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Reloaderx2
03-19-2010, 11:04 AM
Just got this in an email:

"Bill Hunt has received the endorsement and support of Dr. Ignatius Piazza, Founder and Director of Front Sight Firearms Training Institute. Dr. Piazza recently addressed the California Rifle and Pistol Association in Orange County at their 135th Annual Fundraising Gala on February 27, 2010. Dr. Piazza joins a host of national national leaders on the 2nd Amendment issue that have endorsed Bill Hunt for Orange County Sheriff including Sheriff Richard Mack, (Ret), Graham County Az., Sheriff Joe Arpaio, Maricopa County Az., Suzanna Hupp, former Republican member of the Texas House of Representatives and Dr. John Lott, Jr., Author of "More Guns, less Crime." More can be learned about Dr. Piazza and Front Sight Firearms Training Institute http://www.frontsight.com/. "

I guess my question is has Craig Hunter received any endorsements from any national 2A types?

bwiese
03-19-2010, 11:14 AM
I've met Bill Hunt and he's a nice guy.

But why wave Piazza's endorsement around after his disastrous speech at that dinner? He blindsided and insulted his hosts - CRPA board/staff, members as well as attending NRA members with a variety "nonfactual assertions" (I'm being charitable using that term).

I doubt Mr Piazza will be engaged by any primary-tier gun orgs again.

nn3453
03-19-2010, 11:23 AM
But why wave Piazza's endorsement around after his disastrous speech at that dinner? He blindsided and insulted his hosts - CRPA board/staff, members as well as attending NRA members with a variety "nonfactual assertions" (I'm being charitable using that term).

I doubt Mr Piazza will be engaged by any primary-tier gun orgs again.

Piazza runs an institution that hires good people who provide good training. Beyond that, his credibility as someone who's statements mean anything positive is questionable in context of his recent speech as well as the alleged business "issues" that he is under scrutiny for. A PR person wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole. His endorsement probably does more harm than good.

ZombieTactics
03-19-2010, 11:24 AM
...He blindsided and insulted his hosts - CRPA board/staff, members as well as attending NRA members with a variety "nonfactual assertions" (I'm being charitable using that term). ...
Hi Bill: Just trying to get it straight here. I've tried several times to get some detail about what Piazza said, and really all I get are things which are arguably true or at least matters of opinion. I have no interest in defending Piazza necessarily, but I'd like to get the facts straight in the pursuit of simple intellectual honesty. Are you willing or capable of detailing the worst things at least, the really bad stuff ... or can you point me to a tape, video or transcript?

The Director
03-19-2010, 11:28 AM
I would think that anyone who refers to himself as the "Millionaire Patriot" would already have reduced credibility.....

bwiese
03-19-2010, 11:43 AM
Hi Bill: Just trying to get it straight here. I've tried several times to get some detail about what Piazza said, and really all I get are things which are arguably true or at least matters of opinion. I have no interest in defending Piazza necessarily, but I'd like to get the facts straight in the pursuit of simple intellectual honesty. Are you willing or capable of detailing the worst things at least, the really bad stuff ... or can you point me to a tape, video or transcript?

He lied about membership levels in various active gun groups. And he did this with Very Friendly Politicians Who Have Helped Us in attendance.

He insulted NRA and CRPA members for "not fixing Sacramento"; last time I checked we're all pedal-to-the-metal to improve gunrights.

I know the CRPA leadership is; I know the NRA leadership (esp our CA boys!) are, and I know a lot of Calgunners are too. And, hell, we try to do our thing in CGF as well.

Then he said, "I don't even know why I'm here..." and went on a tirade about how he was Mr. Gunnie and nobody else was doing anything worthwhile. Everbody was dumbfounded. An autistic mute locked in a blackbox would have better social IQ. People were squirming in their chairs, including the hosts who were slapped in the face.

He then used that as a base for effectively saying "attend my camp or you're not a gunrights person". He did dole out some training as prizes.

I was a bit shocked - because my worries that evening were in a different area: that Piazza would attract a bunch of plaintiff-protesters interrupting the fundraiser dinner (with some important political friends there) and wondering about where their real estate money is. Remember when there was supposed to be a whole community in the desert? Some people are wondering where their house is.

Somehow someone Senior in Fairfax, VA got wind of what was going on and paged one of the NRA boys asking "WTF????"

And in between all the attacks/insults on members that evening, the whole tenor of "Front Sight solves all your problems" was that of Ron Popeil selling salad spinners... "Not $99, not $89, not $79 but $69 buys you a..."

I certainly can't speak for the organization, but somehow I'd be surprised to see Piazza ads or references in the future in NRA publications. And the CRPA is NRA's state affiliate so you can understand their sentiments too...

wildhawker
03-19-2010, 11:51 AM
Just got this in an email:

"Bill Hunt has received the endorsement and support of Dr. Ignatius Piazza, Founder and Director of Front Sight Firearms Training Institute. Dr. Piazza recently addressed the California Rifle and Pistol Association in Orange County at their 135th Annual Fundraising Gala on February 27, 2010. Dr. Piazza joins a host of national national leaders on the 2nd Amendment issue that have endorsed Bill Hunt for Orange County Sheriff including Sheriff Richard Mack, (Ret), Graham County Az., Sheriff Joe Arpaio, Maricopa County Az., Suzanna Hupp, former Republican member of the Texas House of Representatives and Dr. John Lott, Jr., Author of "More Guns, less Crime." More can be learned about Dr. Piazza and Front Sight Firearms Training Institute http://www.frontsight.com/. "

I guess my question is has Craig Hunter received any endorsements from any national 2A types?

My favorite response in this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=281408) on same topic:

Douchebag endorses marginal candidate. I'll alert the press. :rolleyes:

halifax
03-19-2010, 12:00 PM
He lied about membership levels in various active gun groups. And he did this with Very Friendly Politicians Who Have Helped Us in attendance.

He insulted NRA and CRPA members for "not fixing Sacramento"; last time I checked we're all pedal-to-the-metal to improve gunrights.

I know the CRPA leadership is; I know the NRA leadership (esp our CA boys!) are, and I know a lot of Calgunners are too. And, hell, we try to do our thing in CGF as well.

Then he said, "I don't even know why I'm here..." and went on a tirade about how he was Mr. Gunnie and nobody else was doing anything worthwhile. Everbody was dumbfounded. An autistic mute locked in a blackbox would have better social IQ. People were squirming in their chairs, including the hosts who were slapped in the face.

He then used that as a base for effectively saying "attend my camp or you're not a gunrights person". He did dole out some training as prizes.

I was a bit shocked - because my worries that evening were in a different area: that Piazza would attract a bunch of plaintiff-protesters interrupting the fundraiser dinner (with some important political friends there) and wondering about where their real estate money is. Remember when there was supposed to be a whole community in the desert? Some people are wondering where their house is.

Somehow someone Senior in Fairfax, VA got wind of what was going on and paged one of the NRA boys asking "WTF????"

And in between all the attacks/insults on members that evening, the whole tenor of "Front Sight solves all your problems" was that of Ron Popeil selling salad spinners... "Not $99, not $89, not $79 but $69 buys you a..."

I certainly can't speak for the organization, but somehow I'd be surprised to see Piazza ads or references in the future in NRA publications. And the CRPA is NRA's state affiliate so you can understand their sentiments too...

Had he been drinking?

bwiese
03-19-2010, 12:08 PM
Had he been drinking?

I don't think so, other than his own hormones ;)

ZombieTactics
03-19-2010, 12:37 PM
Well, I guess I have a different idea about what "detail" means.

No matter. I can take it on 'faith' that Piazza is a character, and probably needs a good slap now-n-then. It pains me that people can't just put on their big-girl pants.

Reloaderx2
03-19-2010, 12:41 PM
Aside from personal opinion on the Piazza guy, I still see the likes of Lott and Hupp endorsing Hunt. My question remains the same. What national 2A types have endorsed Hunter. Anyone?

wildhawker
03-19-2010, 1:24 PM
Well, I guess I have a different idea about what "detail" means.

