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jdberger
03-17-2010, 12:23 AM
I'm starting this thread to give the folks who came to the Emeryville City Council meeting a forum to discuss their impressions, ideas where we went wrong, where we were successful and what we can do in the future to improve.

Obviously, I'll go first.

First, as I pulled up to City Hall, I noticed that there were a couple police cruisers outside. Though they'd left after I parked, I had a feeling that there was going to be a police presence at the meeting. I advised a couple Calgunners of the fact and I left my EDC knife in the car.

The building is pretty neat. A mix of modern and antique. Glass and stucco. Old wood and polished steel. It fits the city well.

I was met outside by about 4 NRA MC guys and Eugene. Calgunners and NRA MC folks started to filter in.

Folks inside were very nice. A couple of women showed us where to go (later I learned they were in the opposition). The clerk was thorough and pleasant. She explained (repeatedly) the format for the evening.

As we sat for a little bit, the room began to fill up. I gave up my seat to an elderly lady as did a couple other Calgunners. I'd stashed the maps in the corner so they wouldn't get damaged.

The City Council came in and pretty promptly removed the items from the consent agenda. After attending the OCC meeting and dealing with the indifference of their Council, I was pretty floored. I was starting to like Emeryville.

A number of us gathered in the hall to chat quietly when we were interrupted by some guy with a gin-blossom nose and a beer advertisement t-shirt. He was as loud, challenging and obnoxious in real life as he was in text. He was also as uneducated. Despite my earlier invitations, he still hadn't read Heller, the arguments for McDonald nor Cruikshank. Simply put, he was a troll.

Unfortunately, some of us felt the need to feed the troll - so much that the Chief of Police asked us to keep it down.

By this time there was a pretty substantial police presence. There were two at each entrance of the Council Chambers (eventually 3), a sergeant downstairs and a woman in plainclothes. When I asked if they were there for us, they were initially coy but then fessed up. One of the officers confirmed that the troll was a regular City Council attendee (like what's-his-name in Oakland).

We were informed that our 5 minutes was to be reduced to 1 and that time was not transferrable. All of a sudden I had to condense my 6 minute presentation to one minute. I decided to abandon the maps and focus on how LCAV was intentionally misleading the Council for their own benefit.

As people began to speak, I was suprised at the number of local residents who were opposed. Emeryville has an active and engaged citizenry. I was impressed, too.

Unfortunately, they were factually wrong about everything. They seemed to believe that the ordinance would require NICS background checks for gun buyers (and that current Federal law didn't). They thought that without this ordinance, an FFL on San Pablo Avenue would be handing out AWs to high school kids. They thought that gun stores were magnets for crime. They equated gun stores with "crime from Oakland" - which pretty much validated my racism theory. One lady even claimed that there were 15 gun stores within 15 miles of Emeryville. When I invited her to take a quick look at my map - she insisted that she'd "looked it up" and was right. When I asked if she'd used the ATF's FFL database, she spat that ATF was part of the gun lobby, and that I was clearly a gun lobby lawyer, too. She smelled of alcohol. Next time, maybe she'll get some gum.

The CGN folks were dominant at the end of the session. In all, I think that we did a pretty good job.

LCAV attorneys were smart, had their talking points down and had clearly divided responsibilities with regards to comments. I think that they knew that the speaking time was going to be reduced.

As mentioned above, I went after LCAV. I don't think that I made any friends. The Mayor kept glancing over at them while I was speaking. I don't know if the City Attorney was paying attention. The Chief of Police was. He was visibly unhappy.

(more)

jdberger
03-17-2010, 12:23 AM
As far as other speakers were concerned, I didn't hear them all. I was in the hall. There were cops at the door and I didn't want to crowd them.

At the close of comments the City Attorney took the LCAV line regarding "municipalities allowed local regulations". He cited a bunch of cases which were provided by LCAV - but neglected to mention that they were all decided BEFORE Heller, Nordyke and McDonald. However, he did seem amenable to removing the ammo restrictions.

At the end, the ECC decided to amend the ordinance. They had redlined copies available for us which omitted the ammunition restrictions (I think that they're convinced of the viability of AB962). The LCAV folks were visibly unhappy.

At the close, Mr. Troll came to demand that we all wear American Flag pins, clearly we weren't patriots if we didn't, etc. Again, some of us chose to engage him.
I suggested that we retire to Rudy's Can't Fail Cafe, which was across the street. I was then confronted by some skinny bald guy (orange tie - Obeygiant got a screenshot) who insisted that GreenDay would be angry if we ate there. :rolleyes:

On the way out, Troll continued to engage us. Outside the Chief escorted the LCAV attorneys to their car. I was a little miffed that he didn't offer to escort me. After all, I was carrying maps, papers, etc.... Maybe they were simply prettier. Or maybe they said that they felt threatened.... (my guess). Outside, there were Calgunners who were in a heated discussion with a woman who'd opposed us.

I kept on trucking to Rudy's.

A couple of pics of the aftermath....

