View Full Version : Disgurntled Oregon man- Link with update

03-18-2010, 9:15 AM
More info and discussion here


Still sound kind of outrageous.

Is that disgruntled or disGUNtled?

03-18-2010, 10:12 AM
I thought what was mentioned in the article. If they took him in for a psych eval and he was the only one in the house at the time......why did they need to seize his guns at that point? Why not wait for the results of the eval before seizing someone's property w/o a warrant or and PC to support such an action.

He is lucky he was in OR and was able to retrieve his guns fairly quickly. If it was in CA, even though they had been illegally seized it would have taken him a couple of months and some $$$$s to get them back.

03-18-2010, 10:27 AM
So an OR LEO can have someone commited to a mental health facility for evaluation with no pc. That ain't right.

03-18-2010, 10:27 AM
So an OR LEO can have someone commited to a mental health facility for evaluation with no pc. That ain't right.

They can do it in CA too.

03-18-2010, 2:07 PM
HOLLY CR@P! I was willing to give LE the benefit of doubt (having not heard the whole story). After reading this, I believe he needs to get the best darn lawyer he can afford. All of the LE angencies involved should be held accountable for this illegal kidnapping and seizure of private property. No criminal charge against him should be the same as an admission of guilt by the police. Some people should be losing their jobs over this!

03-18-2010, 2:28 PM
what amazes me, from only reading the story is that the police didn't try to make any other contact with him to try and determine the validity of the claims made against him.

So what.....now anyone can call the cops and claim they think you're about to snap and they're just gonna roll out a multiagency SWAT team to your front door and "suggest you voluntarily surrender" yourself? Then after that they're gonna toss your house and take your stuff with no warrant and no indication of any criminal activity?

Fantastic! Just Fan-friggin'-tastic!

Just for the record, I'm no opposed to LEAs taking proper steps to try and prevent someone from goin' off the edge if they have prior warning. But I would expect at least a little investigation to be done ahead of time, assuming it's not an immediate/exigent circumstance, before they roll out the SWAT team on yuh.

03-18-2010, 2:34 PM
"They woke me up with a phone call at about 5:50 in the morning," Pyles told me in a phone interview Friday. "I looked out the window and saw the SWAT team pointing their guns at my house. The officer on the phone told me to turn myself in. I told them I would, on three conditions: I would not be handcuffed. I would not be taken off my property. And I would not be forced to get a mental health evaluation. He agreed. The second I stepped outside, they jumped me. Then they handcuffed me, took me off my property, and took me to get a mental health evaluation."

So here's your "ammo" for the next time a cop wants to search your stuff and asks you if you don't trust him. Of course not, you guys lie just like anybody else! Would be tempting, except it's just better to say "I do not consent to a search of my person or property"

03-18-2010, 4:13 PM
Wow. Well at least he will get a FAT check from Oregon. Maybe being put on leave and being disgruntled turned out to be better for him financially.

03-18-2010, 10:10 PM
I wonder if they'll take threats upon women with restraining orders against ex spouses/boyfriends to the same length.

Scott Connors
03-19-2010, 2:21 AM
They can do it in CA too.

I worked at a county psychiatric health facility and have undergone 5150 training, so I've quite a bit of experience with this topic. The officer or mental health professional writing is required to explain how the detained individual came to their attention, and what specific behavior they have witnessed that indicates the detainee may be a danger to themselves or others (suicidal threats, cutting, OD, hanging around certain rather impressive bridges of which NorCal has more than a few, making threats, tracking cars with a laser scope, practicing beheading infidels with a machete in the neighbor's back yard [happened!]), or is gravely disabled (nable to provide or make use of food, clothing, and shelter), and that this behavior is due to mental illness . A detaining officer may use information reported to them by someone else, but that person is criminally for providing false information if it doesn't check out. However, the officer is not liable if he is acting in good faith.

Having said that, I have seen some 5150s that were so poorly written that only the detainee's general disorganization kept them from being laughed out. Also, in county facilities at least, patients aren't kept any longer than absolutely necessary. There were several gunnies that have crossed my professional path who did not display any clinical indications of being a danger to self/danger to others, and whose story of events sounded plausible (especially to someone who knows how these events can be blown w-a-a-y out of proportion) that I talked the docs into cutting loose before lunch, and told them how to get their guns back.

If you ever find yourself the subject of a 5150, here's my advice: cooperate with the admission but don't volunteer information, same as with a police interview. Do the same with the psychiatrist. If they want to medicate you, ask for a printout on the drug, paying attention to side effects and adverse reactions. Go to groups (that sort of participation makes it difficult to show that you're resisting treatment). You should be released at the end of the 72 hours or earlier; this does not create a federal disability to firearm ownership, and the 5 year disability in California law can be removed by petitioning the court ("Yes, they kept me for observation but determined there was no reason to continue").

If they hit you with a 5250 (additional 14 days), then you have trouble. There is a hearing before an administrative officer. There's no lawyers, although the patient right's advocate will assist you, and where I worked they were pretty aggressive in making sure the staff can demonstrate probable cause (refused medication without reason [that's why find out about side effects], isolated from staff and patients, refused to attend groups; if you're pacing the hallways talking to Jesus, plan on staying awhile). I've seen really @#$%ed up patients be released because they could hold their crap together long enough to show they weren't a danger to anyone at that moment, and could formulate a credible plan for self-care. If you lose, well--that's bad. Since there was a due process hearing, you've just been adjudicated mentally defective, just like it saws on the ATFE form, and you can kiss your toys good-bye.

All is not black, though. You can still petition for a writ of habeas corpus. This gets you before a real judge, and you get a lawyer, either your own or a public defender. If the writ is granted and you are released, the previous adjudication is nullified as far as the feds go, but it will make petitioning to have the five year California disability lifted more difficult.