of big game animals (bears) or non game mammals (mountain lions) where ammunition containing less than 1% lead are required if one is in the designated zone.

On the other hand, this is one of those complicating issues (the idea of self defense) being that one does not swap out lead ammunition suitable for self defense against humans for "nontoxic" ammunition because a bear or mountain lion happens to be charging you in the foothills of Kern or Tulare County.

The best recourse here is to call Chuck Michel at 562-216-4444 and get his learned legal opinion.

Respectfully,

Anthony Canales

freshdesigns@hotmail.com
09-18-2011, 12:44 PM
So no use of cast bullets if in bear country, huh? The best bullets for penetrating charging animals would probably be cast bullets to penetrate skull. But I guess as long as the "possibility" of saving a condor is worth a human life or two, it's worth it! ;)

Purple K
09-18-2011, 1:58 PM
You may use lead bullets in the condor zone as long as you're not hunting. Paper targets=ok. Tin cans=ok. Self defense=ok. Anything but hunting

freshdesigns@hotmail.com
09-18-2011, 2:08 PM
What if it's "Bear season", you're camping but not hunting, and you need to defend yourself (ok, ok, we all know it's unlikely). Can't a case be made against you?

ALSystems
09-18-2011, 2:43 PM
What if it's "Bear season", you're camping but not hunting, and you need to defend yourself (ok, ok, we all know it's unlikely). Can't a case be made against you?
May sure you drag the dead bear inside your tent, so it's a clear case of self defense. :rolleyes:

BigFatGuy
09-18-2011, 5:06 PM
Bears are pretty big, so there are 10 S's instead of 3.
Shoot, Shoot, Shoot, Shoot, Shovel, Shovel, Shovel, Shovel, Shovel, Shut up

tenpercentfirearms
09-18-2011, 5:13 PM
LOL. This thread takes the cake. If a bear or mountain lion are charging you, shoot them!!! Who gives a damn if the DFG wants to issue you a $500 fine for shooting a bear without a tag with leaded ammo. It is self-defense.

If it makes you feel better, carry non-leaded ammo when wandering around the woods of the Condor Zone. Unless I am hunting, I don't care. I also know the odds of me having to shoot a bear or a mountain lion are so slim that I am not going to pack non-lead ammo just in case. If they are a life endangering threat, just shoot them.

Fjold
09-18-2011, 7:08 PM
If you are not hunting there is no requirement to have lead free ammo.

To be hunting, you must have a hunting license and a bear tag. If you are camping and it's not bear season or you don't have all of the listed paperwork, then you're not hunting.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

hangman7
09-18-2011, 7:47 PM
When I'm deer hunting in the condor zone I have unleaded rifle ammo, and a 44 Mag with Barnes copper slugs and a 12 gauge with unleaded buckshot for camp security. There is ample bear sign around there. This tree is 6' off the ground and regularly marked by a bear. But when scouting/camping not hunting we shoot lead.


http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu335/hangman7/IMG_2953.jpg

bwiese
09-18-2011, 9:37 PM
I believe this may have to be litigated by CRPA Foundation. There has been an ongoing but unsatisfactory dance with F&G.

F&G does really not recognize self-defense right (guaranteed by Heller/McDonald), and is overextending its reach via underground regulation [possession of ammo not being used for hunting and fired only in gravest extreme] and extending their control beyond reach of F&G arena.

cdtx2001
09-19-2011, 6:27 AM
I believe this may have to be litigated by CRPA Foundation. There has been an ongoing but unsatisfactory dance with F&G.

F&G does really not recognize self-defense right (guaranteed by Heller/McDonald), and is overextending its reach via underground regulation [possession of ammo not being used for hunting and fired only in gravest extreme] and extending their control beyond reach of F&G arena.

Sounds like they need a smack down.

freshdesigns@hotmail.com
09-19-2011, 7:37 AM
I believe this may have to be litigated by CRPA Foundation. There has been an ongoing but unsatisfactory dance with F&G.