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/jdberger/ECC%203-16-10/DSC00919.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/jdberger/DSC00921.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/jdberger/DSC00923.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/jdberger/DSC00922.jpg

Davidoff
03-17-2010, 12:29 AM
Posted in another thread:

I was given an unfriendly finger by at least two antis, and was in the group outside the chamber that was confronted directly by BD. The Police Chief came over and sternly advised us to pipe up. We then proceeded to ignore BD until he got bored of looking over JD's shoulder and left.

I was one of the first people outside after the vote, and was confronted by a older man in bicycle gear and a bright yellow jacket, who said he had served in the Swedish army, and that if we wanted guns we should go to Afghanistan. I told him that I had been to Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, and I'd rather be there without a gun than in Oakland without a gun. At least in Bagram we had a secure perimeter with heavily armed Security Forces, but in Oakland I'm on my own. He said that having a gun is childish, so I told him we'd have to agree to disagree. He scoffed and walked away.

A couple minutes later Berto and I were approached by a young couple who asked us where we were from. We told him, and he said thanks. Berto asked why he wanted to know, and he said something to the effect of: "I was just wondering where you people are coming from and why you're getting involved in Emeryville issues." We tried to explain it to him, but he obviously didn't want to hear it since he walked away towards the Swede, giving us the finger (for no apparent reason).

Farid and I had a interesting conversation with a lady outside, who admitted to owning a rifle, but was against what she called "proliferation". She was surprised when we told her that we didn't work for anybody, and that even though many of us are NRA members, nobody was there in any official capacity. I hope Farid gets to take her to the range, she actually seemed interested in going. She tried to raise her voice a few times, I'm not sure what her goal with that was, but we were able to keep cool and speak to her logically and respectfully. JD must have walked by us during an early point in the conversation.

I was somewhat surprised that the antis managed to muster up their troops, but as others have posted I think most of it is due to BD's inflammatory rhetoric. Let's let his influence die: I will remove any place I posted his full name, please consider doing the same. We don't need Calguns to be the first result when his name is Googled.

Purple K
03-17-2010, 12:39 AM
The blogger troll was doing everything he could think of to bait us into responding to him, trying to incite a disturbance in the hallway. We didn't take the bait!

vrand
03-17-2010, 12:46 AM
The blogger troll was doing everything he could think of to bait us into responding to him, trying to incite a disturbance in the hallway. We didn't take the bait!

:thumbsup:

jdberger
03-17-2010, 12:49 AM
So - in keeping with the original intention of this thread, I'll cover where we went wrong, where we were successful and what we can do in the future to improve.

What we did wrong and where we can improve.

We don't have a plan. We now know that we're going to be time restricted. Usually we've about 10 different points plus refutations that should be expressed. We need to focus, assign responsibilities and respond in an organized way.

If I take the "FFLs don't cause crime" tack, someone else should cover the "LCAV is using you like a human minesweeper" tack, etc.

Further, instead of feeding the trolls, we should ignore the trolls. TURN YOUR BACK. Let him yell at your back. Ignore him/them. Don't get sucked into emotional conversations. We can't win those. We don't need to.

Moderate your tone. This council (unlike the last one) was interested in what we had to say. Show some respect. Show manners. Be polite.

Show up. I'm with Drickel on this one. We've tons of CGNers in the East Bay. Some came from San Jose. Some from the Peninsula. If you have time to post on CGN - you have time to get involved. Personally, most of these ordinances don't effect me. I've an 03 and COE. I have residences in NV and AZ. I reload my own ammo. I also have a pretty busy job, a wife that likes attention, kids and a 3 legged dog. I'm showing up - so should you. It's YOUR rights I'm fighting for. Get involved.

What we did right

We showed up. Well, lots of us did - and that was pretty special.

We had decent talking points. We overlapped a bit, missed some areas I'd like covered, but over all we were well dressed, articulate and polite.

We were respectful. for the most part. I don't think that hamming for photos behind the Bradys is particularly helpful during a meeting, though.

an that's all for now.

More in the AM.

oaklander
03-17-2010, 12:50 AM
I must say, this was a weird experience. All around.

I do not think that the anti's who showed up at the meeting represent Emeryville in any significant fashion. I talked to several "normal" residents at the local "diner" afterward, and they all agreed with me that the Emeryville ordinances were a stupid idea. I think what we were seeing was literally the "lunatic fringe."

I think that some of us were initially shocked and dismayed by the troll's blatant attempt to start a commotion, but cooler heads prevailed, and he ended up sitting down and shutting up like a good little boy.

Of interest, I took my dog Blanca with me and we hung out on the steps before the meeting. She is very friendly and wanted to greet everyone. I noticed that the anti-gunners, to a person, gave her a wide berth.

The pro-gunners went right up to her.

What I sensed from the anti-gunners was a feeling of extreme fear:

1) fear of out-of-towners
2) fear of guns
3) fear of crime/Oakland
4) fear of "scary looking" dogs

When we went over to the diner afterward, I took Blanca with me to meet everyone after dinner, and we ended up interacting with about 20 different "regular" Emeryville people. They all loved Blanca and wanted to pet her.

