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YubaRiver
03-20-2010, 5:47 PM
Vancouver WA

Open carry IS brandishing. Apparently.


http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/mar/19/police-ticket-man-who-wore-gun-in-store/

ChuckBooty
03-20-2010, 5:50 PM
Not sure what the laws are up there but if he was carrying a loaded firearm in an illegal manner then he got what he deserved.

G17GUY
03-20-2010, 5:52 PM
Under the law, Raquer said, a person can be ticketed if his display of a gun alarms people
To bad they don't do this for ugly people.

He added, “Most responsible people don’t display their firearm in public.”

Law enforcement is irresponsible?

Had the man worn a coat, no one would have noticed the gun, Raquer said.

In that event, however, the gun would have been considered concealed, which is illegal unless the person had a concealed weapons permit, Botvinnik said.


Douch!

That law says: “It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.”

alarm for the safety? Some people are scared when they see a dog take a ****...

Gray Peterson
03-20-2010, 5:55 PM
The City of Vancouver, WA stands alone as the only city where we have had these sort of problems. Even Seattle is on the ball with open carry. What is the problem? I am not sure. The first time this happened was a year ago, and there's still an appeal going on.

G17GUY
03-20-2010, 6:04 PM
There has got to be a standard for an incident that “warrants alarm for the safety of other persons”. A fire warrants alarm for the safety of other persons…. An out of control vehicle warrants alarm for the safety of other persons… A tornado warrants alarm for the safety of other persons….

A holstered firearm, a steak knife being used to eat dinner, and a clown with a “mad clown” face paint job do not warrant alarm for the safety of other persons.

I Like Guns
03-20-2010, 6:13 PM
WTF, this is nonsense. I hope this guy files a lawsuit. I don't understand how a guy going about his business and OC'ing can be guilty of this charge. Sounds like the guy was following the law.

GaryV
03-20-2010, 6:43 PM
There has got to be a standard for an incident that “warrants alarm for the safety of other persons”.

You hit the nail on the head. The law says warrants alarm, not causes alarm. The police are abusing the law. Just like self-defense laws, your fear has to be "warranted", not merely present. Hopefully he sues and gets these dumb :censored:es fired.

magsnubs
03-20-2010, 6:46 PM
That shows what we're up against. People have been brainwashed into "fearing" guns. Look how good it worked on Dubyah. I'm no fan of his, but the whole country freaked out and voted in this present clown, when after all (especially after this last year!), he was no worse than most of them. That is the power of the media hypnoscope in action, right there!

magsnubs
03-20-2010, 6:47 PM
BTW, "hypnoscope" is my own word.

Roadrunner
03-20-2010, 6:49 PM
It looks like they just gave him a traffic ticket. If what I'm reading there is any indication of the truth, he should be able walk away intact and make the cop look like a moron at the same time.

GaryV
03-20-2010, 6:56 PM
If you want to point out to their PD that they are in fact violating the law by detaining and ticketing people simply because someone gets scared, even though the law specifically says that the person's actions have to warrant fear, just like in self-defense laws, here are all the contact emails for the PD:

http://www.cityofvancouver.us/police.asp?policeID=31531&policeSubID=31538

bodger
03-20-2010, 10:00 PM
I wonder if he'll lose his CCW over this.

N6ATF
03-21-2010, 12:27 AM
Looks like I won't be visiting my friend in Vancouver anytime soon... criminal cops on the loose.

gunsmith
03-21-2010, 1:57 AM
There used to be an activist named Lonnie Wilson, great guy in WA State, I wish I knew how to get in touch with him about this.
afaik he wasn't breaking any laws

demnogis
03-21-2010, 2:22 AM
Unlike CA, WA has constitution-friendly carry. Yes, indeed, they respect the right to Open Carry without a golden permission slip.

I certainly hope he contests it in court. Cops can cite for whatever they want -- doesn't exactly mean it will stand up in court!

Liberty1
03-21-2010, 9:03 AM
Hope SAF or this individual ties this department up in Federal Court. Now that gets expensive!

Maestro Pistolero
03-21-2010, 11:16 AM
in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.That seems way to vague to be enforced fairly. Whether one is guilty or not becomes merely a matter of someone's opinion and level of hoplophobia. How can we be held legally responsible for someone else's state of mind? This law is vulnerable for it's arbitrary and capricious nature, IMO.

joemama
03-21-2010, 6:05 PM
so technically the whole police force up there should be ticketed too. I'm sure there are plenty of people they encounter on a daily basis that are simply afraid of guns whether on their belts or someone else's.

Pig Rifle
03-21-2010, 8:10 PM
I hope this guy fights this "ticket". If this type of thing is allowed, it will only serve to encourage the antis to become even bigger drama queens than they already are.

weezil_boi
03-21-2010, 9:05 PM
This doesnt completely surprise me. Vancouver, WA is just across the river from Portland, OR... both cities sit at ends of a state border crossing bridge on I5. Lotta folks live in vancouver and work in portland.