F&G does really not recognize self-defense right (guaranteed by Heller/McDonald), and is overextending its reach via underground regulation [possession of ammo not being used for hunting and fired only in gravest extreme] and extending their control beyond reach of F&G arena.

I'm unaware of this battle. Just to clarify:
1. Is there an existing exemption in law for "possessing and using lead ammo in gravest extreme"?
2. Fish and Game is not recognizing that exemption for self-defense and CRPA is fighting them because of citations or prosecutions bu F&G for this?
3. What do you mean by "underground regulation"?

Thank you for info! I'm looking to make some ammunition purchases and, as you know, it's not cheap these days. So before I spend more money on hard cast bullets, want to know if I'm tossing money away.

Wrangler John
09-19-2011, 8:38 AM
Just as hangman7 says, use lead free bullets in the lead free area to avoid drama. When I varmint hunt in the lead free zone, I use lead free rifle bullets and sometimes carry a .480 Ruger revolver with Federal ammo loaded with Barnes XPB all copper bullets. While these cartridges are expensive ($60.00 + for 20 rounds) and the Barnes XPB bullets in .475 caliber run a tad over $1.00 each for handloading, it's still much cheaper than splitting hairs with bureaucrats over what's legal.

My policy is that all ammunition in my possession while in the lead free area is in compliance. I do not carry any lead ammunition, including any ammunition that does not chamber in the guns I am carrying at the time. Most likely, having lead ammo for a handgun and relying on, "It's for self-defense I'm not hunting with it," will result in a citation and confiscation of the ammo for testing. Why waste time and treasure to defend that position?

YubaRiver
09-19-2011, 8:41 AM
You must use lead free ammo if defending yourself against a condor.

freshdesigns@hotmail.com
09-19-2011, 9:06 AM
Are Barnes solid copper bullets as effective as hard cast for defensive purposes (not hunting), like penetrating skull or breaking bones? This would be in 10mm and 44 mag pistol caliber and 30-30 and 45-70 in long gun.

SwissFluCase
09-19-2011, 9:48 AM
I believe this may have to be litigated by CRPA Foundation. There has been an ongoing but unsatisfactory dance with F&G.

F&G does really not recognize self-defense right (guaranteed by Heller/McDonald), and is overextending its reach via underground regulation [possession of ammo not being used for hunting and fired only in gravest extreme] and extending their control beyond reach of F&G arena.

I think someone getting busted with a Khar P380 with lead ammo would make an interesting test case...

Regards,


SwissFluCase

Wrangler John
09-20-2011, 12:59 AM
Are Barnes solid copper bullets as effective as hard cast for defensive purposes (not hunting), like penetrating skull or breaking bones? This would be in 10mm and 44 mag pistol caliber and 30-30 and 45-70 in long gun.

Yes. While it is impossible to predict how an individual bullet will react, they will work the similarly, except that the XPB will expand and disrupt soft tissue causing a rapidly fatal wound. Barnes is very good about answering questions regarding their products, you may want to email them for recommendations.

In the .30-30 the 150 grain Barnes .308" (.30-30) bullet is specifically designed for tubular magazines. Same with the .458" 250 and 300 grain bullets for the .45-70.

Otherwise I have had good results with Barnes Tipped TSX (TTSX) bullets.

Buffalo Bore also offers a few lead free cartridges.

freshdesigns@hotmail.com
11-04-2013, 2:40 PM
Does the NEW Brown-signed lead ammo ban signed affect this discussion or is it same situation just affecting all of CA now?

prometa
11-04-2013, 4:11 PM
Does the NEW Brown-signed lead ammo ban signed affect this discussion or is it same situation just affecting all of CA now?

