PDA

View Full Version : The 922r and Benelli M4 debate is still going on?


thefitter
03-18-2010, 2:58 PM
Seems like quite a few people, particularly over at the Benelli US forum are still counting and switching out extra parts when they want to add the mag extension.

I have been checking into this lately and thought I would run this by people here. I apologize now if this is already known by everyone. Some of the individuals over at the other forum were upset about having to read something they already knew. :rolleyes:

The Federal Assault Weapons Ban 0f 1994 stated:

Semi-automatic shotguns with two or more of the following Are considered assault weapons:

* Folding or telescoping stock
* Pistol grip
* Fixed capacity of more than 5 rounds
* Detachable magazine

The Federal Assault Weapons Ban 0f 1994 expired on September 13, 2004. BEFORE this date Benelli could not import the M4 with the full length tube.

922r states:

"It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) (specifically the 'sporting purposes test')of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to…”

The Benelli M4 has never been formally restricted for importation with a full-length magazine tube AFTER September 13, 2004 under - the “sporting purposes test” of the The Gun Control Act , 18 U.S.C. § 925(d)(3). Because the BATFE has never ruled that the M4 with full-length magazine tube has FAILED the “sporting purposes test” under the Gun Control Act.

So that would mean that since September 13, 2004 Benelli has chosen to import the M4 with a capacity of 4+1 NOT because of any CURRENT law imposed on it’s importation or BATFE ruling.

Therefore 922r does not apply to any M4 in any configuration. The only limitations are state imposed.

For the California guys:
Current California Assault Weapons Guide lines-

Shotguns:

(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has BOTH of the following:
(A) A folding or telescoping stock.
(B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or
vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.


If I am wrong or have missed anything please provide solid reasoning and documentation. I do not think I have all the answers, I just keep digging and learning as much as possible.

Aleksandr Mravinsky
03-18-2010, 3:30 PM
Using the shotgun flowchart, it seems like it would be legal if you were to remove either the pistol grip or the adjustable stock. I seem to remember something about a magazine limit, but that was just hearsay. I don't recall actually reading it anywhere.

adamsreeftank
03-18-2010, 3:54 PM
I'd also be curious to know what the legal definition of "sporting purposes" is. At the time the law was written, the thinking may have been around a duck-hunting type gun with a round count limited by Fish and Game regs. Now that we have 3-gun and other shooting sports, the definition would seem to be broader.

wash
03-18-2010, 3:59 PM
922(r) has to be one of the most vague and poorly enforced laws out there.

I have a PS90 and it's 100% foreign made. It must be sporting...

I think that nothing is truly prohibited any more so 922(r) has lost it's teeth entirely. I just won't be the one to test it and I like the fact that it has prolifrated U.S. gun parts manufacturers.

One of these days I think it will be thrown out entirely but it doesn't seem urgent.

Maestro Pistolero
03-18-2010, 4:18 PM
I'd also be curious to know what the legal definition of "sporting purposes" is. At the time the law was written, the thinking may have been around a duck-hunting type gun with a round count limited by Fish and Game regs. Now that we have 3-gun and other shooting sports, the definition would seem to be broader.

Post-incorporation, any lawful purpose can be argued to be protected under the second amendment. A sporting purposes restriction will not survive any scrutiny.

Sheepdog1968
03-18-2010, 4:28 PM
I spent hours looking into this a year ago. My take was the following:
1. If I want a benelli then I would keep it stock and not change out the mag tube.
2. I would not get it with a pistol grip.
3. If I wanted an increased capacity shot gun I'd go with the Mossberg 930 SPX and not the Benelli.

I am likely being more conserative than I need to. I don't want to risk needing to hire a laywer and spending 10K+ to sort it out.

thefitter
03-18-2010, 4:37 PM
I'd also be curious to know what the legal definition of "sporting purposes" is. At the time the law was written, the thinking may have been around a duck-hunting type gun with a round count limited by Fish and Game regs. Now that we have 3-gun and other shooting sports, the definition would seem to be broader.