I know this is not very scientific, but it is interesting nonetheless.

thedrickel
03-17-2010, 12:54 AM
One minute and no ceding time is going to be SOP.

oaklander
03-17-2010, 12:56 AM
I see the problem now! Blanca's eyes were glowing in the dark! That's what scared them!

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y32/jdberger/DSC00922.jpg

odysseus
03-17-2010, 1:00 AM
What I sensed from the anti-gunners was a feeling of extreme fear:

1) fear of out-of-towners
2) fear of guns
3) fear of crime/Oakland
4) fear of scary looking dogs


You see what is interesting to that is this doesn't represent Emeryville-ites as I have known them. NON of those points would be something to someone from Emeryville. I do realize the dynamics of the demographs of that city has changed a bit in the last decade.

I knew Emeryville as a teen. I worked at a few industrial type operations some time ago in an area off of the Oaks club which is all paved over now with the super mall and Ikea. I had my adventures through there as well with locals, bands, and the alternative scene as well. Greenday? Exodus would wipe Greenday (out of Rockridge) off their boot back in the day. Emeryville people were largely more gun owning types, well acclimated to living by Oakland and the adventures found on San Pablo Rd too. "Scary" dogs are not scary to the people of Emeryville I knew. Has it changed that much? Or is it carpet baggers who are antis?

oaklander
03-17-2010, 1:03 AM
Yes, this is the lunatic fringe. I've been going to Emerville for YEARS, and the people I have met have been hard working types. These people that were there tonight do not represent the Emeryville that I know.

Sad.

ETA: Exodus rocks. I listen to them when I drive.

You see what is interesting to that is this doesn't represent Emeryville-ites as I have known them. NON of those points would be something someone

I knew Emeryville as a teen. I worked at a few industrial type operations some time ago in an area off of the Oaks club which is all paved over with the super mall and Ikea. I had my adventures through there as well with locals, bands, and the alternative scene as well. Greenday? Exodus would wipe Greenday (out of Rockridge) off their boot back in the day. Emeryville people were largely more gun owning types, well acclimated to living by Oakland and the adventures found on San Pablo Rd too. "Scary" dogs are not scary to the people of Emeryville I knew. Has it changed that much? Or is it carpet baggers who are antis?

vrand
03-17-2010, 1:04 AM
I must say, this was a weird experience. All around.

I do not think that the anti's who showed up at the meeting represent Emeryville in any significant fashion. I talked to several "normal" residents at the local "diner" afterward, and they all agreed with me that the Emeryville ordinances were a stupid idea. I think what we were seeing was literally the "lunatic fringe."

I think that some of us were initially shocked and dismayed by the troll's blatant attempt to start a commotion, but cooler heads prevailed, and he ended up sitting down and shutting up like a good little boy.

Of interest, I took my dog Blanca with me and we hung out on the steps before the meeting. She is very friendly and wanted to greet everyone. I noticed that the anti-gunners, to a person, gave her a wide berth.

The pro-gunners went right up to her.

What I sensed from the anti-gunners was a feeling of extreme fear:

1) fear of out-of-towners
2) fear of guns
3) fear of crime/Oakland
4) fear of scary looking dogs

When we went over to the diner afterward, I took Blanca with me to meet everyone after dinner, and we ended up interacting with about 20 different "regular" Emeryville people. They all loved Blanca and wanted to pet her.

I know this is not very scientific, but it is interesting nonetheless.

:thumbsup:

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principle difference between a dog and a man.
- Mark Twain

oaklander
03-17-2010, 1:09 AM
Blanca is getting very good at telling nice people from mean people. If she sees someone smiling, she will wag her tail and want to get petted.

If she sees someone who is walking stiffly, not smiling, and staring at her, she will tense up.

She is a lot like humans in that way!!!

;)

ETA: before I forget, since it's so late, and I have been up now almost 24 hours - I just wanted to give a BIG THANK YOU to everyone who showed up tonight. Despite some very rude people, we conducted ourselves with dignity, and I really think that our efforts paid off. Emeryville is not out of the woods yet, but at least their litigation bill will be smaller now!!!


:thumbsup:

If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principle difference between a dog and a man.
- Mark Twain

oaklander
03-17-2010, 1:21 AM
Also - I wanted to add my own analysis to the After Action Review:

1) We should have had MANY more people there. I know this was short notice, and I think we had a good turnout - but we should have had a GREAT turnout. We therefore need to work on ways to get the word out, or something? Ideas are welcome. . .

2) This is my fault - I did not coordinate what people were going to say. I was sick over the weekend, and simply did not do the footwork that needed to be done. Next time, we will coordinate our speakers better.

3) We need to be impervious to attempts to disrupt us. Again, given the situation, I think we did fine. But we could do better. I am not going to go into details, since the troll does not need more free PR from us.

4) We needed to coordinate this a little tighter with The Right People. I was in contact with certain people on a regular basis, but there are some other people that I should have contacted as well.

That being said, given the short notice, we definitely made an impression, and like I said, Emeryville will now have a slightly smaller legal bill.

I think we are getting this down, and given the fact that we are completely grass-roots, we did pretty well. But we can do better. And we will!!!!

edsel6502
03-17-2010, 1:25 AM
I agree with JD.