No matter. I can take it on 'faith' that Piazza is a character, and probably needs a good slap now-n-then. It pains me that people can't just put on their big-girl pants.

Maybe you should be more involved in gun rights and show up to these events so you can see for yourself.

RomanDad
03-19-2010, 1:35 PM
Does anybody know how to retract an Ebay Bid?






I wanted to get my kid a "Mickey Mouse Outfit" and now I'm six minutes away from buying Hunt's Campaign staff.

IGOTDIRT4U
03-19-2010, 1:38 PM
Just when I was wondering what to add to my sig, ...


Thanks, RD!

SteveH
03-19-2010, 1:39 PM
Aside from personal opinion on the Piazza guy, I still see the likes of Lott and Hupp endorsing Hunt. My question remains the same. What national 2A types have endorsed Hunter. Anyone?

Block? Not really national. Big fish in a small pond though. Will carry water with the current CCW permit holders.

Reloaderx2
03-19-2010, 1:51 PM
Block? Not really national. Big fish in a small pond though. Will carry water with the current CCW permit holders.

Thanks. I didn't think anyone was going to answer that question. Hunter is going to need a lot more support than a handful of current CCW holders.

IGOTDIRT4U
03-19-2010, 1:57 PM
Local elections are won on local issues. Dragging in national figures is not the best way to win campaigns on the local level.

So, as to big hitters for Hunter?

OC GOP?!

The wives, work colleagues, friends and contacts of those CCW (or potential) holders? People who matter, and have further contacts such as Judges, OC buisness Board members, old money campaign dollars, and other city leaders?

ZombieTactics
03-19-2010, 2:12 PM
Maybe you should be more involved in gun rights and show up to these events so you can see for yourself.
See, now thats where the "big girl pants" thing comes into play. We don't need to be mean ...

Reloaderx2
03-19-2010, 2:45 PM
Ok. Fair enough. Multiply a "handful" by 10.

wildhawker
03-19-2010, 2:48 PM
See, now thats where the "big girl pants" thing comes into play. We don't need to be mean ...

I agree, except that you might want to try those "big girl pants" on for size. My comment was a valid suggestion. That you took it as an attack instead of a relevant approach to mitigate your curiosity and fulfill an opportunity to educate yourself on these issues indicates that you might, indeed, want to consider it.

dantodd
03-19-2010, 3:02 PM
Well, I guess I have a different idea about what "detail" means.

No matter. I can take it on 'faith' that Piazza is a character, and probably needs a good slap now-n-then. It pains me that people can't just put on their big-girl pants.

What an idiot. I do not make ad hominem attacks lightly but get real.

First you ask a probing but fair question. Bill writes a very detailed response which you refuse to acknowledge as "detailed" enough. Would anything short of a transcript satisfy your need to know? For someone who claims to have no interest in Piazza specifically you sure have blinders on the size of barn doors.

Then you insult people by making insinuations about their manhood by suggesting the wear their "big girl" pants.

In response to that attack Brandon suggests that if you really want greater details that you should become involved and you respond back saying to ask you to get off your kiester was being mean.

You sir, are not worth the electrons to display this message.

IGOTDIRT4U
03-19-2010, 3:28 PM
Ok. Fair enough. Multiply a "handful" by 10.

Or 10,000. These are influential people. You really don't know who you are talking to when you are on the forums, now, do you?!?

-hanko
03-19-2010, 4:51 PM
No matter. I can take it on 'faith' that Piazza is a character, and probably needs a good slap now-n-then.
It's beyond that: Piazza has come across as a horse's arse since FS started...pyramid land scheme that went tango-uniform, toss in a little (very) scientology, and add a lot of bragging. He's indeed a legend in his own mind.

I'd agree with Bill W that a Piazza endorsement is the last thing a politician needs;).

-hanko

Friar_Tuck
03-19-2010, 6:01 PM
I can't speak for his criticism of the CRPA, but the NRA is NOT taking care of business and that's putting it mildly. Admit it. The NRA is corrupt and has totally forgotten it's raison d'ętre If they ever had one.. (GCA of 1968; anyone?)

Cool Gun Wife
03-19-2010, 6:57 PM
And in between all the attacks/insults on members that evening, the whole tenor of "Front Sight solves all your problems" was that of Ron Popeil selling salad spinners... "Not $99, not $89, not $79 but $69 buys you a..."

I certainly can't speak for the organization, but somehow I'd be surprised to see Piazza ads or references in the future in NRA publications. And the CRPA is NRA's state affiliate so you can understand their sentiments too...


I was there, and was waiting for the 800 number to be flashed out for the first one hundred callers - Couldn't agree more with Bill. We as a group of RKBA activists were insulted, maligned, and treated to the sham wow of sham wow presentations. Even the ladies in the restroom were hissing about the slap in the face. Too many people fall for the garbage and then spend their time kvetching about the very organizations that are fully in the fight.

Bill Hunt is a great guy, has a strong message of leadership, and would make a much better sheriff in OC than the mess we have now. Let's get together and support this candidate and replace the She-riff.

ZombieTactics
03-19-2010, 7:13 PM
I agree, except that you might want to try those "big girl pants" on for size. My comment was a valid suggestion. That you took it as an attack instead of a relevant approach to mitigate your curiosity and fulfill an opportunity to educate yourself on these issues indicates that you might, indeed, want to consider it. Or it could have been that you were suggesting that I had no right to an opinion because I wasn't there. I don't understand how - in this case - I should have driven several hundreds of miles in order to have an opinion or ask a few probing questions. I willing to accept your "valid suggestion" explanation at face value. I don't think it's too much to ask the benefit of the doubt, either ... but apparently I'm not a member of the club or something.

Reloaderx2
03-19-2010, 7:28 PM
Or 10,000. These are influential people. You really don't know who you are talking to when you are on the forums, now, do you?!?

I like to feel self important every once in a while too but in answer to your question no. Why don't you just say 100,000. It's just as believable.

ZombieTactics
03-19-2010, 7:33 PM
What an idiot. I do not make ad hominem attacks lightly but get real. Wow, you're pretty free and direct with the ad homs for one so unaccustomed to using them. :-)

First you ask a probing but fair question. Bill writes a very detailed response which you refuse to acknowledge as "detailed" enough. Would anything short of a transcript satisfy your need to know? For someone who claims to have no interest in Piazza specifically you sure have blinders on the size of barn doors.
Actually, I really did expect quite a bit more detail. Maybe that's an unfair burden to place on someone's time. I've tried on a couple occasions to get someone to tell what actually happened and what Piazza actually said. What I've received so far fall very well within the category of "he said things that made me mad" and arguable differences of opinion. What I should not have done in place the word faith in quotes, because I can see in hindsight how that could be seen as sarcasm, where none was met. I don't think I ever claimed to have "no interest" in Piazza. I do have an interest in getting the facts straight and getting to the bottom of some things now and then.


Then you insult people by making insinuations about their manhood by suggesting the wear their "big girl" pants. I think it's more questioning people's maturity than manhood, frankly. ANd I'll stand by that sentiment. If I were to accept every slam against the NRA (or any organization) that their representaives said something stupid or did something wrong ... the list fills volumes. But I put on my "big girl pants" and realize that - on balance - they are on the same side I am and deal with like an adult.

Piazza may be a complete horses ***, but let's get some perspective here. Whatever he said/did, it hardly rises to the level of anything beyond him being an *** and insulting some people. I doubt his nonsense will ever reach the level of Wayne's "jack booted thugs" or Bill Ruger's anti armed citizen bias. Those kinds of things set us back, Piazza damns nobody's image but his own and that of his business.

In response to that attack Brandon suggests that if you really want greater details that you should become involved and you respond back saying to ask you to get off your kiester was being mean. I see, I must pass some private test of yours to have the right to an opinion or ask questions. In this case I would have had to drive hundreds of miles in order to simply have the right to ask "what did he actually say"? Let me have the handbook in advance next time, okay? How many meetings do I need to attend until I am allowed to be as wonderful as you?