711, as signed, makes it a crime to take game using bullets containing lead in them, at the point the regulations take force. I believe the bill just takes the existing language and makes it take effect throughout the state, though I haven't read the bill text in a few weeks.

taking game is defined legally as killing another animal. In my opinion, it leaves no room in the definition for self-defense purposes. So, as written, shooting a bear that represented a lethal threat to your life would be a crime if you use a bullet containing lead.

Rodell
11-04-2013, 4:27 PM
You must use lead free ammo if defending yourself against a condor.

But condors can spit lead at you.

Rodell
11-04-2013, 4:30 PM
Are Barnes solid copper bullets as effective as hard cast for defensive purposes (not hunting), like penetrating skull or breaking bones? This would be in 10mm and 44 mag pistol caliber and 30-30 and 45-70 in long gun.

Barnes bullets do a heck of a job on game. I have no doubt they would get the job done in a defensive situation against a two-legged attacker.

I've got a recovered bullet right here on my desk and it looks just like the picture, with four perfectly formed petals and 100% weight retention.

OneLoneShooter
11-04-2013, 4:57 PM
Condors are ugly. For that reason alone they should be wiped out I say.

They also clearly don't taste very good. I have never tried one myself, and I don't know anyone who has every tasted one, but I know humanity well enough to know that if those ugly turkey-wannabes tasted good, then they wouldn't be endangered. They'd be produced by the hundreds of millions in factory-farms across the globe.

One of my dreams is to open up a large animal preserve. I'll raise and release endangered species into it, and have people pay me to shoot 'em. I'd then butcher the animal, and let them keep the meat, and maybe have a "Condor Sandwich Deli" on the side as well.

But back on topic: If you're hunting in CA, going through all the paperwork that that activity entails, just don't use lead ammo. Problem solved.

If you're not hunting in CA, and a bear, mountain lion, or even super-intelligent deer wearing a hat that shoots out laser-beams, charges at you, (or someone else, or your children, or someone else's children) then shoot it.

If it's self-defense, then it's self defense. 'Nuff said.

Some hippy in SF will shed a few marijuana-laced tears because you killed an innocent creature of the woods, but you came home safe and sound, and weren't mauled to death by a wild animal, and that's really what matters at the end of the day.

Worse-case: It is just an animal, not another human being. You're most likely not going to have to deal with the D.A. pressing charges against you or the whole thing turning into a media-circus.

You'll probably just pay a fine, and I'm sure the folks in charge would be willing to work out a payment plan that fits your budget.

Note: I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

teetsjones
11-04-2013, 5:27 PM
May sure you drag the dead bear inside your tent, so it's a clear case of self defense. :rolleyes:

Just to be safe, put a knife in his paw and claim he was making furtive motions at you.

freshdesigns@hotmail.com
11-04-2013, 5:34 PM
I have a 41 mag and the heaviest bullet weight in solid copper is 180 gr. vs 250 and heavier in cast bullet designs. Is the 180 a disadvantage compred to heavier cast bullets at 250?

Custom ii
11-04-2013, 5:55 PM
What if it's "Bear season", you're camping but not hunting, and you need to defend yourself (ok, ok, we all know it's unlikely). Can't a case be made against you?

Only if you had a hunting license and a bear tag.:kest:

freshdesigns@hotmail.com
11-04-2013, 6:18 PM
I guess if 180gr solid copper is as effective (or ineffective!) as a 250gr cast bullet, them I'd probably just load copper! Anyone with first hand experience on the two?

eeeeman
11-04-2013, 6:31 PM
http://govtslaves.info/ammunition/

kenk4
01-17-2014, 1:55 PM
I guess if 180gr solid copper is as effective (or ineffective!) as a 250gr cast bullet, them I'd probably just load copper! Anyone with first hand experience on the two?

I am wondering the same thing. Are the lead free pistol rounds effective in a defensive situation as apposed to a hunting situation.

barrage
01-17-2014, 2:15 PM
The worst thing Johnny Cash ever did in his life was not kill every last one of those ****ing condors.

ja308
01-17-2014, 2:25 PM
I guess if 180gr solid copper is as effective (or ineffective!) as a 250gr cast bullet, them I'd probably just load copper! Anyone with first hand experience on the two?