We need the following

1. More people to show up
2. A plan around speaking points. ie. we basically KNOW what LCAV and Brady are going to say, we need to prep ahead of time to rebutt or do a pre-emptive answer to what the LCAV/Brady is going to say.
3. More people need to show up
4. See points 1. and 3.

Heck, as JD mentioned... I too have no skin in the game.. I'm not a citizen (yet) but I was there with my spiffy purple tie.

Please turn up the next time. It won't hurt you but it will hurt them..

PS. You don't need the spiffy purple tie.

CCWFacts
03-17-2010, 1:27 AM
Yes, this is the lunatic fringe.

I'm sorry to say, the Bay Area is sort of like the dregs of the United States where every leftist lunatic in the country finally goes there to fester.

http://www.zombietime.com/how_berkeley_can_you_be/135-3574_IMG.JPG

They're lunatics but they are enough of them that they form a constituency, and result in the election of professional progressives and poverty pimps like Chris Daly and Mayor Dellums.

In fact there is an entire wonderful website with many photo galleries of these human wrecks in the Bay Area (http://zombietime.com/). When they are put in photo gallery form, you can see they're just borderline-functional mentally ill people, and you might even feel a faint whiff of pity for them. (Nah, me neither!)

They have the benefit of living at the public expense (welfare, homeless stipends, disability) so they have plenty of time to show up at city council meetings and protests. Conservatives usually don't have as much free time.

oaklander
03-17-2010, 1:29 AM
ALSO - I need someone to email me a color scan of the redlined version. It is for The Right People. Pls PM me for my email address.

oaklander
03-17-2010, 1:34 AM
The interesting thing that is happening now is that the people in the middle, and on the right, and the libertarians, and the pro-gun liberals, have finally discovered how to use the internet to organize.

The pro-gun movement used to be conducted via phone, fax, and paper newsletter.

It is now conducted via email, real time chat, discussion forums, facebook, twitter, etc. . .

Even though we can't show up for daytime events (since we have jobs), we can show up for Council Meetings and stuff like that.

They're lunatics but they are enough of them that they form a constituency, and result in the election of professional progressives and poverty pimps like Chris Daly and Mayor Dellums.

Davidoff
03-17-2010, 1:35 AM
Well said JD.

I came in expecting to cede my time, so I was thoroughly unprepared. I managed to form a relatively coherent 45 seconds, but I will do better next time. A message coordination thread would be good.

I made my way down from Vacaville, and I was disappointed that we had less people than we had in Oakland. Did we lose some folks because of the result in Oakland? Was it too far from BART? I'll drive the Calguns Transit van if that's what it takes, I'll just need a van :p




So - in keeping with the original intention of this thread, I'll cover where we went wrong, where we were successful and what we can do in the future to improve.

What we did wrong and where we can improve.

We don't have a plan. We now know that we're going to be time restricted. Usually we've about 10 different points plus refutations that should be expressed. We need to focus, assign responsibilities and respond in an organized way.

If I take the "FFLs don't cause crime" tack, someone else should cover the "LCAV is using you like a human minesweeper" tack, etc.

Further, instead of feeding the trolls, we should ignore the trolls. TURN YOUR BACK. Let him yell at your back. Ignore him/them. Don't get sucked into emotional conversations. We can't win those. We don't need to.

Moderate your tone. This council (unlike the last one) was interested in what we had to say. Show some respect. Show manners. Be polite.

Show up. I'm with Drickel on this one. We've tons of CGNers in the East Bay. Some came from San Jose. Some from the Peninsula. If you have time to post on CGN - you have time to get involved. Personally, most of these ordinances don't effect me. I've an 03 and COE. I have residences in NV and AZ. I reload my own ammo. I also have a pretty busy job, a wife that likes attention, kids and a 3 legged dog. I'm showing up - so should you. It's YOUR rights I'm fighting for. Get involved.

What we did right

We showed up. Well, lots of us did - and that was pretty special.

We had decent talking points. We overlapped a bit, missed some areas I'd like covered, but over all we were well dressed, articulate and polite.

We were respectful. for the most part. I don't think that hamming for photos behind the Bradys is particularly helpful during a meeting, though.

an that's all for now.

More in the AM.

oaklander
03-17-2010, 1:51 AM
Yes, I think this was an intensely hard meeting to crack!

What we had against us that we did not have in Oakland:

1) hostile and rude people on the other side of the issue
2) a decent turnout of people on the other side of the issue
3) inability to cede time
4) inability to speak in the order that we desired
5) police at every doorway

However, we need to remember that we actually had a partial victory here! So let's not be too hard on ourselves. The City Council proved that they were risk averse and modified the law accordingly. This is a much better result than we had in Oakland. So, even though in Oakland "we did everything right," our RESULT in Emeryville was actually BETTER, even though we missed the mark on some stuff.

oaklander
03-17-2010, 2:26 AM
Also - I am currently talking with some people about planning for next steps. Some (or much) of this planning will take place in a private forum, since we now know that Troll/Brady/LCAV are watching these threads.