You sir, are not worth the electrons to display this message. Kinda of an ad hominem of the type your so loathe to use, don't you think? Note that I have yet to call you a name or suggest that you are a waste of anything except perhaps some spare time. I don't find it difficult to stick to that kind of discourse ... give it a try.

dantodd
03-19-2010, 7:42 PM
Wow, you're pretty free and direct with the ad homs for one so unaccustomed to using them. :-)

Kinda of an ad hominem of the type your so loathe to use, don't you think?

I never said I was loath to use not unaccustomed to using them, merely that I do not do so lightly. Perhaps if you re-read my post as well as Bill's you will pick up more a second time around.

ZombieTactics
03-19-2010, 7:56 PM
dantodd: I'll tell you what I do know. Sometimes one just needs to de-escalate, which is what I strongly suggest in this case. I've seen enough of your posts to know that you are not an idiot, and I am not going to be offended such by a rash comment made in haste. Let's just say that were we speaking in person I think there would probably be far greater understanding and less vitriol. Perhaps I'll have the good fortune to buy you a beer someday.

Other than that, it appears that we are simply "talking past each other", and I'll leave it at that.

wildhawker
03-19-2010, 8:08 PM
Zombie, many of us traveled hundreds of miles.

You have a right to an opinion, but when you ask us to provide you with a transcript then my (reasonable) response to your (unreasonable) request is a suggestion to do what we do and *show up*. No better way to confirm or deny than to be present and get involved.

ZombieTactics
03-19-2010, 9:16 PM
Zombie, many of us traveled hundreds of miles.

You have a right to an opinion, but when you ask us to provide you with a transcript then my (reasonable) response to your (unreasonable) request is a suggestion to do what we do and *show up*. No better way to confirm or deny than to be present and get involved.

I understand that many traveled long distances. I don't think that should be a requirement in order to be deemed worthy to ask questions ... that's an unreasonable requirement by any rational measure. All I've ever asked is to know what was actually said. To me, "he lied" isn't an answer, not really even a decent summary ... it's hardly even a bumper sticker. It certainly doesn't tell me what was said, but rather one person's opinion about what was said. I don't find that distinction anything but obvious. That simple observation gets me branded by some as an idiot or worse. I would hope that people who argue for a living might do better than that kind of summary, but fully understand that it's possibly obnoxious to be interrogated about a matter of personal experience.

I'm dropping any such request, because it's clear that somehow that's a hot button for people. I don't pretend to understand that kind of thinking, but - acknowledging such - it's just foolishly futile for me to press the point. Consider my last comments to dantodd "cc'd to your account" by reference.

MP301
03-19-2010, 10:28 PM
So the guy who used to live in CA and first started firearms training in CA, but fled the state because NV has better gun laws is criticizing those who choose to stand their ground and fight the fight he ran away from? :rolleyes: He has done some decent PR on a national scale, but he ran from the problem CG/CRPA is fighting and winning. I've been to FS, and I liked the training, but what a low life.

I was trying to avoid getting involved any more in this subject, but please get your facts straight if your gonna jump on the Piazza hate wagon. Piazza lives in CA and tried to open FS in CA, but guess what? CA didnt like the idea of his school or what it represented (big surprise) so he went to a more friendly state. He couldnt get it done here and I would have to agree with that move...besides, even if he would have gotten it done, you can be damn sure there wouldnt be the select fire courses like the ones offered now.

As far as running from the fight...Gee, i guess there are no folks from CA or any other non free states/counrties that are members? Hint, every time I go to a class I always meet folks from CA, NY, NJ, etc...even members from England and Australia....Imagine that?

See, now thats where the "big girl pants" thing comes into play. We don't need to be mean ...

My friend, im with ya here, but take a minute and read my previous posts on Piazza and Front Sight. You may as well be talking religion or beating your head against the wall. I know Piazza has/had issues, but I have never seen so much personal ax grinding...even by proxy, then I have seen on this topic. And the grinding is done 99% by those that have not attended a class.


Ok, so here is the score for those on the hate Piazza bandwagon.

Cranked up a land deal that didnt work out.... Some of those involved sued in civil court and won 10 or so times what they invested? We all know that whether or not you lose in court never depends on who has the best lawyer and that if you lose, you must have been wrong...and doesnt matter that the majority of those involved in the land deal didnt choose to sue and were offered their money back but declined.

Then someone, apparently with an ax to grind, accussed Piazza of being a Scientologist. Is he? I dunno....he says he is a catholic, but maybe he is mistaken? Well, without any evidence, are we to assume that he is a Scientologist just because someone accusses him of it? Or am I missing the video of him attending the meetings? And, even if he was a Scientologist...which I strongly doubt, how does that affect the price of tea in China? Well, it doesnt...because there is not a hint of Scientology in anything Front Sight related or his blogs, etc. Are not Scientologist by nature trying to recruit more into their evil empire? Did he forget that part? Even If he is a closet Scientologist, I have not a problem with it as long as it doesnt affect anyone else.

Ok, now lets add the eye witness account of his obnoxious behavior at the dinner invite. If it was exactly as stated..and I have no reason to believe otherwise.....We should not forget the fact that there are many here on CGN that agree with what he said,(myself not necessarily included).
I conclude this from observing the many NRA etc., debates that get very heated.

So then, the only thing I see as a problem at this event is his poor judgment in voicing this at an event he was invited to by these same folks he had issues with, yes? Poor taste? Yes. Evil, lying, cheating? Not by a long shot.

At this point, lets look at irrefutable facts.

Does Piazza have a big ego? Im sure he does. I dont know of many that accomplished what he has and not had a big ego.

Has Piazza F'ed up? Sure, but doesnt it come with the territory? If you push the envelope, are you not gonna step on it once in a while? But hey, I guess all those that hate Piazza never screwed up, so its ok.

Is he evil? Not hardly.

Does he provide a good product? Please, only those that have attended a FS class should open their pie holes for this question. Good is an understatement. There might arguably be better classes, but I have yet to even hear of a similar program that does so much...and so well...especially one that can effectively teach beginners to experts. And guess what, the memberships are worth far more then they cost because you can keep going again and again. To top it off, all of the instructors teach the same program the same way...each and every time. This means your not getting conflicting info like so many other instructors like to put their own twist on things.

Does FS try to pressure you into a sale? Sure, if you wanna call a short video and answer session during lunch on day 2, that you dont even have to attend, high pressure sales. But gee, those that have not attended will have you believe that they will lock the doors and make you buy a membership at gun point while they draw blood and make you into a Scientology minion!

The reality is, from my first hand experience, and many other I have spoken with that have attended.....well, I get annoyed while im in the class room at lunch trying to have a conversation with an instructer and people keep interupting us trying to buy a membership....on their own...without prompting even.

Here is the deal with me. I dont give a rats *** how anyone feels about Piazza. Love him or hate him, I dont care. But at least have the decency and common sense to seperate your feelings about Piazza from his product. He wouldnt be the first person with a big ego to get accussed of some funky stuff...that even happens to big egos here on CGN ....Doesnt make it true...or does it? No amount of hate for Piazza will take away from what FS offers and the benefits you will get out of it. Dont throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It really pisses me off whenever someone talks about the training...some small minded person will come along and start the Piazza hate routine. This potentially screws someone out of first rate inexpensive training that they should get. Why do that? It serves no positive purpose whatsoever.

And although few of us are vocal, dont think for a second that your credibility doesnt take a big hit when you do this....Seriously.

Carry on

Friar_Tuck
03-19-2010, 11:28 PM
Please cite concrete examples of current NRA corruption and how the NRA has "forgotten" its mission. You have made two bold claims and I think should have the evidence to support them. Let us deal with facts, not opinions. I eagerly await your response.

here's some "illumination, as requested:
http://www.armedfemalesofamerica.com/takingaim/betrayal_trust.htm

Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, was at one time highly rated by the NRA for her advocacy of the Second Amendment. It's impossible to believe that the NRA did NOT KNOW she was actually totally ANTI gun. Foe some reason, NRA ignored that FACT to help get her elected- compromise.