Vancouver is practically oregon-lite. And Portland-lite at that. Its like living across the bridge from San francisco... beware ;)

I grew up in WA and visit often, vancouver is still one of the small cities that is as annoying as seattle. Compliments of Portland.

If you want to now how you'd be treated there, well... expect some big city gun paranioa.

Gray Peterson
03-21-2010, 9:12 PM
There used to be an activist named Lonnie Wilson, great guy in WA State, I wish I knew how to get in touch with him about this.
afaik he wasn't breaking any laws

You already are in touch with him. :D That's my former name before I decided to take on my husband's last name and change my first name to what I was commonly called outside of family and gun rights movements.

Untamed1972
03-22-2010, 10:24 AM
A holstered firearm, a steak knife being used to eat dinner, and a clown with a “mad clown” face paint job do not warrant alarm for the safety of other persons.


:rofl2:

gunsmith
03-22-2010, 10:45 PM
You already are in touch with him. :D That's my former name before I decided to take on my husband's last name and change my first name to what I was commonly called outside of family and gun rights movements.

So was this fella breaking the law?

Gray Peterson
03-22-2010, 11:36 PM
So was this fella breaking the law?

No. The Portland/Vancouver OCDO'ers were planning on doing a gather in the middle of Esther Short park, but it looks like it's being pulled back by request of the guy's lawyer. We are trying to get the issue fixed.

YubaRiver
03-30-2010, 5:11 PM
Pressing charges. Up to a year possible.


http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/mar/30/prosecutors-planning-charge-man-open-carry-handgun/

todd2968
03-30-2010, 6:53 PM
Perfectly within his rights to open carry, but was ticketed and they are pressing charges. Did I miss something?
I do think this guy was out looking for confrontation and was walking around looking for someone to say something, but that doesn't change the fact that he has a legal right to open carry.

The trial against Kirby is scheduled to begin May 12 at 8:30 a.m.


Road trip I'd like to see this one for myself!!!!

Maestro Pistolero
03-31-2010, 1:39 AM
Popcorn ready. It's not everyday a big city DA takes on a case that he ought to know he is going to lose. This crap might have flown in the 80s or 90s, but people know their rights now. Not only that, incorporation's around the corner. Not even intermediate scrutiny will save this DA's case.

FastFinger
03-31-2010, 5:41 AM
A holstered firearm, a steak knife being used to eat dinner, and a clown with a “mad clown” face paint job do not warrant alarm for the safety of other persons.


Depends on the clown...

http://captainleadbottom.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/barack-obama-joker.jpg

Having a law based on the arbitrary emotional responses of random individuals does seem like a very strange way to operate. But if that's acceptable it's only fair that I should be allowed to complain and instigate arrests based on the fact that in some parts of town I'm alarmed that fellow citizens are not armed to protect themselves and me.

tenpercentfirearms
03-31-2010, 7:38 AM
I bet Washington doesn't have a Wasguns Foundation. That is too bad.

gunsmith
03-31-2010, 10:03 PM
They have calguns member Gray Paterson, who has been known to shake things up a few times

Aleksandr Mravinsky
03-31-2010, 10:17 PM
Completely bogus charges. I hope the city presses on with its idiotic mission. It could prove to be a win. No one in their right mind would be afraid of a holstered handgun, though I'm not too sure about Washington's OC laws.

limitdown
04-02-2010, 9:07 PM
Totally BS charges!

How can a gun be "improperly" carried in an OC?
It's either concealed, in which case it's well, concealed!
If it's holstered, then it's OC

Obviously if he unholsters it and/or waves it around inappropriately, then it's improperly carried. If that was really the case, the cop probably would have just shot him instead of ticketing him....

HK-DEMON-
04-02-2010, 9:22 PM
WTF, this is nonsense. I hope this guy files a lawsuit. I don't understand how a guy going about his business and OC'ing can be guilty of this charge. Sounds like the guy was following the law.

i can smell the lawsuit from miles away.

Milsurp Collector
04-04-2010, 10:44 PM
Oregon Public Broadcasting's radio show "Think Out Loud" had a show about this Vancouver incident and open carry in general on Friday April 2. Guests were


Bob Albrecht: Reporter for the Columbian newspaper
Jim Beal: Open Carry advocate
Dave Workman: Spokesman for the Second Amendment Foundation, and editor and reporter for Gunweek
Ginny Burdick: Democratic State Senator
Ralph Fascitelli: President of the Board of Washington Ceasefire


You can listen to it or download it at http://www.opb.org/thinkoutloud/shows/unpacking-heat/