This is what I was able to dig up. I can not vouch for the source.

'sporting purposes test' -

Non-Sporting Features

* Ability to accept a large capacity magazine ( a 7 round tube is not large capacity)
* Folding/telescoping stocks
* Pistol grips (Hmm... it's already imported in this configuration, that's odd!?)
* Ability to accept a bayonet
* Flash suppressors / hiders - the "capacity to accept" tends to be invoked here, which is why threaded barrels aren't common to find on imported guns.
* Integrated, military-style butt stocks
* Grenade launchers
* Night sights

ke6guj
03-18-2010, 4:41 PM
Using the shotgun flowchart, it seems like it would be legal if you were to remove either the pistol grip or the adjustable stock. I seem to remember something about a magazine limit, but that was just hearsay. I don't recall actually reading it anywhere.The SG flowchart deals with the legality of the shotgun as it sits there and its possession. 922(r) does not apply to the possession of the firearm, so it is not covered by the flowchart.

thefitter
03-18-2010, 5:05 PM
The SG flowchart deals with the legality of the shotgun as it sits there and its possession. 922(r) does not apply to the possession of the firearm, so it is not covered by the flowchart.

922(r) applies to the modification/manufacturing of the firearm.

Ding126
03-18-2010, 5:07 PM
ATF Response pg 1 http://i30.tinypic.com/sxhn2r.jpg
ATF Response pg 2 http://i26.tinypic.com/etwkkn.jpg

Here is a list of the parts that the Chief listed in the letter for quick reference.
1) Receiver
2) Barrel
3) Bolt
4) Bolt Carrier
5) Gas Piston
6) Trigger Housing
7) Trigger
8) Hammer
9) Disconnector
10) Buttstocks
11) Forearm
12) Magazine body
13) Followers

Kharn
03-18-2010, 5:13 PM
The 1994 ban and the import ban are different laws, so the sunset of the 94 AWB does not affect this situation.

CHS
03-18-2010, 5:21 PM
ATF Response pg 1 http://i30.tinypic.com/sxhn2r.jpg
ATF Response pg 2 http://i26.tinypic.com/etwkkn.jpg


I was going to mention this letter specifically, but you beat me to it!

Yeah, the letter is dated 2009, well after the expiration of the Federal AWB. The ATF is clearly taking the position that a shotgun with a capacity of more than 5 rounds is barred from import, meaning that 922r absolutely applies if someone is to add a magazine extension.

Now, if it's actually enforceable or backed by law might be in question, but usually when the ATF says something, no one argues without going to jail.

ChuckBooty
03-18-2010, 5:41 PM
922(r) is an unenforceable piece of CRAP law. The law bans manufacturing only, by the way. Not possession. Simply possessing a rifle at a range or on BLM land (or in your own house for that matter) doesn't give an LEO PC to tear your rifle (or shotgun in this case) apart and check where each little part was manufactured.
Also....notice that the law does not state that the parts need to be marked with "Made in the USA" either. So how does anyone PROVE where a particular spring was made?

Ding126
03-18-2010, 5:59 PM
^^ metallurgy

M. Sage
03-18-2010, 6:39 PM
ATF Response pg 1 http://i30.tinypic.com/sxhn2r.jpg
ATF Response pg 2 http://i26.tinypic.com/etwkkn.jpg


Did you see in the end of that second letter, it looks like the person who wrote the letter seems to be under the impression that the Benelli M4 has a detachable magazine?

ChuckBooty
03-18-2010, 7:25 PM
^^ metallurgy

After looking up that word I've decided to say this: LOL! ;)

thefitter
03-19-2010, 3:20 PM
I was going to mention this letter specifically, but you beat me to it!

Yeah, the letter is dated 2009, well after the expiration of the Federal AWB. The ATF is clearly taking the position that a shotgun with a capacity of more than 5 rounds is barred from import, meaning that 922r absolutely applies if someone is to add a magazine extension.