Elmer Keith was a lifelong gun culture guy ! He along with Remington developed the 44 mag cartridge .
If I recall correctly, Elmer was a fan of heavy bullets for nearly everything. Personally I would avoid a hollow point against the animal you described . My thought is deep penetration. .

The above is only a guess I have no proof of the above thoughts .

zimmj
01-17-2014, 5:30 PM
Is shotgun ammo included in this ban?

Excelsior
01-17-2014, 5:40 PM
We were out quail hunting here in CA last Sunday. I was in the midst of dressing out a Bald Eagle (accidentally shot, but we still eat what we shoot) when the DFW showed up.

The ranger went apoplectic! I explained that I felt horrible about hitting the Bald Eagle, that it swooped down to grab what I had my gun pointed on, but once I did shoot it, I was required by the hunter's ethos to consume the kill. I added that "I sure as hell hope it's not leathery like that damned Condor I accidentally nailed last summer while target shooting."

At that point the ranger started to foam at the mouth and began clutching at his chest. When he dropped we felt it was an opportune time to break camp -- we made sure he was still breathing and we called 911 before actually departing.

ja308
01-17-2014, 5:49 PM
Barnes bullets do a heck of a job on game. I have no doubt they would get the job done in a defensive situation against a two-legged attacker.

I've got a recovered bullet right here on my desk and it looks just like the picture, with four perfectly formed petals and 100% weight retention.



Yup the Barnes people do lots of research on what bullet works for what application .
Although I shoot lots of hard cast bullets. To my knowledge they are most popular because of availability and low cost.

The Barnes bullets I bought last were over a buck a piece . Not much considering a defensive or hunting situation against animals large enough to kill you

Ishooter
01-18-2014, 1:24 AM
Some anti-guns will try to keep the number of condor down to the minimum, so that they can still control the ammo. As long as the condor population isn't healthy, which means they're still endangered, then the anti-guns are still happy.

Excelsior
01-18-2014, 9:06 AM
Condors are ugly. For that reason alone they should be wiped out I say.

They also clearly don't taste very good. I have never tried one myself, and I don't know anyone who has every tasted one, but I know humanity well enough to know that if those ugly turkey-wannabes tasted good, then they wouldn't be endangered. They'd be produced by the hundreds of millions in factory-farms across the globe.

One of my dreams is to open up a large animal preserve. I'll raise and release endangered species into it, and have people pay me to shoot 'em. I'd then butcher the animal, and let them keep the meat, and maybe have a "Condor Sandwich Deli" on the side as well.

But back on topic: If you're hunting in CA, going through all the paperwork that that activity entails, just don't use lead ammo. Problem solved.

If you're not hunting in CA, and a bear, mountain lion, or even super-intelligent deer wearing a hat that shoots out laser-beams, charges at you, (or someone else, or your children, or someone else's children) then shoot it.

If it's self-defense, then it's self defense. 'Nuff said.

Some hippy in SF will shed a few marijuana-laced tears because you killed an innocent creature of the woods, but you came home safe and sound, and weren't mauled to death by a wild animal, and that's really what matters at the end of the day.

Worse-case: It is just an animal, not another human being. You're most likely not going to have to deal with the D.A. pressing charges against you or the whole thing turning into a media-circus.

You'll probably just pay a fine, and I'm sure the folks in charge would be willing to work out a payment plan that fits your budget.

Note: I am not a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.

You're not ignorant, are you?

Wiz-of-Awd
01-18-2014, 9:45 AM
Here you go, http://www.corbon.com/dpx-handgun/general/dpx-handgun

That is all.

A.W.D.

Jimi Jah
01-18-2014, 10:17 AM
I like condors. I love to shoot them with my Cannon, DSLR that is.

Too bad BLM outlawed my cheapo Russian steel ammo.