Ron Paul was excluded from the NRA's online list of GOP candidates inspite of the fact he's the staunchest 2nd amendment defender on the hill- with a 30 year track record to prove it-compromise (for no apparent reason other than CORRUPTION to support entrenched RINO's

NRA Supported and were arguably the CREATORS of the 1968 GCA-HUGE compromise

NRA Director Joaquin Jackson has publically stated
that magazine capacities should be limited to five rounds
and that "assault weapons [sic] should be limited to military
or police." CORRUPTION AND BETRAYAL

H.R. 2640 was passed out of the House on a voice vote, and was forced through the Senate Committee process on a series of un-recorded voice votes. The bill is currently waiting for anti-gun liberals like Hillary Clinton and Harry Reid to call for a vote. This bill will put veterans on a no-buy list. NRA scalliwags even bragged about supporting this latest onerous legislation in The American Rifleman!!
The only reason this gun control bill has sailed through Congress is because the NRA is supporting it – and anti-gun activists are using the NRA’s support to force this bill into law. CORRUPTION COMPROMISE AND BETRAYAL

Shall I go on?

HCz
03-20-2010, 12:17 AM
Ok, so here is the score for those on the hate Piazza bandwagon.

Cranked up a land deal that didnt work out.... Some of those involved sued in civil court and won 10 or so times what they invested? We all know that whether or not you lose in court never depends on who has the best lawyer and that if you lose, you must have been wrong...and doesnt matter that the majority of those involved in the land deal didnt choose to sue and were offered their money back but declined.
And those who sued one. If Piazza had some decent legal argument, he would have one, but he didn't. What does that say? It says that he had really bad idea and it bit him.


Has Piazza F'ed up? Sure, but doesnt it come with the territory? If you push the envelope, are you not gonna step on it once in a while? But hey, I guess all those that hate Piazza never screwed up, so its ok.

I didn't screw many people with a bad contract, try to use death of an officer for selling products. I guess to you, even one mistake is same as murder.

Does he provide a good product? Please, only those that have attended a FS class should open their pie holes for this question. Good is an understatement. There might arguably be better classes, but I have yet to even hear of a similar program that does so much...and so well...especially one that can effectively teach beginners to experts. And guess what, the memberships are worth far more then they cost because you can keep going again and again. To top it off, all of the instructors teach the same program the same way...each and every time. This means your not getting conflicting info like so many other instructors like to put their own twist on things.
So once again, you are equating his product with him and try to argue that pointing out Piazza's faults are same as criticizing the training. You claim that people should not equate the two entities, but you freely do so.

Maybe you need to take some other classes to see that FS's offering may not be all its hyped up to be. There are other classes that do well for far less. Magpul seems to come to CA from time to time so that could be a decent start.

Here is the deal with me. I dont give a rats *** how anyone feels about Piazza. Love him or hate him, I dont care. But at least have the decency and common sense to seperate your feelings about Piazza from his product. He wouldnt be the first person with a big ego to get accussed of some funky stuff...that even happens to big egos here on CGN ....Doesnt make it true...or does it? No amount of hate for Piazza will take away from what FS offers and the benefits you will get out of it. Dont throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It really pisses me off whenever someone talks about the training...some small minded person will come along and start the Piazza hate routine. This potentially screws someone out of first rate inexpensive training that they should get. Why do that? It serves no positive purpose whatsoever.

And although few of us are vocal, dont think for a second that your credibility doesnt take a big hit when you do this....Seriously.

If you don't give a rat's *** about how anyone feels about Piazza, you would not have posted your comment here. I don't think this thread was about FS's program and there weren't any post about the training part of FS, but you post as if this was about their training. Please have the decency and common sense to read the thread before reacting. Your Pavlovian resposnse about how their program is unfairly attacked just shows that you need to get your thoughts together before you click on the posting button.

It's worthy to note that Piazza had no problem buying ad space from NRA until NRA decided to distance themselves from him. Then all the lovely accusations of NRA doing nothing pops up. I guess having his ego stroking cut short just didn't sit well for some people.

bwiese
03-20-2010, 1:25 AM
OK it sounds like you're a GOA troll but what the hell...


Senator Kirsten Gillibrand, was at one time highly rated by the NRA for her advocacy of the Second Amendment. It's impossible to believe that the NRA did NOT KNOW she was actually totally ANTI gun. Foe some reason, NRA ignored that FACT to help get her elected- compromise.

1. Gillibrand changed colors - she was reliable in her former office. She's
trying to hold onto her next office, she's only into it her first term. I'd not expect future support.

2. If you vociferously jump on someone in her situation - there's no chance of bringing her back, or getting her to stay away during a critical vote. NY gunnies have a bit of a problem organizing they've been beat down so long.

Please learn "poltiics of the real world."


Ron Paul was excluded from the NRA's online list of GOP candidates inspite of the fact he's the staunchest 2nd amendment defender on the hill-


Ron Paul was de-rated because he was a POS that turned against the NRA and voted AGAINST the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act on some stupid irrelevant ideological purity grounds.

He said that he was voting against it because the 2nd Amendment should protect it. Yeah, great, wonderful - we all think that - but that was pre-Heller, and the 2nd Amend. was still up in the air. Getting PLCAA was vital especially if Heller didn't go thru/wasn't on the horizon.

PLCAA may welll be able to help Californians in certain transactions the DOJ doesn't like.

We're in a war and gun mfgrs were dying due to lawsuits, legal costs, etc. for behaviors totally out of their control and supervision. By Ron Paul's vote against PLCAA, he said he didn't care if America's gun industry got killed. And you lose the gun industry, you lose your gun rights a few years later.

Feel-good trumpeting of "I support gun rights" does ZERO good when you screw up on one of the biggest pro-gun legislative achievements EVER.

with a 30 year track record to prove it-compromise (for no apparent reason other than CORRUPTION to support entrenched RINO's


Whatever.
What does your screed have to do about gunrights? Sounds like you have other complaints about other items and are mad the NRA is not involved in those - but hey, it's just a gun rights organization. Sometimes that means electing a pro-gun legilsator that may not be to your liking in other areas.



NRA Supported and were arguably the CREATORS of the 1968 GCA-HUGE compromise

NRA really didn't start becoming a political powerhouse and learning its lobbying teeth until very late 1970s or better yet 1980s. Before that time it was a shooting association with some legislative liaison duties - it was not the powerhouse of today.

NRA did not really have the capability to drive legislation in 1968.


NRA Director Joaquin Jackson has publically stated
that magazine capacities should be limited to five rounds
and that "assault weapons [sic] should be limited to military
or police." CORRUPTION AND BETRAYAL


OK. I note that Joaquin Jackson is a TX Ranger which in some ways puts him separate from good ol' American shooters and I share your sympathies.

But:
1) He's not the NRA. He's ONE FRIGGIN' elected BOARD MEMBER.
PERIOD. I too am puzzled why he was elected. Maybe he has lotsa
friends who are duck hunters in the area.

2) If you're an NRA member for some time period, life member, etc.
YOU HAVE TO RIGHT TO VOTE FOR BOARD MEMBERS. YOU CAN
EASILY AND READILY VOTE AGAINST JOAQUIN JACKSON AND FIND
MORE SUITABLE CANDIDATES FOR THE BOARD. I see many many
fine board candidates and Mr Jackson

The NRA is a grassroots org and YOU CAN SHAPE IT. Join and
vote out such candidates - the ballots are in this month's American
Rifleman.

The good news is: J. Jackson is an exception on the Board and can't do much damage.


H.R. 2640 was passed out of the House on a voice vote, and was forced through the Senate Committee process on a series of un-recorded voice votes.

No, dude, get a clue. I'd say get a grip but you'd be reaching for a pair of Hogues you're so clueless.