Now, if it's actually enforceable or backed by law might be in question, but usually when the ATF says something, no one argues without going to jail.

The 1994 ban and the import ban are different laws, so the sunset of the 94 AWB does not affect this situation.

Yes you are right, but I was not willing to accept that one letter as gospel. But it looks like my original premise is inaccurate, because unfortunately I have found another BATFE document that indirectly seems to state that importing shotguns with magazine capacities of more than 5 rounds is indeed still prohibited even after the September 2004 Assault Weapons Ban expiration.

The bizarre thing is that it does not seem to differentiate between semi-auto and pump!? Could this possibly be something American gun manufactures lobbied for to protect their own business interests, and corner the tactical shotgun market? Sounds crazy.

What I want to find is some sort of official detailed listing of importation regulations.

Pvt. Cowboy
03-19-2010, 3:42 PM
Post-incorporation, any lawful purpose can be argued to be protected under the second amendment. A sporting purposes restriction will not survive any scrutiny.

This is what I expect as well.

The Fugitive
03-19-2010, 11:46 PM
^^ metallurgy

lol thank you detective. now i will have to find another excuse to explain the identical replica parts that are 922r compliant on my m4. :p

freshdesigns@hotmail.com
08-26-2010, 9:23 PM
I was seriously considering a M4, but would want to add the mag extension. What a mess! Our govt. at work!!

So are Benelli standard stock configurations readily available to replace the pistol grip? I'm not in love with pistol grips anyway, so if I add a mag extension and get a standard stock, am I cool?

randy
08-27-2010, 1:21 AM
If 922r concerns you buy a $60.00 tube from www.davesmetalworks.com. It is a complete tube so there's one feature. Ask him for a follower and now you have two parts. Buy a Surefire fore end and now you have 3 parts.

adamsreeftank
08-27-2010, 1:32 AM
If 922r concerns you buy a $60.00 tube from www.davesmetalworks.com. It is a complete tube so there's one feature. Ask him for a follower and now you have two parts. Buy a Surefire fore end and now you have 3 parts.

The tube and the follower are the easy part, but I'm not a fan of any of the aftermarket fore ends. I like the original look.

At this point I'm considering making one of the following: hammer, sear, gas pistons, molded copy of the original hand guards.

randy
08-27-2010, 1:51 AM
I'm not sure at what point you are manufacturing a part but you could buy a hammer/trigger/disconnector strip off the chrome machine it a bit refinish it and perhaps have a American made part.

I don't know how much it would cost to make the gas pistons but they are worth a try also.

GM4spd
08-27-2010, 7:16 AM
Has anyone seen/ heard of a person being prosecuted for a 922r violation?
I have asked this question on a couple of AW type forums and noone has
produced one. Does not mean it hasn't happened but makes you wonder
how enforceable this law is. Pete

uzigalil
08-27-2010, 7:25 AM
922R is A lot like the gas powered leaf blower Ban in LA

Ding126
08-27-2010, 7:39 AM
You could also read the 922r as it states manufacturer or importer which I am not. I am the consumer. So does it apply to me?

GM4spd
08-27-2010, 7:53 AM
You could also read the 922r as it states manufacturer or importer which I am not. I am the consumer. So does it apply to me?


Very valid point. My thoughts exactly---yet you have guys scurrying
around buying US made pistons,mag floorplates,etc(myself included):(

Pete

pullnshoot25
08-27-2010, 8:34 AM
A manufacturer I am not. Therefore, I shall not worry.

adamsreeftank
08-27-2010, 11:14 AM
If you turn a compliant gun into a non-compliant gun, have you "manufactured" it? I don't personally think so, but I don't make or enforce the rules.