Details to come.

Remember, this is not over. . .

:43:

D.T. Rouland
03-17-2010, 2:56 AM
Being thoroughly disappointed that I've missed this AND Oakland's meeting despite living relatively close by, I've vowed to make it to the next one even if I have to take the night off work. I apologize for not showing the support I've felt up to this point.

My question is this: While I've been on these boards for some years, I don't post much due to others being able to put what I'm thinking much better than I can. So seeing as how I don't have the clout that say Oaklander, Bweise, or JDberger (first names to come to mind, no offense meant!), how can I make the most of my presence there? In this situation where I couldn't cede my time, should I bother filling out a comment card? Is my physical presence enough to contribute?

Maybe if the organizing minds behind these could meet and fill out index cards with prepared statements, we could pass them to the next in line to create a flowing argument?

I'd really like to help in any way possible. Please keep us informed and thank you for all the work everyone's done.

Electricboy
03-17-2010, 5:12 AM
Sorry i was not there, but i have been sick since friday. My voice is barely a wisper and it appears i could not have given my time away.

It also sounds like i may have been removed from the room once a coughing spell hit.

Asmodai
03-17-2010, 5:28 AM
Thank you to everyone that attended. Being from SoCal, obviously not my municipality, but certainly pertinent to my overall 2A rights. I appreciate all the work many people on Calguns like yourselves do to stop the encroachment of these idiotic ordinances. They just encourage other cities and counties to do the same sort of stuff.

Expect your speaking time to always be reduced, it's a way to limit debate and disorient people who have prepared a speech. And expect LEOs as it is also a form of intimidation and a way to curb free speech.

Thanks again! :thumbsup:

jdberger
03-17-2010, 8:04 AM
My question is this: While I've been on these boards for some years, I don't post much due to others being able to put what I'm thinking much better than I can. So seeing as how I don't have the clout that say Oaklander, Bweise, or JDberger (first names to come to mind, no offense meant!), how can I make the most of my presence there? In this situation where I couldn't cede my time, should I bother filling out a comment card? Is my physical presence enough to contribute?

Clout? I sure don't have any clout. I'm just a guy, a citizen who cares enough to get involved. There's really nothing to it - just put one foot in front of the other.

Honestly, before speaking publicly, I panic. It scares the livin' crap out of me. But I do it because this thing - this thing of ours is worth winning.

Maybe if the organizing minds behind these could meet and fill out index cards with prepared statements, we could pass them to the next in line to create a flowing argument?

I like this. I think it would work. We can even do it right here on CGN in the open. Folks will take the issue that speaks to them and we can help them develop it.

SJgunguy24
03-17-2010, 8:40 AM
Good write up JD. I was still in Morgan Hill around 6 and there was no way I was gonna make it to Emeryville on BART and VTA in an hour.

D.T. yes your presence there is huge. We all need to make it to these meetings and get involved. Everybody has something to contribute, you might say the same thing that another person does. But the way you said it could grab one of those city counsel members and wake them up.

At the Oakland meeting JD mentioned the if they passed that law. His boy would not be allowed to walk into a sporting goods store to buy a basketball. Just because they sold ammo or even scopes. If that doesn't seem insane then I don't know what is. I know it's hard to deal with anti's and their emotion based arguments, but that's who we're fighting.
They would rather cower in fear and send some doped up minion to do their dirty work instead of manning up. At least we can say we don't need that element, we can fight our own fight.
Unfortunatly what we are fighting for is supposed to be protected, but too many seem to forget everything after the first amendment.

oaklander
03-17-2010, 8:41 AM
Like what JD said - it's not hard. I just presented them with about 280 pages of documents (the federal and state laws regulating gun sales). I asked that they be entered into the official record. Spoke for about 45 seconds.

Being thoroughly disappointed that I've missed this AND Oakland's meeting despite living relatively close by, I've vowed to make it to the next one even if I have to take the night off work. I apologize for not showing the support I've felt up to this point.

My question is this: While I've been on these boards for some years, I don't post much due to others being able to put what I'm thinking much better than I can. So seeing as how I don't have the clout that say Oaklander, Bweise, or JDberger (first names to come to mind, no offense meant!), how can I make the most of my presence there? In this situation where I couldn't cede my time, should I bother filling out a comment card? Is my physical presence enough to contribute?

Maybe if the organizing minds behind these could meet and fill out index cards with prepared statements, we could pass them to the next in line to create a flowing argument?

I'd really like to help in any way possible. Please keep us informed and thank you for all the work everyone's done.

The Shadow
03-17-2010, 9:12 AM
Has anyone taken a good look at Emeryville, beyond the politics? Reading about them, I'm getting the impression that they are taking on a Disney-ish kind of persona.

I was looking at the demographics of the city, they only have a population of a little over 10,000. Median income is only around $45,000, Pixar (owned by Disney) is just a block or two from the City Hall, and they have a free transit service. As I was looking at the map, I thought I was looking at a map from Disneyland. Emeryvilleland?