It is NOT waiting for a vote, dummy - IT WAS PASSED IN 2007, as the "NICS Improvement Act". It's law - you are really, seriously "not clued in."

The bill is currently waiting for anti-gun liberals like Hillary Clinton and Harry Reid to call for a vote.

See above about not being clued in.

BTW, Harry Reid is a very PRO-GUN Senator. We have PLCAA in part because of him. He helped kill renewal of 1994 AW ban, etc.

Just because you don't like his other politics doesn't mean you can say he's not pro-gun. He's done a lot for us. If I were an NV resident, I would vote for him to reward him on that alone since I am generally a solely gun rights voter.

Here's a clue, dude:

.... Legislation was gonna occur in the wake of the VA Tech tragedy and the NRA created a useful bill that did not harm anyone. IT DID NOT BAN ANYONE NEW that was not already banned by law, it just stopped documented nutjobs that were already prohibited from having guns have their info conveyed into existing NICS system. Period.

IT ALSO STOPPED VETS FROM LOSING THEIR GUNRIGHTS FOREVER because it created procedures that allowed them for the first time to RECOVER their gunrights.

See, if you'd read the actual bill text instead of the GOA flyer you might actually learn something. I hope I am not stretching things by assuming reading abiity.


This bill will put veterans on a no-buy list.

Utter outright bald lie. You must be reading something from the GOA, or someone wound the key on your back to make your jaws move.

A mentally unstable veteran who has been adjudicated mentally ill was already prohibited from gun acquisition (and often possession). This just updated the NICS system with already-valid data.

Again, it also made a simple path for formal mandatory recovery of gun rights should the vet in fact be sane/cured/not adjudicated defective, etc.

THIS BILL ALSO DISPLACED OTHER ANTIGUN BILLS - by giving some bait to wavering members of Congress/Senate to vote on this bill instead of on a bad gun bill: "Hey I voted on X to stop crazies from having guns."

Surely you are not arguing that mental defectives should be allowed to walk into a gunstore and buy guns? Hell, I wouldn't let 'em buy lawn mowers or garden shears or lawn darts either. But if they are indeed clean or they were misclassified, I want them to be able to have their gunrights - so it's nice to have a process to do that that never existed before.

NRA scalliwags even bragged about supporting this latest onerous legislation in The American Rifleman!!

As they should. It was a triumph in the face of adversity (bad news in VA, other bad bills could come up, etc).

Here's some articles, the first from a vet's group talking about the uber-rightwing paranoiac nuttery on 2640:

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2007/10/13/ptsd-veterans-victims-of-neocon-nutcase-scare-hr2640/

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=3112


The only reason this gun control bill has sailed through Congress is because the NRA is supporting it – and anti-gun activists are using the NRA’s support to force this bill into law. CORRUPTION COMPROMISE AND BETRAYAL

Of course. That's why I pay my dues.

Antigun activist have no clout in Congress, NRA owns it. So they have to act like they're still relevant and support it - otherwise they have to admit they're losers.

Shall I go on?

No, please no.

I've heard better and more informed rantings from homeless drunks and those wearing tinfoil on their head.

bwiese
03-20-2010, 1:32 AM
Probably not 10X. But they do get compensation for interest and attorney's fees. Would you accept no interest/growth on your money when it's tied up for years - or would you switch 401K plans?

Bottom line, people were sold a home in a community. They got some interest in a sandlot.

These folks weren't asking for appreciation of real estate or arguing about dropped values like today's mortgage-rework seekers. Alll they wanted to see was some houses built where they could live (and perhaps shoot nearby).

They paid $$$$ and didn't get it.

[quote]We all know that whether or not you lose in court never depends on who has the best lawyer and that if you lose, you must have been wrong...and doesnt matter that the majority of those involved in the land deal didnt choose to sue and were offered their money back but declined.
I'd like to meet a person who lost hundreds of thousands of dollars and said, "Nahh, don't worry about it. We knew you were just kiddin' around..."

Maybe your declinees you write of were some highly pious nuns that wanted to move their convent to FrontSight and did not like confrontation.



And those who sued won. If Piazza had some decent legal argument, he would have one, but he didn't. What does that say? It says that he had really bad idea and it bit him.

Yup. Many would call his real estate biz way more than "a bad idea".

MP301
03-20-2010, 2:51 AM
Probably not 10X. But they do get compensation for interest and attorney's fees. Would you accept no interest/growth on your money when it's tied up for years - or would you switch 401K plans?

Bottom line, people were sold a home in a community. They got some interest in a sandlot.

These folks weren't asking for appreciation of real estate or arguing about dropped values like today's mortgage-rework seekers. Alll they wanted to see was some houses built where they could live (and perhaps shoot nearby).

They paid $$$$ and didn't get it.

I'd like to meet a person who lost hundreds of thousands of dollars and said, "Nahh, don't worry about it. We knew you were just kiddin' around..."

Maybe your declinees you write of were some highly pious nuns that wanted to move their convent to FrontSight and did not like confrontation.


I agree with what your saying Bill. Piazza F'd up, no question about it. He is still paying for it and will be for a long time. Im sure even he will agree with that statement.

If the Piazza hate fests didnt come up in the manner they did, I (and many others), would just keep our mouths shut. But It usually goes something like this

"Im thinking about going to Front sight, I heard it is good training. Has anyone been there?....."

"Aw Man, Piazza is a douchbag...oh man....Scientologist....man oh man....ripped of a bunch of people...oh oh...showed this video.....dude...high pressure sales.....I wouldnt give a dime to that POS...etc etc."

"oh wow, thanks for telling me..I wont give that POS any of my money....baaaa"

Do you see what the problem is and why I am concerned with this? Do you think anything he has done is so evil that it warrants steering people away from benefitting from the training just to spite Piazza? I think that is chicken**** to screw a fellow calgunner to grind the Piazza ax, dont you?

And lets look at the positives here.

Great instructors. These are usually LE and Military...without the boot camp style so often seen elsewhere.

Great Training. Just ask those who have attended. It is the only program I have seen that can consistantly teach the way it does....literally hundreds of students at a time.

Great message. I have seen first hand how the idea of changing the image of gun ownership works there. All of the non gunnies from every walk of life as well as the LE, Mlitary and gunny crew as well.

Value. I know of no other school with a membership. So I know of no other school that will allow you to attend for free for life once the membership is paid for. How often will a person go if the have to pay a few hundred dollars every time they want attend? My Diamond membership costs me $99 a month and will be a total of around $10,000 when its paid off. I average attending 4-5 times a year. If I had to pay each time I went, and I went 4-5 times a year, how much would it cost me based on what the other guys charge per class. AND, there are approximately 45-50 different classes to choose from...so my biggest issue is usually a) which class do I want to do next b) How the F am I gonna do all of these classes before I die? They never cancel a class either and with 2 weeks notice, your guaranteed placement. The track record is 100%. I my first four day pistol class in a snow storm....cancel? No, they just said there is no extra charge for teaching us how to shoot in inclement weather....:rolleyes:

I really and truly believe in the second amendment and I really and truly believe that gun owners should be responsible and learn all they can. So, where I can appreciate someone coming along and saying "Piazza is a douchebag, but the school is great" I have an issue with the blanket attacks that screw the uneducated out of the training.

Ill tell you what Bill, just like some of the others have done, I can invite 40 people for a four day class. It can be free or we can charge a fee with ALL proceeds going to CGF. We can invite the Piazza haters so they can at least make the seperation between the good and bad.

Whaddya say? We can work on a future date that works for everyone...Sound like a plan? Proceeds to a good cause?

P.S. Dont worry HCz, the annoyance factor is strong with you! Your right near the top of the invite list!:p


P.P.S.

Here is an interesting article from Jeff Knox...