If you take you BB'd OLL and swap out the BB, you might be charged with "manufacturing" an AW. I would think the same type of reasoning would potentially apply.

pullnshoot25
08-27-2010, 11:26 AM
If you turn a compliant gun into a non-compliant gun, have you "manufactured" it? I don't personally think so, but I don't make or enforce the rules.

If you take you BB'd OLL and swap out the BB, you might be charged with "manufacturing" an AW. I would think the same type of reasoning would potentially apply.

Isn't that a state thing, not a federal thing?

CAL.BAR
08-27-2010, 11:35 AM
I'm so tired of everyone worrying about 922(r). For G*D's sake, you're more likely to be audited by the Franchise Tax Board for not paying sales tax on the compliance parts you mail order than you are for being questioned about 922 issues. (really) But I don't see half a dozen posts on making sure you notify the FTB of your out of state purchases.

Ding126
08-27-2010, 12:12 PM
I'm so tired of everyone worrying about 922(r). For G*D's sake, you're more likely to be audited by the Franchise Tax Board for not paying sales tax on the compliance parts you mail order than you are for being questioned about 922 issues. (really) But I don't see half a dozen posts on making sure you notify the FTB of your out of state purchases.

+1
Can someone show me a case where 922r was in violation and the owner is being charged. Until then I'm not going to worry

Mssr. Eleganté
08-27-2010, 7:53 PM
You could also read the 922r as it states manufacturer or importer which I am not. I am the consumer. So does it apply to me?

Have you actually read 922(r)? There is absolutely no mention at all of manufacturers or importers. There is no mention of manufacturing either.

922(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes...

Mssr. Eleganté
08-27-2010, 8:00 PM
..So are Benelli standard stock configurations readily available to replace the pistol grip? I'm not in love with pistol grips anyway, so if I add a mag extension and get a standard stock, am I cool?

The greater than 5 round magazine tube is a prohibiting feature on its own for imported shotguns. A regular stocked pump action shotgun with a six round magazine tube is prohibited from importation.

Ding126
08-27-2010, 8:52 PM
Have you actually read 922(r)? There is absolutely no mention at all of manufacturers or importers. There is no mention of manufacturing either.

sorry to split hairs..I was referring to 922 as a hole and not specifically (r)

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

922. Unlawful acts
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(1) for any person—
(A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, or in the course of such business to ship, transport, or receive any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce; or
(B) except a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, to engage in the business of importing or manufacturing ammunition, or in the course of such business, to ship, transport, or receive any ammunition in interstate or foreign commerce;
(2) for any importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector licensed under the provisions of this chapter to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, except that—
(A) this paragraph and subsection (b)(3) shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector from returning a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received; and this paragraph shall not be held to preclude an individual from mailing a firearm owned in compliance with Federal, State, and local law to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector;
(B) this paragraph shall not be held to preclude a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer from depositing a firearm for conveyance in the mails to any officer, employee, agent, or watchman who, pursuant to the provisions of section 1715 of this title, is eligible to receive through the mails pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person, for use in connection with his official duty; and
(C) nothing in this paragraph shall be construed as applying in any manner in the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any possession of the United States differently than it would apply if the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or the possession were in fact a State of the United States;
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;
(4) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, to transport in interstate or foreign commerce any destructive device, machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986), short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, except as specifically authorized by the Attorney General consistent with public safety and necessity;
(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and............................................... ..................................blah blah blah..........

(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925 (d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to—
(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General.
(

Mssr. Eleganté
08-27-2010, 9:14 PM
sorry to split hairs..I was referring to 922 as a hole and not specifically (r)

Okay, sorry about that.

So to answer your question, yes 922(r) applies to you even though you are not a manufacturer or importer. The restrictions on assembly apply to any person. The exemptions to the restrictions apply to some manufacturers and importers.

But since 922(r) only applies to the "any person" who actually imports or assembles the firearm, it doesn't come into play for somebody who simply acquires or owns a particular firearm and who isn't the one who altered it into the non-importable configuration.