Theseus
03-17-2010, 9:29 AM
Although I can see why we do, but I don't believe we should spend our time on each and every city that might plan to do something like this. I almost believe this to be a strategy of the LCAV to take our time and efforts. . . but in the same breath I can't think of a better way to get the masses here motivated.

If I was in a better financial situation I would be to every single event that didn't clash with another.

As for getting everything prepared, get several people to learn their parts of the speech/presentation and rotate them out based on the location/date/purpose. I am not the best, but I am decent at graphic design enough to design flyers, etc. Anyone let me know what I can do.

QuarterBoreGunner
03-17-2010, 9:32 AM
Well heck, if I'd known you were going to Rudy's I would have told the wife to take BART! It was FRIED CHICKEN NIGHT!

Seriously I feel bad, since I live about 3 miles from Emeryville City Hall, but it sounds like you guys made your presence known and that's so very important.

jdberger
03-17-2010, 9:53 AM
Well heck, if I'd known you were going to Rudy's I would have told the wife to take BART! It was FRIED CHICKEN NIGHT!

Seriously I feel bad, since I live about 3 miles from Emeryville City Hall, but it sounds like you guys made your presence known and that's so very important.

It was Fried Chicken night. Edsel ordered it. He was insisting that it was the food of his people.

I was going to ask for a teeny bit, but when I looked over his plate was bare.

Dr. Peter Venkman
03-17-2010, 10:02 AM
Berto gets my vote for best hair.

edsel6502
03-17-2010, 11:28 AM
It was Fried Chicken night. Edsel ordered it. He was insisting that it was the food of his people.

I was going to ask for a teeny bit, but when I looked over his plate was bare.

Sorry man.

You snooze you lose.

You're damn right its the food of my peoples.

Kentucky, Hubei Province, West China. Represent.

QuarterBoreGunner
03-17-2010, 11:29 AM
^word.

navyinrwanda
03-17-2010, 1:12 PM
As mentioned before, we pretty much know what our opposition will say at these events. Also, we will likely always be limited to one minute per person of speaking time and unable to control the order in which individuals speak. Lastly, it will always be difficult to predict exactly who may be able to attend any particular event.

So... how about compiling a set of "key points" where each one can be covered in about a minute or less? Each "key point" should be able to be covered in a minute or less. Then for each "key point," write 3-4 "talking notes" that would assist a speaker during their minute at the podium. Finally, print a series of index cards with each key point and associated talking notes, and hand them out to each speaker.

This would help insure that 1) each speaker makes a different point; 2) most or all pertinent points would be covered; 3) each point would be covered efficiently; and 4) individuals would be comfortable attending and speaking knowing that they had notes to speak from.

GuyW
03-17-2010, 1:14 PM
Didn't listen to the Hearing, wasn't present. But I've been in lots of Hearings and heard (and analyzed) a lot of presentations.

Typical mistake #1: Just presenting your view.

If you know the opposition's talking points, you need to rebut each one of them. You can even rebut hypothetical garbage just to be safe...

A prototypical plan of presentation:

* Tell 'em what you're go to tell 'em;
* Tell them;
* Tell them what you told them.

A group effort can look something like:

1. Speaker A tells them what you are corporately going to say;
2. Speaker B tells them one item of the corporate view;
3. Speaker C ditto;
.
. Speaker F (?) ditto;
. Speaker G(?) rebuts one point of the opponents' garbage;
. Speaker H - ?? ditto
.
.
.Speaker Z wraps it all together by telling them what you all just said...

End result? Deciders for our side have political cover by having had all the points presented and rebutted in public hearing, and the other side's Deciders have nowhere to hide...

.

putput
03-17-2010, 1:21 PM
It would definately make for a united front if the next person just continued from where the last left off mid sentence if need be...

So everyone has the outline and points and if they pay attention then on their turn they'd be ready to go regardless of order when called.

Heck, even I could do that...

Probably best to end with "vote Yah/Nay" as appropriate for each speaker...


As mentioned before, we pretty much know what our opposition will say at these events. Also, we will likely always be limited to one minute per person of speaking time and unable to control the order in which individuals speak. Lastly, it will always be difficult to predict exactly who may be able to attend any particular event.

So... how about compiling a set of "key points" where each one can be covered in about a minute or less? Each "key point" should be able to be covered in a minute or less. Then for each "key point," write 3-4 "talking notes" that would assist a speaker during their minute at the podium. Finally, print a series of index cards with each key point and associated talking notes, and hand them out to each speaker.

This would help insure that 1) each speaker makes a different point; 2) most or all pertinent points would be covered; 3) each point would be covered efficiently; and 4) individuals would be comfortable attending and speaking knowing that they had notes to speak from.

berto
03-17-2010, 2:05 PM
We did well and the partial win shows what's possible when dealing with rational people willing to listen.

Moving forward we should assume our speaking time will be limited to one minute and prepare short remarks. I like the idea of having note cards for each of our points that we can hand to the next speaker. It will make sure we hit our points.