A Front Sight Experience
Written by Jeff Knox, on 10-24-2008 14:53


The Knox Report
From the Firearms Coalition


The Front Sight Experience


By Jeff Knox from www.FirearmsCoalition.org



(September 30, 2008) After four days, over 700 rounds fired and at least 2000 presentations from the holster, the folks at Front Sight Firearms Academy outside Las Vegas asked me what I thought of their four-day Defensive Handgun course. I told them that I was impressed. I have been shooting for over 40 years. I’ve shot and trained with some of the most prominent firearms experts in the world, and I’ve been carrying and competing with the same Colt Combat Commander for over 24 years, but even with all of that experience, I learned a lot in 4 days at Front Sight.

I attended the course along with my brother Chris and my best friend Danny Tope. We all experienced dramatic improvement in our shooting skills and learned techniques for continued improvement. We found value in the classroom time as well. The lectures on the use of deadly force helped to give structure to what was previously a somewhat ambiguous thought process regarding when, where, and why I might use a gun. I found that the careful analysis of the moral, ethical, and legal issues surrounding the use of deadly force helped to crystallize my own philosophy and give me a better understanding of some of the emotional and legal pitfalls that are involved. Those lectures and that clearer understanding were worth the price of admission.

I don’t ever want to end the life of another person. I understand that the objective of firearms self-defense is never to kill an opponent, but to stop an attacker before an innocent is seriously hurt or killed. Unfortunately, the only sure ways to quickly and effectively stop a determined attacker are also very likely to result in the attacker’s death. When that happens the emotional and spiritual toll is typically a heavy burden filled with self-doubt and second guessing, even when there is no question that the shooting was justified and unavoidable. Some handle these effects better than others, but even those rare individuals who are at personal peace with themselves and their decision, still could face serious life-altering consequences from criminal or civil courts.

One of the issues that need to be considered in advance by anyone who chooses to carry a gun for defense of self or others is exactly when and why they might use the gun. Capturing criminals, stopping thieves, or exacting revenge are all bad reasons for using a gun. Deadly force should only be employed to stop an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury to an innocent. Who that innocent is and whether you are willing to risk your life or possibly take another’s on their behalf are important questions. Some people have a stronger sense of public obligation than others and are more inclined to take risks for strangers while others are not so inclined, drawing the line at close family only, and that might be the best plan. Imagine the tragedy of intervening with deadly force on a stranger’s behalf only to find that you’ve harmed or killed the wrong person or an innocent pulling a stupid prank. While such mistakes are incredibly rare, it is important to have the possibility in your mind before the mistake is made and thereby hopefully avoid it altogether.

Front Sight teaches that the best gun fight is always the one that is avoided and they are absolutely right. The better a person understands the issues involved in deploying deadly force the less likely they are to go for a gun in a circumstance which might not warrant it.

Like many, Chris and I were skeptical about taking a course at Front Sight. Their aggressive marketing tactics reminded us of the hype of late night infomercials and suggested to us that, like the products sold on late night TV, Front Sight’s products might be of a lower quality than implied and of less value.

After spending four intensive days there, I can tell you that nothing could be farther from the truth. Not having attended other schools, I cannot make a fair comparison, but I can tell you that we found the instructors and the training to be absolutely first rate and we’re looking forward to the next opportunity we might have to attend a course to further hone our skills.

Chris and I still have a few questions about the broader business aspects of Front Sight and whether we might be willing to become more deeply involved, but our experience there has convinced us to add a Front Sight banner ad to our web sites which will generate a small payment each time someone enrolls for a course through our site. So if you are interested in learning more about Front Sight, we encourage you to click on the banner ad at www.FirearmsCoalition.org since any revenue realized from the ad placement is earmarked to go toward our next Front Sight experience.



Permission to reprint or post this article in its entirety for non-commercial purposes is hereby granted provided this credit is included. Text is available at www.FirearmsCoalition.org. To receive The Firearms Coalition’s bi-monthly newsletter, The Hard Corps Report, write to PO Box 3313, Manassas, VA 20108.

©Copyright 2008 Neal Knox Associates


http://www.firearmscoalition.org/tfc1//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=273&Itemid=37

wildhawker
03-20-2010, 9:34 AM
MP, I began my comments entirely directed at Piazza. However, it's asinine to think that I cannot also - legitimately - tell people to avoid FS because of his deceptive practices, lack of professionalism, etc. There are plenty of *good people* with *good training* to support with my money and my voice, and yours also.

To make the argument that I cannot argue against Dr. Piazza and his holdings/interests (including FS) simply because it may or may not have some indirect benefit to the culture is silly. He's a POS, and I (as a consumer) have absolutely no intention of supporting him, period - he burned his bridge with me, and now he gets to live with another vocal opponent. That's the market at work.

Lastly, thanks for that bit of wisdom from the Knox clan. That's not what I'd consider a persuasive source of info.

HCz
03-20-2010, 11:31 AM
If the Piazza hate fests didnt come up in the manner they did, I (and many others), would just keep our mouths shut. But It usually goes something like this

"Im thinking about going to Front sight, I heard it is good training. Has anyone been there?....."

"Aw Man, Piazza is a douchbag...oh man....Scientologist....man oh man....ripped of a bunch of people...oh oh...showed this video.....dude...high pressure sales.....I wouldnt give a dime to that POS...etc etc."

"oh wow, thanks for telling me..I wont give that POS any of my money....baaaa"

Which all could have been avoided if Piazza himself act a bit more professionally instead of feeding his ego. The reaction that you see here is not something that popped out of no where, but accumulation of his own deeds.
Do you see what the problem is and why I am concerned with this? Do you think anything he has done is so evil that it warrants steering people away from benefitting from the training just to spite Piazza? I think that is chicken**** to screw a fellow calgunner to grind the Piazza ax, dont you?
Actually, there are many more trainers and schools that have far less problems. Why settle for a school led by someone who has a controversy or two following him at all times?

And again, you are equating criticism of Piazza with the training at FS, which was not people were posting here, but YOU made it out so and then call for separating the issue. In other words, whether you consciencely admit it or not, you take criticism of Piazza as a criticism of FS, and have no problem calling for separating both entities when it is beneficial for you, but still connect it if needed.

Great instructors. These are usually LE and Military...without the boot camp style so often seen elsewhere.
I really don't get that 'militant' mentality you talk about. I've been to a lot of classes here and there but never experienced such militant behavior. Maybe I am one of those people who have a thick skin, or you just ended up with the wrong trainers/schools in the past and is enarmoured with FS, or both.
Great Training. Just ask those who have attended. It is the only program I have seen that can consistantly teach the way it does....literally hundreds of students at a time.

There are other more reputable schools that achieve that and not become a mass production line of students
Great message. I have seen first hand how the idea of changing the image of gun ownership works there. All of the non gunnies from every walk of life as well as the LE, Mlitary and gunny crew as well.
A lot of classes I took had people from various walks of life. This is nothing new and FS can't claim that they are the best on that.

Value. I know of no other school with a membership. So I know of no other school that will allow you to attend for free for life once the membership is paid for. How often will a person go if the have to pay a few hundred dollars every time they want attend? My Diamond membership costs me $99 a month and will be a total of around $10,000 when its paid off. I average attending 4-5 times a year. If I had to pay each time I went, and I went 4-5 times a year, how much would it cost me based on what the other guys charge per class. AND, there are approximately 45-50 different classes to choose from...so my biggest issue is usually a) which class do I want to do next b) How the F am I gonna do all of these classes before I die? They never cancel a class either and with 2 weeks notice, your guaranteed placement. The track record is 100%. I my first four day pistol class in a snow storm....cancel? No, they just said there is no extra charge for teaching us how to shoot in inclement weather....
For 10k, I can go to about 20 different classes that are taught by world-class trainers, although it doesn't usually necessitate going back 4-5 times a year.

As for inclement weather, it is not something that makes FS stand out. There are other trainers who do the same.

I really and truly believe in the second amendment and I really and truly believe that gun owners should be responsible and learn all they can. So, where I can appreciate someone coming along and saying "Piazza is a douchebag, but the school is great" I have an issue with the blanket attacks that screw the uneducated out of the training.
You are stuck inside the well called Piazza. You need to get out. Piazza is not the only one or the best one for promoting the second amendment.