We need to recognize that we're playing against a stacked deck. The other side is the home team and has help from the inside whether from an elected official, a staffer, or the chief of police. Letters from our lawyers, our emails, and our discussions here telegraph our moves to an extent. That said, our discussions here are important and bring more gunowners to the fight by making them aware of the stakes. Keeping the freewheeling debate that goes on here is vital but a less public and monitored forum is necessary to keep prying eyes from learning our complete playbook.

We need more people to show up. We need more people to show up. It's only a couple hours and it makes a difference. It might not make a difference in the final vote or outcome that night but it helps the perception of gunowners when a large and diverse group of us shows up and disproves the stereotypical image that the antis seek to use against us. We need more people to show up.

Fighting the same battle over the same ordinance in city after city is a hassle but dropping the fight shouldn't be an option. Every ordinance that passes is another city LCAV gets to check off and use to sell their brand of common sense. It's much harder for LCAV to explain why X number of cities voted against their proposed ordinances or didn't even introduce them than it is for LCAV to show up and say X number of similar cities have adopted this and so should you. It takes time and effort for us to fight in this manner but we aren't going to win by being lazy. LCAV should have to work to get their nonsense passed.

We need to be proactive. JD mentioned it last night and it's a great idea. We're here, we're ready, and we're not going away.

I'll continue to lend my great hair to the cause.

thedrickel
03-17-2010, 2:25 PM
I loved the "we are trying to obtain a measure of consistency with gun regulations across the 101 bay area governments" line . . . umm . . . hello . . . . so far you have THREE out of 101 !

oaklander
03-17-2010, 2:35 PM
FTW

:43:

I'll continue to lend my great hair to the cause.

BusBoy
03-17-2010, 2:43 PM
As mentioned before, we pretty much know what our opposition will say at these events. Also, we will likely always be limited to one minute per person of speaking time and unable to control the order in which individuals speak. Lastly, it will always be difficult to predict exactly who may be able to attend any particular event.

So... how about compiling a set of "key points" where each one can be covered in about a minute or less? Each "key point" should be able to be covered in a minute or less. Then for each "key point," write 3-4 "talking notes" that would assist a speaker during their minute at the podium. Finally, print a series of index cards with each key point and associated talking notes, and hand them out to each speaker.

This would help insure that 1) each speaker makes a different point; 2) most or all pertinent points would be covered; 3) each point would be covered efficiently; and 4) individuals would be comfortable attending and speaking knowing that they had notes to speak from.

+10 I was about to write the same exact thing... record what the opposition uses and use it against them in the next meeting as described above. Then just hand them out to folks as you hear the arguments come in from the Anti's. "x amount of gun stores within the city?" Heres the card with the facts... next... "more likely to be shot with your own gun?" Heres your card and so on... wash, rinse, repeat.

wash
03-17-2010, 3:45 PM
I know that JD gets very nervous every time he speaks in public. That's fairly normal.

I know I get anxious but not quite to the same extent.

For me, every time I speak in front of a crowd it gets easier. I've spoken to crowds perhaps 10 times in my life and I can tell you the difference between speaking in San Mateo a couple months ago and speaking in Emeryville was big. It got a lot easier.

I also volunteer at the calguns booth for Cow Palace gun shows. I think that helps, talking one on one or to small groups of strangers. The friendly crowd makes it easy to focus on your message rather than trying to avoid talking in to a trap.

So get out there everybody. Eventually you'll be able to speak to any group.

On another note, every time I ask for speaking points, usually we aren't that organized. This last time was bad because the order that we were called in seemed very random. I felt very lucky because I got to follow the three LCAV speakers and directly talk about them. I was comfortable enough to do that off the top of my head. I also felt comfortable enough to keep track of what had already been said and no go over the same ground twice (for the most part).

We packed the house but I think we might have made a tactical error by engaging that blogger before the meeting. They knew we were showing up and probably dragged out every anti they could muster. They admitted to reading calguns.net too.

We can still do better. You don't need "clout", you don't need to be a good public speaker (you'll get better), you don't need to wear a suit (as long as you're presentable), you just need to show up and get involved.

Calguns foundation won an award for being the best grassroots gun rights organization in the country. Getting out there is the grass roots part of it.

rkt88edmo
03-17-2010, 4:07 PM
Easy peasy spankin easy guide to public speaking (as taught by public speaking instructors and toastmasters)

1. Tell them what you are going to tell them
2. Tell them
3. Tell them what you've told them

1-Tonight I'd like to say a few words about why the LCAV is full of BS including issues 1,2,3 and why this ordinance should not be passed.
2-{insert specific points regarding issues 1,2,3 that you are trying to make here]
3-Tonight I have told you three reasons why LCAV is full of BS and why this ordinance should not be passed.


Most people just stand up and do #2

Including 1 and 3 reinforces your points and adds quite a bit of polish. It is simple and mechanical but it works and if you watch most good speakers you will see them doing it. Extraordinary speakers may do something more slick.

Since you got to see the well planned concise LCAV argument, it would be good to reverse engineer it into easy to do speaker cards. I'd be willing to help with that post 4/20 or so.

Beginner step #2 - gaining audience attention by opening with a quote or joke...


But if you plan to speak at an event and can do 1 and 3 you will be surprised at the difference it makes.