Dont worry HCz, the annoyance factor is strong with you! Your right near the top of the invite list!
:rofl: It is up to you to set up your own downfall, so I won't comment on that. ;)

MP301
03-20-2010, 2:27 PM
......

MP, I began my comments entirely directed at Piazza. However, it's asinine to think that I cannot also - legitimately - tell people to avoid FS because of his deceptive practices, lack of professionalism, etc. There are plenty of *good people* with *good training* to support with my money and my voice, and yours also.

I see. I mustbe missing something here because I think I know of the the Piazza bad stuff and it just not adding up to this view. There is delivery on everything he claims at FS..everyone there is professional... Geeze, you would think that he slept with someone's sister or something....It is not adding up

To make the argument that I cannot argue against Dr. Piazza and his holdings/interests (including FS) simply because it may or may not have some indirect benefit to the culture is silly. He's a POS, and I (as a consumer) have absolutely no intention of supporting him, period - he burned his bridge with me, and now he gets to live with another vocal opponent. That's the market at work.

No Brandon, you can argue whatever you want. But FS does benifit us....and it benefits us directly....And like it or not, it makes a difference.

Let me ask you this Brandon....and this is an honest question. Its not a personal attack so please dont take it that way....but, if you were to go back and reread reread your previous posts on this subject...how do you think the you they look? Is that professional behavior? Are you risking just your credibility or that of CG as well? I thought you are supposed to unite us gunnies (including the FS members) not seperate them, yes? This kind of crap, whether attacks directed at Piazza or the NRA or the UOC'ers or pick a target is really turning me off.

So, since you would not have to give Piazza one single dime, and would not have to be in the same state as Piazza, (which you are now)...are you willing to sign up for a "I hate Piazza FS shoot? Like I said, We could always charge a fee to go dirfectly to Calguns...[/B]


Lastly, thanks for that bit of wisdom from the Knox clan. That's not what I'd consider a persuasive source of info.

Im sorry you think lowly of the Knox folks.... I always liked them. Am I missing something?





:rofl: It is up to you to set up your own downfall, so I won't comment on that. ;)

My friend, im not even going to respond to your posts because it is the same stuff we have gone back and forth in theother thread. However, if I can put the "I hate Piazza FS shoot" together, you are definately invited.

MP301
03-20-2010, 2:33 PM
^^^^^
This

I've been to FS. I' loved the experience there. It was a good environment, and the training was great. But Piazza is an undeniable douche. The best thing that could happen to FS is to go bankrupt and get bought out. And if the current downward spiral of marketing continues, I'm guessing they will be insolvent in about a year.

BTW if you want to go to FS for dirt cheap and not give a dime to FS just get a cert off ebay.

Now see, this is what I like. You might believe all the bad you hear about Piazza and hate him, but you tell the truth about FS. That is all im asking...:p

I dont see the BK thing happening if all reports of it doubling in size are true (They looked likethey were breaking ground on new ranges last time I was there)... If it does, I sure hope some new "douche" doesnt change the program...:eek:

MP301
03-20-2010, 5:30 PM
It is a ponsi scheme about to colapse. It has all the signs. They become more desperate by the week to push the next marketing sale. I got about 15 last offers for their last sale. The last 5 of them said absolutely last offer (whatever that means).

Doubleing in size refers to members and attendance. That much may very well be true, but that is how ponsi schemes work. You have to look at the money comming in versus expenses and how that is likely to continue. Considereing the cost of lifetime membership keeps plumiting, and they are just running one marketing run after the next to keep afloat, I'd say they are on thin ice. Also consider that most of their attendance is ebay certs and previous members - neither result in a positive cash flow. Soon enought the payroll checks will start bounching and that will be the beginning of the end.

You may be right, I dont claim to understand the math at all...not my area of expertise. But, during one of the "discussions" about FS over the last year on this forum, some guy posted on one of the threads and claimed that that companies he worked for have used that type of marketing and that it does work...and is not a ponzi scheme, etc. He even explained a bit, but I cant remember the details....I wish I had the time to find that post.. Maybe the guy is still around and will catrch up to us...In any case, I dont know personally. I wont say I dont care because I want it to be around a long long time....But, you could be right. Time will tell.

The reason I decided to get a membership is because I knew I would use it. I signed up for the monthly payments because if FS tanks, I can stop paying and write off what I have already spent as break even because I have used it a bunch and learned so much. If it is still around when Im done paying and im still using it, then it is all icing on the cake.

I understand memberships are not for everyone...and some of the members ive talked to from out of state only make it every year or two...I dont think I would do that....but whatever rocks their boat I guess.

ZombieTactics
03-20-2010, 6:11 PM
It is a ponsi scheme about to colapse. It has all the signs. They become more desperate by the week to push the next marketing sale. I got about 15 last offers for their last sale. The last 5 of them said absolutely last offer (whatever that means).
A "Ponzi scheme" means something pretty specific. FS doesn't operate anything like a Ponzi scheme, but rather pretty much like all sorts of gym memberships and similar financial structures. Calling FS a "Ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme reveals you absolutely no idea at all what you are talking about ... period. FS has sent out a figurative ton of offers for years. Most of the offers have some sort of expiration date. It's cheezy but effective marketing. This isn't something new, it's just business as usual.

Doubleing in size refers to members and attendance. That much may very well be true, but that is how ponsi schemes work. You have to look at the money comming in versus expenses and how that is likely to continue. Considereing the cost of lifetime membership keeps plumiting, and they are just running one marketing run after the next to keep afloat, I'd say they are on thin ice. Also consider that most of their attendance is ebay certs and previous members - neither result in a positive cash flow. Soon enought the payroll checks will start bounching and that will be the beginning of the end. Jeez the number of factual errors here is astounding. It seems that you are willing to just say anything, with zero respect for the truth.

This is the kind of thing that really bugs those of us who know better. If you have a beef with Piazza or FS, PLEASE at least base it upon something real.

MP301
03-20-2010, 10:02 PM
The system of marketing is not the problem. It is the downward spiral of the pricing contrasted by the upward spiral in expenses.

Your attitude is about as fair as it gets. If I had a bunch of time and money for hotels and ammo, I'd have gotten one of the "foreclosed" memberships for $2K with the same rational. But I'm lucky if I can afford the time and money to go shooting more than a few times a year even at local ranges.

What is cool is that most times I go (I live in Pioneer, about a 7 hour drive to FS) one or two of my friends go with me...we split the gas and split the $42 a night room at saddle west (even comes with a free meal each day you stay) and it gets pretty affordable. Ammo is another issue of course, but its usually only 400 rds for the advanced 2 day classes and even though I carry a .45 Sig P220 at work, I take my P226 9mm to train....they are identical in function and I dont notice the difference in recoil at all....I just have to remember that I only have half as many rds at work then I do when I train!:mad:

A "Ponzi scheme" means something pretty specific. FS doesn't operate anything like a Ponzi scheme, but rather pretty much like all sorts of gym memberships and similar financial structures. Calling FS a "Ponzi" or "pyramid" scheme reveals you absolutely no idea at all what you are talking about ... period. FS has sent out a figurative ton of offers for years. Most of the offers have some sort of expiration date. It's cheezy but effective marketing. This isn't something new, it's just business as usual.

Jeez the number of factual errors here is astounding. It seems that you are willing to just say anything, with zero respect for the truth.

This is the kind of thing that really bugs those of us who no better. If you have a beef with Piazza or FS, PLEASE at least base it upon something real.

You know, I have to agree with you that it is not a Ponzi scheme. Not that I am all that familiar on the dynamics of those things, but as much as some folks hate Piazza, there is a lot of incentive for someone to get something on him to put his *** in jail. I would also imagine and am pretty certain, that after he lost his law suit, the court went through his finances with a microscope. This would most likely mean sudden prosecution in that event...

Roadrunner
03-21-2010, 9:34 AM
Does anybody know how to retract an Ebay Bid?






I wanted to get my kid a "Mickey Mouse Outfit" and now I'm six minutes away from buying Hunt's Campaign staff.

You're screwed.

HCz
03-21-2010, 10:36 AM
My friend, im not even going to respond to your posts because it is the same stuff we have gone back and forth in theother thread. However, if I can put the "I hate Piazza FS shoot" together, you are definately invited.
And yet by posting above you did respond. It is the same stuff because you are still using the same talking points. Almost everytime FS thread appears, I can see that you rush in to make it out as if it is the best thing since Jeff Cooper was born, but there are enough problems with Piazza, and some followers, that it is actually an embarrasment.

IGOTDIRT4U
03-22-2010, 8:35 AM
I like to feel self important every once in a while too but in answer to your question no. Why don't you just say 100,000. It's just as believable.

Fail. I keep having this image of an ostrich, head in sand. *hits ignore button for this user*

ZombieTactics
03-22-2010, 12:40 PM
Lots of insulting fluff, but no substance... period :rolleyes:

FS started roughly a decade ago selling future rights to deeds that would hopefully exist at some point. They got nailed to the wall for it in court. Not so fast Mr. Wannabe lawyer. Piazza was charged with several things, some of which were felonies, and some of which were mere civil complaints. The state never even pursued any of the criminal stuff, because there was zero evidence to support the claims. The civil stuff was settled, and no judgement was ever entered. This is hardly getting "nailed to the wall".

Since then the going rate for lifetime memberships and single courses have gone down drastically. I've been following FS marketing for a few years now. The prices continue to fall, while they continue to take on more expenses.
Actually, as a matter of simple fact, prices have not fallen. A 4-day class (at full price) was priced at $600 in 1996, today it is priced at $2000. All of the standard memberships are now priced higher than their original price. A "Self Reliance" membership was $1200 a couple of years ago, and $1499 earlier this year ... it recently went up to $1599. From what I can tell the price of almost every membership level has gone up over the years, including several instance after settlement. Deals of one kind or another are offered all the time, and I think this is causing some confusion on your part. This is well known as a "tiered affinity" marketing and pricing system used by all sorts of organizations. The NRA - for instance - shows $1000 for a lifetime membership on their website, but they regularly offer huge discounts for special promotions, family members, etc. ... this is hardly eveidence that they are a Ponzi scheme spiraling into oblivion.

(feel free to point out any factual errors here - if you are going to insult somebody, at least have something to back it up other than keyboard bravado) [/I] A common sign of a failing Ponzi scheme is a downward spiral of the asking price for new investors. It is a last ditch effort to maintain cash flow to provide an illusion of sustainability to new investors.
Well it's nice to know you've googled up well enough to finally start spelling it correctly, lol. Even so, you've managed to mangle the meaning, and you are factually incorrect. A Ponzi scheme is a type of investment fraud whereby people are promised a high rate of return on their investment, and where the primary or sole source of increased revenues (and any ROI) is the sale of increasing multiples of new shares.

Most businesses and people pay for "current expenses on the basis of future receipts" all the time ... you do exactly that when you take out a business or car loan, and their is nothing "Ponzi" about it. An FS membership is not an investment promising an ROI ... it's a membership in a training facility just like a health club. I haven't invested my membership fees expecting (nor have I been promised) some profit or ROI ... I am not an investor, but a member. You need to get your terms straight and stop conflating things.

Operating a Ponzi scheme is a felony, which is why Bernie Madoff is in prison, and why Piazza is not.

Again, you're simply don't know what you are talking about ... period. It's not fun to get caught, but you should man up and deal with it. "... nsulting fluff, but no substance ... indeed.

ZombieTactics
03-22-2010, 12:52 PM
Now let's take these others point-by point:

Doubleing in size refers to members and attendance. Actually, Piazza has been clear that "doubling" has meant in one part or another of FS operations. In some cases this has been as simple as doubling the number of trainers, or the square-footage of developed ranges. Factually, you are incorrect.

Considereing the cost of lifetime membership keeps plumiting, and they are just running one marketing run after the next to keep afloat, I'd say they are on thin ice. Already answered above ... factually incorrect.

Also consider that most of their attendance is ebay certs and previous members - neither result in a positive cash flow. Really? OK stop right here and show some reliable evidence for that assertion that most attendance is from eBay certs and previous members. Otherwise, man up and admit that you made it up or just "heard it somewhere"without any real knowledge. Just to be clear, I know all sorts of business who often have to delay payroll or are slow to pay certain vendors. I have no doubt that FS has had similar issues before and will again in the future ... not quite the same thing though.


Soon enought the payroll checks will start bounching and that will be the beginning of the end. Soon enough? How soon? A year? Two? Would you like to set up escrow for a very public wager?

ZombieTactics
03-22-2010, 1:20 PM
Point being it was not a measure of positive cash flow. No, the point is you said one thing when it was in fact something other. You were wrong. Period.

I've been there. There were a lot of people there, and I didn't hear from anybody that paid $2K for the 4 day course. I've been there as well ... several times, and I met many people who paid full price. So, we have a different experience so far, which proves nothing. You asserted that most people are there on eBay certs or are returning members, and I am asking you to back it up. "I've been there" doesn't prove anything ... what reliable evidence do you have? It seems you've admitted that you have no basis for your assertion but a conversation or two. Why can't you simply be honest and admit you really don't know one way or another?

I'm guessing about a year and a half. I'm not wagering, just guessing. How brave of you.

So really, what investment do you have in FS to get so vicious about one persons prediction that they are running a business model similar to a ponsi (sp just for you;)) scheme and are destined to collapse? I have no "investment" in FS. I don't think you made a prediction, but rather an accusation ... you seem to have a fuzzier grasp of language as we go along. I don't believe that asking someone to simply be honest about what they know and what they don't know is "vicious".

ZombieTactics
03-22-2010, 1:35 PM
First off, go blow yourself if all you can do is fling names. Pot ... meet Mr. Kettle.

Settled, reneged on settlement, got held in contempt of court, FS in receivership for little bit... I'd say they got hosed down. Settled, failed to fund settlement account soon enough, was never charged with contempt, lots of typical legal wrangling and maneuvering, seems it's all settled. Ever been sued? Care to comment how fair the system is?

I haven't met many fools who payed full price for anything from FS. I'm talking about actual going rates. The decline in going rates was even part of the law suit. Again with the name calling, Mr. Pot? Why don't you document some of those "going rates" which have declined. Or did you "talk to a guy" again or something?

Oh no. A spelling error on a forum. Whatever shall I do? Get an education. or at least pay attention to the spell checker. Then again, you have sort of a general problem with accuracy, so maybe that's asking too much.

Sound like a pretty good corollary to what FS is advertising. It may not be a ponzi scheme in the financial fraud sense, but it is the same idea. Oh now it's "the same idea" ... nice how you weasel out without managing to simply be honest and admit you didn't know what you were talking about in the first place.

ZombieTactics
03-22-2010, 1:36 PM
I'm not sure what the source of you attitude malfunction is, but enough of my time has been wasted. Welcome to the ignore list. Population: you The convenient recourse of a scoundrel.

I don't have a problem with anyone who thinks Piazza is a class-A jerk. I do have a problem with people who just make stuff up and have no regard for accuracy or intellectual honesty.

ZombieTactics
03-22-2010, 2:01 PM
I just realized your the same guy that thought bwiese's page long post lacked detail and got your panties in a bunch when somebody suggested you simply show up at things if you want word for word detail. Everything makes much more sense now. I am glad that this critically important issue has been settled for you. I am certain the point is clear in your own fevered imagination. If you need help with that ignore button ...

As far as I know, there is no enmity between Bill and I, and there shouldn't be. I asked for too much, and admitted as much.

ZombieTactics
03-22-2010, 6:36 PM
Arguably true, or matters of Opinion? Methinks Ye doth protest too much.*
Not sure I get your meaning.

*(Hamlet, Act 3 Scene 2, BTW ... or a mangling of it ... methinks.)