CCWFacts
03-17-2010, 4:25 PM
One thing I've seen done at some CC meetings, where they don't let people pool their time, is that one group will write a speech. Lets say they have 25 people there, and each person will get 1 minute to speak. They will write a 25 (or maybe 20) minute speech, give everyone a copy, and it will be a sequential reading effort. I've heard it done very smoothly where speakers will hand off to each other in a "relay" with little or no interruption.

The advantage is you get to make a very coherent point with more depth. Also, you show the other side, we're organized and work as a team. 25 very well coordinated and organized people are a lot more effective than 25 people all doing their own thing.

The disadvantage is it takes work to write the speech and get everything organized. But I'm sure there are good writers here who would like to help, but can't attend the meeting, and could help by writing a speech instead.

Just an idea...

jdberger
03-17-2010, 4:30 PM
I'm honestly thinking that for the next one I'll put on a quick puppet show.

If the Quaker lady can sing, I can have puppets.

madmike
03-17-2010, 4:54 PM
I'm honestly thinking that for the next one I'll put on a quick puppet show.

If the Quaker lady can sing, I can have puppets.

There's a great idea to get buts in the seats!

-madmike..

Davidoff
03-17-2010, 5:22 PM
I'm honestly thinking that for the next one I'll put on a quick puppet show.

If the Quaker lady can sing, I can have puppets.


Just as long as you can resist the temptation to use the LCAV puppets as targets.:43: (Disclaimer: I mean actual puppets, not uninformed people who are figurative puppets)

sbrady@Michel&Associates
03-17-2010, 5:57 PM
I'm honestly thinking that for the next one I'll put on a quick puppet show.

If the Quaker lady can sing, I can have puppets.

Well, Mr. Berger, looks like you will be able to reunite with the singing Quaker and conduct your puppet show in Emeryville relatively soon:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=280945

or

www.calgunlaws.com

RP1911
03-17-2010, 7:16 PM
Don't shoot the messenger. I suggest watching the video of your performances.

This is a critique of what I watched:

Use the microphone. I could barely hear a couple of you.

Stay polite. Couple of comments should not have been made.

Don't ramble - read from a script if you have to.

Start off with I am opposing this ordinance and end it with the same and ask for a no vote.

----

Librarian
03-17-2010, 7:34 PM
Education time: go read http://www.pbs.org/standarddeviantstv/transcript_public.html.

If we're going to create the Calguns Speakers Bureau, we need some good, simple advice.

One item: "The average rate of speech is about 125-150 words per minute, but rate, like pitch, can really skyrocket if you get nervous."

1 minute segments, 125 words... we have to break the argument down that finely.

Here are 127 words to practice: When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
Here are 147 - the next 147 - for the upper limit of a minute: That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

obeygiant
03-17-2010, 8:06 PM
I'm honestly thinking that for the next one I'll put on a quick puppet show.

If the Quaker lady can sing, I can have puppets.

Did you just mention the Quaker Lady?

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/8035/singingquaker.jpg

jdberger
03-17-2010, 9:31 PM
Do we have video of this? I'd like to review what Robyn Thomas and the rest of the LCAV folks said.

TripleXGuns
03-17-2010, 10:10 PM
I looked on their archived videos and it doesnt look like it's posted yet. Where are you guys grabbing these shots?

RP1911
03-17-2010, 10:18 PM
Archived videos:

http://www.ci.emeryville.ca.us/Media/

yesterday's is not up yet as posted above.

jdberger
03-17-2010, 10:39 PM
I looked on their archived videos and it doesnt look like it's posted yet. Where are you guys grabbing these shots?

You've just been tickled by the awesomeness of obeygiant.

neuron
03-17-2010, 11:13 PM
Wow. Had I known about this meeting I would have attended. I live about 6 blocks from the Emeryville City Hall. I'd love to have a gun shop open for business here. I've been in the area for over 35 years, and E-ville has changed a lot. E-ville is in the middle of a hyper-Liberal socialist enclave (Berkeley and Oakland) and it has often made good business-friendly economic decisions, such that Ikea and Pixar have taken up residence here rather than in nearby Berkeley and Oakland, and E-Ville has managed to nurture housing and business developers (the Bay Street complex and a slew of fine condos, townhouses and appartments), whereas Oakland and Berkeley have stagnated. When Jerry Brown was mayor of Oakland he touted his plan to build 10K "elegant" housing units and bring new business to Downtown Oakland. Never materialized, mainly due to the hidebound and stubborn socialist stupidity of the Oakland City Council. E-Ville did lots of good things quietly, pragmatically, and without the empty hype of Jerry Brown and the horse and pony show politicking of the Oakland City Council.

Allowing a gun shop to open in E-Ville would be an economically great idea, but the City Council needs to be convinced of this. Unfortunately, there is a lot of vocal knee-jerk anti gun sentiment in the area. I'll bet that most of the folks who presented this sentiment don't even live in E-Ville, but come from Berkeley, Oakland, and who-knows-where-else. :(

Davidoff
03-17-2010, 11:18 PM
neuron:

You might get another chance. See the thread below.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=280945